Denver Legalizes

[DesignerGal]

I have been listening to talk radio this morning and they are discussing the Marijuana issue in Denver. WHat do you guys think?

Should it be legalized and regulated like alcohol?

I'm interested in LadyCop's views on this: if its legalized, what effect do you think it will have on crime rate? car accident death rates? Any other issues?

[SOJOURNER]

This is considered a gateway drug. They say it leads to other and more harmful drug usage. To legalize it might help their business.

I think an overall better idea would be to allow it as a prescription for those whos pain might be minimized by its usage.

[abbey]

I am so sorry to break the thread but why do you have a pic of Bothwell as your Av?:-2

[DesignerGal]

Concerning the "Gateway Theory". I have heard the following argument, and I have to tell you, I think it makes sense:

Teens smoke marijuana and their parents/teachers, etc tell them its a gateway drug and in my opinion, it isnt even close when comparing side effects, addiction, etc to say, meth, cocaine, or ecstasy. So, when we tell them it is just as bad as these stronger drugs and they end up doing it, and its no big deal, they think, "Well, they said marijuana was bad and it wasnt so cocaine, crack, and meth must not be as bad either. They are probably just scaring us". THen thats where it starts. I think marijuana (although Im not a user of ANY drug, I hardly take tylenol unless I have to) is not like the rest of illegal substances. I think smoking cigarettes is worse.

[DesignerGal]

abbey wrote: I am so sorry to break the thread but why do you have a pic of Bothwell as your Av?:-2


Because he's hot.

[lady cop]

DesignerGal wrote: Because he's hot.hey!!

[DesignerGal]

lady cop wrote: hey!!


What?!?!?! What'd I do?

[lady cop]

i have mixed feelings about legalization. i know all the arguments pro and con, but i still see it as an agent for driving impaired. just like alcohol. as to crime, crack is the root of 85% of crime i see, not grass.

[lady cop]

DesignerGal wrote: What?!?!?! What'd I do?you must be the only person on this forum who doesn't know Both is my fiance! :wah:

[OpenMind]

Death is highest among cigarette smokers, then alcohol, then drugs. This is for UK.

Cannabis is stronger now than it used to be because a lot of it is grown under (ideal) conditions by the users. furthermore, the most beneficial ingredient (medically and recreationally) has been obliterated by the processes by which it is now produced. This ingredient is extremely important for its contribution to mental relaxation and removing the tendency for violence. For adults, the stronger product is not a problem except that, like alcohol, it impairs judgement for driving. However, in children, (who get it whether it's legalised or not), it physically alters the brain which is still growing. The brain continues to grow until about the age of 30 but is inhibited by the new more powerful form of cannabis.

Since tobacco and alcohol are legal and are more dangerous, it is a hypocrisy that cannabis is illegal. In any amount, it is less dangerous than the tobacco it is mixed with. Neither is it physically addictive although a person may develop a psychological addiction to it.

Likewise, it has been proven that pure heroin is not only harmless but is a great healer. It is the crap it is mixed with by the black marketeers that kills.

So far, our governments have kept the public in the dark so that they can use it for their political campaigns. In this sense, they are aiding and abetting the black market for their own purposes.

On the other hand, if parents had proper knowledge of these drugs, they would be able to make an informed decision and they would be able to honestly instruct their children.

After a century, it has proven impossible to curb recreational drug use. If someone is destined to become a drug addict, no laws are going to stop them. On the other hand, perhaps if the public had access to proper information, there might be more children saved from addiction. It is particularly because they have to use the black market to obtain cannabis that they gain access to more lethal and addictive drugs.

[Facidaisy]

DesignerGal wrote: Concerning the "Gateway Theory". I have heard the following argument, and I have to tell you, I think it makes sense:

Teens smoke marijuana and their parents/teachers, etc tell them its a gateway drug and in my opinion, it isnt even close when comparing side effects, addiction, etc to say, meth, cocaine, or ecstasy. So, when we tell them it is just as bad as these stronger drugs and they end up doing it, and its no big deal, they think, "Well, they said marijuana was bad and it wasnt so cocaine, crack, and meth must not be as bad either. They are probably just scaring us". THen thats where it starts. I think marijuana (although Im not a user of ANY drug, I hardly take tylenol unless I have to) is not like the rest of illegal substances. I think smoking cigarettes is worse.


Sorry I had to quote all just to get that last little bit.

