The Tottenham Riot

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:19 pm

Bryn Mawr;1364412 wrote: It is certainly a mistake to make judgements before sufficient information is available and we have certainly only heard half a story so far.

I agree, my opinion was changing with every new news Item that came In.

One thing Is a must. There has to be an Independent autopsy and make It public weather any gun residue was found on Duggan's body. If there Is none as I now suspect, then It Is a murder charge surely?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:22 pm

Betty Boop;1364411 wrote: Not every single soldier is out there! What about the TA's ? One thing is obvious, there's a lack of police to cope with the situation.

Not sure about the TA's. Are they not amateur's ? Would It be fair to expect them to risk their safety?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:23 pm

oscar;1364256 wrote: I am not In disagreement with you In relation as to what to believe but one can assume that first and fore-most, the officer Involved would have produced a radio with a bullet In It given reports.

How can anyone else at this stage claim he was armed with exception possibly to the taxi driver.? In this early stage, considering the victim Is now dead, the only reports will come from the police Involved. At a later date, we may hear from the taxi driver and passers by.

They are now suggesting that the results of a forensic examination of that bullet should be available within a day. It will be interesting to see the results of that one.

Mark Duggan: Questions Over Tottenham Shooting Over New Claims Over Bullet In Officer Radio | UK News | Sky News

However, The Guardian newspaper has quoted a source saying initial tests suggest the bullet was police issue.

And there would have been plenty of people on the streets when it happened - should be sufficient witnesses apart from the taxi driver.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:26 pm

oscar;1364415 wrote: I agree, my opinion was changing with every new news Item that came In.

One thing Is a must. There has to be an Independent autopsy and make It public weather any gun residue was found on Duggan's body. If there Is none as I now suspect, then It Is a murder charge surely?

Now that is not the priority, the main problem now is to stop the wild rampage throughout the country.

Whatever the rights or wrongs of the incident that supposedly set these events into motion, the events MUST be stopped....soonest.

Should water cannon and or troops be used ?

Latest to be hit Ealing and Lavender Hill.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:30 pm

oscar;1364419 wrote: Not sure about the TA's. Are they not amateur's ? Would It be fair to expect them to risk their safety?

Amateurs?? I don't think they'd be best pleased with that comment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territoria ... d_Kingdom)

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:34 pm

Betty Boop;1364422 wrote: Amateurs?? I don't think they'd be best pleased with that comment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territoria ... d_Kingdom)
I stand corrected.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:35 pm

Bruv;1364383 wrote: Frighteningly it is currently that is right now five to eight on 8th August occuring all over London.

Hackney Lewisham Peckham live on Sky news.

Getting closer - Hackney is no more than a mile up the road

All is peace and quiet round this neck of the woods.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:37 pm

oscar;1364408 wrote: If you read my posts after those you have quoted Bryn, you will see that my Initial theories disappeared with the more that came to light at a later date especially my post that I would not be at all surprised If they had a case of mistaken Identity and also that police must have been on both sides of the car for one officer to have a polic Issue bullet In his radio.

Sorry - I start at the beginning and respond to what I find as I go.

Late to the party again

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:39 pm

oscar;1364419 wrote: Not sure about the TA's. Are they not amateur's ? Would It be fair to expect them to risk their safety?

Semi-pro. Stepping in when needed is what we've been paying them to do for all those years they've been playing at being soldiers.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:42 pm

Bruv;1364421 wrote: Now that is not the priority, the main problem now is to stop the wild rampage throughout the country.

Whatever the rights or wrongs of the incident that supposedly set these events into motion, the events MUST be stopped....soonest.

Should water cannon and or troops be used ?

Latest to be hit Ealing and Lavender Hill.

Given that Ealing Studios created the Lavender Hill Mob that's a sad conjunction.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:44 pm

Bryn Mawr;1364425 wrote: Getting closer - Hackney is no more than a mile up the road

All is peace and quiet round this neck of the woods.

Hope it stays that way, mentioning Tower Bridge now on the BBC News.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:47 pm

Betty Boop;1364430 wrote: Hope it stays that way, mentioning Tower Bridge now on the BBC News.

