Technical terms like psychopath get bandied about far too readily. It's a professional diagnosis and the professionals say he doesn't qualify:While Williams has the demeanour of a psychopath -- leading a double-life as a successful military man, chewing gum and confessing his crimes as a soldier might recall a completed mission, not showing any emotion in court. But Booth said he is not a psychopath.
"There is no psychopathy," he said, referring to a scoring system to determine such a diagnosis. "You need a score of 30 on a scale of 40 and he's only a 16-17," adding he lacks factors such as antisocial behaviour and anger.
'Hyper sexuality' run amok in Williams case | Canada | News | Toronto Sun
Whether we tag him with that label or not is moot. What matters is whether he could, given his career path, have easily and reasonably asked for help once he approached criminal behaviour. If there's a program in place to facilitate that then I'd quite like to read about it. I think he's at fault for not asking for such help.
Ontario, murder, discuss.
Ontario, murder, discuss.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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recovering conservative
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Ontario, murder, discuss.
spot;1340328 wrote: Technical terms like psychopath get bandied about far too readily. It's a professional diagnosis and the professionals say he doesn't qualify:While Williams has the demeanour of a psychopath -- leading a double-life as a successful military man, chewing gum and confessing his crimes as a soldier might recall a completed mission, not showing any emotion in court. But Booth said he is not a psychopath.
"There is no psychopathy," he said, referring to a scoring system to determine such a diagnosis. "You need a score of 30 on a scale of 40 and he's only a 16-17," adding he lacks factors such as antisocial behaviour and anger.
'Hyper sexuality' run amok in Williams case | Canada | News | Toronto Sun
Whether we tag him with that label or not is moot. What matters is whether he could, given his career path, have easily and reasonably asked for help once he approached criminal behaviour. If there's a program in place to facilitate that then I'd quite like to read about it. I think he's at fault for not asking for such help.
That scoring system is bollocks! It's a rough guideline that measures psychological behaviour; but it does not look at what is going on inside the brain, and what the neurological differences are between relatively normal functioning brains, and the bad ones. We'll see as more is learned about Russell Williams, what makes him tick
The other problem with this scoring chart is the physical aspects of brain dysfunction that I briefly described, show that the symptoms of low emotional intelligence have different physical causes. Not all psychopaths are the same! Some are high functioning, and able to restrain anti-social behaviour (not all psychopaths are criminals) and many of the ones who do, have enough self-discipline to maintain double lives and hide their life of crime for many years; while there are others that are reckless and impulsive, who just act out in violent outbursts, and would never be able to carry out the kind of planning to become a serial killer.
"There is no psychopathy," he said, referring to a scoring system to determine such a diagnosis. "You need a score of 30 on a scale of 40 and he's only a 16-17," adding he lacks factors such as antisocial behaviour and anger.
'Hyper sexuality' run amok in Williams case | Canada | News | Toronto Sun
Whether we tag him with that label or not is moot. What matters is whether he could, given his career path, have easily and reasonably asked for help once he approached criminal behaviour. If there's a program in place to facilitate that then I'd quite like to read about it. I think he's at fault for not asking for such help.
That scoring system is bollocks! It's a rough guideline that measures psychological behaviour; but it does not look at what is going on inside the brain, and what the neurological differences are between relatively normal functioning brains, and the bad ones. We'll see as more is learned about Russell Williams, what makes him tick
The other problem with this scoring chart is the physical aspects of brain dysfunction that I briefly described, show that the symptoms of low emotional intelligence have different physical causes. Not all psychopaths are the same! Some are high functioning, and able to restrain anti-social behaviour (not all psychopaths are criminals) and many of the ones who do, have enough self-discipline to maintain double lives and hide their life of crime for many years; while there are others that are reckless and impulsive, who just act out in violent outbursts, and would never be able to carry out the kind of planning to become a serial killer.
Ontario, murder, discuss.
recovering conservative;1340330 wrote: That scoring system is bollocks!What alternative would you suggest a professional diagnosis should be based on?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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recovering conservative
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- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Ontario, murder, discuss.
spot;1340331 wrote: What alternative would you suggest a professional diagnosis should be based on?
That's a difficult question to answer at the moment, and one that would be made a lot easier when brain function is better understood.
Just taking a look for some brief descriptions, this psychology education site provides a brief description of the differences between the main different theories about the causes and treatments of mental disorders, and the first thing that grabs my attention is that they make their diagnoses and suggest treatments just based on the symptoms of disease -- the person's behaviour.
