700 Billion Dollar Buyout

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:07 am

Announcement in a few minutes. Our constitution is nothing more than a piece of grand history.

Rest in Peace, my beloved country. :yh_flag :-1

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:50 am

buyout or bailout?

I owned kmart stock once upon a time... there was bankruptcy filed, the company saved by sears buying it ....the stockholders stock had zero value. It was just void of value. :-2

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:13 am

I'm very worried about the end result of all this Buyouts, as I tried to convey my opinion on the thread "Sarah start packing".

as I voice my opinion - I receive insults

I'm very invested as I'm sure many are

My point in this is - you don't see the CEO's offering their severance $$.?

no they're walking with their billions and out playing a round of Golf.

This will cost each individual at least $4000.00, my money - your money..

I can't afford a round of Golf, or anything else at this point.

Where's our great Pres. Bush - to reassure us little people.

let's see what our 2 great Pres. candidates have to say to fix this economy

oh, they don't want a Q&A arena - they're not talking either..

But, what do I know - I'm a stupid female

oh, but I was told I have spunk.. No, when it comes to my money - it's not spunk.

I'm a B--ch.

Patsy

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:39 am

I don't want them to "fix" the economy. They've done enough "fixing" already. We're in this fix because of their fix.

But it's too late for that. Congress has borrowed white steeds from some foreign entity so they can ride in and save the day.

Post by **spot** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:12 am

It's a shot through America's own foot for several reasons.

It's not just that the organizations which created these pointless mortgages turn out to have had all the profits and incurred none of the risk, though that makes a mockery of capitalism now that the risk has ended up on the shoulders of the tax payers to be paid off over the next few years. That's bad to the point of criminality.

The worse aspect is that this new entity, call it the Bogus Bank of America, now holds a notional $700 billion in housing stock, none of which (by definition) is worth the paper value the Bogus Bank has paid the original mortgage companies for. The Bogus Bank is going to hold onto the properties, if I understand the plan correctly, until the property market edges up to such an extent that each of the held properties can be sold at the notional value. That, it strikes me, is a guaranteed cap on property prices until the last of the stock ends up sold. For the entire time that the Bogus Bank holds any property, the property market is depressed to their sale prices. And boy, they're holding a whole lot of property.

I think that locks the property market into stagnation for the next decade instead of allowing the losses to be taken on the chin by the shareholders of the firms responsible for the bad deals. The shareholders end up with their profits guaranteed, their losses revoked. America as a whole ends up with static house prices indefinitely and a huge unsought personal tax liability to pay off sooner rather than later.

Didn't the President say no more bailing out banks, two days before he made this $700 billion commitment? Didn't that force the stock market down? Doesn't the new announcement bounce it back to insane optimism again? Do any of his friends and relations trade on the stock market? Does everyone trust this gentleman not to seek personal gain within his own circle? I wonder why, given all the familiar faces that have been in the trough since his administration came to office. This seems more like the last and biggest hurrah of them all.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:23 am

You make the same mistake everyone else seems to. It's not King George waving a scepter and making decrees. This was hailed as a bi-partisan, bicameral hurrah.

This is not Bush grabbing a handful on his way out. This is Washington politicians gorging themselves with no end in sight.

Post by **spot** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:27 am

Accountable;989827 wrote: You make the same mistake everyone else seems to. It's not King George waving a scepter and making decrees. This was hailed as a bi-partisan, bicameral hurrah.

This is not Bush grabbing a handful on his way out. This is Washington politicians gorging themselves with no end in sight.Someone's pulling his strings. For "gentleman" by all means read "gentleman's string pullers", the two are synonymous in my mind.

The way to stop them, as you're perfectly well aware, is through civil disobedience. Nothing else can end it.

I agree with you entirely that both parties are joined at the hip and indistinguishably guilty.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:56 am

These bail out / buyouts give a whole new meaning to

"BANK OF AMERICA"

where do you thing these CEO's will put all their money?

Treasury Bills?

Patsy

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:00 pm

Patsy Warnick;989837 wrote: These bail out / buyouts give a whole new meaning to

"BANK OF AMERICA"

where do you thing these CEO's will put all their money?