Wonderful - next thing they'll be going for the office again. Sorry, wrong riot

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:58 pm

Bryn Mawr;1364431 wrote: Wonderful - next thing they'll be going for the office again. Sorry, wrong riot

Seems all quiet In Bristol

Post by **spot** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:08 pm

oscar;1364433 wrote: Seems all quiet In BristolThat's a relief. At the time you last reported I could find no alternative explanation for "Pork loin browning nicely under the grill In Bristol" in the context of this thread than that a police officer had sustained burns. I'm pleased to find I was mistaken.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:11 pm

spot;1364436 wrote: That's a relief. It the time you last reported I could find no alternative explanation for "Pork loin browning nicely under the grill In Bristol" in the context of this thread than that a police officer had sustained burns. I'm pleased to find I was mistaken. Now that Is funny Spot.... very funny !!!

Post by **spot** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:18 pm

Does anyone want a proposed fix for the riots? I'll offer one. Announce that CO19 will be immediately disbanded and not just renamed for the nth time. Announce that the Police station on Leman Street will be demolished and the site turned into a memorial park for all the ambush victims killed by police firearms officers over the last thirty years. Apologize for their institutional incompetence. Most particularly, stop protecting the commanders who screw up whenever someone ends up dead at the hands of the Met.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:28 pm

@spot do you seriously believe the perpetrators I have witnessed tonight on TV would all go home happily when your list is announced ?

What I am seeing is a criminal activity nothing else.

Post by **spot** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Well no, not at all, you're quite right. The rats out looting haven't the slightest interest in entrenched organizational incompetence within the Met, they're just sick of years of recession keeping them from glitzy toys in their living rooms. A permanent display of several thousand pre- and post-conviction photos of the rioters might shame them, I'd go for that.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:50 pm

spot;1364442 wrote: Well no, not at all, you're quite right. The rats out looting haven't the slightest interest in entrenched organizational incompetence within the Met, they're just sick of years of recession keeping them from glitzy toys in their living rooms. A permanent display of several thousand pre- and post-conviction photos of the rioters might shame them, I'd go for that.

It would be rather good to see every rotten, lying police officer Investigated by the IPCC for lying and bullying the public, sent out there, unarmed to deal with the looters... Let us see how tough they are then.

Scrat · Post by **Scrat** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:52 pm

I just watched the BBC and I guess the festivities continue tonight in other parts of London (Hackney, south London) and some of these go getters are playing on the streets of Birmingham.

Why doesn't Britain put these kids in school or something? :sneaky:

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:07 pm

I spoke too soon.

Disturbances In the area of St Pauls and Cabot Circus of Bristol.

Post by **spot** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:49 am

If I hear one more politician this morning say "The police are doing a magnificent job" I shall spit. They're quite obviously not. "More than 69 people[1] have been charged with various offences", over three days? It should be thousands. Whether they'd be found guilty in court or not is immaterial, they ought to be under lock and key until the events have completely ended. If the country doesn't have a large enough DP camp surrounded by barbed wire left then it ought to.

eta [1] - "Police said about 100 people had been arrested, many of them juveniles" in Birmingham too. The 69 charged possibly relates to London only though it may be the national figure, too little detail has been released to interpret.

eta 2: The police stated at 9.10 that the number arrested in London stands at 450, some being held by surrounding forces. The number charged, whether in London or nationally, hasn't been updated.

eta 3: The number of police deployed on London's streets last night has been announced as 6,000. Am I to believe that one fully-equipped metalized hyped-up 300 pound Robocop can't detain at least one measly teenager in the course of an entire night? What's the world coming to etc etc.

eta 4: "Policing by consent" doesn't mean by consent of the rioters, Theresa. Engage your brain next time.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:58 am

All quiet in Kingston. The kids get their jollies at weekend shindies outside the nightclubs so don't need other excuses.

I've been waiting to see what's going on and apart from the initial incident, it sounds as though this is kids using any excuse to rebel. Hope we don't lose sight of the initial incident.

(Scrat: we're on school hols here. Lots of teens hanging around with nothing to do...)

Post by **spot** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:35 am

There'll be 16,000 riot police in London tonight, according to Plastic Cameron. Perhaps he's been given an early view of the IPCC statement on the shooting of Mark Duggan, that's due this afternoon. Perhaps it will be upsetting.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:24 am

That statement by May that 'we police by consent' got to me too.

I am sure football stadia and troops might be useful under present conditions.

The Army has far more experience managing public disorder situations than the Police surely.

Bring out a few water cannons and arm them with 'smart water', issue an order "Clear the street" and see what happens.

And I am a lilly livered liberal........

Post by **spot** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:44 am

Various comments on the news have raised my ire. The notion that Massed Robocop in his armour-plated shield-protected aggressive ooo-rah posture is behaving bravely, for example. The pretence that what's happening wasn't triggered by yet another bloody armed police ambush killing someone with no weapon on his person, for another.

