Jester;1031417 wrote: Lon its the so called free thinkers that are the largest advocates of abortion, child genocide. I call it extreme violence against an innocent child to be ripped from the womb, dismembered alive, by being sucked into a vacuum. Then incinerated and wipped off the face of the earth haveing never been even once named, all for convinience of society. Thats not the 'religious' doing that, its the 'humanists'.
Humanists are most assuredly not peculiar to abortion.
No one is for abortion. There are many that are not against it for reasons they find sacrificial and based upon the entire concept would ultimately mean for the betterment of the people in which they're concerned about.
What's left is considering ones reasons for abortion to be misconceived.
Religion Is Not Always Good
Religion Is Not Always Good
JAB;1031426 wrote: Agreed but how is a religion formed out of that greed?
Because greed creates turmoil which ultimately creates those hardships.
Why else do people go to war?...
What's left are wars having been blamed for religious entity when in fact it were politically motivated only for those very same people, unjustified in their reasoning behind their decision to go to war, doing so in the name of religion. Hence why you get "Religion Is Not Always Good"...
Simple in my mind really. :yh_bigsmi...
Because greed creates turmoil which ultimately creates those hardships.
Why else do people go to war?...
What's left are wars having been blamed for religious entity when in fact it were politically motivated only for those very same people, unjustified in their reasoning behind their decision to go to war, doing so in the name of religion. Hence why you get "Religion Is Not Always Good"...
Simple in my mind really. :yh_bigsmi...
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
You sell our Lord far too short. Your God is indeed too small.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You sell our Lord far too short. Your God is indeed too small.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Actually it is the extremists that perpetrate a good deal of hatred and killing. They can be extremists in any faith.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
JAB;1031460 wrote: No, it's religions being blamed for war.
That's what I said...
That's what I said...
Religion Is Not Always Good
The downfall of man has been the whole idea of peace through victory. Jesus taught first justice and then peace. Borg, Crossan.
Part of the problem with saying that the Roman Empire was only the back drop is that Rome was part of the context not just some insignificant bystander.
Shalom
Ted
Part of the problem with saying that the Roman Empire was only the back drop is that Rome was part of the context not just some insignificant bystander.
Shalom
Ted
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester;1031467 wrote: Now Im stating that Jesus was indeed God, and man, that he is the perfect propiritiaion for sin and salvation and an ongoing relationship... that his words are timeless and deeply spiritual and based on the teaching of the heart of man...
Or he could have just been a dirty carpenter who needed to wash his feet...
Or he could have just been a dirty carpenter who needed to wash his feet...
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester;1031459 wrote: What planet are you on? Millions protect abortion rights daily. Yes the suport abortion whole heartedly. If 'no one was for abortion' it'd be unheard of.
You miss my point...
They're only for abortion for reasons they find sacrificial which ultimately turns the entire conjecture circumstantial...
But you're right I suppose technically in that there are murderers in the world and would probably want to kill an unborn child out of sheer spite...
I should have said "no sane person is for abortion without reasons they find that's in the best interests to themselves or the majority of the morally inclined".
You miss my point...
They're only for abortion for reasons they find sacrificial which ultimately turns the entire conjecture circumstantial...
But you're right I suppose technically in that there are murderers in the world and would probably want to kill an unborn child out of sheer spite...
I should have said "no sane person is for abortion without reasons they find that's in the best interests to themselves or the majority of the morally inclined".
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester;1031478 wrote: That had a knack for fine wine from just water!:wah:
If he could have made wine out of water then emperors would have employed him to do so making him rich beyond belief ultimately giving all of his poor people enough food, water, and shelter to live fruitfully for the rest of their lives...
But if making wine out of water was not Jesus' only trick then why not skip the wine out of water and make plenty of food, water, and clothing for poor people?...He didn't do this...Not very nice of him.
He wanted to "party like it were 1999"!!!!!!!...
If he could have made wine out of water then emperors would have employed him to do so making him rich beyond belief ultimately giving all of his poor people enough food, water, and shelter to live fruitfully for the rest of their lives...
But if making wine out of water was not Jesus' only trick then why not skip the wine out of water and make plenty of food, water, and clothing for poor people?...He didn't do this...Not very nice of him.
