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Islam; Religion of peace, eh? Multiculturalism? You can keep 'em!! Anyone who still thinks 'cultural enrichment' is a good idea had better take a look at this...

COMING SOON TO A STREET NEAR YOU.



The longer we refuse to accept that multiculturalism isn't working, or EVER going to work, the worse it will be for us over time. Time to 'wake up and smell the coffee'.

Poor Sweden is now paying the price for 'open door immigration'.

Stockholm riots leave Sweden's dreams of perfect society up in smoke - Telegraph

Smaug;1487353 wrote: Islam; Religion of peace, eh? Multiculturalism? You can keep 'em!! Anyone who still thinks 'cultural enrichment' is a good idea had better take a look at this...

COMING SOON TO A STREET NEAR YOU.



The longer we refuse to accept that multiculturalism isn't working, or EVER going to work, the worse it will be for us over time. Time to 'wake up and smell the coffee'.


It would but everybody has to accept the basic premise that if they are free to live their life as they wish then so is everybody else including members of their own family. It will never work so long as religion has any influence.

It's an ideal something that is worth trying for and just because a few refuse to acceot it is not a reason to allow prejudice and hatred to win. You meet a bigot you don't have to match the bigotry.

If God doesn't exist then neither does satan - what kind of idiot god creates satan anyway.

You're english I'm scots different cultures that get along most of the time.

Sharia Law, and it's draconian, un-democratic edicts...

Is this what Britain wants?

We should not forget that there are some 22000 Christian churches around the world. I'm talking about all of the offshoots ot just the church in general. Some are more extremest in view. Not all Christians eat the same flavor of icecream. The same is true for Islam as well. Most Muslims just want to live in peace with their neighbours just as it is in Christianity. We could add other fiths like Buddhism or Hinduism etc.

Generally speaking, Christianity has left behind the 4th century dogmas of stoning people for not worshipping on Sunday, or for being gay, etc.Islam has not, especially extreme Islam! Sure, there are definitely a small number of extreme Christians around who are capable of the same crimes as the extreme Islamists, but the number of extreme Islamists is far greater than those of a 'Christian' persuasion, I fancy.

That may be but I cannot say that with any degree of assurance. The Muslims I have met have all been descent folks who want to live and let live. Proselytizing is really not part of their lives. The same with Christian extremists I do not know how many exist but there are thousands of extremists. They many not all act like barbarians but some Christian preacher called for the death of Chavez of Venezuelan president. He has the nerve to call himself a Christian??????. Christian triumphalism is alive and well and pathetic.

Any Religion that professes Peace & uses Violence to enforce their views is Hypocritical & Pathetic and rather than furthering the cause of Peace, sows the seeds of Hatred & Resentment. This has been the way of Religion ever since Religion was invented & is unlikely to change at any time in the (foreseeable) future.

I should add that we need to take into consideration the Inquisition, the crusades and a host of others. Forgot to mention the Christian re constructionists. They believe that homosexuals should be disposed of as well as those who oppose them etc etc. They are intent on murder.

Ted;1487899 wrote: I should add that we need to take into consideration the Inquisition, the crusades and a host of others. Forgot to mention the Christian re constructionists. They believe that homosexuals should be disposed of as well as those who oppose them etc etc. They are intent on murder.
That's why I said 'Any' Religion. Religions are all as bad as each other - or at least the ones based around the Allah / Jehovah God figure. All variations on a theme of the same character, yet all so vehemently opposed to each other.

All the above (FourPart, Ted) are sound arguments, in my book. Some of the many reasons I'm a Pagan, I guess. I would describe myself as a 'Goat', rather than a 'Sheep'. I apologise if that sounds vaguely insulting; it's not meant to be, though.

I don't blame a religion for the misbehavior of some. Religions founded on justice and compassion have good cores. Don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Ted;1487956 wrote: I don't blame a religion for the misbehavior of some. Religions founded on justice and compassion have good cores. Don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


In all honesty, the question of whether religion is good or bad for us has no answer-it's down to individuals, their behavior and interpretations, TBH. ANYTHING can be bad for us if it is misused or abused. Religion has got rather a lot of vunerabilities in this area, though-( do as I say, or burn in hell), shared by Christian AND Islamic 'priests'.

Smaug;1487857 wrote: Generally speaking, Christianity has left behind the 4th century dogmas of stoning people for not worshipping on Sunday, or for being gay, etc.Islam has not, especially extreme Islam! Sure, there are definitely a small number of extreme Christians around who are capable of the same crimes as the extreme Islamists, but the number of extreme Islamists is far greater than those of a 'Christian' persuasion, I fancy.


Why call them fourth century dogmas? We were still doing much the same in the sixteenth century.

Remember, Islam is six hundred years behind us in their evolution - is it surprising that the act the way we did six hundred years ago?

In a research project and her subsequent book "The Great Transformation" Karen Armstrong has shown that more deaths have occurred in this world by so called atheists and non theistic people like Lenin, Pol Pot, and a host of others have resulted in more untimely deaths then any religion. This is not to say there have been none caused by those who are religiously based such as the Crusades.

Bryn Mawr;1488472 wrote: Why call them fourth century dogmas? We were still doing much the same in the sixteenth century.

