Where did chinese come from?

China_Watcher
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Post by China_Watcher »

Chinese are interesting asian stating the first people with uniquely long history (5000 years old). The most common view of chinese origin is that they come from the Yangtze and Yellow river, however the recent scientific evidences suggest that they come from the south east asia, and then expand to the northern parts of china:D .

Phylogeographic Differentiation of Mitochondrial DNA in Han Chinese

Yong-Gang Yao,1 Qing-Peng Kong,1 Hans-Jürgen Bandelt,2 Toomas Kivisild,3 and Ya-Ping Zhang1

1Laboratory of Molecular Evolution and Genome Diversity, Kunming Institute of Zoology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Kunming, Yunnan, China; 2Fachbereich Mathematik, Universität Hamburg, Hamburg; 3Department of Evolutional Biology, Institute of Molecular and Cell Biology, Tartu University and Estonian Biocentre, Tartu, Estonia

Received September 20, 2001; accepted for publication December 4, 2001; electronically published February 8, 2002.

To characterize the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) variation in Han Chinese from several provinces of China, we have sequenced the two hypervariable segments of the control region and the segment spanning nucleotide positions 1017110659 of the coding region, and we have identified a number of specific coding-region mutations by direct sequencing or restriction-fragmentlengthpolymorphism tests. This allows us to define new haplogroups (clades of the mtDNA phylogeny) and to dissect the Han mtDNA pool on a phylogenetic basis, which is a prerequisite for any fine-grained phylogeographic analysis, the interpretation of ancient mtDNA, or future complete mtDNA sequencing efforts. Some of the haplogroups under study differ considerably in frequencies across different provinces. The southernmost provinces show more pronounced contrasts in their regional Han mtDNA pools than the central and northern provinces. These and other features of the geographical distribution of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Han Chinese make an initial Paleolithic colonization from south to north plausible
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Post by China_Watcher »

http://www.xasa.es/grupos/soc/thread/so ... pan/51/100

The haplotypes of Manchuria are intermediate between koreans and

northern chinese, being more like northern Han than koreans.

I expect there was some significant amount of migration of the

Jurchen with the Great Wall was extended to the north east. The

morphology and genetics of shandong changed markedly and some korean

and japanese markers could [Should] be from this region also.

-> this indicates that han pushed indiginous people in shandong to northward

The diversity of B46 haps is higher in manchuria than korea.

Koreans can be compared with Japanese, some of the haplotypes in

Koreans are missing in Japanese. These particular haplotypes are

found extensively amoung the Khalkha of mongolia, and much of the

history prior to the mongolian invasion has been lost. about 5 to 10%

are either from mongolia or manchuria and are of recent origin.

Two proximal groups, other than the Japanese have extensive

similarity with the koreans. The Orochon and the Ainu and presumbably

with more typing the indigeonous peoples of the Amur region. This

probably extended along the eastern coast into korea, however the

dynastic expansion of the han had diluted extensively the enterior of

the country. My expectation is that prior to 2800 years ago there was

no B46 in manchuria, in fact, one would be hard pressed to find it in

northern china except in the wet rice farming cultures. It also

probably did not exist on the Shandong.

Therefore in considering what is Korea today, represented by unique

haplotypes shared only between japanese(72%) and koreans one would

probably predict that this people extended into manchuria and along

the eastern coast to the amur region, and they were later compressed

by polical events that occurred to their west.

When one looks at haplotypes from asia one sees a gradient between

all the peoples from northern china to thailand to taiwan (except

aboriginals) and to parts of indonesia. Manchuria is marginally

transitional between mongols, northern han and koreans, but the

gradient steeps in slope sharply as one moved into Amur river region,

korea, mongolia and western china. Particular examples of other

compressions are in the mongolians. The haplotypes most unique to the

mongolians are not found in Native Americans, where as those in

Japanese and Ainu and other Eastern Siberians are. These unique

haplotypes are found to be similar to non-Han peoples to the south

and in Tibet.
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Post by robinseggs »

This is way above my intellectual understanding. My brain froze up while trying to read. I am interested however. Sigh......................................................................................I need a "system restore"!!!!!
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Post by Galbally »

Intersting, but very technical, I read a book on asimilar study conducted on the michocondial DNA of modern europeans and it turns that almost all modern Europeans (pop 650,000,000 approx.) are decended from seven individual women. I think the most interesting question is where did the Australian Aboriginal peoples come from, or at least how did they end in australia 40,000 years ago, apparently its a bit of a mystery.
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Post by OpenMind »

Galbally wrote: Intersting, but very technical, I read a book on asimilar study conducted on the michocondial DNA of modern europeans and it turns that almost all modern Europeans (pop 650,000,000 approx.) are decended from seven individual women. I think the most interesting question is where did the Australian Aboriginal peoples come from, or at least how did they end in australia 40,000 years ago, apparently its a bit of a mystery.
Would that be "The Seven Daughters of Eve"? I have a copy of the book myself. Very interesting it was too and full of surprises.
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Post by China_Watcher »

It's Not a Chinese World After All

Paris, Monday, July 12, 1999



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Philip Bowring International Herald Tribune.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HONG KONG - Genetics is a stirring subject for nationalists and historians. It is especially so for a China eager to underline the singularity of Chinese bloodlines and establish historical claims over neighbors. But genetic science has been dealing some rude shocks to those who like to use so-called racial identity for political purposes.