Treasury Bills?

Patsy
Are you kidding? They know how unstable the dollar is, better than anybody. That cash is going off-shore to foreign lands, and fast!

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:10 pm

yes, I was kidding

I'm due for a Cayman Island Vacation aren't you.?

Patsy

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:24 pm

Patsy Warnick;989846 wrote: yes, I was kidding

I'm due for a Cayman Island Vacation aren't you.?

Patsy
:D As long as I don't have to put lime in my beer.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:57 pm

Yes, I have to say that I can understand the rational behind the move from an economic sense, but from a political and ethical sense if I was a low income American worker I would be more that angry at what is going on.

It makes a mockery of the idea that the US is a Republic governed by the people for the people, these companies cannot be allowed to escape from the mess they have created by simply handing that mess over the to institutions that are funded by the population, who will now have to foot the bill for decades. This is your hard earned tax money, what representation are American citizens going to be given on this new super-corporation that promises to clean up the mess that these financial corporations have created with their arrogant lunacy?

Also in what way are the banks that are being bailed out by the citizens going to be made accountable to those citizens, they can hardly still act as if they are totally private companies and its none of the publics' concern, as this basically nationalizes the banking system (or at least the bit that the bankers don't want, i.e. their bad debt). That is not private capitalism, that is state-sponsored gambling where the gamblers cannot lose and it pays them handsomely to mortgage the US's economic future for their own personal gain. Which is what they have done, and lost your nation's treasure in the process.

Frankly in a country where tax paying citizens are told they can't have basic healthcare as its UnAmerican to not be able to provide your own, but super-rich, super-irresponsible banks and corporations are given the biggest pile of free dosh in human history courtesy of those same people {who are left to their own devices in terms of having to look after themselves, (and are lectured to constantly about how great the wealthy scroungers are)} it is frankly disgusting. If the system has brought you to this sorry state of affairs, then the system is broken, fix the system and deal with the people who have brought the country to its knees more effectively than any al-queda terrorist attack could do, don't perpetuate these people's oligarchy.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:39 pm

US citizens, these are the people responsible for squandering our money ... this time. Find your representative(s) and find out how they voted. If you don't agree with their vote, FIRE THEM!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

House Financial Services Committee

Chairman Barney Frank represents Massachusetts' Fourth Congressional District. The other Democratic members of the Committee are:

Rep. Paul E. Kanjorski, PA

Rep. Maxine Waters, CA

Rep. Carolyn B. Maloney, NY

Rep. Luis V. Gutierrez, IL

Rep. Nydia M. VelÃ¡zquez, NY

Rep. Melvin L. Watt, NC

Rep. Gary L. Ackerman, NY

Rep. Brad Sherman, CA

Rep. Gregory W. Meeks, NY

Rep. Dennis Moore, KS

Rep. Michael E. Capuano, MA

Rep. Rubén Hinojosa, TX

Rep. William Lacy Clay, MO

Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, NY

Rep. Joe Baca, CA

Rep. Stephen F. Lynch, MA

Rep. Brad Miller, NC

Rep. David Scott, GA

Rep. Al Green, TX

Rep. Emanuel Cleaver, MO

Rep. Melissa L. Bean, IL

Rep. Gwen Moore, WI

Rep. Lincoln Davis, TN

Rep. Paul W. Hodes, NH

Rep. Keith Ellison, MN

Rep. Ron Klein, FL

Rep. Tim Mahoney, FL

Rep. Charles Wilson, OH

Rep. Ed Perlmutter, CO

Rep. Christopher S. Murphy, CT

Rep. Joe Donnelly, IN

Rep. Bill Foster, IL

Rep. Andre Carson, IN

Rep. Jackie Speier, CA

Rep. Don Cazayoux, LA

Rep. Travis Childers, MS

Republican Members

Rep. Spencer Bachus, AL

Rep. Deborah Pryce, OH

Rep. Michael N. Castle, DE

Rep. Peter King, NY

Rep. Edward R. Royce, CA

Rep. Frank D. Lucas, OK

Rep. Ron Paul, TX

Rep. Steven C. LaTourette, OH

Rep. Donald A. Manzullo, IL

Rep. Walter B. Jones , NC

Rep. Judy Biggert, IL

Rep. Christopher Shays, CT

Rep. Gary G. Miller, CA

Rep. Shelley Moore Capito, WV

Rep. Tom Feeney, FL

Rep. Jeb Hensarling, TX

Rep. Scott Garrett, NJ

Rep. Ginny Brown-Waite, FL

Rep. J. Gresham Barrett, SC

Rep. Jim Gerlach, PA

Rep. Stevan Pearce, NM

Rep. Randy Neugebauer, TX

Rep. Tom Price, GA

Rep. Geoff Davis, KY

Rep. Patrick T. McHenry, NC

Rep. John Campbell, CA

Rep. Adam Putnam, FL

Rep. Michele Bachmann, MN

Rep. Peter J. Roskam, IL

Rep. Kenny Marchant, TX

Rep. Thaddeus McCotter, MI

Rep. Kevin McCarthy, CA

Rep. Dean Heller, NV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Senate Banking Committee

Democrat

Christopher J. Dodd Chairman (D-CT)

Tim Johnson (D-SD)

Jack Reed (D-RI)

Charles E. Schumer (D-NY)

Evan Bayh (D-IN)

Tom Carper (D-DE)

Robert Menendez (D-NJ)

Daniel K. Akaka (D-HI)

Sherrod Brown (D-OH)

Robert P. Casey (D-PA)

Jon Tester (D-MT)

Republican

Richard C. Shelby Ranking Member (R-AL)

Robert F. Bennett (R-UT)

Wayne Allard (R-CO)

Michael B. Enzi (R-WY)

Michael B. Enzi (R-WY)

Chuck Hagel (R-NE)

Jim Bunning (R-KY)

Mike Crapo (R-ID)

Elizabeth Dole (R-NC)

Mel Martinez (R-FL)

Bob Corker (R-TN)

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:25 pm

Accountable;989641 wrote: Announcement in a few minutes. Our constitution is nothing more than a piece of grand history.

Rest in Peace, my beloved country. :yh_flag :-1

It all comes down to "the almighty dollar"............doesn't it? I share your grief. :-1

JP in USA · Post by **JP in USA** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:45 pm

The United States Government is capitalizing on a comprehensional failure of the human mind – the inability to fully grasp the magnitude of large numbers. Upon hearing numbers beyond a few thousand our brains interpret it as, “Wow, that’s a big number!

According to the United States treasury, a One Dollar Bill has a thickness of 0.0043 inches. One thousand One Dollar Bills would be one thousand times thicker -- 4.3 inches.

One million is one thousand thousands, so the thickness of $1,000,000 is 4300 inches. Converting to feet and this becomes 358.3 feet, an American football field.

One billion -- $1,000,000,000 is one thousand times thicker still or 358,333.3 feet. This is 67.866 miles, the driving distance from New York to Milford CT.

One Trillion is one thousand billions – one trillion One Dollar Bills stacked one on top of another is 67,866 miles. This would circumnavigate the globe 2.73 times.

A stack of One Dollar Bills totaling the current national debt cap of 10.6 trillion dollars would go around the equator 28.93 times. The proposed cap of 11.3 trillion dollars would go around 30.85 times.

Is creating a debt that is the equivalent of a stack of One Dollar Bills rounding planet 31 times a responsible act?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:00 pm

JP in USA;990027 wrote: The United States Government is capitalizing on a comprehensional failure of the human mind – the inability to fully grasp the magnitude of large numbers. Upon hearing numbers beyond a few thousand our brains interpret it as, “Wow, that’s a big number!

According to the United States treasury, a One Dollar Bill has a thickness of 0.0043 inches. One thousand One Dollar Bills would be one thousand times thicker -- 4.3 inches.

One million is one thousand thousands, so the thickness of $1,000,000 is 4300 inches. Converting to feet and this becomes 358.3 feet, an American football field.

