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xfrodobagginsx;1505780 wrote: So, then finding the chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea is somehow not evidence. Are those photographs not evidence too?


They were found in the Gulf of Aqaba. That is technically not The Red Sea, any more than the Gulf of Mexico is the Atlantic Ocean.

Besides, if the Israelites were leaving Egypt, from probably around Memphis, on the Nile River, going to Sinai, how would they have found their way to Aqaba?

LarsMac;1505806 wrote: They were found in the Gulf of Aqaba. That is technically not The Red Sea, any more than the Gulf of Mexico is the Atlantic Ocean.

Besides, if the Israelites were leaving Egypt, from probably around Memphis, on the Nile River, going to Sinai, how would they have found their way to Aqaba?


The pattern that they traveled was very irregular. It certainly wasn't the quickest path. It doesn't take 40 years in the desert to reach the promise land, even on foot. God was directing them around so that He could build their faith in Him. Why else would thousands of chariot wheels be in the Red Sea?

xfrodobagginsx;1505836 wrote: The pattern that they traveled was very irregular. It certainly wasn't the quickest path. It doesn't take 40 years in the desert to reach the promise land, even on foot. God was directing them around so that He could build their faith in Him. Why else would thousands of chariot wheels be in the Red Sea?


Thousands, now, is it?

Somehow, I doubt that the Egyptians (assumed owners of all those chariot wheels) followed them around for those forty years.

Besides, your timing is off.

Israelites left Egypt. after a few days, it seemed

Pharoah regretted letting them go, and called out the army to bring them home.

Israelites camped near Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea.. apparently near Mt Zephon

Pharoah caught up with them.

Moses parted the sea

Israelites crossed,

Egyptians followed,

Sea came back

Egyptians drowned

This would appear to be more in the Gulf of Suez, than Aqaba.

From there the wandered in the Sinai Desert and to mt Horeb, or Sinai.

it was after that they they wandered the desert for 40 years.

Sorry. Gulf of Aqaba really does not fit the narrative.

Doesn't really matter then how the chariot wheels got there.

Perhaps the Egyptians became known for their excellent wheelwrights, and the Babylonian King ordered a few thousand for his Chariots via Amazon, and the UPS ship hauling them was sunk by a German U-Boat, spilling them into the Gulf.

(weak, I know, but it seems as plausible as your story.)

LarsMac;1505839 wrote: Thousands, now, is it?

Somehow, I doubt that the Egyptians (assumed owners of all those chariot wheels) followed them around for those forty years.

Besides, your timing is off.

Israelites left Egypt. after a few days, it seemed

Pharoah regretted letting them go, and called out the army to bring them home.

Israelites camped near Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea.. apparently near Mt Zephon

Pharoah caught up with them.

Moses parted the sea

Israelites crossed,

Egyptians followed,

Sea came back

Egyptians drowned

This would appear to be more in the Gulf of Suez, than Aqaba.

From there the wandered in the Sinai Desert and to mt Horeb, or Sinai.

it was after that they they wandered the desert for 40 years.

Sorry. Gulf of Aqaba really does not fit the narrative.

Doesn't really matter then how the chariot wheels got there.

Perhaps the Egyptians became known for their excellent wheelwrights, and the Babylonian King ordered a few thousand for his Chariots via Amazon, and the UPS ship hauling them was sunk by a German U-Boat, spilling them into the Gulf.

(weak, I know, but it seems as plausible as your story.)


But since your weren't actually there, you don't know. You are speculating. I think the chariot wheels are ample evidence to refute your speculations.

xfrodobagginsx;1505858 wrote: But since your weren't actually there, you don't know. You are speculating. I think the chariot wheels are ample evidence to refute your speculations.


I took all of that directly out of your your unerring source, The Bible. Exodus 13, 14, and 15. (KJV, and NIV)

You're not now going to tell me that the Bible might be mistaken about that, are you?

LarsMac;1505862 wrote: I took all of that directly out of your your unerring source, The Bible. Exodus 13, 14, and 15. (KJV, and NIV)

You're not now going to tell me that the Bible might be mistaken about that, are you?


You don't know the timeline of the events and you don't know the location of the crossing.

xfrodobagginsx;1505875 wrote: You don't know the timeline of the events and you don't know the location of the crossing.


Well, if you read the Bible, it seems pretty darned clear.

(Ex 14:1-2)

1.And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they turn and encamp before Pihahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, over against Baalzephon: before it shall ye encamp by the sea.

Then the story goes on about how they crossed there, and traveled to the twelve wells of Elim.