This year, scientists announced that the closest genetic relatives of New Zealand's indigenous Maori people were to be found in Taiwan. The news stunned Chinese, especially those accustomed to believe in the uniqueness of the Chinese "race" and that Taiwan has been part of China from time immemorial.

In a process which took thousands of years, the seafaring Malayo/Polynesian peoples colonized every island from Madagascar in the west to Tahiti and Hawaii in the east, and from Taiwan and southern Japan in the north to New Zealand.

They reached their southernmost destination a millennium ago, or some 400 years before Han Chinese from the mainland began to settle in Taiwan. The Hans did not become the majority until about 250 years ago.

On this Taiwan issue, genetics did not spring a surprise, although it underlines awkward facts for a Beijing government that has as much commitment to historical accuracy as Stalin's Soviet Encyclopedia did. But consider the shock to racist mythologizing of genetic mapping of groups of Chinese. The mapping is the work not of enemies eager to put down all things Chinese but of an international team of Chinese and other scientists working on a Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project.

The project suggests that the original human inhabitants of China did not originate in the Chinese heartland, on the lands drained by the Yellow River or the Yangtze. They migrated into the region from the southwest. Worse still, from a Chinese racist perspective, they originated in Africa.

That there was no specifically Chinese, or non-African, source of humankind may hardly be news elsewhere, but it is news to a China which has been pouring money into archaeological efforts to find a Chinese equivalent of the earliest African hominids.

The genome project also demonstrates the wide variations of genetic makeup within China (even excluding latterly acquired territories such as Xinjiang) and the number of common factors linking Chinese and non-Chinese in East Asia.

None of this should really come as a surprise. Body size, head shape and susceptibility to diseases have long been known to vary greatly between north and south in China. The latter people are often closer in appearance to Southeast Asians.

Many Chinese, including some race-conscious descendants of migrants to Southeast Asia, have clung to blood-based beliefs, similar to 19th century Western ones, in "superior" and "inferior" races. Such racism has percolated into laws, including those of Hong Kong, where people of ''Chinese race'' - undefined but generally interpreted as ancestry - have long been given preferential treatment regardless of their current language, culture or nationality.

Japan, of course, has harbored some of the same myths, and as a result has long confined its citizens of Korean ancestry to inferior status. Japanese genetic origins are far more diverse than the nation's cultural homogeneity would suggest.

At a time when Chinese nationalism is on the rise, genetic science will be a doing a service if it keeps Chinese identity channeled into cultural and political spheres where it belongs, rather than flirting with spurious "blood" concepts that have caused such suffering elsewhere.
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Post by chonsigirl »

I did find another theory for where the Maori come from, based on different evidence.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1998/ ... y_i9a.html

SOUTH PACIFIC

SEPTEMBER 7, 1998 NO. 36

History In Their Blood

DNA studies confirm Maori beliefs about their ancestors' origins

By SIMON ROBINSON/AUCKLAND

A battered double-hulled canoe fights through a foaming sea. A group of emaciated Polynesians lie exhausted and dying below a tattered sail. Suddenly, one man glimpses a speck of land off in the distance. Propping himself up in the prow, he points it out to the others. New Zealand's most famous painting, an 1898 work by Charles Goldie and Louis Steele called The Arrival of the Maoris in New Zealand, may be based on a European colonists' myth, but it remains a vivid reminder that, like the country's white settlers, Polynesians arrived in New Zealand from across the ocean.

But when, and from where? A new study of DNA taken from modern Maori confirms what Maori oral history has long maintained: that Polynesians from the Cook Islands area 3,000 km to New Zealand's northeast set off on deliberate voyages of discovery and found the uninhabited islands their descendants would call Aotearoa about 1,000 years ago. "Our oral history has often been criticized for being imprecise," says Professor Mason Durie, head of Maori Studies at Palmerston North's Massey University. "This is saying: Don't take our traditions too lightly."

This article suggests the SouthEast Asian area as their origin, with the possibility of Taiwan being a stepping place, but it is still a "missing link" in the migration pattern.

Using the Hardy-Weinberg Principle of Genetics the current theory you proposed in the previous post is the current one, examinig the DNA portions that contain the influence of alcohol in the body. The second strand does not exist among thesamples taken of the Maori today. It will be interesting to see what new theory emerges in the future.