One billion -- $1,000,000,000 is one thousand times thicker still or 358,333.3 feet. This is 67.866 miles, the driving distance from New York to Milford CT.

One Trillion is one thousand billions – one trillion One Dollar Bills stacked one on top of another is 67,866 miles. This would circumnavigate the globe 2.73 times.

A stack of One Dollar Bills totaling the current national debt cap of 10.6 trillion dollars would go around the equator 28.93 times. The proposed cap of 11.3 trillion dollars would go around 30.85 times.

Is creating a debt that is the equivalent of a stack of One Dollar Bills rounding planet 31 times a responsible act?
Is THIS you, or did you plagiarize? In either case, you don't indicate if you support or oppose this buyout.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:25 pm

Scrat;990123 wrote: It's not going to happen though.
Nothing at all will happen so long as people convince themselves they can only choose "the lesser of two evils."

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:34 pm

I saw Ron Paul on the list of those we can thank so I guess he's no longer an option. Is letting the market crash an option anyone in power would choose if there was an option? I suppose the problem is that it's an option to someone in power. We worry a lot about the seperation of churh and state when we should be worring about the seperation of business and state.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:33 am

So as long as we sit back and allow Bush & all WA take a walk with their/our $$$$$$$$

What are WE WE WE

as UNITED plan to do to survive this BUSH adminstration mess ??

Galbally said it best it's Disgusting

and he's in IRELAND !!!

I'm embarrassed - I'm ashamed

our Country is unravaling at the seams and look at the 2 we have as a choice for PRES..??

We / the US use to be strong - intimidating - feared

now we're invaded - bombed - and viewed as very vulnerable

Thank You BUSH

ain't that America - something to see -you & me

I say we/all/everyone should revolt over the condition of our COUNTRY

refuse the CHOICE GIVEN GIVEN to us as choice for PRESIDENT

Hell revolted over TEA in Boston 1775 - God Bless them for their strength

we're WEAK NOW...

Where'e our PRIDE

Where's our HONOR

I'm down right embarassed with the condition of this COUNTRY.

ok - I'm done

Patsy

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:35 am

I wonder what you could buy with $800 billion? I am betting that for that money you could easily.

1. Bring in a universal healthcare system for every citizen

2. Repair every road and bridge in the country

3. Repair and upgrade every public school, library, and museum in the country.

4. Build a couple of Larger Hadron Coliders as well as fund a replacement program for the space shuttle.

5. Refurbish a couple of Naval Battle groups in time for the new war thats going to brew over the arctic.

6. Upgrade the telecommunications network to provide free internet access to all citizens.

7. Extend the college scholarship funds to allow kids from poor backgrounds access to better education.

8. Fund about 10 years of intensive research into how we are going to replace fossil fuels and cope with the changing climate, thereby ensuring American leadership in these technologies.

9. Still have a couple of quid left over for a national holiday, maybe called "Hunt the wall street executive" day, you could give every citizen a big stick, release the executives into the woods around the country and have some cheap fun. :-6

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:42 am

OH, Gal

LOVE IT

I truely love it

Or we could just fund congress's health care plan..??

Taking a big stick on all the WA executives - that's Hide & Seek..:wah:

but, their doing that with our money $$$$$

I'm ashamed

Patsy

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:49 am

Clint;990187 wrote: I saw Ron Paul on the list of those we can thank so I guess he's no longer an option. Is letting the market crash an option anyone in power would choose if there was an option? I suppose the problem is that it's an option to someone in power. We worry a lot about the seperation of churh and state when we should be worring about the seperation of business and state.
Oh no no no no no! That's the entire committee. I don't think they've voted yet, or at least I couldn't find how anyone voted. He was on a phone interview on Fox. He's against the buyout.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:03 am

They still haven't voted, apparently.

http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/2008092 ... l_meltdown

AP wrote:

WASHINGTON – The Bush administration asked Congress on Saturday for the power to buy $700 billion in toxic assets clogging the financial system and threatening the economy as negotiations began on the largest bailout since the Great Depression.

