How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:22 am

Generally speaking, people write or talk about the SUCCESSES, not the FAILURES. If Christ had FAILED to "make a miracle occur", would anyone have bothered to describe that failure? I doubt it very much as there's little of interest or worth in it. The same way as the runner-up in a competition receives far less publicity usually than the winner.

In my mind, Frodo, I have little doubt that Jesus existed, and was able, through whatever means, to perform some amazing feats of medicine AND wisdom, but I suspect no-one would have been bothered to report " I was there and nothing happened ," it's just not "interesting" enough as news, or worthy of writing as a testament.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:53 am

Can you imagine someone like David Blaine or David Copperfield in Jesus' time?

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:40 pm

FourPart;1480933 wrote: Can you imagine someone like David Blaine or David Copperfield in Jesus' time?

Surely you jest,sir!:wah:

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:47 pm

Smaug;1480950 wrote: Surely you jest,sir!:wah:

Not at all. These days we are familiar with the art of the illusionist. The very term defines that much - it's an illusion & not real. However, such things as Magic Tricks are nothing new, but in a time when people believed everything they saw (or thought they saw), the person performing such tricks would be regarded as having supernatural powers & elevated to the status of a God. We're all familiar with the principle of the snake oil shows in travelling fairs. A random person is picked out of the audience & is miraculously cured of all ills by the application of some magical elixir. Sound familiar?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:02 pm

Smaug;1480883 wrote: In my mind, Frodo, I have little doubt that Jesus existed,Would you mind sharing what has you convinced?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:57 am

Ahso!;1481040 wrote: Would you mind sharing what has you convinced?
His crucifixion, at least, is recorded. There are countless people in the Bible that there is no question of their having existed. As regards to his being some supernatural son of an imaginary deity - that's an entirely different matter.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:57 am

Ahso!;1481040 wrote: Would you mind sharing what has you convinced?

To many historical references for him NOT to have existed! Are you a "holocaust denier", by any chance?

Just to inform you, I am a Pagan and have no particular "axe to grind" on this subject.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:00 am

FourPart;1481036 wrote: Not at all. These days we are familiar with the art of the illusionist. The very term defines that much - it's an illusion & not real. However, such things as Magic Tricks are nothing new, but in a time when people believed everything they saw (or thought they saw), the person performing such tricks would be regarded as having supernatural powers & elevated to the status of a God. We're all familiar with the principle of the snake oil shows in travelling fairs. A random person is picked out of the audience & is miraculously cured of all ills by the application of some magical elixir. Sound familiar?

It does indeed! How "random" is that person? The very definition of "Toadie"!

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:11 am

Smaug;1481083 wrote: To many historical references for him NOT to have existed! Are you a "holocaust denier", by any chance?

Just to inform you, I am a Pagan and have no particular "axe to grind" on this subject.One need not have an ax to grind to engage in a discussion on the validity of whether or not a person actually was who others claim. You said you had little doubt and I asked why.

Mind sharing the "to[o] many historical references" that's convinced you?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:16 am

FourPart;1481047 wrote: His crucifixion, at least, is recorded. There are countless people in the Bible that there is no question of their having existed. As regards to his being some supernatural son of an imaginary deity - that's an entirely different matter.Would you mind showing me where his crucifixion is recorded? I don't there were any Roman records of it.

To my knowledge all biblical writings are many many years after Jesus supposedly existed, they contain no eye-witnesses at all AFAIK. I'm otherwise open to learning of some verifiable recording.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:24 am

Ahso!;1481087 wrote: One need not have an ax to grind to engage in a discussion on the validity of whether or not a person actually was who others claim. You said you had little doubt and I asked why.

Mind sharing the "to[o] many historical references" that's convinced you?

