How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[xfrodobagginsx]

Ahso!;1359923 wrote: This is called obsessing, I do it too. I'd made this same exact argument when I was a believer. It's interesting how often so many of us convince ourselves of imagined events. The obsessive aspects will most likely wear off in time.

The thing is, for many people, once they get the Religion Bug, the only way out is through it.


It's not about religion, it's about a relationship with Jesus.

[spot]

xfrodobagginsx;1386997 wrote: It's not about religion, it's about a relationship with Jesus.


Jesus, if he ever existed, is dead. Christianity is a relationship with a set of ideas about how people should behave toward each other. The many misguided notions of a bunch of pathological millennialists in the first century and their obscure writings, and the misguided misogyny and sexual intolerance of the times in which they wrote, are of limited historical interest, they're neither laws nor even facts.

Oh - and your parlour trick with the "pray this and see what happens" is a disgusting abuse. The fact that something happens doesn't make your lying explanation for it true. Snake oil salesmen fall into the same category of con artist, baggins.

[xfrodobagginsx]

spot;1387002 wrote: Jesus, if he ever existed, is dead. Christianity is a relationship with a set of ideas about how people should behave toward each other. The many misguided notions of a bunch of pathological millennialists in the first century and their obscure writings, and the misguided misogyny and sexual intolerance of the times in which they wrote, are of limited historical interest, they're neither laws nor even facts.

No He isn't. If He were dead, then the disciples would have exposed as a fraud and Christianity would have died with them. Christianity is baked up by eyewitness testimony (The Bible), church history, secular history and the changed lives of millions.

Oh - and your parlour trick with the "pray this and see what happens" is a disgusting abuse. The fact that something happens doesn't make your lying explanation for it true. Snake oil salesmen fall into the same category of con artist, baggins.

That's so interesting. It shows your fear of finding out the truth. For me to ask people to at least pray and give God a chance to reveal Himself to them and possibly saving their soul from hell is abuse? What you are doing is the most evil thing that anyone can do. Not only are you refusing to give God a chance, but you are hindering others as well.








My responses are above

[xfrodobagginsx]

spot;1387002 wrote: Jesus, if he ever existed, is dead.


Jesus is very much alive and in heaven. Let's not forget that He ROSE from the dead, was seen by hundreds of witnesses, including His disciples and ascended into heaven in front of them.

[spot]

xfrodobagginsx;1387846 wrote: Jesus is very much alive and in heaven. Let's not forget that He ROSE from the dead, was seen by hundreds of witnesses, including His disciples and ascended into heaven in front of them.


You use a different dictionary to coherent people, baggins. Your dogmatic blinkers make your claims laughable.

[xfrodobagginsx]

spot;1387856 wrote: You use a different dictionary to coherent people, baggins. Your dogmatic blinkers make your claims laughable.


If you consider basing my beliefs on the actual facts, evidence, historians and eyewitnesses laughable, then so be it.

[spot]

All you need in order to believe the Brer Rabbit stories are true is a conviction that Joel Chandler Harris wrote down the Very Word Of God. And a congregation of like-minded delusionals. With hymns. And how do you know the Holy Writ is true? Because Uncle Remus says they are, right there in black and white in the Holy Writ.

You're a seller of hokum, baggins. You purvey snake oil.

[Snooz]

I had no idea we had a hobbit as a member.

[spot]

SnoozeAgain;1388502 wrote: I had no idea we had a hobbit as a member.


This chap's just as unreal.

[xfrodobagginsx]

spot;1388500 wrote: All you need in order to believe the Brer Rabbit stories are true is a conviction that Joel Chandler Harris wrote down the Very Word Of God. And a congregation of like-minded delusionals. With hymns. And how do you know the Holy Writ is true? Because Uncle Remus says they are, right there in black and white in the Holy Writ.

You're a seller of hokum, baggins. You purvey snake oil.


But that's not how it is with Christianity. They are based upon actual History, Brer Rabbit is not, it's based upon eyewitness testimony, Brer Rabbit is not, it's based upon scientific evidence that backs up the bible, Brer Rabbit is not, it's based upon the bible, Brer Rabbit is not, it's backed by church history, Brer Rabbit is not, Jesus Christ fulfilled hundreds of prophecies written of Him hundreds of years before His birth, Brer Rabbit is not, it's based upon the testimonies of millions of Christians who have had their lives transformed and have a personal relationship with God for the first time in their lives, Brer Rabbit is not. Big difference.