There is a migration study being done by National Geographic, but it is offline this weekend, I was going to look at their data base for a response-they must be inputting some materials. There is a very good basic map of migration patterns worldwide.
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Post by gmc »

I think in the past peoples were a lot more travelled and knew of other aeas than we give them credit for. As the ice age ended there must have been a lot of settled areas that were lost-even today most settlement are along coastlines.

One thing that has always puzzled me. If the epicanthic folds and brown eyes of asian peoples are an adaptation to cope with extreme cold and bright sunlight reflecting off ice fields, how do north europeans end up with pale skin to better absorb vitamin whatever it is and blue eyes to see better in poor lighting conditions.

Living in the north I can see the point of the latter but both must have had to deal with extreme cold as well so why not blue eyes and epicanthic folds?
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Post by chonsigirl »

Oh, your picture didn't post China, try it again.
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Post by chonsigirl »

Nice journal reference.

Here is the National Geo site and project.

https://www9.nationalgeographic.com/gen ... index.html
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Post by China_Watcher »

: J Hum Genet. 2000;45(2):76-83. Related Articles, Links

Y chromosomal DNA variation in east Asian populations and its potential for inferring the peopling of Korea.

Kim W, Shin DJ, Harihara S, Kim YJ.

Department of Biology, Dankook University, Cheonan, Choong-Nam, Republic of Korea. wookkim@ansco.dankook.ac.kr

We have examined variations of five polymorphic loci (DYS287, DXYS5Y, SRY465, DYS19, and DXYS156Y) on the Y chromosome in samples from a total of 1260 males in eight ethnic groups of East Asia. We found four unique haplotypes constructed from three biallelic markers in these samples of East Asians. The Japanese population was characterized by a relatively high frequency of either the haplotype I-2b (-/Y2/T) or II-1 (+/Y1/C). These dual patterns of the distribution of Y chromosomes (I-2b/II-1) were also found in Korea, although they were present at relatively low frequencies. The haplotype II-1 was present in Northeast Asian populations (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, and Mongolians) only, except for one male from the Thai population among the Southeast Asian populations (Indonesians, Philippines, Thais, and Vietnamese). The Japanese were revealed to have the highest frequency of this haplotype (27.5%), followed by Koreans (2.9%), Mongolians (2.6%), and mainland Chinese (2.2%). In contrast, the frequency of the haplotype I-2b was found to be 17.1% in the Japanese, 9.5% in Indonesian, 6.3% in Korean, 3.8% in Vietnamese, and 2.7% in Thai samples. These findings suggested that the chromosomes of haplotype I-2b were likely derived from certain areas of Northeast Asia, the region closest to Southeast Asia. Phylogenetic analysis using the neighbor-joining tree also reflected a general distinction between Southeast and Northeast Asian populations. The phylogeny revealed a closer genetic relationship between Japanese and Koreans than to the other surveyed Asian populations. Based on the result of the dual patterns of the haplotype distribution, it is more likely that the population structure of Koreans may not have evolved from a single ancient population derived from Northeast Asians, but through dual infusions of Y chromosomes entering Korea from two different waves of East Asians.

PMID: 10721667 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Fig. 2 Distribution of Y haplogroups in east Asia. Circle area is proportional to sample size, and the nine haplogroups are represented by different colors

The distribution of Y-chromosomal variation surveyed here reveals significant genetic differences among east Asian populations. Haplogroup DE-YAP (the YAP+ allele) was present at high frequency only in the Japanese and was rare in other parts of east Asia (Table 2, Fig. 2). This result is consistent with previous findings of YAP+ chromosomes only in populations from Japan and Tibet in east Asia (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Kim et al. 2000; Tajima at al. 2002). However, haplogroup DE-YAP is also found at low frequencies in all the other northeast Asian populations sampled here (2.4% overall, excluding the Japanese; 9.6%, including the Japanese), but only in two of the southern populations (0.8% overall), suggesting that the Korean YAP+ chromosomes are unlikely to have been derived from a southeast Asian source. The prevalence of the YAP+ allele in central Asian populations suggests a genetic contribution to the east Asian populations from the northwest, probably from central Asia (Altheide and Hammer 1997; Jin and Su 2000; Karafet et al. 2001).

Haplogroups C-RPS4Y711 and K-M9 were widely but not evenly distributed in the east Asian populations. Haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 appears to be the predominant northeast Asian haplogroup, with high frequencies in Mongolians (Buryats, 37.3%; Khalkhs, 42.9%) and Manchurians (22.7%; Table 2, Fig. 2). The moderate frequency of haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 Y-chromosomes in Korea (15.0%) implies a genetic influence from northern populations of east Asia, starting possibly in east Siberia. Su and Jin (2001) suggest that the RPS4Y711-T chromosome originated in east Asia, probably in the southeast, and then expanded to the north (Siberia), based on the genetic diversity of Y-STR markers. However, the observed low Y-STR diversity of haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 chromosomes in their surveys of Siberian and central Asian populations compared with east Asian populations could also be explained by a more northern (Mongolian and/or Siberian) origin followed by genetic drift resulting from small effective population sizes (Pakendorf et al. 2002). Recently, Cavalli-Sforza and Feldman (2003) have suggested that haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 expanded both through a southern route from Africa (e.g., India) to Oceania, and a northern one to Mongolia, Siberia, and eventually to northwest America. Further genetic surveys are required to test these hypotheses, with additional markers and more samples from diverse regions of Asia.