I don't think cigarettes are worse as they don't alter you mind like marijauna or any drugs or alchohol, and don't harm emotionally, friends and family i.e the smoker is still normal after a smoke of tobacco

(unless we get ito the passive smoking argument)

I think on the whole cannibas can lead to harder drugs too but saying that for people who have certain types of pain I think it should'nt be frowned on if its smoked on the quiet without any harm to anyone else.

In the UK they have downgraded it so its not such a criminal offence but boy have we got a bad drug problem in this country these days.

[DesignerGal]

lady cop wrote: you must be the only person on this forum who doesn't know Both is my fiance! :wah:


Well...good to know and congrats...Just one thing. Ive never actually seen him...it was intended to be a funny answer to the funny question about him being the picture under my username.

[lady cop]

DesignerGal wrote: Well...good to know and congrats...Just one thing. Ive never actually seen him...it was intended to be a funny answer to the funny question about him being the picture under my username.i know, it just gave me a giggle. (he used to use that avatar).

[DesignerGal]

Facidaisy wrote:

I don't think cigarettes are worse as they don't alter you mind like marijauna or any drugs or alchohol, and don't harm emotionally, friends and family i.e the smoker is still normal after a smoke of tobacco




I mean medically speaking. People usually dont develop some types of lung and oral cancers and breathing problems by using marijuana as they would smoking cigarettes.

[DesignerGal]

Far Rider wrote: How many innocent people will be killed by cannibis imparied drivers if its legalized, how many innocent people are killed everyyear by alcohol imparied drivers? theres the talking point. Why do we always skip past the fact that there is a large part of the population that can't handle it and will KILL others because they can't. The argument goes on about choice and legality, not stopping murderers.


I dont know the answer to that question. I absolutley agree that alcohol related deaths are high and can be prevented, and I agree that legalizing pot/weed/whatever would just add to this problem of senseless deaths of innocent people because in America (land of the Gluttons) we have a hard time controlling ourselves (although some don't).

Not everyone is like me, or apparently you, where we can drink alcohol and get wasted and still know better not to drive. I wont drive after ONE drink because Im small and Im still legally drunk and dont want to spend the night in jail or pay a fine. If I dont have a designated driver with me when I go out, then I have a couple of numbers for cab drivers in my pocket! I dont want to wake up one morning and walk to the mailbox and see a corpse on my windsheild, or be reponsible for hurting ANYONE.

[Facidaisy]

Far Rider wrote: How many innocent people will be killed by cannibis imparied drivers if its legalized, how many innocent people are killed everyyear by alcohol imparied drivers? theres the talking point. Why do we always skip past the fact that there is a large part of the population that can't handle it and will KILL others because they can't. The argument goes on about choice and legality, not stopping murderers.


I agree with all of the above and it comes down to the fact that the world has gone bonkers.

Uk has droppped its licensing laws so you gan get drunk 24 hours a day here soon and at the same time they are banning smoking from pubs and restaurants...........makes sense ????

The Police are stretched to the limit now with underfunding etc. now there will be more alcohol related crime, road traffic accidents etc etc. and they haven't got anything which will test for drugs.

I am a baa humbug over Christmas too so want to jump on your band wagon CANCEL IT! YAY

[OpenMind]

Far Rider wrote: How many innocent people will be killed by cannibis imparied drivers if its legalized, how many innocent people are killed everyyear by alcohol imparied drivers? theres the talking point. Why do we always skip past the fact that there is a large part of the population that can't handle it and will KILL others because they can't. The argument goes on about choice and legality, not stopping murderers.


Does the law actually prevent this?

[Galbally]

Interesting one this. From my own experiences this is what I would do.

Legalize grass, while putting more resources legal measures and whatever else is required to minimize (cause thats all you can ever do) all the rest. That's not that I think that smoking grass is a particularly good way to spend your time or that its harmless, it isn't, but neither are drinking or smoking either. Smoking is a disaster for anyone's health and I don't need to underline the dangers of abusing alcohol. As for all the harder drugs, in terms of their long term effect on people and consequently on society it just wouldn't be ethically responsible to decriminalize them. I don't know enough about ectasy to have a proper opinion on it, but I would err on the side of caution on any substatance that has a psychological effect on people.

[Valerie100]

I'm sorry. I don't want it to be legalized.

Did you ever take a step back and really look at a drug addict, especially, when they're high -- be it marijuanna or something else? Did you ever really look at the way they talk and act? Do we really want this to be a normal, legal situation of people running around mentally floating in the clouds somewhere? Do you want your kids to growup thinking that it's normal and okay to be that way?