[littleCJelkton]

xfrodobagginsx;1389015 wrote: But that's not how it is with Christianity. They are based upon actual History, Brer Rabbit is not, it's based upon eyewitness testimony, Brer Rabbit is not, it's based upon scientific evidence that backs up the bible, Brer Rabbit is not, it's based upon the bible, Brer Rabbit is not, it's backed by church history, Brer Rabbit is not, Jesus Christ fulfilled hundreds of prophecies written of Him hundreds of years before His birth, Brer Rabbit is not, it's based upon the testimonies of millions of Christians who have had their lives transformed and have a personal relationship with God for the first time in their lives, Brer Rabbit is not. Big difference.


If what littile scientific evidence their is in the bible proves the little bits and pieces about the bible it can, than there is enough evidence out there to prove the Brer Rabbit There is no difference.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Was The New Testament Written by the Eyewitnesses or After All Eyewitnesses Were Dead?



Critics claim that the New Testament was written so long after the events of Jesus� life that all the eyewitnesses had died and thus the accounts are not accurate. Can we answer this claim? Do we have any reason to believe that the New Testament was written within the lifetime of eyewitnesses? Yes we do. Let�s start with a timeline of the events we�ll be talking about.



4 to 1 BC � Jesus is born

30 to 35 AD � Jesus is crucified and resurrected

50 to 95 AD � The New Testament is written





Here are some reasons for dating the New Testament books early:



� Jesus had predicted that the Jewish temple would be destroyed. This happened in 70AD yet none of the gospels - even John which was written last - mentions it. The idea that, not one, but four different gospel writers would not mention this fulfilled prophecy is simply hard to believe. Some critics argue that the destruction of the temple is mentioned in chapters like Matthew 24 but those verses are clearly talking about the Great Tribulation because they mentioned Jesus returning and reigning forever. It�s foolish to suggest that four different writers were smart enough to fool everyone into thinking Christianity was true yet all were stupid enough to say that Jesus had returned and was reigning



� Around 95AD the early church father Clement quotes either directly or indirectly nearly every book of the Bible



� Throughout church history the authors of the gospels have never been disputed. They have always been Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. This is very important because had these books been written by anonymous authors many years later we would find two things:



1) There would be several different traditional authors to each book

2) They would be named after more important people



For point #1 we point out that there is not one different author suggested anywhere in church history for any of the gospels. Not one. It�s only recent modern �scholars� that claim the authorship of the gospels is in dispute. The early church always knew who wrote them. We can prove this out. Compare the gospels to the book of Hebrews which is anonymous. While the gospels have only one author per book, Hebrews has no less then half a dozen different traditional authors!



As far as point #2 goes, note that three of the four gospel writers aren�t important people in the New Testament (John is the exception). Compare this to books that are known frauds� The Gospel of Peter, The Gospel of Mary, The Gospel of Thomas, all well-known figures. People who forge books would put famous people�s names on them to give them credibility. The gospels don�t follow this pattern.



The gospels claimed to be written either eyewitnesses (Matthew, John) or people who had access to eyewitnesses (Mark, who served as Peter�s secretary and Luke who had access to Paul and the other apostles). And it was nearly two thousand years before anyone disputed this





Now let�s see if we can find reasons to date some books earlier then 70AD:



� Paul, who wrote two-thirds of the New Testament, wrote his works between 50-55AD. These dates are not seriously disputed. So, if nothing else, we can say most of the Bible can be traced back as early as 15 to 20 years of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus



� Peter and Paul were both martyred around 66AD yet the New Testament does not mention their deaths. After Jesus they are the two most important people in Church history and yet not so much as one verse is devoted to their deaths? Even stranger is that Acts, which is the �sequel� to the gospel of Luke, ends with Paul in jail. So from this we can conclude that Paul was still alive by the end of Acts. Now if Paul died in 66AD then Acts must have been written before that. If Acts was written before 66AD then Luke must have been written even earlier then that. And since critics say that Luke was written after Mark and Matthew then they both must have been written very early. That means at least three of the four gospels were written before 66 AD and most likely all were written before 70AD



� James, who authored the book of the Bible after the same name was martyred in 62AD





So before 70AD have at least Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians , 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Philemon, James, 1 Peter, and 2 Peter all written.