Many critics of the Psychology profession say that they had no choice back when the brain was a virtual black box, that was barely understood. But, now that neuro-imaging technologies are able to study what's going on at the micro-level, and how that correlates with observed behaviours, it's time to pay more attention to what's going on in the brain, and how it affects outward behaviour, than to just keep making up new checklists to categorize behaviour.
Before I forget -- on that page, it mentions a brief legal determination of psychoses that would be recognized in a court of law: if you break the rules or laws determined by society you may be considered psychologically imbalanced. In fact, many say that the legal definition of "insanity" is being incapable of standing trial. It can't get much more specific than this, because the legal definitions of "insanity" vary from place to place....the full legal definition depends on where you live. And these legal determinations are so antiquated that they create a dilemma for the courts every time a defense has to bring in expert witnesses.
Traditionally, the courts only recognized an insanity plea if the person was psychotic, like a full blown schizophrenic. This sort of person would be so delusional that it made it a no-brainer that they weren't capable of understanding their actions. But, the array of disorders that produce symptoms of psychopathy are a problem for the legal system, because the impairment is not usually in their capacity to understand what they did -- the problem is that, for a variety of reasons, they do not get the emotional feedback that's needed to have a capacity of empathy.
The big problem now with categorically ruling that psychopaths are mentally incapacitated is because our court systems are still working with an antiquated understand of the mind. Until it was possible to study the workings of the brain, the law went by the age-old assumptions of traditional religious and philosophical understanding of the mind -- that we possess a mind that is separate and directs our physical bodies. A separate, immaterial mind means that someone who is consciously aware, has complete libertarian free will to make choices....and the person can be judged and condemned based on those choices. In spite of scientific evidence to the contrary over the last 20 years, the courts are going to be very reluctant to change their legal understanding of free will, because that belief in libertarian free will has justified a justice system primarily based on the principle of retribution. And if they want to change to a modern understanding of the mind, it is yet one more issue where there will be vocal opposition from conservatives and all sorts of religious fundamentalists. Politicians usually pick the safest, most popular choice, rather than what they believe is right -- so it won't be until the wheels have completely fallen off the criminal justice system, and a big enough population wants reform...that it will actually happen.
I should mention that in the specific case here dealing with a serial rapist and murderer, reforming the system would still leave us having to incarcerate such a dangerous offender for life anyway! Where the reform has to take place is when a juvenile offender, who is showing symptoms of psychopathy, is given the opportunity to undergo decompression therapy (I don't know the details of this yet, but it's the only psycho-therapy that shows any promise with psychopaths). If we could get off the retribution merry-go-round, we could prevent at least some anti-social thugs from becoming career criminals and costing us much more financially and socially over their years. I should note, that where I live in Canada, our bonehead Conservative Government is doing what conservative everywhere do when they have crime and punishment issues -- demagoguing it, and promising to build lots more prisons!
That's a difficult question to answer at the moment, and one that would be made a lot easier when brain function is better understood.
Just taking a look for some brief descriptions, this psychology education site provides a brief description of the differences between the main different theories about the causes and treatments of mental disorders, and the first thing that grabs my attention is that they make their diagnoses and suggest treatments just based on the symptoms of disease -- the person's behaviour.
Many critics of the Psychology profession say that they had no choice back when the brain was a virtual black box, that was barely understood. But, now that neuro-imaging technologies are able to study what's going on at the micro-level, and how that correlates with observed behaviours, it's time to pay more attention to what's going on in the brain, and how it affects outward behaviour, than to just keep making up new checklists to categorize behaviour.
Before I forget -- on that page, it mentions a brief legal determination of psychoses that would be recognized in a court of law: if you break the rules or laws determined by society you may be considered psychologically imbalanced. In fact, many say that the legal definition of "insanity" is being incapable of standing trial. It can't get much more specific than this, because the legal definitions of "insanity" vary from place to place....the full legal definition depends on where you live. And these legal determinations are so antiquated that they create a dilemma for the courts every time a defense has to bring in expert witnesses.
Traditionally, the courts only recognized an insanity plea if the person was psychotic, like a full blown schizophrenic. This sort of person would be so delusional that it made it a no-brainer that they weren't capable of understanding their actions. But, the array of disorders that produce symptoms of psychopathy are a problem for the legal system, because the impairment is not usually in their capacity to understand what they did -- the problem is that, for a variety of reasons, they do not get the emotional feedback that's needed to have a capacity of empathy.