I doubt whether there'll be much trouble in London tonight. Every Friday and Saturday for the next month perhaps, going by civil unrest elsewhere in the world this year, that wouldn't surprise me at all. Surely tonight's more likely to see breakouts in whatever cities have ferried their goon squads to the capital.

Nobody's commented on the time of year, either. The BBC's mentioned the Olympic practices this week. These riots may well prove to be another. Social unrest next summer at the exact time when the police will already be fully stretched and the world's media is at hand must be an attractive prospect to some of the more forward-thinking protesters. The police can cancel football at Wembley this time round but they can scarcely cancel Olympic events next August.

Scrat · Post by **Scrat** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:45 am

I read the rioters are using Blackberries, Facebook and other means quite efficiently as a means of communication. The cops can't even sneeze without the rioters knowing about it.

Post by **spot** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:58 am

What's puzzling is that two massive distribution depots burned to the ground last night and neither seems at first glance a target of any rioter. The Sony national CD/DVD depot, a 20,000 square metre three-storey warehouse, went at Enfield, and a Sainsbury regional depot at Waltham Cross in Essex which employed 750 pickers. Both of them were immense, both would have rated front page headlines on any other day, neither were looted. I wonder what set them off.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:34 am

spot;1364471 wrote: Various comments on the news have raised my ire. The notion that Massed Robocop in his armour-plated shield-protected aggressive ooo-rah posture is behaving bravely, for example. The pretence that what's happening wasn't triggered by yet another bloody armed police ambush killing someone with no weapon on his person, for another.

I doubt whether there'll be much trouble in London tonight. Every Friday and Saturday for the next month perhaps, going by civil unrest elsewhere in the world this year, that wouldn't surprise me at all. Surely tonight's more likely to see breakouts in whatever cities have ferried their goon squads to the capital.

Nobody's commented on the time of year, either. The BBC's mentioned the Olympic practices this week. These riots may well prove to be another. Social unrest next summer at the exact time when the police will already be fully stretched and the world's media is at hand must be an attractive prospect to some of the more forward-thinking protesters. The police can cancel football at Wembley this time round but they can scarcely cancel Olympic events next August.

That may or mat not have triggered the original riot (I prefer to get all the facts before I come to conclusions) but it's certainly not the cause of those in bristol, leeds and elsewhere. Most riots and revolutions take place in the summer months when the weather is good if it starts raining it will probably help end the riots.

Various comments on the news have raised my ire, calls to bring in the troops for one thing, bring back national service for another. Why oh why do they trot out these fascists every time there is a disturbance.

Mind you I do think the police should go in mob handed. This is just rioting and looting for the sake of it.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:18 am

This is Bristol | Video: Bristol rioters clash with police

There Is about 5 short video's In this link of the situation In Bristol last night.

They are beyond contempt. They are not there to protest over the shooting of Mark Duggan but organised thuggery, theft and violence.

I have a very elderly relative around one of these area's who live's alone and the fear that these lawless thugs have Instilled Into Innocent people Is disgusting. They have absolutely no thought for another human being on this planet than themselves.

In this case, I may even find It acceptable for Bristol police to kick seven bells out of them.

Post by **spot** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:37 am

I commend this opinion piece in the Guardian: Met should disclose facts behind Mark Duggan's death | Jules Carey

There seems little difference between what Jules Carey has written and the content of this thread. His use of English might be a wisp better.In an ideal world, the IPCC would be a neutral body that concentrates on investigating allegations about deaths and serious injuries caused by police offers. However, the IPCC has increasingly become responsible for controlling the release of information about police incidents to the media and public. It opens itself up to the criticisms of bias in this role. In the Duggan case, for instance, while the IPCC has now '"categorically refuted'" rumours that Duggan was shot by police "execution style", it has failed to categorically confirm that the bullet in the radio was a police bullet or offer clarification about the circumstances in which the gun was found at the scene.

What is required, especially when a death is involved, is that there are timely and honest disclosures of the facts, even when those facts raise serious issues for the force concerned.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:46 am

A quote in one of the local rags today from a witness who works near to the scene of the shooting :-

About three or four police officers had both men (Mark Duggan and the taxi driver) pinned on the ground at gunpoint. They were really big guns and then I heard four loud shots

If this is a genuine eye-witness account then it raises huge questions.

If it is a true account then we are due a murder trial.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:47 am

spot;1364487 wrote: I commend this article in the Guardian: Met should disclose facts behind Mark Duggan's death | Jules Carey | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

There seems little difference between what Jules Carey has written and the content of this thread. His use of English might be a wisp better.