As I said, too many historical (Biblical, Quran) references. In Islam , he is referred to also (Jesu). Not sure if that's spelt right, but that's how Muslims that I know pronounce it. I'm sure FrodoBaggins can give you chapter-and-verse on this. He's the "go-to" man for religious stuff on Jesus.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:30 am

Smaug;1481090 wrote: As I said, too many historical (Biblical, Quran) references. In Islam , he is referred to also (Jesu). Not sure if that's spelt right, but that's how Muslims that I know pronounce it. I'm sure FrodoBaggins can give you chapter-and-verse on this. He's the "go-to" man for religious stuff on Jesus.The bible and Quran are not considered reliable historical accounts of much, especially Jesus. Nice swerve away from actual history to religious reference, too bad you got nicked.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:49 am

Ahso!;1481092 wrote: The bible and Quran are not considered reliable historical accounts of much, especially Jesus. Nice swerve away from actual history to religious reference, too bad you got nicked.

Considered unreliable by whom? Is that YOUR opinion, or are you voicing someone else's?

You could try Roman tax/population records, or ancient Jewish records. Pontius Pilate was supposed to have ordered his (Jesus's) crucifiction, alongside Barabas. There must be records of this somewhere.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:03 am

Smaug;1481095 wrote: Considered unreliable by whom? Is that YOUR opinion, or are you voicing someone else's?

You could try Roman tax/population records, or ancient Jewish records. Pontius Pilate was supposed to have ordered his (Jesus's) crucifiction, alongside Barabas. There must be records of this somewhere.Nobody's found any.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:12 am

Ahso!;1481096 wrote: Nobody's found any.

Maybe we've been looking in the wrong places. The absence of something doesn't prove it's non-existence. We don't see any Brontosarus's around these days, but fossil records prove they existed. If we had found no fossil evidence, we would PRESUME they had never existed! The Romans recorded most things, so the records may well be "out there" somewhere.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:27 am

Smaug;1481097 wrote: Maybe we've been looking in the wrong places. The absence of something doesn't prove it's non-existence. We don't see any Brontosarus's around these days, but fossil records prove they existed. If we had found no fossil evidence, we would PRESUME they had never existed! The Romans recorded most things, so the records may well be "out there" somewhere.So then you have little doubt of the existence of Jesus based on the "presumption" of historical record and "belief" in unverifiable accounts of religious references?

Do you share the same presumptions regarding Noah's Ark?

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:54 am

Ahso!;1481098 wrote: So then you have little doubt of the existence of Jesus based on the "presumption" of historical record and "belief" in unverifiable accounts of religious references?

Do you share the same presumptions regarding Noah's Ark?

There are CHINESE legends of someone called Nu' Ar (Noah?) and how he built a large boat to survive a vast flood. Most cultures mention a huge flood in ancient times. It's not just BIBLICAL records.

Though this does NOT prove CONCLUSIVELY the existence of Nu' Ar, it does provide a pointer of sorts to his existence. Jesus is far more "modern", so accurate records probably DO exist somewhere that prove he existed.

There are grounds for this. A lot of the Earth's water is trapped in rock strata apparently. If something were to "squeeze" this rock strata, water would emerge. Rather similar to the way a sponge stores water. Give it a squeeze,and...flood time!

My question is; What could cause a "squeeze" on this scale?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:07 am

Smaug;1481101 wrote:

Jesus is far more "modern", so accurate records probably DO exist somewhere that prove he existed.I asked you for some outside of the bible and Quran you have yet to deliver. If there are "too many historical references" to list, how about three. Do you have three outside your holy book?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:11 am

Smaug;1481101 wrote: There are CHINESE legends of someone called Nu' Ar (Noah?) and how he built a large boat to survive a vast flood. Most cultures mention a huge flood in ancient times. It's not just BIBLICAL records.

Though this does NOT prove CONCLUSIVELY the existence of Nu' Ar, it does provide a pointer of sorts to his existence

There are grounds for this. A lot of the Earth's water is trapped in rock strata apparently. If something were to "squeeze" this rock strata, water would emerge. Rather similar to the way a sponge stores water. Give it a squeeze,and...flood time!

My question is; What could cause a "squeeze" on this scale?So the fact that the Chinese have a similar folk tale that lends credence to the biblical tale of Noah's Ark?

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:29 am

Ahso!;1481102 wrote: I asked you for some outside of the bible and Quran you have yet to deliver. If there are "too many historical references" to list, how about three. Do you have three outside your holy book?

Legends have strange branches, and stranger roots, it is said. I've already suggested old Roman or Jewish records as an alternate source of info, but as I don't have a spare decade or so to research this for myself, I'll content myself with leaning on the efforts of the dedicated historians, thanks!