The big problem now with categorically ruling that psychopaths are mentally incapacitated is because our court systems are still working with an antiquated understand of the mind. Until it was possible to study the workings of the brain, the law went by the age-old assumptions of traditional religious and philosophical understanding of the mind -- that we possess a mind that is separate and directs our physical bodies. A separate, immaterial mind means that someone who is consciously aware, has complete libertarian free will to make choices....and the person can be judged and condemned based on those choices. In spite of scientific evidence to the contrary over the last 20 years, the courts are going to be very reluctant to change their legal understanding of free will, because that belief in libertarian free will has justified a justice system primarily based on the principle of retribution. And if they want to change to a modern understanding of the mind, it is yet one more issue where there will be vocal opposition from conservatives and all sorts of religious fundamentalists. Politicians usually pick the safest, most popular choice, rather than what they believe is right -- so it won't be until the wheels have completely fallen off the criminal justice system, and a big enough population wants reform...that it will actually happen.
I should mention that in the specific case here dealing with a serial rapist and murderer, reforming the system would still leave us having to incarcerate such a dangerous offender for life anyway! Where the reform has to take place is when a juvenile offender, who is showing symptoms of psychopathy, is given the opportunity to undergo decompression therapy (I don't know the details of this yet, but it's the only psycho-therapy that shows any promise with psychopaths). If we could get off the retribution merry-go-round, we could prevent at least some anti-social thugs from becoming career criminals and costing us much more financially and socially over their years. I should note, that where I live in Canada, our bonehead Conservative Government is doing what conservative everywhere do when they have crime and punishment issues -- demagoguing it, and promising to build lots more prisons!
Ontario, murder, discuss.
It strikes me that any diagnosis which is retrospective and depends on a court of law bringing in a guilty verdict is iffy when it comes to a medical condition. Unless you don't regard it as a province of the medical profession.
I don't argue that the chap should ever be released, either. For one thing I can't see it ever being in his interest. It has nothing to do with retribution, there should be no place for that in any judicial system. We happen to use prisons to keep people out of society, I'd rather he was in a secure asylum. The very word "asylum" indicates my thinking.
Prisons, by contrast, should be reformatories and nothing else.
I don't argue that the chap should ever be released, either. For one thing I can't see it ever being in his interest. It has nothing to do with retribution, there should be no place for that in any judicial system. We happen to use prisons to keep people out of society, I'd rather he was in a secure asylum. The very word "asylum" indicates my thinking.
Prisons, by contrast, should be reformatories and nothing else.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ontario, murder, discuss.
I think this has more to do with breed than disorders, but I'm doubtful of 'disorders' at all with the exception of accidents that cause brain damage. I like to think in terms of variation instead.
So for me the question is as technology permits us to identify people with brain activity as 'psychopathic' - what do we do? Do we isolate or separate them from the non-psychopathic people somehow? Do we sterilize them so they can't reproduce? Do we abort them? Maybe its also possible to treat people therapeutically either in combination with sterilization or not and wait for the adaptation to be replace with the therapeutic model, though that may take thousands of years. If its hormonal the hormone could most likely be bred out as was done with the Silver Fox in Russia, but the consequences may be altered physical appearances which the Fox ended up with (floppy ears, a curled tail and spots on its coat). Domesticated silver fox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So for me the question is as technology permits us to identify people with brain activity as 'psychopathic' - what do we do? Do we isolate or separate them from the non-psychopathic people somehow? Do we sterilize them so they can't reproduce? Do we abort them? Maybe its also possible to treat people therapeutically either in combination with sterilization or not and wait for the adaptation to be replace with the therapeutic model, though that may take thousands of years. If its hormonal the hormone could most likely be bred out as was done with the Silver Fox in Russia, but the consequences may be altered physical appearances which the Fox ended up with (floppy ears, a curled tail and spots on its coat). Domesticated silver fox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
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recovering conservative
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Ontario, murder, discuss.
spot;1340403 wrote: It strikes me that any diagnosis which is retrospective and depends on a court of law bringing in a guilty verdict is iffy when it comes to a medical condition. Unless you don't regard it as a province of the medical profession.
Yes, but it's not so much about determining if they are guilty, rather than what to do with them after they are convicted.