Yes, very good article.

There seems very little faith In the IPCC. I believed that a different police force carried out an Investigation?

Spot... do you believe the IPCC will try to bury this and put the blame on Mark Duggan?

My own experience of the IPCC was wholly positive but I must admit that when first approaching them, maybe they would 'stick together'. However, I could not have been proved more wrong.

Post by **spot** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:59 am

oscar;1364494 wrote: Spot... do you believe the IPCC will try to bury this and put the blame on Mark Duggan?They appear to be buying time by not releasing detrimental material.

As with Jean Charles de Menezes the bad news is bound to get out eventually. I think the consequence of their holding back is that many people will believe rumours, factually based or otherwise, on future occasions. The killing of Mark Duggan is already a future occasion.

The root of the problem is everyone from the IPCC down protecting the immunity of the incompetent operations planners and callous killers of Leman Street, instead of helping the law take its course with as competent an investigation as any normal murder would be given.

Post by **spot** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:40 am

There is no evidence Mark Duggan opened fire at police before being shot dead by a firearms officer, the Independent Police Complaints Commission has said.

BBC News - Mark Duggan death: 'No evidence' Tottenham man opened fire

It should, one would have thought, be a simple matter to establish whether the killers claim this pistol was in Mark Duggan's hand or whether they concede it wasn't. I'm quite sure that if the claim had been made the IPCC would have trumpeted it from one end of the kingdom to the other. Refusing to present the alternative - that the gun wasn't on his person at all - is the sort of IPCC bias and news management I'm criticizing. What does the CCTV evidence show?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:42 am

spot;1364503 wrote: There is no evidence Mark Duggan opened fire at police before being shot dead by a firearms officer, the Independent Police Complaints Commission has said.

BBC News - Mark Duggan death: 'No evidence' Tottenham man opened fire

It should, one would have thought, be a simple matter to establish whether the killers claim this pistol was in Mark Duggan's hand or whether they concede it wasn't. I'm quite sure that if the claim had been made the IPCC would have trumpeted it from one end of the kingdom to the other. Refusing to present the alternative - that the gun wasn't on his person at all - is the sort of IPCC bias and news management I'm criticizing. What does the CCTV evidence show? Just watching the news on TV, they seem to be confirming that Duggan did not fire at all.

Absolutely, If there was a scarp of evidence that Duggan had fired first, that Information would have been released by now.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:08 am

oscar;1364504 wrote: Just watching the news on TV, they seem to be confirming that Duggan did not fire at all.

Absolutely, If there was a scarp of evidence that Duggan had fired first, that Information would have been released by now.

And are we to assume that one officer was extrordinarilly lucky that his mate's shot hit his radio and did not go through it or do we guess that the squad were dumb enough to try to stage a "he shot at us first" excuse after the event?

Post by **spot** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:12 am

They can't be that dim.

There really has to be a complete CCTV record of everything from start to finish. I can see no reason whatever why it shouldn't be released unedited immediately. Not that they'll release it. I'd appreciate confirmation from the IPCC that it exists though. The video evidence of the Brixton Tube killing was disappeared, you'll remember. They can't keep doing that time after time.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:29 am

spot;1364507 wrote: They can't be that dim.

There really has to be a complete CCTV record of everything from start to finish. I can see no reason whatever why it shouldn't be released unedited immediately. Not that they'll release it. I'd appreciate confirmation from the IPCC that it exists though. The video evidence of the Brixton Tube killing was disappeared, you'll remember. They can't keep doing that time after time.

Given that the shooting happened right outside Tottenham Hale tube station it is guaranteed that there would be CCTV cameras covering the area. In fact, tonight's local news showed a still of the police cars surrounding the taxi after the event that looked very much like it was from CCTV footage.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:19 pm

Was just checking in to make sure none of my friends here got damaged in the riots. Can't believe it's gone on for so long. Seems like a lot of pent up societal rage just waiting for an excuse to unleash. Will be interesting to see if it leads to any resolution or just becomes about shame and jail.

Post by **spot** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:31 pm

There appears to have been two flavours of policing evident on last night's streets.

One was police with proper uniforms, proper equipment and (after dark) fluorescent highway jackets, getting and giving respect and doing the job society asks of them.

The other was the confrontational shield-carrying stick-wielding helmet-wearing face-masked anonymous Massed Robocop scenes which have had no place on England's streets since they - the police - were politically abused by Maggie Maggie Maggie. It strikes me that whenever they're deployed they'll invariably gather a response.