When you say "my" holy book, that's both presumptious AND unobservant. I'm a PAGAN, as previously mentioned.

Must admit, I'm amused by this unusual debate. A non-believer (I presume!) and a Pagan debating the existence of Jesus and Noah (Nu' Ar?)...:yh_rotfl

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:36 am

Ahso!;1481103 wrote: So the fact that the Chinese have a similar folk tale that lends credence to the biblical tale of Noah's Ark?

Again,one has to ask what CAUSES these "folk tales?" The "Chinese whisper effect" included, these legends must be based on something!

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:52 am

Smaug;1481106 wrote: Again,one has to ask what CAUSES these "folk tales?" The "Chinese whisper effect" included, these legends must be based on something!

Not necessarily.

Somebody a few thousand years ago, sitting around a campfire makes up a tale of a vast flood to explain to his grandkids the "fishbones" the kid found in the rocks while out playing.

The grandkids told their kids, who passed the story along. eventually the story, with the "Chinese whisper" affect, found its way around the globe, with a number of variations in different global locales.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:11 am

LarsMac;1481110 wrote: Not necessarily.

Somebody a few thousand years ago, sitting around a campfire makes up a tale of a vast flood to explain to his grandkids the "fishbones" the kid found in the rocks while out playing.

The grandkids told their kids, who passed the story along. eventually the story, with the "Chinese whisper" affect, found its way around the globe, with a number of variations in different global locales.From an Evolutionary perspective, these are called "memes".

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:47 am

Ahso!;1481088 wrote: Would you mind showing me where his crucifixion is recorded? I don't there were any Roman records of it.

To my knowledge all biblical writings are many many years after Jesus supposedly existed, they contain no eye-witnesses at all AFAIK. I'm otherwise open to learning of some verifiable recording.

One example:

Pontius Pilate - Refers To Christ In Official Records

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:39 pm

Smaug;1481106 wrote: Again,one has to ask what CAUSES these "folk tales?" The "Chinese whisper effect" included, these legends must be based on something!

It's based on the fact that it actually happened. Shem, Ham and Japheth were the sons of Noah. Shem was the father of the Asians, Ham was the father of the Africans and Japheth was the father of the Europeans.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:51 pm

FourPart;1481160 wrote: One example:

Pontius Pilate - Refers To Christ In Official RecordsDid you read the site?

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:18 am

LarsMac;1481110 wrote: Not necessarily.

Somebody a few thousand years ago, sitting around a campfire makes up a tale of a vast flood to explain to his grandkids the "fishbones" the kid found in the rocks while out playing.

The grandkids told their kids, who passed the story along. eventually the story, with the "Chinese whisper" affect, found its way around the globe, with a number of variations in different global locales.

Might be a convenient explanation. On the other hand, it may (shock, horror!!) even be true, and Jesus may have performed his "miracles" in some manner that we fail to understand.

To a "white" Pagan mage, Jesus is the ultimate "white" ( as opposed to dark) magus. To Christians, he is The Messiah. To Muslims, Jesus is a PROPHET, but not The Messiah, that position is Muhammed's.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:08 pm

Smaug;1481203 wrote: Might be a convenient explanation. On the other hand, it may (shock, horror!!) even be true, and Jesus may have performed his "miracles" in some manner that we fail to understand.

To a "white" Pagan mage, Jesus is the ultimate "white" ( as opposed to dark) magus. To Christians, he is The Messiah. To Muslims, Jesus is a PROPHET, but not The Messiah, that position is Muhammed's.
Mohammed is a Prophet also.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:18 pm

Fourpart, are you going tell me whether or not you read the site you cited earlier?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:08 pm

Ahso!;1481222 wrote: Fourpart, are you going tell me whether or not you read the site you cited earlier?I'll take your refusal to answer as a "no". Maybe you'll tell me why you linked it if you weren't going to stand by it? If I didn't know you better, I might view your post as a troll post.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:29 pm

I did read it. Admittedly I didn't fully understand all of it, but what I read I took as meaning that Pilate had issued an apology for what he had done.