The rescue plan would give Washington broad authority to purchase bad mortgage-related assets from U.S. financial institutions for the next two years. It does not specify which institutions qualify or what, if anything, the government would get in return for the unprecedented infusion.

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/ ... 6&src=news

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:23 am

Scrat;990317 wrote: You could do a lot of things Galbally, set up a train system like europes here in America.

Another symptom of this creeping crud is the fact that my states budget has taken a hit. Tax revenue is going to have a 200 mill plus shortfall, that means a lot of things are not going to get paid for. This country is headed for the 3rd world or so it seems.
I don't think so. The fundamentals really are strong. If we can get control of the parasites we can turn it around. We're still under 10% unemployment. We just need to keep from panicking ... and stop looking to government to fix sh!t.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:45 am

Accountable;990227 wrote: Oh no no no no no! That's the entire committee. I don't think they've voted yet, or at least I couldn't find how anyone voted. He was on a phone interview on Fox. He's against the buyout.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

Post by **spot** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:23 am

Accountable;990336 wrote: I don't think so. The fundamentals really are strong. If we can get control of the parasites we can turn it around.I expect similar ideas were heard in Moscow when the Berlin Wall came down. This week was the end of classic capitalism.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:29 am

spot;990363 wrote: I expect similar ideas were heard in Moscow when the Berlin Wall came down. This week was the end of classic capitalism.
The gov't of the former USA is definitely socialist, no doubt about it. The question is: are we going to stand for it?

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:45 am

Deregulation and free market capitalism run amock is what caused this mess. For example, how the depression era wall between investment and commercial banking was removed in 1999. What happens when you take your hands off the steering wheel? Does the deregulated car drive on it's own magically?

You might think that helping the people with failing mortgages would fix the mortgage crises. But that would be trickle up economics ... we can't have socialism can we? Unless it's trickle down socialism.

This bailout a waste of money IMO, and isn't going to work. The root problems are peak oil and the dying middle class. Injecting cash is only going to delay the problem .. that every business is overvalued on the assumption that gas will be cheaper than a gallon of milk.

The only real solution IMO is to tap the strategic oil reserves, help the middle class, and get the hell off oil.

I don't think taxpayers can complain though ... we hired these jokers. Now we are staring down the barrel of another Depression.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:19 am

yaaarrrgg;990375 wrote: Deregulation and free market capitalism run amock is what caused this mess. For example, how the depression era wall between investment and commercial banking was removed in 1999. What happens when you take your hands off the steering wheel? Does the deregulated car drive on it's own magically?The government's not supposed to be driving!! That's like asking the traffic cop to chauffeur everyone around instead of keeping traffic going smoothly.

I wrote this & lost it but lemme try again:

Putting on my cynical hat, I can't help but think that Clinton knew the implications of what he was doing when he signed that bill in '99. Is it possible he & Gore had a plan to head it off if he should get elected or let it go if he lost?

And Bush & Co had to have seen this coming, and likely thought they could stretch it out long enough to drop the problem in the next president's lap.

yaaarrrgg wrote: You might think that helping the people with failing mortgages would fix the mortgage crises. But that would be trickle up economics ... we can't have socialism can we? Unless it's trickle down socialism. We have nationalized insurance and nationalized guaranteed home loans. We are a socialist nation.

www.dictionary.com - social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

yaaarrrgg wrote: This bailout a waste of money IMO, and isn't going to work. The root problems are peak oil and the dying middle class. Injecting cash is only going to delay the problem .. that every business is overvalued on the assumption that gas will be cheaper than a gallon of milk. I agree it won't work. Government interference NEVER works in the long term. I'm not ready to stipulate the root problem, though.

yaaarrrgg wrote: The only real solution IMO is to tap the strategic oil reserves, help the middle class, and get the hell off oil.I have a lot of respect for you, Y, but that's just dumb. The SOR gives only a very short emergency relief. Releasing it now would do nothing but make idiots think good times are back, give politicians a new bone to fight over, and make smart people worry about what's next.

yaaarrrgg wrote: I don't think taxpayers can complain though ... we hired these jokers. Now we are staring down the barrel of another Depression.You're right about it being the citizens' responsibility, but we're nowhere near a depression, not with over 90% employment and nearly 70% home ownership. Filter the hype.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:42 am

Accountable;990364 wrote: The gov't of the former USA is definitely socialist, no doubt about it. The question is: are we going to stand for it?