Now let�s take a different approach to prove our point. The fatal mistake the critics make is they assume that there was 30 or more years of silence between the death of Jesus and the birth of Christianity. Jesus, they reason, died and long after all the eyewitnesses were gone the New Testament was written. I think we can show this wasn�t the case and that the apostles were preaching about Jesus from the beginning.



As we said before, the earliest New Testament writings come from Paul in the early 50�s. So right here we have the two-thirds of the New Testament written within 15 to 20 years of the crucifixion. What�s important is what Paul wrote. He doesn�t talk much about Jesus life the way the gospels do. His writings build on the foundation of the gospels. He assumes you�ve already heard the gospel account.



Also notice to whom he�s writing to. He writes to churches and elders and instructs them on theology, church conduct, the importance of the resurrection (even challenging people to verify the resurrection by talking to the eyewitnesses!), and corrects false teaching. So from Paul�s writings we learn:



� He writes to people who knew the gospel story and he is teaching them how to apply the gospels to their lives



� Christianity is so far advance that it�s organized to the point where there are churches in many areas far away and they have elders



� The churches were having to deal with false teachers who were coming to their churches



So within 15-20 years of the crucifixion Christianity has gained a following, spread throughout different regions, organized meeting places for believers, established a hierarchy within the church, and has been around long enough to develop problems with false teachers. You can�t do all this overnight. And you can�t do it at all if people hadn�t heard, and checked out for themselves, the claims of the gospel.

Later on, with the rise of the false teachers the need arose for the gospels to be written so future generations would know the truth about the good news of the salvation that is found in Jesus Christ.

[xfrodobagginsx]

littleCJelkton;1389016 wrote: If what littile scientific evidence their is in the bible proves the little bits and pieces about the bible it can, than there is enough evidence out there to prove the Brer Rabbit There is no difference.


I'm not just talking about the tidbits in the bible. I'm talking about looking at the ACTUAL scientific evidence, without using someone else's interpretation, namely, the evolutionists.

[littleCJelkton]

xfrodobagginsx;1389336 wrote: I'm not just talking about the tidbits in the bible. I'm talking about looking at the ACTUAL scientific evidence, without using someone else's interpretation, namely, the evolutionists.


and I am talking about using ACTUAL scientific evidence not just those scientist that are paid for by the HOLY coffers. You say with out someone else's interpretation, that exactly what the bible is; someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what God might of said being that everyone of those someones weren't just feeding the next someone else a bunch of Crock

[xfrodobagginsx]

littleCJelkton;1389406 wrote: and I am talking about using ACTUAL scientific evidence not just those scientist that are paid for by the HOLY coffers. You say with out someone else's interpretation, that exactly what the bible is; someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what someone else's interpretation of what God might of said being that everyone of those someones weren't just feeding the next someone else a bunch of Crock


That's such a big cop out. You don't want to look at the actual evidence because you're worried that you will be wrong. That's what it is. Why not look at the evidence that think for yourself?

[littleCJelkton]

xfrodobagginsx;1390172 wrote: That's such a big cop out. You don't want to look at the actual evidence because you're worried that you will be wrong. That's what it is. Why not look at the evidence that think for yourself?


Can you please stop trying the I know you know they know ring-around the rosy game it is getting real old and doesn't work, You just restated what you posted like 3 post ago in different wording and it still doesn't show that your evidence is not payed to be the ruse of evidence by religious Nut-jobs like you that have holy money in their coffers to sin with. So again give me this evidence of yours that is not bought and paid for by powers that will have the evidence rigged to show a certain result. Until then there is no evidence and the Bible is sill someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of what god might of said.

[rimce44]

At the end the only truth is yours, the only question who are you?

[spot]

rimce44;1390443 wrote: At the end the only truth is yours, the only question who are you?


Who are you?