Although having done further research I accede that there is no known documentary evidence as to the existence (which I was sure there was). However, I did come across this (the finding of which must originally be attributed to Pahu in his denial of Evolution, of all people):

Surprising Archaeological Find: Proof of Jesus' Existence? | United Church of God

Although clearly biased, I don't see any reason to doubt it as being what the archaeologists claim it to be. However, as I said to Pahu, it may well confirm the existence of the person (or just someone of the same name), but it doesn't confirm the reported acts of the person concerned.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:49 pm

As I understand what I've read, the patina is traced to about 363AD, which still leaves plenty of time for forgery before the patina developed. I also understand that tomb-raiding was pretty common.

Thanks for the reply.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:31 pm

Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ

TACITUS: (55-117) A.D.)

Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of on of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the word find their center and become popular.”

PLINY THE YOUNGER: (112 A.D.)

Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor who wrote a letter to Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worshiped Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government acknowledged Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and set a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.

“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sand in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to any wicked deeds, not to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor to deny any trust when they should be call to deliver it up, after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food —but food of an ordinary but and innocent kind.”

BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D.)

The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary of the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what is a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They could not deny the miracles but claimed that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact.

“ On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the even of the Passover.”

The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a

LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)

a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.

LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)

Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.

“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

THALLUS: (52 A.D.)

One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”

Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.

PHLEGON: (1st Century)

A secular historian wrote a history named, “Chronicles.” This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.

“During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.”

Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.

SUETONIUS: (69-140 A.D.)

A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. He refers to Christ and Christians and the “disturbances” caused by them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their tormentors.

“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome].” Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.

Life of Claudius, 25:4.

In another work Suetonius wrote about the fire which devastated Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive in his gardens.

“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.”

Lives of the Caesars, 26.2

TOLEDOTH YESHU: (6 Century)

This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the response of the Jewish community to Christianity. The tradition presented here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE. The text it self is closer to the 14th century.

Mentions the empty tomb and that the Jewish leaders found it empty. That Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Passover and that He claimed to be God. That Jesus performed sorcery, he healed, and that he taught Rabbis. All of this from a hostile source, with the references above it is a historical fact that Jesus did miracles. His enemies could not refute it, rather they explained it away as sorcery!

CELSUS: (2nd Century)

Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the 2nd century.

JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)

Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark:

“As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, “You have conquered, O Galilean,” referring to Jesus Christ.

CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)

Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins.

“Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles.”

IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: (50-107 A.D.)

Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus was all that the apostles has said He was.

“…nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became perfect man strengthens me…We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians.”

While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius. When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions who immediately devoured him.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:31 pm

QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)

Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.

“The deeds of our Savior were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our times.”

Eusebius, IV, III

EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)

Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion of Jesus.

ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.)

Aristides was a second-century Christian believer and philosopher from Athens. This portion of his defense of Christianity was addressed to the Roman Emperor Antonius Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D.

“The Son of the most high God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, descended from heaven, born of a Hebrew Virgin. His flesh he received from the Virgin, and he revealed himself in the human nature as the Son of God. In his goodness which brought the glad tidings, he has won the whole world by his life-giving preaching…He selected twelve apostles and taught the whole world by his mediatorial, light-giving truth.

And he was crucified, being pierced with nails by the Jews; and he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He sent the apostles into all the world and instructed all by divine miracles full of wisdom. Their preaching bears blossoms and fruits to this day, and calls the whole world to illumination.”

Carey, “Aristides,” 68.

JUSTIN MARTYR: (106-167 A.D.)

Justin Martyr is regarded as one of the greatest early Christian apologists. He was born around 100 A.D and was beheaded for his faith in Jesus in 167 A.D. He mentions as facts many things about Jesus and Christianity, such as: The Magi (wise men who brought gifts from Arabia), King Herod, His crucifixion, His garments parted among the Roman soldiers, the apostles leaving him on the night of his arrest, his fulfilled prophecies, His resurrection and His ascending into heaven among many others. These quotes can be found in his debate with Trypho the Jew.

HEGESIPPUS: (2 Century)

Eusebius draws the conclusion that Hegesippus was a Jew that wrote five books called, “Memoirs.” Only fragments remain of his original work in the writings of Eusebius. They show that Hegesippus traveled extensively trying to determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they were accurate, even in the troubled church in Corinth.