But whats your answer acc? Unregulated capitalism just ate itself, spot is right, the anglo-saxon model of capitalism is dead. What do you suggest you do? If you withdraw all government support from these banks, they will fold, the money supply will stop and you will be living on coupons in 6 months. The only institutions that can hold up the edifice right now is the government. The banks and financial houses have failed, massively, the market does not posses the ability right now to save itself. I hate what is happening, and I think morally it stinks, but I don't know what else can be done in the short term. Certain all these bonuses that are being handed out should be withdrawn or taxed at 99 percent, while criminal investigations probably need to be undertaken, while a whole generation of banking officals should probably be fired, but thats a job for 6 months time, not now.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:35 am

Galbally;990426 wrote: But whats your answer acc? Unregulated capitalism just ate itself, spot is right, the anglo-saxon model of capitalism is dead. What do you suggest you do? If you withdraw all government support from these banks, they will fold, the money supply will stop and you will be living on coupons in 6 months. The only institutions that can hold up the edifice right now is the government. The banks and financial houses have failed, massively, the market does not posses the ability right now to save itself. I hate what is happening, and I think morally it stinks, but I don't know what else can be done in the short term. Certain all these bonuses that are being handed out should be withdrawn or taxed at 99 percent, while criminal investigations probably need to be undertaken, while a whole generation of banking officals should probably be fired, but thats a job for 6 months time, not now.As I said in another thread:

Laws designed to keep honest people honest are fine and necessary.

Laws designed to manipulate markets are never good because of the unintended consequences they bring with them.

Clinton repealed a law that kept honest people honest. That is what started this ball rolling. Before and since, our government mucked things up by trying to manipulate market forces. I'm not convinced that the edifices should be held up. Sometime one has to sacrifice short-term to avoid sacrificing long-term.

It's time to pay the piper.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:02 am

Accountable;990459 wrote: As I said in another thread:

Laws designed to keep honest people honest are fine and necessary.

Laws designed to manipulate markets are never good because of the unintended consequences they bring with them.

Clinton repealed a law that kept honest people honest. That is what started this ball rolling. Before and since, our government mucked things up by trying to manipulate market forces. I'm not convinced that the edifices should be held up. Sometime one has to sacrifice short-term to avoid sacrificing long-term.

It's time to pay the piper.

I totally sympathize with what you are saying, and I don't think anyone wants these private companies bailed out, but I really don't see any other immeadiate way out of this terrible mess. I think that its now inevitable that the British government (and probably my government) is going to have to institute a similar agency to get these bad debts out of the system, that really hurts and its disgusting for the taxpayer to have to put their money on the line, but I think it has to be done.

However, once the actual monetary and banking system has stabilized again, what needs to happen is that the companies and people (including politicians) who are responsible need to be held accountable (no pun intended) and I mean properly accountable, there should be no question that anyone who has been running any of these failed investment banks should get away with this, let alone be rewarded. The political system will have to respond to it, because if they try to brush it under the carpet and fob people off it will seriously undermine our systems of government, and could result in serious civil disobedience or at the very worst, political collapse, and I mean that in all seriousness.

That won't help the major problem, which is that a lot of money has been lost and we are going to have to absorb those loses in our economy, the US has decided to make the cost a public liability, which will have serious implications for the dollar, for US public finances, and the financial power of the US government.

Whether Britain choses to allow its private companies and banks to fail instead remains to be seen, but I doubt they will take that option. Neither choice is good, but the room for maneuver is very limited now.

Post by **spot** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:23 am

Galbally;990480 wrote: Whether Britain choses to allow its private companies and banks to fail instead remains to be seen, but I doubt they will take that option. Neither choice is good, but the room for maneuver is very limited now.You know, I don't think that's actually on the cards. None of the UK banks were so dependent on these tainted investments that they're insolvent as a result. HBOS agreed to merge because their deposits were likely to be called to such an extent that they'd have to sell off their mortgage deeds. Unlike Northern Rock the domestic deeds they hold are fairly solid and that's far and away the majority of their stock. I think HBOS should have ridden it out for a few days, they'd be in clear water by now if they had.