He wanted to "party like it were 1999"!!!!!!!...
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester you still haven't googled Marcus Borg. That is quite clear. Anyone can check that out easily just a few keyboard keys away..
Jester you are saying that Jesus only came to change the hearts of man and nothing else. Sorry old boy but that is an attempt to limit God. It is a total failure to understand the stories and the history.
I would agree that the parables are timeless. I would agree that Jesus words are timeless. They have much to teach us today.
My comments on Jesus and the resurrection come quite simply from the fact that I do not believe that I or anyone can begin to grasp the reality of God. Any words that we use, any phrase is metaphor. The Trinity is a metaphor for the three manifestations that man has experienced of the Divine. To try to define or describe the divine in all of its manifestations is to limit God. Your God is limited and far too small. Actually it would be more accurate to say that your view of God is limited.
I have absolutely no problem with speaking of the Holy Trinity knowing that God is beyond my comprehension ability.
The resurrection is in the same situation. The crucifixion was historical the stories are midrash for something that man could not and still cannot grasp.
For anyone to say they understand the divine is to live in a delusion.
My "understanding" of God places the divine beyond my grasp. I realize that the divine is far too great and that does not even come close. I do not try to limit God.
Shalom
Ted
Jester you are saying that Jesus only came to change the hearts of man and nothing else. Sorry old boy but that is an attempt to limit God. It is a total failure to understand the stories and the history.
I would agree that the parables are timeless. I would agree that Jesus words are timeless. They have much to teach us today.
My comments on Jesus and the resurrection come quite simply from the fact that I do not believe that I or anyone can begin to grasp the reality of God. Any words that we use, any phrase is metaphor. The Trinity is a metaphor for the three manifestations that man has experienced of the Divine. To try to define or describe the divine in all of its manifestations is to limit God. Your God is limited and far too small. Actually it would be more accurate to say that your view of God is limited.
I have absolutely no problem with speaking of the Holy Trinity knowing that God is beyond my comprehension ability.
The resurrection is in the same situation. The crucifixion was historical the stories are midrash for something that man could not and still cannot grasp.
For anyone to say they understand the divine is to live in a delusion.
My "understanding" of God places the divine beyond my grasp. I realize that the divine is far too great and that does not even come close. I do not try to limit God.
Shalom
Ted
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
Perhaps no different than a state that murders its citizens?
Shalom
Ted:-6
Perhaps no different than a state that murders its citizens?
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
You wanted an explanation.
Some of us realize we do not know much other delude themselves into thinking they do. What can you do?
Shalom
Ted
You wanted an explanation.
Some of us realize we do not know much other delude themselves into thinking they do. What can you do?
Shalom
Ted
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester;1031486 wrote: There is no justification for sucking a human life thorugh a vacuum cleaner, either sane or insane.
Can you come up with one ligitimate reason for doing that?
Absolutely...Well given the fact that "justification" will always be relative...
Situation 1:
A mother of one, that is suffering from malnutrition because she's finding it difficult to support herself and her child, has been raped and is pregnant...Terminating the pregnancy is in the best interests of the mother and her living child as well as the newly conceived child so as to save themselves and said child from suffering starvation. Justified abortion.
Situation 2:
A woman has become pregnant with a person she had not suspected as being legally classified as schizophrenic and upon his knowledge of her pregnancy demands that she terminate the pregnancy or he will kill her and her loved ones. Justified abortion.
How can you allow more deaths to save one child?...
Can you come up with one ligitimate reason for doing that?
Absolutely...Well given the fact that "justification" will always be relative...
Situation 1:
A mother of one, that is suffering from malnutrition because she's finding it difficult to support herself and her child, has been raped and is pregnant...Terminating the pregnancy is in the best interests of the mother and her living child as well as the newly conceived child so as to save themselves and said child from suffering starvation. Justified abortion.
Situation 2:
A woman has become pregnant with a person she had not suspected as being legally classified as schizophrenic and upon his knowledge of her pregnancy demands that she terminate the pregnancy or he will kill her and her loved ones. Justified abortion.
How can you allow more deaths to save one child?...