In contrast, M9-G Y-chromosomes show an opposing distribution to those carrying RPS4Y711-T in east Asia: they are more frequent in southern populations than in northern ones, showing a clinal variation from about 90% to 60% (Table 1). The haplogroups carrying the M9-G mutation and additional sublineages of M9-G in Korea appear to be at an intermediate frequency (81.9%) between southeast and northeast Asian populations. This result implies that the Korean population may be influenced by both the northeast and southeast Asian populations. Even within haplogroup O, the most frequent Korean STR haplotype (23-10-13 with the markers DYS390-DYS391-DYS393, 19% of haplogroup O; Table 3) is the most frequent in the Philippines (27%), whereas the second most frequent Korean haplotype (24-10-12, 16%) is the most frequent in Manchuria (45%). Thus, the distribution of haplogroups K-M9 and C-RPS4Y711 may reflect dispersals from both north and south. The settlement of each region at different times needs to be considered in order to understand the peopling of east Asia. Recently, Karafet et al. (2001) have noted that realistic explanations for the peopling of east Asia have to accommodate more complex multidirectional biological and cultural influences than earlier models have allowed.



Fig. 3 Principal components (PC) analysis of haplogroup frequencies in 11 east Asian populations (circle Koreans, open diamonds southeast populations, closed diamonds northeast populations)



In this study, the Koreans appear to be most closely related overall to the Manchurians among east Asian ethnic groups (Fig. 2), although a principal components analysis of haplogroup frequencies reveals that they also cluster with populations from Yunnan and Vietnam (Fig. 3). The genetic relationship with Manchuria is consistent with the historical evidence that the Ancient Chosun, the first state-level society, was established in the region of southern Manchuria and later moved into the Pyongyang area of the northwestern Korean Peninsula. Based on archeological and anthropological data, the early Korean population possibly had a common origin in the northern regions of the Altai Mountains and Lake Baikal of southeastern Siberia (Han 1995; Choi and Rhee 2001). Recent studies of mtDNA (Kivisild et al. 2002) and the Y-chromosome (Karafet et al. 2001) have also indicated that Koreans possess lineages from both the southern and the northern haplogroup complex. In conclusion, the peopling of Korea can be seen as a complex process with an initial northern Asian settlement followed by several migrations, mostly from southern-to-northern China.
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Post by Wolverine »

Galbally wrote: Intersting, but very technical, I read a book on asimilar study conducted on the michocondial DNA of modern europeans and it turns that almost all modern Europeans (pop 650,000,000 approx.) are decended from seven individual women. I think the most interesting question is where did the Australian Aboriginal peoples come from, or at least how did they end in australia 40,000 years ago, apparently its a bit of a mystery.
Alien drop off from Mars.


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Post by China_Watcher »

Y-Chromosome Evidence of Southern Origin of the East Asian–Specific Haplogroup O3-M122

The prehistoric peopling of East Asia by modern humans remains controversial with respect to early population migrations. Here, we present a systematic sampling and genetic screening of an East Asian–specific Y-chromosome haplogroup (O3-M122) in 2,332 individuals from diverse East Asian populations. Our results indicate that the O3-M122 lineage is dominant in East Asian populations, with an average frequency of 44.3%. The microsatellite data show that the O3-M122 haplotypes in southern East Asia are more diverse than those in northern East Asia, suggesting a southern origin of the O3-M122 mutation. It was estimated that the early northward migration of the O3-M122 lineages in East Asia occurred ~25,000–30,000 years ago, consistent with the fossil records of modern humans in East Asia.

Recent Spread of a Y-Chromosomal Lineage in Northern China and Mongolia

We have identified a Y-chromosomal lineage that is unusually frequent in northeastern China and Mongolia, in which a haplotype cluster defined by 15 Y short tandem repeats was carried by 3.3% of the males sampled from East Asia. The most recent common ancestor of this lineage lived 590 ± 340 years ago (mean ± SD), and it was detected in Mongolians and six Chinese minority populations. We suggest that the lineage was spread by Qing Dynasty (16441912) nobility, who were a privileged elite sharing patrilineal descent from Giocangga (died 1582), the grandfather of Manchu leader Nurhaci, and whose documented members formed 0.4% of the minority population by the end of the dynasty.