[xfrodobagginsx]

littleCJelkton;1390310 wrote: Can you please stop trying the I know you know they know ring-around the rosy game it is getting real old and doesn't work, You just restated what you posted like 3 post ago in different wording and it still doesn't show that your evidence is not payed to be the ruse of evidence by religious Nut-jobs like you that have holy money in their coffers to sin with. So again give me this evidence of yours that is not bought and paid for by powers that will have the evidence rigged to show a certain result. Until then there is no evidence and the Bible is sill someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of someone else's interpretation of what god might of said.


There you go accusing me of doing what in actuality you are the one doing. Do you want to see the evidence or don't you care? It's a simple question.

[littleCJelkton]

xfrodobagginsx;1390657 wrote: There you go accusing me of doing what in actuality you are the one doing. Do you want to see the evidence or don't you care? It's a simple question.
You haven't shown that there is any evidence and you are now reverting from the I know you know he knows game to the no I am not you are game. What immature tactic are you going to use next.

[rajakrsna]

When I died I did not go to heaven. I stayed. There are still so many to convert back to my fold.

[theia]

rajakrsna;1390903 wrote: When I died I did not go to heaven. I stayed. There are still so many to convert back to my fold.


I like this but I'm not sure why...would you expand on it, please?

[Saint_]

I've been out of my body before and seen the back of my own head...does that count?

[rajakrsna]

theia;1390916 wrote: I like this but I'm not sure why...would you expand on it, please?


I can`t leave my devotees behind & looking miserable all their lives. So when I die I do not want to go to heaven yet. I want to stay & lighten them up.

[Lon]

rajakrsna;1390952 wrote: I can`t leave my devotees behind & looking miserable all their lives. So when I die I do not want to go to heaven yet. I want to stay & lighten them up.


How long have you been yanking your devotees chain?

[rajakrsna]

Lon;1390955 wrote: How long have you been yanking your devotees chain?


One of my devotees is my daughter you see in my avatar pic.

[Lon]

rajakrsna;1390958 wrote: One of my devotees is my daughter you see in my avatar pic.


Do most of your devotees eat Baluts?

[rajakrsna]

Lon;1390960 wrote: Do most of your devotees eat Baluts?


Oh, Balut! Boiled unhatched 18 day old chicks inside eggs. Only my Filipino devotees eat them.

[Lon]

rajakrsna;1390962 wrote: Oh, Balut! Boiled unhatched 18 day old chicks inside eggs. Only my Filipino devotees eat them.


Baluts & Beer will give you gas & very wet fa--s.

[rajakrsna]

Lon;1390966 wrote: Baluts & Beer will give you gas & very wet fa--s.


Hope you are not in the field working when it gets you.

[Lon]

rajakrsna;1390969 wrote: Hope you are not in the field working when it gets you.


I'll skip the Baluts and have Lumpia with my beer.

[Gaultjerry36]

new here.. name is jerry .

hope i get a lot of friends in here...

i refer not to die for now..

[littleCJelkton]

Gaultjerry36;1390971 wrote: new here.. name is jerry .

hope i get a lot of friends in here...

i refer not to die for now..


I refer to alot of things but death is not one of them. though if we include a P in that last statement of yours I would agree.

[theia]

Gaultjerry36;1390971 wrote: new here.. name is jerry .

hope i get a lot of friends in here...

i refer not to die for now..


Welcome to FG, jerry :-6

And don't worry, most of us don't pick on other people's typos :wah:

[AnneBoleyn]

Gaultjerry36;1390971 wrote: new here.. name is jerry .

hope i get a lot of friends in here...

i refer not to die for now..
Hi Jerry! It's better to make friends than to die! Of course, that's only my personal opinion.

[xfrodobagginsx]

littleCJelkton;1390898 wrote: You haven't shown that there is any evidence and you are now reverting from the I know you know he knows game to the no I am not you are game. What immature tactic are you going to use next.


Ok then I will show you the evidence.

The Biblical events are not only recorded by the eyewitness accounts (the Bible), but also Secular History.

Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ



Price Tags

TACITUS: (55-117) A.D.)

Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of on of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the word find their center and become popular.”



PLINY THE YOUNGER: (112 A.D.)

Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor who wrote a letter to Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worshiped Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government acknowledged Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and set a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.