“The Corinthian church continued in the true doctrine until Primus became bishop. I mixed with them on my voyage to Rome and spent several days with the Corinthians, during which we were refreshed with the true doctrine. On arrival at Rome I pieced together the succession down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus, Anicetus being succeeded by Soter and he by Eleutherus. In every line of bishops and in every city things accord with the preaching of the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord.”

Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2.

TRAJAN: (53-117 A.D.)

Trajan is a Roman Emperor who wrote a letter [see letter] in response to the Governor of Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger. Pliny needed advice in dealing with “Christians” who renounced their belief in Jesus due to fear of torture and execution.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:32 pm

MACROBIUS: (4th-5th Century)

Pascal (Pensees) mentions a quote of Augustus Caesar as an evidence to the murder of the 7-20 male babies (this is based on the population of Bethlehem in 4-6 B.C., which was 700-1,000 people) by King Herod in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16).

King Herod heard that a king was to be born and his fear and mental instability caused him to kill these male children under two years of age. King Herod killed his Wife, mother in law, and three sons. This is in character with his life of murder and paranoia. King Herod’s reign was described by his enemies as, “He stole to the throne like a fox, ruled like a tiger, and died like a dog.”

Saturnalia, lib. 2, ch.4.

HADRIAN: (106-167 A.D.)

Justin Martyr quotes this Roman Emperor’s letter to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul of Asia Minor. This letter deals with accusations from pagans against the Christians.

“I have received the letter addressed to me by your predecessor Serenius Granianus, a most illustrious man; and this communication I am unwilling to pass over in silence, lest innocent persons be disturbed, and occasion be given to the informers for practicing villainy. Accordingly, if the inhabitants of your province will so far sustain this petition of theirs as to accuse the Christians in some court of law, I do not prohibit them from doing so.

But I will not suffer them to make use of mere entreaties and outcries. For it is far more just, if any one desires to make an accusation, that you give judgment upon it. If, therefore, any one makes the accusation, and furnishes proof that the said men do anything contrary to the laws, you shall adjudge punishments in proportion to the offences.

And this, by Hercules; you shall give special heed to, that if any man shall, through mere calumny, bring an accusation against any of these persons, you shall award to him more severe punishments in proportion to his wickedness.”

Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapters, 68-69.

JUVENAL: (55 AD-127 AD)

Juvenal makes a reference of the tortures of Christians by Nero in Rome.

“But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.”

Satires, 1, lines 147-157.

SENECA: (3 B.C.-65 A.D.)

Seneca mentions the cruelties that Nero imposes upon Christians.

“The other kind of evil comes, so to speak, in the form of a huge parade. Surrounding it is a retinue of swords and fire and chains and a mob of beasts to be let loose upon the disemboweled entrails of men. Picture to yourself under his head the prison, the cross, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat. Think of human limbs torn apart by chariots driven in opposite directions, of the terrible shirt smeared and interwoven with inflammable materials, and of all the other contrivances devised by cruelty, in addition to those which I have mentioned!”

Epistulae Morales, Epistle 14, “On the Reasons for Withdrawing from the World.”

HIEROCLES: (AD 284-305)

A quote by Eusebius preserves some of the text of this lost work of Hierocles, Philalethes or Lover of Truth. In this quote, Hierocles condemns Peter and Paul as sorcerers. Again, their miracles could not be denied, rather they claimed that they used sorcery.

“And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,–men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards.”

Eusebius, The Treatise of Eusebius, ch. 2.

ANTONIUS PIUS: (86 AD to 161 AD)

A letter from the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius to the general assembly in Asia Minor. This letter says that the officials in Aisa Minor were getting upset at the Christians in their province, and that no changes are to be made in Antoninus’ method of dealing with them.

“The Emperor Caesar Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Augustus Pius, Supreme Pontiff, in the fifteenth year of his tribuneship, Consul for the third time, Father of the fatherland, to the Common Assembly of Asia, greeting: I should have thought that the gods themselves would see to it that such offenders should not escape.