Also, it is clear how long it took them to travel from Egypt to Mt Sinai. About 3 months (Ex 19:1). Figuring that that crowd of people might average 6 miles a day at best. it would take the 50 days steady walking to make that trip. They might have made better time on some days, but the Bible also makes it clear that they did not travel every day. The stopped and camped for a few days at some places.

I think we can agree that they did not have time to walk all the way to the East side of the Gulf of Aqaba, just to cross it and go back east to Sinai. Mmm. Yeah, that makes no sense at all, now does it?

That part of thed story is myth.

The Bible does not present history it is plainly a religious book.

Still no answer to the queestion of the location of heaven. I guess the literalists simply don't want even to try.

LarsMac;1505877 wrote: Well, if you read the Bible, it seems pretty darned clear.

(Ex 14:1-2)

1.And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they turn and encamp before Pihahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, over against Baalzephon: before it shall ye encamp by the sea.

Then the story goes on about how they crossed there, and traveled to the twelve wells of Elim.

Also, it is clear how long it took them to travel from Egypt to Mt Sinai. About 3 months (Ex 19:1). Figuring that that crowd of people might average 6 miles a day at best. it would take the 50 days steady walking to make that trip. They might have made better time on some days, but the Bible also makes it clear that they did not travel every day. The stopped and camped for a few days at some places.

I think we can agree that they did not have time to walk all the way to the East side of the Gulf of Aqaba, just to cross it and go back east to Sinai. Mmm. Yeah, that makes no sense at all, now does it?


Many things that God directs His people don't seem to make sense. Many times you don't realize why He directs things a certain way until much later and many times, we won't know in this life. Why would it take 40 years of traveling in the desert to reach the promise land? God used that time to mold His people.

Ted;1505905 wrote: Still no answer to the queestion of the location of heaven. I guess the literalists simply don't want even to try.


I have already addressed this. There are 3 heavens known actually. The first is the Atmosphere, the second being outer space and all that is contained therein, and the 3rd heaven sits outside of this physical universe. I personally believe that it is a spiritual place. Paul was there and described what he saw. Did you ever read his description of it?

xfrodobagginsx;1505944 wrote: Many things that God directs His people don't seem to make sense. Many times you don't realize why He directs things a certain way until much later and many times, we won't know in this life. Why would it take 40 years of traveling in the desert to reach the promise land? God used that time to mold His people.


Do try to keep up, here.

The Pharoah's army met their demise shortly after the exodus began. Like within a few days. It took the Israelis three months to get to Mt Sinai. The 40 years in the desert was much after the visit to Mount Sinai. All that is pretty well explained. You 're not actually suggesting that the Egyptians wandered about the desert chasing the Israelites for 40 years, just to take a swim in the Gulf of Aqaba, are you?

This idea that we can't understand God is just another cope out. . The stories are midrash and myth along with poetry and short stories. The book of Job is a failed attempt to explain evil.

Heaven is a hope for the future with all that the word "hope" meeans.. But just imagine the New Jerusallem comming down ouot of the sky. I hope it comes comp0lete with infraastructure. Where would we put all the sewage??? Must add in here that Xfrod has talked with Paul "up there"??? We do havve places for those who hear things in their head and need some help. LOL

LarsMac;1505946 wrote: Do try to keep up, here.

The Pharoah's army met their demise shortly after the exodus began. Like within a few days. It took the Israelis three months to get to Mt Sinai. The 40 years in the desert was much after the visit to Mount Sinai. All that is pretty well explained. You 're not actually suggesting that the Egyptians wandered about the desert chasing the Israelites for 40 years, just to take a swim in the Gulf of Aqaba, are you?


You don't know how long it was. I never said that they chased them for 40 years. I know that the 40 years in the desert was long after the visit to Mt. Sinai, but it doesn't take 40 years to get from Mt. Sinai to Israel now does it? That's the point. God didn't take them straight to Israel. He made them wander in the desert for a reason. The gulf of Aqaba IS part of the Red Sea. There is no reason to believe that they didn't cross there. Stop kidding yourself. And the Gulf of Mexico IS the Atlantic Ocean. It's all part of the same body of water and you know it.

xfrodobagginsx;1506059 wrote: You don't know how long it was. I never said that they chased them for 40 years. I know that the 40 years in the desert was long after the visit to Mt. Sinai, but it doesn't take 40 years to get from Mt. Sinai to Israel now does it? That's the point. God didn't take them straight to Israel. He made them wander in the desert for a reason. The gulf of Aqaba IS part of the Red Sea. There is no reason to believe that they didn't cross there. Stop kidding yourself. And the Gulf of Mexico IS the Atlantic Ocean. It's all part of the same body of water and you know it.