“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sand in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to any wicked deeds, not to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor to deny any trust when they should be call to deliver it up, after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food —but food of an ordinary but and innocent kind.”



BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D.)

The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary of the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what is a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They could not deny the miracles but claimed that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact.

“ On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the even of the Passover.”

The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a



LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)

a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.



LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)

Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.

“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”



THALLUS: (52 A.D.)

One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”

Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.



PHLEGON: (1st Century)

A secular historian wrote a history named, “Chronicles.” This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.

“During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.”

Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.



SUETONIUS: (69-140 A.D.)

A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. He refers to Christ and Christians and the “disturbances” caused by them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their tormentors.

“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome].” Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.

Life of Claudius, 25:4.



In another work Suetonius wrote about the fire which devastated Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive in his gardens.

“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.”

Lives of the Caesars, 26.2



TOLEDOTH YESHU: (6 Century)

This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the response of the Jewish community to Christianity. The tradition presented here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE. The text it self is closer to the 14th century.

Mentions the empty tomb and that the Jewish leaders found it empty. That Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Passover and that He claimed to be God. That Jesus performed sorcery, he healed, and that he taught Rabbis. All of this from a hostile source, with the references above it is a historical fact that Jesus did miracles. His enemies could not refute it, rather they explained it away as sorcery!



CELSUS: (2nd Century)

Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the 2nd century.



JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)

Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark:



“As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, “You have conquered, O Galilean,” referring to Jesus Christ.



CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)

Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins.

“Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles.”



IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: (50-107 A.D.)

Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus was all that the apostles has said He was.

“…nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became perfect man strengthens me…We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians.”

While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius. When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions who immediately devoured him.

[xfrodobagginsx]

QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)

Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.

“The deeds of our Savior were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our times.”

Eusebius, IV, III



EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)

Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion of Jesus.



ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.)

Aristides was a second-century Christian believer and philosopher from Athens. This portion of his defense of Christianity was addressed to the Roman Emperor Antonius Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D.

“The Son of the most high God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, descended from heaven, born of a Hebrew Virgin. His flesh he received from the Virgin, and he revealed himself in the human nature as the Son of God. In his goodness which brought the glad tidings, he has won the whole world by his life-giving preaching…He selected twelve apostles and taught the whole world by his mediatorial, light-giving truth.

And he was crucified, being pierced with nails by the Jews; and he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He sent the apostles into all the world and instructed all by divine miracles full of wisdom. Their preaching bears blossoms and fruits to this day, and calls the whole world to illumination.”

Carey, “Aristides,” 68.



JUSTIN MARTYR: (106-167 A.D.)

Justin Martyr is regarded as one of the greatest early Christian apologists. He was born around 100 A.D and was beheaded for his faith in Jesus in 167 A.D. He mentions as facts many things about Jesus and Christianity, such as: The Magi (wise men who brought gifts from Arabia), King Herod, His crucifixion, His garments parted among the Roman soldiers, the apostles leaving him on the night of his arrest, his fulfilled prophecies, His resurrection and His ascending into heaven among many others. These quotes can be found in his debate with Trypho the Jew.



HEGESIPPUS: (2 Century)

Eusebius draws the conclusion that Hegesippus was a Jew that wrote five books called, “Memoirs.” Only fragments remain of his original work in the writings of Eusebius. They show that Hegesippus traveled extensively trying to determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they were accurate, even in the troubled church in Corinth.

“The Corinthian church continued in the true doctrine until Primus became bishop. I mixed with them on my voyage to Rome and spent several days with the Corinthians, during which we were refreshed with the true doctrine. On arrival at Rome I pieced together the succession down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus, Anicetus being succeeded by Soter and he by Eleutherus. In every line of bishops and in every city things accord with the preaching of the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord.”

Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2.



TRAJAN: (53-117 A.D.)

Trajan is a Roman Emperor who wrote a letter [see letter] in response to the Governor of Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger. Pliny needed advice in dealing with “Christians” who renounced their belief in Jesus due to fear of torture and execution.



MACROBIUS: (4th-5th Century)

Pascal (Pensees) mentions a quote of Augustus Caesar as an evidence to the murder of the 7-20 male babies (this is based on the population of Bethlehem in 4-6 B.C., which was 700-1,000 people) by King Herod in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16).