For if they had the power, they themselves would much rather punish those who refuse to worship them; but it is you who bring trouble on these persons, and accuse as the opinion of atheists that which they hold, and lay to their charge certain other things which we are unable to prove.

But it would be advantageous to them that they should be thought to die for that of which they are accused, and they conquer you by being lavish of their lives rather than yield that obedience which you require of them. And regarding the earthquakes which have already happened and are now occurring, it is not seemly that you remind us of them, losing heart whenever they occur, and thus set your conduct in contrast with that of these men; for they have much greater confidence towards God than you yourselves have.

And you, indeed, seem at such times to ignore the gods, and you neglect the temples, and make no recognition of the worship of God. And hence you are jealous of those who do serve Him, and persecute them to the death.

Concerning such persons, some others also of the governors of provinces wrote to my most divine father; to whom he replied that they should not at all disturb such persons, unless they were found to be attempting anything against the Roman government. And to myself many have sent intimations regarding such persons, to whom I also replied in pursuance of my father’s judgment.

But if any one has a matter to bring against any person of this class, merely as such a person, let the accused be acquitted of the charge, even though he should be found to be such an one; but let the accuser he amenable to justice.”

Justin Martyr, The First Apology, ch. 70.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:42 am

I see xfrode feels the need to spam his thread since he doesn't like what's being posted.

Smaug · Post by **Smaug** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:40 am

Very few people take the time and trouble to make an "original" post, instead resorting to vast "copy and paste" tomes, I notice. Original thought/writing, and a certain amount of "condensing" would be better received, IMO.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:17 pm

Ahso!;1481266 wrote: I see xfrode feels the need to spam his thread since he doesn't like what's being posted.

You obviously didn't read the post immediately preceding this supposed spam. Someone said that there was no historical evidence for Jesus's Existence. I was merely providing the evidence. You see it as spam because of the vast amount of evidence provided. My point has been made. I didn't expect anyone to read it all, but I do want to demonstrate that there is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus, plus, that is not the half of it.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:47 pm

xfrodobagginsx;1481351 wrote: You obviously didn't read the post immediately preceding this supposed spam. Someone said that there was no historical evidence for Jesus's Existence. I was merely providing the evidence. You see it as spam because of the vast amount of evidence provided. My point has been made. I didn't expect anyone to read it all, but I do want to demonstrate that there is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus, plus, that is not the half of it.:wah::wah:

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:31 am

xfrodobagginsx;1481351 wrote: You obviously didn't read the post immediately preceding this supposed spam. Someone said that there was no historical evidence for Jesus's Existence. I was merely providing the evidence. You see it as spam because of the vast amount of evidence provided. My point has been made. I didn't expect anyone to read it all, but I do want to demonstrate that there is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus, plus, that is not the half of it.The contents of the pasted spam is irrelevant, as when it gets to that level of density (dense being the operative word) the mind just switches off. Even more so when it goes on to pack out 3 consecutive posts. They do not get read, so it's a total waste of time & space, just as with any kind of spam.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:18 pm

THIS VIDEO WILL EXPLAIN HOW THE NEW TESTIMENT OF THE BIBLE WAS CANONIZED (CAME TO BE):

WHOLE VIDEO:

Where Did the New Testament Come From? - Today's Christian Videos

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:19 pm

The Catholics are always Canonising people. It's like the Queen's Birthday Honours. A lot of the time no-one's even heard of those being honoured, and even then, more often than not, they're only nominated for political back scratching purposes.

I certainly don't intend on watching a 20 minute sermon on some Religious fantatical website preaching propaganda to promote its own wares. The New Testament (and the Old, for that matter) came from a load of folk tales being passed down by word of mouth, like a massive game of Chinese Whispers, translated, interpreted & enhanced, over & over again long before the first version was ever penned. It's as simple as that.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:06 pm

FourPart;1481717 wrote: The Catholics are always Canonising people. It's like the Queen's Birthday Honours. A lot of the time no-one's even heard of those being honoured, and even then, more often than not, they're only nominated for political back scratching purposes.

I certainly don't intend on watching a 20 minute sermon on some Religious fantatical website preaching propaganda to promote its own wares. The New Testament (and the Old, for that matter) came from a load of folk tales being passed down by word of mouth, like a massive game of Chinese Whispers, translated, interpreted & enhanced, over & over again long before the first version was ever penned. It's as simple as that.