I've no problem with the first group firing plastic bullets at rioters. I have every problem in the world with the second group existing at all, they were transformed into the class enemy by the Thatcher government and the class enemy they'll remain until hell freezes over.

Post by **spot** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:57 pm

So, London can be locked down with 16,000 police deployed overnight but not with just 6,000, is that what we learned?

How many will be out tonight[1]. And tomorrow night. Because that rather extensive bunch of strutting looters with the face scarves hasn't gone anywhere or discovered yet that it can get hurt if it breaks windows. Eventually they're going to have to find out.

eta [1]: Another 16,000 according to the BBC. Given there's a parliamentary debate tomorrow I can well believe it. Will they still be there over the weekend though, that's the question.

Post by **spot** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:03 am

Who was it pressed for the Olympics to come to London? Wasn't it Tony Blair? Another bad call to add to a list of many bad calls, that one.

Call me Cassandra if you like but now, this month, is the time to announce the 2012 Olympics have been abandoned and won't take place. That will lose the UK far less face than having the present scenes re-enacted next August with the added complication of high-profile London events which can't be rescheduled. Pull the plug, gentlemen, and defuse what will otherwise be an international debacle.

Post by **spot** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:04 am

Police have begun a murder inquiry after three pedestrians were run over and killed by a driver in Birmingham. A man has been arrested and a vehicle recovered after the incident at about 01:00 BST on Dudley Road, Winson Green [...] It is thought the men who died had just come out of a mosque and were protecting their neighbourhood at the time of the incident in Winson Green.

BBC News - Murder inquiry after Birmingham pedestrians killed by driver

If the three were trying to stop traffic as part of an illegal roadblock at the time, I'm not surprised they were run over by a driver taken by surprise and refusing to stop by reason of fear on a night of riots. The report certainly reads that way.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:42 am

In not quite similar circumstances when someone has tried to stop my car I too have driven on, luckily not running over anyone but if push came to shove I'd have run them over before I stopped.

Post by **spot** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:09 am

It strikes me, seeing interviews this morning with the Acting Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, that whoever appointed him has a wicked sense of humour. The reference to The Slitheen from Doctor Who's "Aliens of London" is unavoidable.TO PASS – your BMI, which is calculated from your height and weight, needs to be in the healthy to overweight range. If your BMI is above 32 (for police ofﬁcers) or 35 (for PCSOs, DDOs or Specials) you will not be accepted unless your body fat is less than 30% for men or 36% for women. If it is likely you will need many months to lose the weight/fat required you will be rejected and will have to reapply. It is never too soon to review your lifestyle, so make sure that you have a healthy diet and take regular exercise.

http://www.met.police.uk/careers/faq.html

Once you're in you don't get retested now and then? Odd, that.

It's never too late to review your lifestyle, Mr Godwin.

Hugh Orde though, he's a different kettle of fish entirely. A fine figure of a man, Sir Hugh. I bet he wears stays.

Post by **spot** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:06 am

gmc;1364609 wrote: In not quite similar circumstances when someone has tried to stop my car I too have driven on, luckily not running over anyone but if push came to shove I'd have run them over before I stopped.

I think I'm going to apologize for the suggestion. I had it in mind that roads in Birmingham had been blocked off by residents in the past, perhaps to protest at kerb-crawling, but I can find no reference to it with searches so it may well be my imagination. For all I know the road may have been entirely clear when these three were hit on the pavement.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:51 am

spot;1364618 wrote: I think I'm going to apologize for the suggestion. I had it in mind that roads in Birmingham had been blocked off by residents in the past, perhaps to protest at kerb-crawling, but I can find no reference to it with searches so it may well be my imagination. For all I know the road may have been entirely clear when these three were hit on the pavement.

You are looking for racist motives perhaps, there are certainly those who will take advantage to try and stir up the race and religion issue. No copycat riots in scotland so far, might be due to the torrential rain, a different culture or a police force well geared up to dealing with sectarian violence and ready to go in mob handed.

Post by **spot** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:56 am

Your Great Leader has been offering hundreds of v.useful Scots Police Officers on loan to "our neighbours in the South", saying he was entirely confident in the good sense of his countrymen not to emulate the childish follies of English Yoof. He was grinning like a cat all the way through the interview.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:34 am

This is Bristol | 'Copycat' thuggishness puts lives at risk

Says the woman who critised police during the New Cheltenham Road riots last months.