:-5
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Post by lady cop »

my eyes!! my brain!! my pulse! my GAWD! :eek: ...sorry China, i can't help myself. i am sure this is utterly fascinating stuff. :-3
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Post by China_Watcher »

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/conte ... 19/10/1737

Free Online Journal Edition

The Emerging Limbs and Twigs of the East Asian mtDNA Tree

Toomas Kivisild*, Helle-Viivi Tolk*, Jüri Parik*, Yiming Wang, Surinder S. Papiha, Hans-Jürgen Bandelt and Richard Villems*

*Department of Evolutionary Biology, Tartu University and Estonian Biocentre, Estonia;

Department of Medical Genetics, Sun Yat-Sen University of Medical Sciences, People's Republic of China;

Department of Human Genetics, University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne;

Department of Mathematics, University of Hamburg, Germany

We determine the phylogenetic backbone of the East Asian mtDNA tree by using published complete mtDNA sequences and assessing both coding and control region variation in 69 Han individuals from southern China. This approach assists in the interpretation of published mtDNA data on East Asians based on either control region sequencing or restriction fragment length polymorphism (RFLP) typing. Our results confirm that the East Asian mtDNA pool is locally region-specific and completely covered by the two superhaplogroups M and N. The phylogenetic partitioning based on complete mtDNA sequences corroborates existing RFLP-based classification of Asian mtDNA types and supports the distinction between northern and southern populations. We describe new haplogroups M7, M8, M9, N9, and R9 and demonstrate by way of example that hierarchically subdividing the major branches of the mtDNA tree aids in recognizing the settlement processes of any particular region in appropriate time scale. This is illustrated by the characteristically southern distribution of haplogroup M7 in East Asia, whereas its daughter-groups, M7a and M7b2, specific for Japanese and Korean populations, testify to a presumably (pre-)Jomon contribution to the modern mtDNA pool of Japan.





Fig. 3.—Phylogenetic reconstruction and geographic distribution of haplogroup M7. a, A network of HVS-I haplotypes, which comprises the superposition of the most parsimonious trees for the three postulated sets of M7a, M7b, and M7c sequences. The mutations along the bold links were only analyzed for a few Japanese sequences (Ozawa et al. 1991 ; Ozawa 1995 ; Nishino et al. 1996 ) and—toward the root of M—for some Chinese sequences (this study): the corresponding individuals with (partial) coding region information are boxed. Numbers along links indicate transitions; recurrent HVS-I mutations are underlined. The age of mtDNA clades is calculated (along the tree indicated by unbroken lines) according to Forster et al. (1996) , with standard errors estimated as in Saillard et al. (2000) . Sample codes (and sources): AI—Ainu (Horai et al. 1996 ); CH—Chinese (Betty et al. 1996 ; Nishimaki et al. 1999 ; Qian et al. 2001 ; Yao et al. 2002 ; this study); IN—Indonesian (Redd and Stoneking 1999 ); JP—Japanese (Ozawa et al. 1991 ; Ozawa 1995 ; Horai et al. 1996 ; Nishino et al. 1996 ; Seo et al. 1998 ; Nishimaki et al. 1999 ); KN—Koreans (Horai et al. 1996 ; Lee et al. 1997 ; Pfeiffer et al. 1998 ); MA—Mansi (Derbeneva et al. 2002 ); MJ—Majuro (Sykes et al. 1995 ); MO—Mongolians (Kolman, Sambuughin, and Bermingham 1996 ); PH—Philippines (Sykes et al. 1995 ; Maca-Meyer 2001 ); RY—Ryukyuans (Horai et al. 1996 ); SB—Sabah (Sykes et al. 1995 ); TW—Taiwanese Han (Horai et al. 1996 ) and aboriginals (Melton et al. 1998 ); UI—Uighur (Comas et al. 1998 ; Yao et al. 2000 ); YA—Yakuts (Derenko and Shields 1997 ). b, Frequencies of the subgroups of M7 in Asian populations are inferred from the preceding HVS-I as well as partial HVS-I and RFLP data (VN—Vietnamese: Ballinger et al. 1992 ; Lum et al. 1998 ). Mainland Han Chinese are denoted as follows: GD—Guangdong, LN—Liaoning, QD—Qingdao, WH—Wuhan, XJ—Xinjiang, YU—Yunnan (Yao et al. 2002 ), SH—Shanghai (Nishimaki et al. 1999 ). The number of M7 sequences in relation to the sample size is indicated under each pie slice proportional to the M7 frequency
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Post by lady cop »

nothing bothers you does it? i give you credit for persistance. i do however, think posts like this are against the geneva convention. :wah:
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Post by China_Watcher »

lady cop wrote: nothing bothers you does it? i give you credit for persistance. i do however, think posts like this are against the geneva convention. :wah:


That is a hard request. Everybody knows genetic research has some deviations (but not grossly misleading) from the true picture. The only way to get around it is the literature bias study. Just search for the articles that state the similar things, and others contradicting them.