King Herod heard that a king was to be born and his fear and mental instability caused him to kill these male children under two years of age. King Herod killed his Wife, mother in law, and three sons. This is in character with his life of murder and paranoia. King Herod’s reign was described by his enemies as, “He stole to the throne like a fox, ruled like a tiger, and died like a dog.”

Saturnalia, lib. 2, ch.4.



HADRIAN: (106-167 A.D.)

Justin Martyr quotes this Roman Emperor’s letter to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul of Asia Minor. This letter deals with accusations from pagans against the Christians.

“I have received the letter addressed to me by your predecessor Serenius Granianus, a most illustrious man; and this communication I am unwilling to pass over in silence, lest innocent persons be disturbed, and occasion be given to the informers for practicing villainy. Accordingly, if the inhabitants of your province will so far sustain this petition of theirs as to accuse the Christians in some court of law, I do not prohibit them from doing so.

But I will not suffer them to make use of mere entreaties and outcries. For it is far more just, if any one desires to make an accusation, that you give judgment upon it. If, therefore, any one makes the accusation, and furnishes proof that the said men do anything contrary to the laws, you shall adjudge punishments in proportion to the offences.

And this, by Hercules; you shall give special heed to, that if any man shall, through mere calumny, bring an accusation against any of these persons, you shall award to him more severe punishments in proportion to his wickedness.”

Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapters, 68-69.



JUVENAL: (55 AD-127 AD)

Juvenal makes a reference of the tortures of Christians by Nero in Rome.

“But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.”

Satires, 1, lines 147-157.



SENECA: (3 B.C.-65 A.D.)

Seneca mentions the cruelties that Nero imposes upon Christians.

“The other kind of evil comes, so to speak, in the form of a huge parade. Surrounding it is a retinue of swords and fire and chains and a mob of beasts to be let loose upon the disemboweled entrails of men. Picture to yourself under his head the prison, the cross, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat. Think of human limbs torn apart by chariots driven in opposite directions, of the terrible shirt smeared and interwoven with inflammable materials, and of all the other contrivances devised by cruelty, in addition to those which I have mentioned!”

Epistulae Morales, Epistle 14, “On the Reasons for Withdrawing from the World.”



HIEROCLES: (AD 284-305)

A quote by Eusebius preserves some of the text of this lost work of Hierocles, Philalethes or Lover of Truth. In this quote, Hierocles condemns Peter and Paul as sorcerers. Again, their miracles could not be denied, rather they claimed that they used sorcery.

“And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,–men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards.”

Eusebius, The Treatise of Eusebius, ch. 2.



ANTONIUS PIUS: (86 AD to 161 AD)

A letter from the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius to the general assembly in Asia Minor. This letter says that the officials in Aisa Minor were getting upset at the Christians in their province, and that no changes are to be made in Antoninus’ method of dealing with them.

“The Emperor Caesar Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Augustus Pius, Supreme Pontiff, in the fifteenth year of his tribuneship, Consul for the third time, Father of the fatherland, to the Common Assembly of Asia, greeting: I should have thought that the gods themselves would see to it that such offenders should not escape.

For if they had the power, they themselves would much rather punish those who refuse to worship them; but it is you who bring trouble on these persons, and accuse as the opinion of atheists that which they hold, and lay to their charge certain other things which we are unable to prove.

But it would be advantageous to them that they should be thought to die for that of which they are accused, and they conquer you by being lavish of their lives rather than yield that obedience which you require of them. And regarding the earthquakes which have already happened and are now occurring, it is not seemly that you remind us of them, losing heart whenever they occur, and thus set your conduct in contrast with that of these men; for they have much greater confidence towards God than you yourselves have.

And you, indeed, seem at such times to ignore the gods, and you neglect the temples, and make no recognition of the worship of God. And hence you are jealous of those who do serve Him, and persecute them to the death.

Concerning such persons, some others also of the governors of provinces wrote to my most divine father; to whom he replied that they should not at all disturb such persons, unless they were found to be attempting anything against the Roman government. And to myself many have sent intimations regarding such persons, to whom I also replied in pursuance of my father’s judgment.