They don't Canonize people. They Canonize Books of the Bible.

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:43 am

How much is a ticket to heaven? Are there any pensioner discounts?

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:10 am

xfrodobagginsx;1481810 wrote: They don't Canonize people. They Canonize Books of the Bible.

Not exclusively. Below is a dictionary definition of the word, so Fourpart was right.

canonize

/ËˆkÃ¦nÉ™ËŒnaÉªz/

verb (transitive)

1.

(RC Church) to declare (a person) to be a saint and thus admit to the canon of saints

2.

to regard as holy or as a saint

3.

to sanction by canon law; pronounce valid

Derived Forms

canonization, canonisation, noun

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:32 pm

Story of Angel and Cousin Sarah

Several years ago, My cousin was playing with a lighter in his bedroom. He caught a newspaper or comic book or something on fire and threw it on his bed. There were several people sleeping there. The whole house went up in flames. Everyone got out except for my 3 year old cousin sarah. They had written her off as dead. The whole house was in flames and filled with smoke. An off duty fireman happened to be driving by and saw the smoke. He stopped to help. He looked into the bedroom window and saw her sitting under the window with her hands on her head. He pulled her out and she was burned and has some scars to this day. He asked her how she knew to come over to that window and sit on the ground. She said that the man in the fire told her "Don't be afraid, to go over to the window sit down and put your hands over your head and face". Years later, she recounted her story with me. She said that the man had no face, light shining from it, he was 3 feet tall and dressed in white. He was floating in the corner of the room. My Grandparents were deeply committed Christians. Often times my Grandmother would be up all night, having trouble sleeping, praying for the safety of the family. At the same exact time that the fire was going on, my grandmother was several miles away sleeping in her bed. She heard a voice that told her "There's been a fire, Liz and the kids got out ok". A few minutes later, my Grandfather got the call on the phone "There's been a fire, liz and the kids got out ok" He tried to tell her what they said, but she already knew. The reason that God Spoke to her, I believe, is because it was HER prayer that the Lord was answering. Otherwise, my cousin would have died in the fire.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:09 am

I have no doubt that the final part of that is so, that you believe this to be so. However, there are countless reports of similar incidences around the world involving people of all faiths as well as those of no faith at all.

While there is vastly much more that we don't know about the brain than that which we know about it, it is generally accepted that lack of oxygen and/or the influence of other toxins is known to bring about hallucinations. Even in a semi-concious state in bed you will see a pattern on a wall, or some shadow, and it will suddenly, for no apparent reason take on the form of some physical presence.

There is also a simple self preservation instinct which is innate within all of us, and that reaction to fire is probably the basest. We are, after all, the only species who have been able to control fire to our own purpose. All others have a natural fear of it. That fear is still deep within our id.

There have also been experiments run where there have been signs & pictures placed on the tops of cupboards in hospitals where they can only be seen from above. This is because of the high incidence of "Out of Body" reports, where the subject reports that as they were on the brink of dying they felt their spirit float from their body & watched everything going on from above. To this end they would then be asked about the images on the cupboards. Not one has ever come up with a positive response. Therefore, this seems to me more like a case of lucid dreaming, which most of us have probably experienced at some time or another, where you are in a state of semi conciousness, when you suddenly become aware that you are dreaming & that you can take control of your dream. More often than not this involves being able to fly (possibly a referral back to our avian ancestry). However sometimes the same sort of thing happens when you don't actually realise it's a dream & believe it to be happening for real.

You believe in the explanation you propose. I don't dispute that. However, there are also numerous other explanations.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:59 am

So basically your faith is that there is more to the brain than meets the eye? Yes, I believe in out of body experiences and even believe in demonic activity. Not all spiritual activity is from God. My faith is that this was an act of God and He is the God of the Bible.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:42 pm

THIS VIDEO WILL EXPLAIN HOW THE NEW TESTIMENT OF THE BIBLE WAS CANONIZED (CAME TO BE):

WHOLE VIDEO:

Where Did the New Testament Come From? - Today's Christian Videos

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:18 am

Evidence of testaments being faked.