Well, perhaps at some time the Israelites made it to the Gulf of Aqaba during their wanderings after the visit to Mt Sinai, but they didn't do it in the few days before the Egyptian Army caught up with them, and were dispatched to the sea.

Besides, the 40 years in the wilderness was after he brought them to the land, and the spies that Moses sent out gave a bad report. That was over a year after they had left Egypt, and drowned the Egyptian Army in the sea.

Man, don't you read the Bible?

You're the one that brought up the Chariot wheels in the Gulf of Aqaba. You should know the time line better than I do. You're the one who claims the inerrant nature of the Bible. And yet, here you are telling us the Bible is inaccurate, or incorrect about such a simple detail?

You should probably stop talking/writing for a while and go study some more. You need it more than anyone reading this thread. God Bless you, Brother. good luck with your studies.

The story is myth but may relate to the expulsion of the Hyksos from the Nile delta. An anothjer myth is the stone tablets story.

Ted;1506097 wrote: The story is myth but may relate to the expulsion of the Hyksos from the Nile delta. An anothjer myth is the stone tablets story.


In the context of this discussion, myth, Midrash, fireside story, or hard cold facts, it's all irrelevant because the guy who believes it doesn't seem to know the story.

LarsMac;1506062 wrote: Well, perhaps at some time the Israelites made it to the Gulf of Aqaba during their wanderings after the visit to Mt Sinai, but they didn't do it in the few days before the Egyptian Army caught up with them, and were dispatched to the sea.

How do you know? Were you there? The chariot wheels being there, is evidence that that is where they crossed.

Besides, the 40 years in the wilderness was after he brought them to the land, and the spies that Moses sent out gave a bad report. That was over a year after they had left Egypt, and drowned the Egyptian Army in the sea.

Man, don't you read the Bible?

The 40 years in the wilderness really has nothing to do with the crossing. My only point is that just because there is a shorter route, doesn't mean that God didn't direct His people to go that way. Man you lack understanding.



You're the one that brought up the Chariot wheels in the Gulf of Aqaba. You should know the time line better than I do. You're the one who claims the inerrant nature of the Bible. And yet, here you are telling us the Bible is inaccurate, or incorrect about such a simple detail?

I believe that it's a good possibility that those are the wheels of the Egyptian army. Yes. How else would they get at the bottom of the red sea and from the same era? Yes the Bible is God's word. I never said that the Bible was inaccurate. You are trying to say that there is no way that Israel crossed there, when you don't know where they crossed.

You should probably stop talking/writing for a while and go study some more. You need it more than anyone reading this thread. God Bless you, Brother. good luck with your studies.

Honestly, I think you need the Holy Spirit to show you the truth. Ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior and place your faith in Him, believing that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins.




My responses are in bold above.

XFrodo;1506062 wrote: Well, perhaps at some time the Israelites made it to the Gulf of Aqaba during their wanderings after the visit to Mt Sinai, but they didn't do it in the few days before the Egyptian Army caught up with them, and were dispatched to the sea.

How do you know? Were you there? The chariot wheels being there, is evidence that that is where they crossed.




Some wheels assumed to be from chariots are not proof of anything except that some wheels were found in the water.

It is quite a leap of logic to presume that they are/were Egyptian. And since you don't believe in Carbon 14 dating, then that would hardly do for proof of their age.

You have nothing here.

XFrodo;1506062 wrote:

Besides, the 40 years in the wilderness was after he brought them to the land, and the spies that Moses sent out gave a bad report. That was over a year after they had left Egypt, and drowned the Egyptian Army in the sea.

Man, don't you read the Bible?

The 40 years in the wilderness really has nothing to do with the crossing. My only point is that just because there is a shorter route, doesn't mean that God didn't direct His people to go that way. Man you lack understanding.


Dude, They were walking. From the beginning to Nuweibaa is about 330 miles. You really believe that these people, with all their possessions, elderly and children walked over a hundred miles a day? I looked at the web site where this discussion seems to belong. Those people are playing fast and loose with the Word, and have changed the geography to fit the story, just so the chariot wheels fit their interpretation. Grand silliness.

And the Bible was pretty specific about where they went those first weeks after they left, and how long it took them to get to the Mountain where they received the Law.