But if any one has a matter to bring against any person of this class, merely as such a person, let the accused be acquitted of the charge, even though he should be found to be such an one; but let the accuser he amenable to justice.”

Justin Martyr, The First Apology, ch. 70.

[littleCJelkton]

xfrodobagginsx;1391015 wrote: Ok then I will show you the evidence.

The Biblical events are not only recorded by the eyewitness accounts (the Bible), but also Secular History.

Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ



Price Tags

TACITUS: (55-117) A.D.)

Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of on of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the word find their center and become popular.”



PLINY THE YOUNGER: (112 A.D.)

Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor who wrote a letter to Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worshiped Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government acknowledged Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and set a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.

“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sand in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to any wicked deeds, not to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor to deny any trust when they should be call to deliver it up, after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food —but food of an ordinary but and innocent kind.”



BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D.)

The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary of the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what is a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They could not deny the miracles but claimed that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact.

“ On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the even of the Passover.”

The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a



LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)

a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.



LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)

Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.

“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”



THALLUS: (52 A.D.)

One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”

Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.



PHLEGON: (1st Century)

A secular historian wrote a history named, “Chronicles.” This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.

“During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.”

Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.



SUETONIUS: (69-140 A.D.)

A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. He refers to Christ and Christians and the “disturbances” caused by them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their tormentors.

“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome].” Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.

Life of Claudius, 25:4.



In another work Suetonius wrote about the fire which devastated Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive in his gardens.

“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.”

Lives of the Caesars, 26.2



TOLEDOTH YESHU: (6 Century)

This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the response of the Jewish community to Christianity. The tradition presented here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE. The text it self is closer to the 14th century.

Mentions the empty tomb and that the Jewish leaders found it empty. That Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Passover and that He claimed to be God. That Jesus performed sorcery, he healed, and that he taught Rabbis. All of this from a hostile source, with the references above it is a historical fact that Jesus did miracles. His enemies could not refute it, rather they explained it away as sorcery!



CELSUS: (2nd Century)

Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the 2nd century.



JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)

Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark:



“As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, “You have conquered, O Galilean,” referring to Jesus Christ.



CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)

Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins.

“Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles.”



IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: (50-107 A.D.)

Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus was all that the apostles has said He was.

“…nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became perfect man strengthens me…We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians.”

While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius. When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions who immediately devoured him.


I thought I told you to show me evidence this is obviously bits and pieces ripped apart of much broader stories of people in history that are slightly linked to tiny parts of the bible that may have been based on fact.

Wild Bill Hicock got in to Dodge after a tornado ripped past it do i think he is pecos bill No. So please show me the evidence not the things as i have said before that are refereneces to what he said about what that guys said, about what she said, about what they said, about he said about jesus/god

[xfrodobagginsx]

Bill Wiese had a Near Death Experience where he literally went to hell and came back to tell about what he saw there. He wrote a best selling book and tells his story here:



23 MINUTES IN HELL (DVD full length video) by Bill Wiese Testimony of hell, 23 questions about hell - YouTube

[littleCJelkton]

xfrodobagginsx;1391213 wrote: Bill Wiese had a Near Death Experience where he literally went to hell and came back to tell about what he saw there. He wrote a best selling book and tells his story here:



23 MINUTES IN HELL (DVD full length video) by Bill Wiese Testimony of hell, 23 questions about hell - YouTube


Uh he just spouts out a bunch of biblical verses which are again references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references..references to references.. to references of what might of happened and all his evidence is not objective it is all subjective an internal and incabable of proving anything to anybody other than himself who may or may not be correct on what he interpreted

[xfrodobagginsx]

littleCJelkton;1391220 wrote: Uh he just spouts out a bunch of biblical verses which are again references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references.. references to references..references to references.. to references of what might of happened and all his evidence is not objective it is all subjective an internal and incabable of proving anything to anybody other than himself who may or may not be correct on what he interpreted


Give me one piece of history that isn't a reference to something that someone said or did. Stop putting your hands in your ears and chanting LalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalala

[xfrodobagginsx]

The man is telling you what happened to him and using biblical references to back up his story as legitimate. He is merely demonstrating to people how his story harmonizes with the word of God. Anything that contradicts the bible cannot be from God.