Remember, Islam is six hundred years behind us in their evolution - is it surprising that the act the way we did six hundred years ago?


A poor excuse. It's not that they live in a bubble, we all interact, they (except maybe in villages, but even they have cellphones & other access to technology) live here, travel back & forth, their leaders have certainly enjoyed life in the West. Yes, it is surprising they act like it's six hundred years ago. Something else is in play here, & it's not that Islam is the youngest of the God of Abraham faction.

According to Karen Armstrong Islam like all of the great faiths were founded on the two principles of Justice and Compassion. All of these faiths have acquired their share of extremists.

AnneBoleyn;1488474 wrote: A poor excuse. It's not that they live in a bubble, we all interact, they (except maybe in villages, but even they have cellphones & other access to technology) live here, travel back & forth, their leaders have certainly enjoyed life in the West. Yes, it is surprising they act like it's six hundred years ago. Something else is in play here, & it's not that Islam is the youngest of the God of Abraham faction.


As to the first point, there's inertia in all societies and all of that is a very recent overlay.

I see a lot of parallels between the behaviours of Islamic extremists now and most Christians six hundred years ago - the one difference is that most Muslims of the current era are not fundamentalists whereas we would class almost all Christians of six hundred years ago in that way.

Your idea of parallel evolution, however, assumes the starting point of any new religion as being in the same era as the oldest one began. I was born in 1960 - I grew up with 60s values. My Brother was born in 1971 - he grew up with 70s values. By your logic of parallel evolution, despite having been born in 1971, he would have been brought up with 60s values.

Bryn Mawr;1488472 wrote: Why call them fourth century dogmas? We were still doing much the same in the sixteenth century.

Remember, Islam is six hundred years behind us in their evolution - is it surprising that the act the way we did six hundred years ago?


They've had time to catch up. There's no real excuse for the barbaric principles of fundamentalism in today's world- they've got to stop living in the past if they want to survive into the future.

FourPart;1488511 wrote: Your idea of parallel evolution, however, assumes the starting point of any new religion as being in the same era as the oldest one began. I was born in 1960 - I grew up with 60s values. My Brother was born in 1971 - he grew up with 70s values. By your logic of parallel evolution, despite having been born in 1971, he would have been brought up with 60s values.


Totally disagree with your analogy - you grew up in a western Christian society with 60's values, your brother grew up in a western Christian society with 70's values. What I'm talking about is the evolution of the values of the society, not the individual within that society - you cannot compare your upbringing with that of a tribesman in the Hindu Kush for example because the society in the Hindu Kush is fudalistic Muslim rather than western Christian.

Smaug;1488540 wrote: They've had time to catch up. There's no real excuse for the barbaric principles of fundamentalism in today's world- they've got to stop living in the past if they want to survive into the future.


It's easy for you to tell them how they have to live their lives but, in reality, societies cannot change that quickly - the children grow up as their parents grew up with a lot of inertia to changes in that basic society.

Bryn Mawr;1488581 wrote: It's easy for you to tell them how they have to live their lives but, in reality, societies cannot change that quickly - the children grow up as their parents grew up with a lot of inertia to changes in that basic society.


'It takes two to tango', as they say. WE have to stop interfering in their native culture, and THEY have to stop trying to kill, maim, and blow people up!(The fundamentalists, that is...)

TBH, there is fault on both sides,(not helped by our corrupt political animals, or their militant Mullahs) and we all have to learn to settle these differences peaceably, rather than at gunpoint. Wishful thinking maybe, but I think that both sides need to move in this direction, otherwise vendetta and revenge will become the norm, and there'll be no sorting it. Yes, it may take time, but someone's got to 'start the ball rolling'....

It takes 1 to make a war, but 2 to make a friendship....

I do not know much about the history of Islam but I can speak to Christianity. The western Christianity is not the Christianity of the first 300 to 400 years of it's existence. It is not the Christianity of the apostles. I can imagine the same thing for Islam.

Ted;1488719 wrote: I do not know much about the history of Islam but I can speak to Christianity. The western Christianity is not the Christianity of the first 300 to 400 years of it's existence. It is not the Christianity of the apostles. I can imagine the same thing for Islam.


Islam is like christianity in that you can lok at the history of botyh religions and see how they have been taken on board and usd by the would ukling classes to manipulate and pursue their own agenda. Islam might have been a religion iof peace olnce but that lasted less than a generation but holy war is a great way tio get people to join with you and attack neighbouring tribes. Same with christianity if you want a lesson on how to cynically use a religion just look at the histpory of what was left in the bible.

Don't suppose you will though as if you had already you would no longer be religious. It's all made up.

No-one can be forced to convert at the point of a gun. They can be made to go through the motions, but no amount of force will change what is really in their hearts - quite the opposite.

The problem is judging the past based on the present. Many atrocities have been committed by all of the great faiths. But we must keep in mind the time and location of these events. For example the Christian crusaders for a good part thought was they were doing was correct. The inquisitors also thought at the time they were doing the right thing. Hindsight is a wonderful thing as long as we to not fall back into this atrocities in an effort to push one group to accepting one particular faith. Another example is the veneration of the relics of early Christian saints. They believed that God somehow was available to and his power resided in the saints. Thus they wanted these relics and felt that they to could gain some of God's power by holding or touching the relic.