I posted the number of studies showing that all these evidences point out that han chinese (an ethnicity comprising 90% of total chinese population) may come from the southwest of china, or a part of south east asia, because I wanted to show that this is just not from the one source of study, but dozens of the similar study gives the similar results.

Lately, I realized that this is a highly political topic, as han chinese resent being labelled with south east asians. The topic I posted elsewhere usually end up with angry reactions of chinese posters saying that they come from silbelia, or state that they are originated along Yangtze/Yellow river, though this is a fairly recent event (5000 years at most). In contrast to this historical explanation, genetic studies span longer than, say, 10000-50000 years. :lips: However, I found them cute to naively react to the results of hard science. :D They seem to live in the past, and any dismantling of their historical myths lead to occasional flames and bunches of emotional craps, coupled with nonsense comparisons, (ie, the posting of photos which there are no ways to verify who they are from).

Although their looks show a similarity to south east and south west china, and their geographical location justifies the peopling from the south west of china or south east asia, (han) chinese continually associate themselves with korean, and japanese, who are highly successful countries on the north east asia. The studies I posted all suggest that their lineage with korean and japanese are weak, and may only account for the population who used to be originally immigrants from china.

Methodolgy to justify this has two approaches. Take some gene sequences from non-recombining (unchanging if you like, though the rule is not strict) Y-chromosomes, or use mtDNA, trying to search for the differences between the other groups of east asian. The recent study I posted all use this approach, and number of studies (more than 10!!) pointed to chinese ancestry are in the south, not in the north, as chinese nationalist claims.
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Post by covenant »

China_Watcher wrote:

Lately, I realized that this is a highly political topic, snip....

..........................It is?
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Post by ELF »

Where do Elves appear on your maps?

Maybe I don't have any DNA........................
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Post by covenant »

ELF wrote: Where do Elves appear on your maps?

Maybe I don't have any DNA........................


:D Hardly, you were created by fairy dust.....
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Post by China_Watcher »

So based on these combined four studies (with pictures), would you suggest that all the other asians are from china? It seems that some north east asian (Japan, Korea, and Mongolia and East Sibelian) came from china, but do es that mean all of them?:driving:



From the pictures, don't you think that instead of NorthEastAsian-out-of-china theory, china-out-of-nepal-thailand-vietnam are more likely?:guitarist



It may be that original inhabitants in china was wiped out by the bulge of population in the south, (aka both northern and southern han chinese), east, or west asia. Then, these inhabitants fled to korea, japan, and mongolia?:lips:
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Post by covenant »

What Is a "Race"?

There is really only one race -- the human race. The Bible states that God has "made of one blood all nations of men" (Acts 17:26). Scripture distinguishes people by tribal or national groupings, not by skin color or physical appearance. Clearly, though, there are groups of people who have certain features (e.g., skin color) in common, which distinguish them from other groups. We prefer to call these "people groups" rather than "races," to avoid the evolutionary connotations associated with the word "race."

All peoples can interbreed and produce fertile offspring. This shows that the biological differences between the "races" are not very great. In fact, the DNA differences are trivial. The DNA of any two people in the world would typically differ by just 0.2 percent.2 Of this, only 6 percent can be linked to racial categories; the rest is "within race" variation.



The variation in DNA between human individuals shows that racial differences are trivial. This genetic unity means, for instance, that white Americans, although ostensibly far removed from black Americans in phenotype, can sometimes be better tissue matches for them than are other black Americans.



Anthropologists generally classify people into a small number of main racial groups, such as the Caucasoid (European or "white"),3 the Mongoloid (which includes the Chinese, Inuit or Eskimo, and Native Americans), the Negroid (black Africans), and the Australoid (the Australian Aborigines). Within each classification, there may be many different sub-groups.

Virtually all evolutionists would now say that the various people groups did not have separate origins. That is, different people groups did not each evolve from a different group of animals. So they would agree with the biblical creationist that all people groups have come from the same original population. Of course, they believe that such groups as the Aborigines and the Chinese have had many tens of thousands of years of separation. Most believe that there are such vast differences between the groups that there had to be many years for these differences to develop.



In other words, what des it matter other then to try and disprove others rights to territories. All of humanity is one race, accept this and find peace and solice in this commonality.
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Post by China_Watcher »

covenant wrote: What Is a "Race"?

All peoples can interbreed and produce fertile offspring. This shows that the biological differences between the "races" are not very great. In fact, the DNA differences are trivial. The DNA of any two people in the world would typically differ by just 0.2 percent.2 Of this, only 6 percent can be linked to racial categories; the rest is "within race" variation.



The variation in DNA between human individuals shows that racial differences are trivial. This genetic unity means, for instance, that white Americans, although ostensibly far removed from black Americans in phenotype, can sometimes be better tissue matches for them than are other black Americans.




The first statement I agree with. But you missed the points. The sequencial differences are only pure metaphors that human is one class of species. The unknown types of proteins different groups produce are the subject of intense studies everywhere. It is known that disease susceptabilities due to these tiny fractions of differences lead to significantly variable results on the effects of the treatments.