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
You are correct. Just as the US sent a Canadian citizen to Syria to be tortured; just what the US does in Guantanamo Bay even though the US Supreme Court along with many countries have declared it illegal.
No wonder the US refuses to recognize the international court. It wants to be able to do whatever it wants without accepting responsibility.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You are correct. Just as the US sent a Canadian citizen to Syria to be tortured; just what the US does in Guantanamo Bay even though the US Supreme Court along with many countries have declared it illegal.
No wonder the US refuses to recognize the international court. It wants to be able to do whatever it wants without accepting responsibility.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Answer
America.
Shalom
Ted:-6
America.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Then of course there is the situation where the life of the mother would be at risk if the pregnancy was to continue.
I did like the suggestion to see that the family gets enough food. I wonder why that does not happen now in all the states.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I did like the suggestion to see that the family gets enough food. I wonder why that does not happen now in all the states.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester;1031514 wrote: Niether situation gurantees that the other children will die.
Why not help the child famly in situation number one by giving them the food they need and protect the mother in situation numbe two form a threatening person.
No one has to die, least of all an innocent unborn child.
Why is it when I have these conversations people come up with the most off the wall senarios. The answer isn't to kill an innocent child it is to make sure all survive. That wasn't the situation...You asked for justification. Those situations give justification to abortion not only in a sane matter, but peculiar to sanity.
The fact remains that there are no third parties to give assistance to these people other than to give them an abortion. Please do not suggest that these scenarios are not realistic, ok?...That would be a mistake.
Perfectly justifies abortion in my mind.
Jester;1031514 wrote:
Q: What kind of person seeks death as an easy answer to a situation?
A: One wishing to not assist the death of another or two.
Why not help the child famly in situation number one by giving them the food they need and protect the mother in situation numbe two form a threatening person.
No one has to die, least of all an innocent unborn child.
Why is it when I have these conversations people come up with the most off the wall senarios. The answer isn't to kill an innocent child it is to make sure all survive. That wasn't the situation...You asked for justification. Those situations give justification to abortion not only in a sane matter, but peculiar to sanity.
The fact remains that there are no third parties to give assistance to these people other than to give them an abortion. Please do not suggest that these scenarios are not realistic, ok?...That would be a mistake.
Perfectly justifies abortion in my mind.
Jester;1031514 wrote:
Q: What kind of person seeks death as an easy answer to a situation?
A: One wishing to not assist the death of another or two.
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
In that situation, absolutely.
Abortion like morality is relative with reference to many factors. Do I accept AOD without qualification? No I don't. The fact is the necessity for an abortion is determined on an individual by individual case.
In the case of the rape of a young child who is of an age to conceive; absolutely.
Shalom
Ted:-6
In that situation, absolutely.
Abortion like morality is relative with reference to many factors. Do I accept AOD without qualification? No I don't. The fact is the necessity for an abortion is determined on an individual by individual case.
In the case of the rape of a young child who is of an age to conceive; absolutely.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
The state also seems not to mind murdering innocent folks either to say nothing about the willy nilly killing of anyone guilty or otherwise.
It is the easy way out though.
Shalom
Ted:-6
It is the easy way out though.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester;1031533 wrote: Always, as I said, people are willing to murder the innocent for convineince. In the same way people are willing to murder to ensure the life of a new child. The situation doesn't have to be realistic to establish logic...The only justification in my mind for abortion is if aborting a child saves another person or persons' llives or saves the child in question from suffering a hellish life.
Jester;1031533 wrote:
Its easier to solev the issue by murdering the innocent child than it is to figure out a way for all to survive. This is relative because not every situation is survivable.
Jester;1031533 wrote:
How do you appease your conscience?Simple. I'm moral and care about people. I care so much for people I'm not ready to murder a person or two to save the life of one. simple. I sleep very well at night.
*Edit - Obviously I'm not ready to murder a person or two to save the life of one so long as the persons in question are not unjustifiably attempting to end the life of anyone more moral than those advocating cold blooded murder.
Jester;1031533 wrote:
Its easier to solev the issue by murdering the innocent child than it is to figure out a way for all to survive. This is relative because not every situation is survivable.