[Jives]

Thank you, Valerie. You put it very succinctly. Drugged-up behavior is not normal, nor should it be. Sure I know that the pressures of 21st century living are unbelievable, but getting high and drunk doesn't help to deal with them, you just think it does.

And Far, just what are you proposing with your "Anti-Alcohol" tirade? Get rid of all alcohol and drugs in our society? That's been tried before, it was called, "Prohibition." It was a dismal failure. so has been the "War on Drugs."

Let's be realistic. Pot has been around for three thousand years, alcohol millenia longer than that. It hasn't destroyed society yet, we are stronger and smarter than ever. Someone was right on the beam when they said that those who want to get high or drunk will, no matter what. So let them. Cutting them off will just lead to bathtub stills and basement farms, or worse yet, organized crime-syndicate operations.

Meanwhile, let's take the same approach that we are using on the war against smoking. Curtail the acceptability with ordinances, educate the public with massive media blitzes, and make it socially unacceptable.

We need smarter people, not dumber laws.

[Jives]

Far Rider wrote: Well on the subject of my tirade... Why was it deemed a dismal failure?


FarRider! You know this answer. Prohibition was deemed a failure because organized crime skyrocketed to the point where many big cities were literally run by gangs, and alcohol became more prevalent than ever! Why... the SpeakEasies NEVER CLOSED! At least we have some degree of control now. Then there was none!

And I say that if we still had prohibition there would be far less alcohol available and far less innocent deaths.


But it didn't work out that way, Remember the "Valentine's Day Massacre"?

Wish I could prove that with stats but Im unable to, cause theres no stats for comparison.


Alcohol Prohibition Was A Failure

by Mark Thornton

Mark Thornton is the O. P. Alford III Assistant Professor of Economics at Auburn University.

Although consumption of alcohol fell at the beginning of Prohibition, it subsequently increased. Alcohol became more dangerous to consume; crime increased and became "organized"; the court and prison systems were stretched to the breaking point; and corruption of public officials was rampant. No measurable gains were made in productivity or reduced absenteeism. Prohibition removed a significant source of tax revenue and greatly increased government spending. It led many drinkers to switch to opium, marijuana, patent medicines, cocaine, and other dangerous substances that they would have been unlikely to encounter in the absence of Prohibition. Those results are documented from a variety of sources, most of which, ironically, are the work of supporters of Prohibition--most economists and social scientists supported it. Their findings make the case against Prohibition that much stronger.[2]

If your Local Indian reservation didnt have ANY alcohol available to them wouldnt that be better?


Far, when the local Native Americans can't get anything to drink, they drink HAIRSPRAY!....so no, that wouldn't be better.

My point is we give up to easy, and we aren't as hard on the crimials as we should be no matter what the crime. We still dont do enough to protect the innocent.


Now here's where we agree...i was just thinking this as I was reading about a man getting busted for his 15th DWI today. They could only charge him for his 4th, because the others weren't documented enough. Pffft.

I agree with you BTW I realize theres no going back to prohibition now. But why get another easily abused susbstance started? And your last line, Brilliant!


Actually, I have to agree with you, sure it's not "that bad" but...it's bad. Smoking causes cancer, hands down. So I guess I'm with you on the pot issue, Far.

[Jives]

Far Rider wrote: Somewhere along the line we have to get real tough on people. But nobody wants to start.An example: Singapores canning incident of the grafitti kid? To Harsh? I don't think so, I doubt he will ever graffiti in singapore again, even if he lived there for the rest of his life!


lol. NOW you and I are on the same beam. I read somewhere that they have the lowest incidence of graffitti in the world.

[gmc]

posted by open mind

On the other hand, if parents had proper knowledge of these drugs, they would be able to make an informed decision and they would be able to honestly instruct their children.

After a century, it has proven impossible to curb recreational drug use. If someone is destined to become a drug addict, no laws are going to stop them. On the other hand, perhaps if the public had access to proper information, there might be more children saved from addiction. It is particularly because they have to use the black market to obtain cannabis that they gain access to more lethal and addictive drugs.


Actually it used to be quite fashionable to smoke opium-especially in victorian times amongst those wealthy enough to afford it. Have a read of sherlock Holmes what do you think was in the pipe, it was fashionable thing to do. It's only post ww1 it bagan to be seen as a problem. (I'm talking about the UK The US I don't know enough about) The poor had their gin palaces.