[littleCJelkton]

xfrodobagginsx;1391373 wrote: Give me one piece of history that isn't a reference to something that someone said or did. Stop putting your hands in your ears and chanting LalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalalaLalalalalalalalaalalalalalalalalalala


Yes the printed documents and live television feed of the war in Iraq Afgainistan Vietnam WWII an an WWI are refering to people actually there during the war not someone refering to a person or refers to that document and so on and so forth..., until you get to the person who actually was there. And you have physical proof that there was a war in those places but you have no physical scientific proof of GOD or Heaven only references to references to references to references to references to references to references to references to what someone may have though about god which may or may not have been actual revelation about God or heaven.

[littleCJelkton]

using something that refers to a hundred different references that refers to a thousand more about a million different true and untrue stories does not back anything up it contradicts it self with convolution

[xfrodobagginsx]

littleCJelkton;1391381 wrote: Yes the printed documents and live television feed of the war in Iraq Afgainistan Vietnam WWII an an WWI are refering to people actually there during the war not someone refering to a person or refers to that document and so on and so forth..., until you get to the person who actually was there. And you have physical proof that there was a war in those places but you have no physical scientific proof of GOD or Heaven only references to references to references to references to references to references to references to references to what someone may have though about god which may or may not have been actual revelation about God or heaven.


The people who wrote the Bible WERE actually there. It's the same thing, but as you know, they didn't have television back then. I trust their testimony as you trust the testimony of the Newscasters who are in Afghanastan. I would call someone rising from the dead, walking on water, healing the sick, turnng water revelations from God.

[littleCJelkton]

xfrodobagginsx;1392677 wrote: The people who wrote the Bible WERE actually there. It's the same thing, but as you know, they didn't have television back then. I trust their testimony as you trust the testimony of the Newscasters who are in Afghanastan. I would call someone rising from the dead, walking on water, healing the sick, turnng water revelations from God.


Some of the people were actually there and I don't call them revelations I call them over exaggerated stories of just a few actual events in order to convey a larger message of morality and right and wrong The characters of the Tall Tales and the stories of King Arthur are loosely based on real people too, but I don't believe that half the stuff in those stories (maybe more or less given the exact tale) is true. Nor, do I believe that a person's character is measured by their belief of this or that being true but is measure by how well they follow the guidelines to morality, equality, and basics of right vs wrong that those stories teach us.

[xfrodobagginsx]

littleCJelkton;1391381 wrote: Yes the printed documents and live television feed of the war in Iraq Afgainistan Vietnam WWII an an WWI are refering to people actually there during the war not someone refering to a person or refers to that document and so on and so forth..., until you get to the person who actually was there. And you have physical proof that there was a war in those places but you have no physical scientific proof of GOD or Heaven only references to references to references to references to references to references to references to references to what someone may have though about god which may or may not have been actual revelation about God or heaven.


Yes you do have phycial proof of God. It's all around you. The very fact that things exist proves God's existence since in contradicts the laws of science for matter and energy to exist in the first place. The laws of thermodynamics and conservation of energy state that matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed, yet matter and energy exists.

[xfrodobagginsx]

littleCJelkton;1392817 wrote: Some of the people were actually there and I don't call them revelations I call them over exaggerated stories of just a few actual events in order to convey a larger message of morality and right and wrong The characters of the Tall Tales and the stories of King Arthur are loosely based on real people too, but I don't believe that half the stuff in those stories (maybe more or less given the exact tale) is true. Nor, do I believe that a person's character is measured by their belief of this or that being true but is measure by how well they follow the guidelines to morality, equality, and basics of right vs wrong that those stories teach us.


See, now you are claiming to know more than the eyewitnesses who were actually there. You weren't, they were.

[littleCJelkton]

xfrodobagginsx;1392837 wrote: See, now you are claiming to know more than the eyewitnesses who were actually there. You weren't, they were.


So you believe that Pecos Bill Rode Tornadoes? Or that there is a lady in a lake with a magic sword in England somewhere

[Saint_]

Not to throw a hammer into the works, but isn't it true that the Bible wasn't written down on paper, and was passed by word of mouth for over two hundred years?