Jester;1031533 wrote:
How do you appease your conscience?Simple. I'm moral and care about people. I care so much for people I'm not ready to murder a person or two to save the life of one. simple. I sleep very well at night.
*Edit - Obviously I'm not ready to murder a person or two to save the life of one so long as the persons in question are not unjustifiably attempting to end the life of anyone more moral than those advocating cold blooded murder.
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
How about the execution of innocent folks. Or how about the killing of innocent folks in a war. You seem ready to do either. At least that's what I take from past discussions.
The death of over 100 000 folks in Hiroshima was justified as a Christian act. The sending of of a Canadian citizen to Syria to be tortured is ok? The torture of folks at Guantanamo Bay is ok. Both are in fact war crimes.
Murder of innocent folks seems well justified by some.
Shalom
Ted:-6
How about the execution of innocent folks. Or how about the killing of innocent folks in a war. You seem ready to do either. At least that's what I take from past discussions.
The death of over 100 000 folks in Hiroshima was justified as a Christian act. The sending of of a Canadian citizen to Syria to be tortured is ok? The torture of folks at Guantanamo Bay is ok. Both are in fact war crimes.
Murder of innocent folks seems well justified by some.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester;1031553 wrote: That doesnt surprsie me in the least that you'd take this stance.
I'll take that as a compliment, thank you.
I'll take that as a compliment, thank you.
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester :-6
I would say that by ignoring my above statements you most certainly appear to be hypocritical. But true to form you are reconfirming in me the veracity of why I left the fundamentalist fold. It's ok to murder an innocent adult but it is not acceptable to do an abortion even if the mother's life is at risk. That is sheer hypocrisy.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I would say that by ignoring my above statements you most certainly appear to be hypocritical. But true to form you are reconfirming in me the veracity of why I left the fundamentalist fold. It's ok to murder an innocent adult but it is not acceptable to do an abortion even if the mother's life is at risk. That is sheer hypocrisy.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
The committing of war crimes through permitting torture is fairly clear. There is nothing whatsoever hypothetical about it.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The committing of war crimes through permitting torture is fairly clear. There is nothing whatsoever hypothetical about it.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester;1031570 wrote: Snyder, listen to me for a sec, yer a great kid, I enjoy talking with you on the threads, but, I cant tell anymore if your trying to shock us all or if you've suddenly come up with a higher way of saying what you used to say in plain english. Your posts just don't make sense anymore. Please for us dumb cowboys can ya just make it a bit simpler for us to understand ya? All the hypathetical and diviniation just aint cutting it.
It's not me you cannot understand it's the logic.
All I've said is that the only justification that I can give for abortion is to save the life of another or two.
I'm sorry but I just don't know why you can't understand that.
It's not me you cannot understand it's the logic.
All I've said is that the only justification that I can give for abortion is to save the life of another or two.
I'm sorry but I just don't know why you can't understand that.
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
I've stated what I believe but you have not answered my query as of yet.
Perhaps you would condemn a 12 yr. old girl to the pain of child birth and the possibility of death. It would seem to fit. Perhaps you would let a mother die. Be that as it may I've answered you but you have conveniently ignored the points I have made. Are they too hard or do they hit too close to home?
Shalom
Ted:-6
I've stated what I believe but you have not answered my query as of yet.
Perhaps you would condemn a 12 yr. old girl to the pain of child birth and the possibility of death. It would seem to fit. Perhaps you would let a mother die. Be that as it may I've answered you but you have conveniently ignored the points I have made. Are they too hard or do they hit too close to home?
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
Jester:-6
LOL
Logic is logic whether it is hypothetical or not. Perhaps you are simply being obtuse because others don't agree with you.?
Shalom
Ted:-6
LOL
Logic is logic whether it is hypothetical or not. Perhaps you are simply being obtuse because others don't agree with you.?
Shalom
Ted:-6
Religion Is Not Always Good
JAB:-6
Ah. I don't go around calling names and telling folks they are spreading poisoned water. That hardly equates with some valid words that I use.
Do you condone name calling and personal attacks?
Shalom
Ted:-6
Ah. I don't go around calling names and telling folks they are spreading poisoned water. That hardly equates with some valid words that I use.
Do you condone name calling and personal attacks?
Shalom
Ted:-6