The second statement shows that your understanding is based on the old school of genetics.

The variation in mtDNA, and Y-chromosomes can clearly find the matches between the races. It will show the route and path of peopling of certain groups of people. If you like to argue on this, you are welcome to post your sources. I am ready to make polemics out of it.

After all, did I call any groups "race"? I was not talking about races, but group of people who insists they originate from non-african sources, and state that they are closer to certain groups than some other groups. Is this really fair? Do you understand that this is a political topics as I clearly chose to post it here? Yes, this is a politics, so under the name of Bible and Holy GOD or HE if you like, we should remove the whole forum? yes?
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Post by turbonium »

I don't know where they came from, but living in Richmond, BC, I can tell you exactly where many of them ended up!! j/k
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Post by lady cop »

turbonium wrote: I don't know where they came from, but living in Richmond, BC, I can tell you exactly where many of them ended up!! j/k :wah:YOU ACTUALLY READ THIS TOME TURBO???:lips:
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Post by turbonium »

No, I didn't. I just saw the thread title and couldn't resist putting in a silly joke (and a local joke only BC'ers would get, I suppose).

Btw, LC, Hi! How are you doing, my good friend? Hope all is well.
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Post by lady cop »

i miss you...want a beer?
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Post by turbonium »

Sure, LC! Join me in the Pub!
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Post by China_Watcher »

turbonium wrote: I don't know where they came from, but living in Richmond, BC, I can tell you exactly where many of them ended up!! j/k
well I thought, in BC=British Columbia(?), chinese are well off.

anyway, this doesn't concern me much
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Post by Wolverine »

i am quite serious. the Aboriginees of the Outback were dropped off by the Martians on their way out of the solar system.


Get your mind out of the gutter - it's blocking my view

Mind like a steel trap - Rusty and Illegal in 37 states.

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Post by China_Watcher »

Wolverine wrote: i am quite serious. the Aboriginees of the Outback were dropped off by the Martians on their way out of the solar system.


Who are Martians? by the way. Are they humans?:confused:
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Post by nvalleyvee »

The Chinese came out of the dawn of mankind. My opinion is Africa. I am very sure that mankind moved out of their evolutionary birth place about 50,000 years ago and that may even be an underestimation. How can you populate a planet with our land masses as far spread as ours was 10,000 years ago? Not possible. Our ancestors were on the move thousands of years before. Heck - in the Americas there are dated civilazations at least 30,000 years old............go freaking figure.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
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Post by Wolverine »

China_Watcher wrote: Who are Martians? by the way. Are they humans?:confused:
nope. they're little, green, no body hair, tiny arms and legs, a big head, and great big eyes.

only 3 fingers.


Get your mind out of the gutter - it's blocking my view

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Post by turbonium »

Wolverine wrote: nope. they're little, green, no body hair, tiny arms and legs, a big head, and great big eyes.

only 3 fingers.


Elvis owned a few of them.....



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Post by Wolverine »

turbonium wrote: Elvis owned a few of them.....




Exactly!!:wah:


Get your mind out of the gutter - it's blocking my view

Mind like a steel trap - Rusty and Illegal in 37 states.

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Post by China_Watcher »

It is interesting how the topic could degenerate into such messes:lips:
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Post by lady cop »

China_Watcher wrote: It is interesting how the topic could degenerate into such messes:lips:perhaps because the topic is such a mind-bending crashing bore.
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Post by China_Watcher »

lady cop wrote: perhaps because the topic is such a mind-bending crashing bore.


you're right. I will post more evidences...:-5
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Post by China_Watcher »



Fig. 2. Frequency distributions of the eight Y-chromosome haplotypes for the 14 global populations, with their approximate geographic locations. The frequencies of the eight haplotypes are shown as colored pie charts (for color codes, see upper left insert). JP=Japanese, Han=Chinese

Note: I repost the smaller image with the brief explanation

Only four Japanese populations exhibited ht1 (defined only by YAP+) at various frequencies (also see Table 1). The highest frequency (87.5%) was found in JP-Ainu, followed by JP-Okinawa (55.6%) living in the southwestern islands of Japan, JP-Honshu (36.6%), and JP-Kyushu (27.9%). The ht2 haplotype (defined by YAP+/M15+) was found in only two males, one each from Thais and Thai-Khmers; ht3 (defined by YAP+/SRY4064-A) was completely absent in the Asian populations examined, whereas Jewish in the Uzbekistan and African populations had this haplotype with a frequency of 28.3% and 100%, respectively. Thus, the YAP+ lineage was found in restricted populations among Asian populations, consistent with previous reports (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Shinka et al. 1999).