I must admit a certain ambivalance. I personally know two individuals that have ended up with full blown psychosis the doctors reckon was triggered by cannibis use. As a student I saw people destroy themselves with hard drugs not so much opiates as hallucinogenics-seeing someone have a bad trip would stop enyone from experimenting. Anecdotally i knew of one guy who flew out an open window, except he was on the seventh floor and couldn't actually fly.

I never felt the urge to experiment despite peer pressure since i knew about the possible consequences I could never understand the appeal. I could decide whether I was happy or not and control my own moods.

On the other hand I do drink, not to excess, can't pretend I never have (I hate hangovers) and never before driving. Why is being a drunkard socially acceptable O.K. and smoking a occassional joint not? GW used to be a drunkard, if he was an ex junkie would you consider him fit to be president?

Personally I would legalise cannabis and control it's distribution, tax it, and try and make sure people understand what hard drugs can do.

Attitudes towards drugs are very hypocritical, alcohol is a mind altering drug and so is nocotine (sure I read somewhere it was more addictive than heroin).

You can't enforce a law if most think it unreasonable, in part that's what happened with prohibition. Law abiding people went to speak easy's because they thought the law unreasonable.

posted by far rider

When parents fail to teach and train their children to conform to socities basic laws it becomes the states responisbility to make them conform. If not we have a lawless society... like what we see today in a lot of areas.


Should it then be up to the state to legislate to tell people how to live thir lives? If people want to take drugs in the pivacy of their own and keep it their, why should you (or the state) have the right to tell them they can't. O.K there are obviously areas where the state and society should take hand (child abuse etc) but if they do not harm others why insist they conform to what you think is right. Kind of thought you were a believer in civil liberty:sneaky:

We need a tongue in cheek smiley.

[Accountable]

I'm tired of my tax dollars being spent to protect adults from themselves. Somewhere along the way we lost focus. We should rather focus on protecting the public, and allowing adults to be responsible for themselves.



I say expand the alcohol abuse laws to include any judgment-altering substance and legalize & regulate all recreational drugs. (BTW, no I don't/won't use any but alcohol).



Most areas have laws against public drunkeness, driving under the influence, etc. Stiffen the punishments to make them "real" and they can work against public drug use.



Banning a substance does not get rid of it; it only relinquishes control to the black market.



Let's let adults be adults - free to choose - and hold them accountable to their own actions - responsible for the choice.

[Accountable]

SnoozeControl wrote: I think marijuana and prostitution should both be legalized. That way they'll both be more closely monitored with quality assurance and medical monitoring instituted respectively. The money the government would expend on this would more than be made up by the taxes the users of each would be required to pay.
Hear Hear!



or is it Here Here?



Whatever

:yh_clap

[Galbally]

Part of me thinks we should just legalize all matters of personal choice, like drugs, prostitution etc, allow people to do whatever they want to do with their own lives, however idiotic, and of course come down on them like a ton of bricks if they say rob someone to get a fix or drive drunk or summit, but then again.

Its might be alright for mature adults to make decisions like this, but what about more vunerable members of society, teenagers, marginalized people, star trek fans etc. Also, and particularly in the case of the harder drugs, these substances are addictive and destory a person's ability to make sensible choices, then there all the other people that are involved in an individual's life, what if they're lives are destroyed by a loved one's selfish behaviour? I don't see how a thoughtful government could really countenance opening that sort of Pandora's box. We do all have a right to personal freedom, but I don't think that its an absolute right with no responsibilities.

[Jives]

Galbally wrote: Its might be alright for mature adults to make decisions like this, but what about more vunerable members of society, teenagers, marginalized people, star trek fans etc..


There you go, Galbally! That's a post of substance, and a nice change from your usual one-liners! Pretty darn funny too, I might add!

Here's something I've been thinking about that is never brought up in these discussions...

People who are stoned are supremely unmotivated. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a stoner get up off a couch and go do some Calculus problems?

For that matter....when was the last time you saw a stoner get up off a couch?

Do we really want our entire population stoned and happy? What will happen to the drive, the ambition? What will happen to our country in the worldwide marketplace?

Could this be a preview of the future:

Chinese Banker: "We now control most of South America and are actively buying up the Dark Side of the Moon.

Indian CEO: Our industries are poised to begin mining there, it's just a matter of mass-producing our new Ion-drive engines.

Chinese Banker: "Have the Americans given you an answer on transfer of ownership of the Moon?"

Indian CEO: "No, but I'm not worried, everyone knows they are a bunch of Balkanized, stoned has-beens. If we need to, we'll move without their permission. They can't do anything about it anymore."