LarsMac;1506062 wrote:

You're the one that brought up the Chariot wheels in the Gulf of Aqaba. You should know the time line better than I do. You're the one who claims the inerrant nature of the Bible. And yet, here you are telling us the Bible is inaccurate, or incorrect about such a simple detail?

I believe that it's a good possibility that those are the wheels of the Egyptian army. Yes. How else would they get at the bottom of the red sea and from the same era? Yes the Bible is God's word. I never said that the Bible was inaccurate. You are trying to say that there is no way that Israel crossed there, when you don't know where they crossed.




What you believe about the wheels is actually irrelevant. And your logic is backwards. Because they found wheels in the gulf of Aqaba, those wheels have to be from Egypt? Sorry. Did I say "logic"? There is not evidence to support that those wheels cam from the Egyptian Army that pursued the Israelites. Your grasping at straws. The Bible says exactly where they crossed. And that was not at Nuweibaa. So stop arguing with me about it, and go read Exodus. You can see for yourself.

LarsMac;1506062 wrote:

You should probably stop talking/writing for a while and go study some more. You need it more than anyone reading this thread. God Bless you, Brother. good luck with your studies.

Honestly, I think you need the Holy Spirit to show you the truth. Ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior and place your faith in Him, believing that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins.




Honestly? Really?

I'm sorry, but your words are empty. I'm sure that you mean well, but you know not what you are saying. And you have not a clue of my relationship with the Spirit.

K thanks

Ted;1505903 wrote: The Bible does not present history it is plainly a religious book.


The Bible is history.

Ted;1506097 wrote: The story is myth but may relate to the expulsion of the Hyksos from the Nile delta. An anothjer myth is the stone tablets story.


Have you never just let go and run with the spirit of the discussion?

xfrodobagginsx;1506135 wrote: The Bible is history.


It will be one day.:yh_rotfl

Fuzzy;1506140 wrote: It will be one day.:yh_rotfl


You mean when Christ comes back physically to the earth and rules and reigns for eternity? Well actually His word will still remain... Lu 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

xfrodobagginsx;1506162 wrote: You mean when Christ comes back physically to the earth and rules and reigns for eternity?


No, I mean when the last person on earth finally realises that it is all just a huge hoax.

Lars. Always.

What I see happening in the Christian faith is exactly what I expected. We need to head towards a "Religionless Christianity" or "Christianity After Religion> The Biblical stories have been misunderstood for centuries and with todays fund of knowledge the stories if read literally become dan object of ridicule. They are unbelievable in the literal sense and that is why the church is in decline. Even the fundamentalists though they deny that but the statistics do not lie. Many modern theologians are calling for a new reformation.

Taking some of the stories literally has led to some interesting fictional movies though' Think about the virgin birth. We or at least most of us know how babies come about. No virgin birth or all of the other embellishments that are added.

Fuzzy;1506189 wrote: No, I mean when the last person on earth finally realises that it is all just a huge hoax.


Not gonna happen because it's true.

Stephen J Gould admits that there are no transitional fossils, AKA, Missing links.



That quote!—about the missing transitional fossils - creation.com

Either he said that before they were located or he is not telling us the truth. I suspect he is speaking from before the discoveries. Or he was just plane wrong. as wass Jesus about the apocalypse. Stephen was wrong or he like a lot of other stuff printed here is taken out of context and made to say what it does not say. That is what literalists have done to the scriptures.

Ted;1506236 wrote: Either he said that before they were located or he is not telling us the truth. I suspect he is speaking from before the discoveries. Or he was just plane wrong. as wass Jesus about the apocalypse. Stephen was wrong or he like a lot of other stuff printed here is taken out of context and made to say what it does not say. That is what literalists have done to the scriptures.


No, they weren't located then nor are they located now. See, all of the examples given by evolutionists are examples of lateral adaptation within the species, not one animal evolving into another. In order for Darwinian evolution to occur, there must be an increase in genetic information, which has never been shown to happen ever. Take it from Richard Dawkins:

Fuzzy;1506189 wrote: No, I mean when the last person on earth finally realises that it is all just a huge hoax.


The sad thing is that millions and millions will wake up in hell, realizing that evolution was a huge hoax.

xfrodobagginsx;1506257 wrote: The sad thing is that millions and millions will wake up in hell, realizing that evolution was a huge hoax.


We shall see.

xfrodobagginsx;1506257 wrote: The sad thing is that millions and millions will wake up in hell, realizing that evolution was a huge hoax.


You really have to start coming up with concrete proof instead of quoting your silly book and fake historians etc etc.