The ht4 haplotype (defined only by M9-G) was widely distributed among north, east, and southeast Asian populations, except for the Ainu. This haplotype was frequent (60.5%) in overall Asian populations (Table 1). Among them, the Han Chinese and southeast Asian populations were characterized by high frequencies ranging from 81.0% to 96.0%. In contrast to ht4, ht5 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A) and ht6 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A/SRY10831-A) were small contributors to Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht5 was observed in Nivkhi (19.0%) and that of the ht6 in Thai-Khmers (10.8%). The ht5 haplotype is widely distributed among European, Asian, and Native American populations and is proposed to be one of the candidates for founder haplotypes in the Americas (Karafet et al. 1999). Furthermore, high frequencies of ht6 were observed in north Europe, central Asia, and India (Karafet et al. 1999). Thus, the presence of ht5 in Nivkhi may account for the founder effect of peopling of the Americas.

The ht7 haplotype (defined by RPS4Y-T) was also widely distributed throughout Asia with the exceptions of Malaysia and the Philippines, whereas this was absent in two non-Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht7 was found in Buryats (83.6%), followed by Nivkhi (38.1%). Thus, the geographic distribution of ht7 in Asia appears to contrast with that of ht4.

Only eight individuals (1.4%) in Asia belonged to ht8, which was the major haplotype in Jewish population (Table 1). The ht8 haplotype may not be useful for inferring population relatedness among Asian populations because it is defined by no mutations. Additional Y-polymorphic markers such as M89 and M168 (Underhill et al. 2000; Ke et al. 2001) will be needed to investigate details of the formation of modern Asian populations.
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Post by China_Watcher »

ArnoldLayne wrote: Its just gobbledygook
:rolleyes:
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Post by ELF »

Where do Elves come from?

Elves Rule, Grinches Drool!
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Post by SOJOURNER »

ELF wrote: Where do Elves come from?

Elves Rule, Grinches Drool!


Perhaps you're too young to know yet................

Attached files
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Post by ELF »

:) ...........

Elves Rule, Grinches Drool!
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Post by chonsigirl »

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Post by rudolph »

How about reindeer migration?

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Post by China_Watcher »

Now let's talk about the related population (i.e. Japanese), since this will further illustrate my points.

Japanese population can be subdivided into jomon/ainu (native islanders immigrated about 15000 years ago) and yayoi (continentals like korean and nothern chinese). By genotyped distributions, approx. 60% of japanese are of continental origin, and they are evenly distributed in the central islands. The rest are so-called the ainu/jomon.

I think on average, japanese appearances are nowhere in east asian.

My guess is due to the the distorsion introduced by jomon/ainu bloods, and their unique facial structures. I guess, there must be some japanese who could be almost deemed as chinese or korean, but there are japanese who is completely outside the chinese/korean facial features.



---------------

http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~pbrown3/brown99.pdf

The first modern East Asians ?:

another look at Upper Cave

101, Liujiang and Minatogawa 1

Peter Brown

Department of Archaeology and Palaeoanthropology

University of New England

Armidale, NSW 2351, Australia



Please note that Baoji are most related to han chinese.

MINATOGAWA 1

The Minatogawa 1 male skeleton was found in 1970 at the

Minatogawa limestone quarry on Okinawa (Suzuki and Hanihara 1982).

111

The first modern East Asians?: another look at Upper Cave 101, Liujiang and Minatogawa 1

Three female skeletons, in varying states of preservation, and assorted

other fragments were also recovered. The Minatogawa skeletons have

been described in detail in Suzuki and Hanihara (1982), with Suzuki

(1982) describing the crania. Additional comparative information can

be found in Baba and Nerasaki (1991). The Minatogawa 1 cranium is

not as complete as Liujiang and Upper Cave 101, particularly in the

basi-cranium, facial skeleton and temporal regions. Several of the

dimensions used in the analysis to follow had to be estimated.

Unlike Liujiang and Upper Cave there does not appear to have

been any concern over the reliability of the dating of Minatogawa.

Radiocarbon dates of 18,250 ±650 to 16,600 ±300 years BP were obtained

from charcoal inside the fissure (Kobayashi et al. 1974). Fluorine content

of human and non-human bones within the site suggested that they

were contemporaneous (Matsu’ura 1982). Assuming that the site was

well stratified, that the carbon dates do bracket the skeletons and that

the skeletons were not intrusive, then Minatogawa remains do have a

strong claim to being the earliest modern human skeletons in East Asia.



Overall, the scatter plot of Functions 1 and 2 indicate the relative morphological

similarity of the modern and Neolithic Chinese groups, while the

modern Japanese are closer to a wider range of East Asian and Native

American populations. Plots of the total group dispersions associated

with Figure 3 revealed the large degree of overlap between the Neolithic

and modern Chinese and between the modern Japanese, Anyang,

Hainan and Native American groups. The Eskimo and Ainu were more

distinct, as were both of the Australian Aboriginal groups.

Please note that northern and southern japanese are in the middle point between N/S chinese and ainu/jomon/minatogawa. This represents the japanese population

divided into the two completely diverged skull/facial structures.
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