[DesignerGal]

Far Rider wrote: By GMC

homosexual activity and the spread of aides...




AIDS is highest in straight black females. But thats another thread altogether.

[Galbally]

[QUOTE=Jives]There you go, Galbally! That's a post of substance, and a nice change from your usual one-liners! Pretty darn funny too, I might add!

Here's something I've been thinking about that is never brought up in these discussions...

People who are stoned are supremely unmotivated. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a stoner get up off a couch and go do some Calculus problems?

For that matter....when was the last time you saw a stoner get up off a couch?



Thank you jive's I can be serious when I feel like it, which it not very often normally, except when it comes to science.

And yes it is completely impossible to get stoned and attempt any differential calculus, I know I have tried. Actually I'm quite relaxed about marajania being legalized, though I couldn't be bothered taking it, cause it definitely does make you a bit dopey after a while and laugh at things that are not actually very funny. Anyway this debate will rumble on and on, one of the reasons that I don't get into producing big posts about my serious ideas regarding life is that I think that most people who subscribe to forums are already fairly sure of their convictions, and its a bit pointless just declaiming your principals to people who don't share your values. Then again, it can be fun sometimes getting a rise out of people.

[Galbally]

DesignerGal wrote: AIDS is highest in straight black females. But thats another thread altogether.


Don't go there girl.

[DesignerGal]

Galbally wrote: Don't go there girl.


Hey, Im just simply stating the facts on some statistics, and let me add, that is here in the United States, as for statistics of your or any other country Im not so sure.

[Galbally]

DesignerGal wrote: Hey, Im just simply stating the facts on some statistics, and let me add, that is here in the United States, as for statistics of your or any other country Im not so sure.


I'm sure your right, but you know what happens to threads like that.

[DesignerGal]

Im moving on to something lighter. Im not a pothead, and I dont care what Denver does, because I dont live there. All those people who want to do drugs, drink, get DUI's, not wear a seatbelt, have unprotected sex, etc, go for it. Just remember that there are consequences. As for all of you posting, Ive read some really good points and Im glad I started this thread. I can see great points for and against legalizing marijuana.

Thanks for the input.

[gmc]

posted by galbally

And yes it is completely impossible to get stoned and attempt any differential calculus, I know I have tried. Actually I'm quite relaxed about marajania being legalized, though I couldn't be bothered taking it, cause it definitely does make you a bit dopey after a while and laugh at things that are not actually very funny. Anyway this debate will rumble on and on, one of the reasons that I don't get into producing big posts about my serious ideas regarding life is that I think that most people who subscribe to forums are already fairly sure of their convictions, and its a bit pointless just declaiming your principals to people who don't share your values. Then again, it can be fun sometimes getting a rise out of people.


I would disagree with you about the last point. The whole point of a forum like this, so far as I am concerned, is the chance to discuss things with people who fundamentally disagree with your world view. Sometimes you end up agreeing to disagree othertimes some abusive twit just shouts abuse because they don't like what you are saying most times you can have an intelligent discussion. It's kind of like mental circuit training, sharpens the wits.

Speaking personally I wouldn't be capable of differential calculus anyway, maybe being stoned would let me be ralaxed about being thick.

[Galbally]

gmc wrote: posted by galbally



I would disagree with you about the last point. The whole point of a forum like this, so far as I am concerned, is the chance to discuss things with people who fundamentally disagree with your world view. Sometimes you end up agreeing to disagree othertimes some abusive twit just shouts abuse because they don't like what you are saying most times you can have an intelligent discussion. It's kind of like mental circuit training, sharpens the wits.

Speaking personally I wouldn't be capable of differential calculus anyway, maybe being stoned would let me be ralaxed about being thick.


Yes, I know what you mean, but I find that 80 percent of debate is just people reiterating what they believe already. Also people will normally latch on to ideas of others only when they conform to their own world view. It is of course useful to debate things, but it can often become a very sterile exercise. Its probably why I like working in science (hence the calculus) as opinions are respected, but they don't really count for anything unless you can back them up, and not just using unsourced statistics. I find its very stimulating in an intellectual sense as you have to be prepared to entertain the most difficult concepts even if they seem completely counter-intuitive to you personally, its quite refreshing actually compared to the usual dreary arguments people engage in.

[chrisdavies15]

my veiws on legalization are that if used responsibly and monitered could be ok. i feel worse about alchol as my mother was an alcholic