I don't argue that the chap should ever be released, either. For one thing I can't see it ever being in his interest. It has nothing to do with retribution, there should be no place for that in any judicial system. We happen to use prisons to keep people out of society, I'd rather he was in a secure asylum. The very word "asylum" indicates my thinking.
Right now, there is almost nothing that can be done to ensure that dangerous psychopaths are safe to be put back in society. That was part of the argument behind instituting a "Dangerous Offender" category in Canadian Law several years back. Theoretically, the dangerous offender does not have to even be a killer.....yet! But his profile is of someone who will always present a threat to others.
What has been shown so far, is that rehabilitation methods to treat criminals who are psychologically normal, are not only ineffective, but are also counter-productive when applied to psychopaths! The problem is that -- as we have discovered, psychopaths do not receive normal emotional feedback -- so, when a psychopath is put in a traditional group therapy session, he still has no capacity to develop empathy, and merely learns how what others expect, and how to better show fake concern to win over the trust of others, including future victims.
Most psychopaths could probably never be treated effectively by drugs or psychotherapies, because it is usually accompanied by widespread brain damage or dysfunction. But, in theory, if it was possible to give a psychopath a pill that would make him normal, how would society want to be deal with him? He would still be guilty of his crimes, but if his emotional impairment could be treated by a quick fix, I wonder if society or the legal system could move out of normal retribution mode!
I read about one case, a few years ago (which is somewhat disputed) about a man who started feeling sexually aroused by children after being normal until his mid-30's. The man was referred to some sort of treatment, but nevertheless committed at least one sex crime with a child. Afterwards, it was discovered that the man had an amygdaloid tumor -- which once removed from this mid-brain center that is crucial to emotions and emotional response -- started describing normal sexual reactions. Psychologists who tested him later, determined that he did not show arousal when exposed to pedophilia -- so, was he really cured? And was he really guilty of his sex crime before the tumor was removed? Was he the emotional equivalent of 'temporarily insane' during that period of his life, and not truly guilty of the crime?
Prisons, by contrast, should be reformatories and nothing else.
There are a large percentage of psychopaths among prison and youth correction populations. Maybe if there was an attempt to isolate them from other prisoners, rehabilitation of normal prisoners would be more effective.
Yes, but it's not so much about determining if they are guilty, rather than what to do with them after they are convicted.
I don't argue that the chap should ever be released, either. For one thing I can't see it ever being in his interest. It has nothing to do with retribution, there should be no place for that in any judicial system. We happen to use prisons to keep people out of society, I'd rather he was in a secure asylum. The very word "asylum" indicates my thinking.
Right now, there is almost nothing that can be done to ensure that dangerous psychopaths are safe to be put back in society. That was part of the argument behind instituting a "Dangerous Offender" category in Canadian Law several years back. Theoretically, the dangerous offender does not have to even be a killer.....yet! But his profile is of someone who will always present a threat to others.
What has been shown so far, is that rehabilitation methods to treat criminals who are psychologically normal, are not only ineffective, but are also counter-productive when applied to psychopaths! The problem is that -- as we have discovered, psychopaths do not receive normal emotional feedback -- so, when a psychopath is put in a traditional group therapy session, he still has no capacity to develop empathy, and merely learns how what others expect, and how to better show fake concern to win over the trust of others, including future victims.
Most psychopaths could probably never be treated effectively by drugs or psychotherapies, because it is usually accompanied by widespread brain damage or dysfunction. But, in theory, if it was possible to give a psychopath a pill that would make him normal, how would society want to be deal with him? He would still be guilty of his crimes, but if his emotional impairment could be treated by a quick fix, I wonder if society or the legal system could move out of normal retribution mode!
I read about one case, a few years ago (which is somewhat disputed) about a man who started feeling sexually aroused by children after being normal until his mid-30's. The man was referred to some sort of treatment, but nevertheless committed at least one sex crime with a child. Afterwards, it was discovered that the man had an amygdaloid tumor -- which once removed from this mid-brain center that is crucial to emotions and emotional response -- started describing normal sexual reactions. Psychologists who tested him later, determined that he did not show arousal when exposed to pedophilia -- so, was he really cured? And was he really guilty of his sex crime before the tumor was removed? Was he the emotional equivalent of 'temporarily insane' during that period of his life, and not truly guilty of the crime?
Prisons, by contrast, should be reformatories and nothing else.