Isn't it rather comical that this whole argument about chariot wheels having been found at the bottom of the Red Sea are proof of Moses parting the Red Sea, as narrated in the Bible. It fills a need that the Bible Punchers yearn for, and they grab onto it as fast as possible without so much as checking their facts. The whole story about the Chariot Wheels is a known HOAX.

FALSE: Chariot Wheels Found at the Bottom of the Red Sea : snopes.com

Scientists are trying hard to find out about life, the universe and everything.

Religionists have known everything for centuries.

They knew that the earth is flat, the sun orbited plant earth, the red sea is full of chariot wheels and that god made it so.:wah:

LarsMac;1506259 wrote: We shall see.Ironic!

I do agree that it is hard to fathom accepting the facts in the Bible literally. Once again the need to hang onto securitty where ever they think it isw.If folks want to believe in talking snakes, chariots of fire taking a human bact to heaven where it is not or Adam and Eve go for it I do go to church once a week but I do not hang my brain on the hat rack aas I go in. The literal reading leads to all kinds of absurdities. It is literalism that will ultimately destroy the Christian faith. In fact a voice from heaven has just told me that.

Ted;1506375 wrote: I do agree that it is hard to fathom accepting the facts in the Bible literally. Once again the need to hang onto securitty where ever they think it isw.If folks want to believe in talking snakes, chariots of fire taking a human bact to heaven where it is not or Adam and Eve go for it I do go to church once a week but I do not hang my brain on the hat rack aas I go in. The literal reading leads to all kinds of absurdities. It is literalism that will ultimately destroy the Christian faith. In fact a voice from heaven has just told me that.


Well, we have to start with facts.

fact

fakt/Submit

noun

a thing that is indisputably the case.

"the most commonly known fact about hedgehogs is that they have fleas"

synonyms: reality, actuality, certainty; More

used in discussing the significance of something that is the case.

noun: the fact that

"the real problem facing them is the fact that their funds are being cut"

a piece of information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.

synonyms: detail, piece of information, particular, item, specific, element, point, factor, feature, characteristic, ingredient, circumstance, aspect, facet; information

"every fact was double-checked"


Literalism is definitely the bane of Christianity.

Soft Tissue Found In Supposed 195 MILLION Year Old Fossil:



Fossilised protein has been discovered inside a 195-million-year-old dinosaur bone - ScienceAlert



Does it ever occur to the evolutionists that soft tissue would break down in less than 1 million years?

This Article Gives The Creationist Side Of The Story:

Dinosaur soft tissue - creation.com

Hey there is a new subsystem. We can now talk about "alternative facts" LOL Now we even seem to have them in evolution.

Ted;1506424 wrote: Hey there is a new subsystem. We can now talk about "alternative facts" LOL Now we even seem to have them in evolution.


Alternative facts like in when a Prosecutor gives his side of the story and the Defense gives his side of the story. Both are based on the facts, but both can give you a completely different story.

The interesting thing is that one says the car was blue and the other says it was read.??????

Back to the theme of this thread. Jesus is eported to have said "the Kingdom is within you". This means it would seem to me that the kingdom is not up there but inside each person.

Ted;1506455 wrote: Back to the theme of this thread. Jesus is eported to have said "the Kingdom is within you". This means it would seem to me that the kingdom is not up there but inside each person.


Who reported it and can we trust him not to fib?

kScholars have been saying this for years. It is part of the faith history. Can it be accurate? I think it can but we have no way of knowing the exact words of Jesus. That is the problem of literalism. One has to ask what did he mean by that. I think one thing he was saying the kingdom is here and now andw within you. You can have the peace (internally) that Jesus offered.. It is about how we live our lives and treat others.

What we know of Jesus sayings is a big question. What we do know is he was concerned about the oppressed, the old folks, poverty etc I cannot say what happens in the future but I claim to be a Christian because I try to follow in his steps on those issues.. My feeling is that Jesus was a very powerful personality that upset the Roman leadership and thus he was crucified for sedition, treason, etc. He was a good man and probably like Hiter a good orator. What kind of man was he that we still honour him 200 years later. It has nothing to do with religion and that will pass away one day as we head into "Religionless Christianity" Detrich Bonhoeffer

I attended a forum where a Jewish Lady spoke about Judaism and was very adamant the=at Judaism was not a religiion but was in fact a way of life. It seems to me that Christianity as an offshoot of Judaism should also be a way of live]]fe and not a Church thing. No need to convert or prosylatize or preach big sermons. Live it and it will be noticed. I know that because of my experiences in my career. I was told by people that as a principal I ran a Christian school. I had never intimated that or spoke of it to any child.