There are a large percentage of psychopaths among prison and youth correction populations. Maybe if there was an attempt to isolate them from other prisoners, rehabilitation of normal prisoners would be more effective.
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recovering conservative
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- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Ontario, murder, discuss.
Ahso!;1340404 wrote: I think this has more to do with breed than disorders, but I'm doubtful of 'disorders' at all with the exception of accidents that cause brain damage. I like to think in terms of variation instead.
So for me the question is as technology permits us to identify people with brain activity as 'psychopathic' - what do we do? Do we isolate or separate them from the non-psychopathic people somehow? Do we sterilize them so they can't reproduce? Do we abort them? Maybe its also possible to treat people therapeutically either in combination with sterilization or not and wait for the adaptation to be replace with the therapeutic model, though that may take thousands of years. If its hormonal the hormone could most likely be bred out as was done with the Silver Fox in Russia, but the consequences may be altered physical appearances which the Fox ended up with (floppy ears, a curled tail and spots on its coat). Domesticated silver fox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The attempt to breed docile foxes, showed us how individual genetic traits, showed how traits come in bunches, and it's impossible to explain each individual change. It's been a mystery for ages why certain domestic dogs have ear folds, while others have straight, pointy ears. The foxes answered that question when the calmer, more docile foxes started developing floppy ears. It's a fact that every dog owner is aware of -- that the pointy-eared dogs are more aggressive, regardless of size, than the floppy-eared variety.
Sociologists looking at the question of antisocial actors in society, believe that psychopathy would have been historically less of a problem in smaller communities of days gone by, when anti-social behaviour wouldn't be tolerated, and such behaviour could eventually lead to banishment from the tribe, or the village. A big exception to this rule would have been determined by how much war and conflict was going on around these little communities; because, if being fearless and ruthless in battle was an advantage, then the criminal psychopath might actually enjoy an advantage over his more normal, saner brethren. This is why I think we have to be concerned about theatres of war that keep dragging on endlessly. We have to be concerned about some of our own soldiers coming back from the war who do not suffer from PTSD and enjoyed the action.
Likewise, many societies like the Congo, Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan become virtually permanently ungovernable because a few generations of killers have been lauded as heroes and given the most breeding opportunities to have the most offspring -- perpetuating the problem! I read a little factoid once that about 16% of the present population of Central Asia can directly connect their ancestry to Genghis Khan......nothing more needs to be said!
So for me the question is as technology permits us to identify people with brain activity as 'psychopathic' - what do we do? Do we isolate or separate them from the non-psychopathic people somehow? Do we sterilize them so they can't reproduce? Do we abort them? Maybe its also possible to treat people therapeutically either in combination with sterilization or not and wait for the adaptation to be replace with the therapeutic model, though that may take thousands of years. If its hormonal the hormone could most likely be bred out as was done with the Silver Fox in Russia, but the consequences may be altered physical appearances which the Fox ended up with (floppy ears, a curled tail and spots on its coat). Domesticated silver fox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The attempt to breed docile foxes, showed us how individual genetic traits, showed how traits come in bunches, and it's impossible to explain each individual change. It's been a mystery for ages why certain domestic dogs have ear folds, while others have straight, pointy ears. The foxes answered that question when the calmer, more docile foxes started developing floppy ears. It's a fact that every dog owner is aware of -- that the pointy-eared dogs are more aggressive, regardless of size, than the floppy-eared variety.
Sociologists looking at the question of antisocial actors in society, believe that psychopathy would have been historically less of a problem in smaller communities of days gone by, when anti-social behaviour wouldn't be tolerated, and such behaviour could eventually lead to banishment from the tribe, or the village. A big exception to this rule would have been determined by how much war and conflict was going on around these little communities; because, if being fearless and ruthless in battle was an advantage, then the criminal psychopath might actually enjoy an advantage over his more normal, saner brethren. This is why I think we have to be concerned about theatres of war that keep dragging on endlessly. We have to be concerned about some of our own soldiers coming back from the war who do not suffer from PTSD and enjoyed the action.
Likewise, many societies like the Congo, Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan become virtually permanently ungovernable because a few generations of killers have been lauded as heroes and given the most breeding opportunities to have the most offspring -- perpetuating the problem! I read a little factoid once that about 16% of the present population of Central Asia can directly connect their ancestry to Genghis Khan......nothing more needs to be said!