It's more likely that the UK banks will just have to forego dividends for a year. Not a bad option, that, they've been spreading out cash like confetti for the last five years, a year off won't hurt anyone.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:57 am

Galbally;990480 wrote: However, once the actual monetary and banking system has stabilized again, what needs to happen is that the companies and people (including politicians) who are responsible need to be held accountable (no pun intended) and I mean properly accountable, there should be no question that anyone who has been running any of these failed investment banks should get away with this, let alone be rewarded.
Get away with what? Be held accountable for what? They broke no law, other than moral. The federal judges have ignored or abused our constitution at their whim as much as the politicians have, so prosecuting the responsible politicians is a non-player as well.

There might be a scapegoat sacrificed to quiet the public but that's about it. No real reckoning will be taken.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:07 pm

Scrat;990551 wrote: The regulations have to be put back in place, we need to start thinking about this country and not trying to be the world police force. Our military budget is astronomical. Our infrastructure is going to crap and we need to expand it into alternative energy sources. Agreed. Mark the calendar.

Scrat wrote: The free market is a great thing, it does work but when you have the situation we do now all bets are off.Tossing out the essence of the country is not saving it; that's replacing it.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:29 pm

Accountable;990527 wrote: Get away with what? Be held accountable for what? They broke no law, other than moral. The federal judges have ignored or abused our constitution at their whim as much as the politicians have, so prosecuting the responsible politicians is a non-player as well.

There might be a scapegoat sacrificed to quiet the public but that's about it. No real reckoning will be taken.

I wouldn't be so sure about the not breaking any law part of that in some cases, certainly in instances where banks and executives have been less than honest about their companies liabilities, that is actually against the law. There are other aspects of the commerical operation of these markets and companies that I believe will be now investigated very carefully. I am quite sure that heads are going to roll, the situation will demand it, and some may even been important heads, its surprising how quickly these things can develop once the momentum reaches a certain point.

In terms of your politicians and judiciary, you are right its unlikely that too many people will be held accoutable in the manner you suggest. What I would say to you in that regard is that the US is the worlds formost Republic, the people of the US still have a lot of direct power in terms of their ability to effect political change if they so wish, (which is why this situation is diffenent than what happened to the Soviet Union in 1989 when its power collapsed, though there are parallels between this and the death of Russian Communism).

In America the people are actually in charge, they have just been distracted for so long by nonsense they seem to have forgotten it in many repsects and just go along with whatever crap they think is inevitable. What the American people need to do is use that power they have (because of their system) wisely and responsibly and take back the country from the oligarchy that currently sets the agenda through its manipulation of the media and society and most of the levels of power. Make no mistake, this situation has thrown the house of cards into the air, where the cards land is currently open to question, and no one really knows.

It is incumbent upon those who say they value their country to try to do something about the terrible situation that has been allowed to develop, and the people and system that have caused it, through democratic, collective action. In America you have choices, you should start using that power more effectively once more. That would be my opinion.

Post by **spot** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:54 pm

Other than a capacity to vote Republican or Democrat whenever the opportunity arises, what option are you suggesting? Because voting either Republican or Democrat isn't going to produce one iota of change in the system. Do American citizens have an alternative? I can't see what it is.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:09 pm

spot;990631 wrote: Other than a capacity to vote Republican or Democrat whenever the opportunity arises, what option are you suggesting? Because voting either Republican or Democrat isn't going to produce one iota of change in the system. Do American citizens have an alternative? I can't see what it is.

Of course they do, its an open election, don't vote for either (the military in the US isn't particularly partisan and takes no overt role in domestic politics, it would support a democratically elected Independent President or House unless he or she proposed to disband the military). Business would of course try to stop such a thing happening, but that would not be tolerated by the forces of the state, and against the military or the police; buisnessmen are just jumped up guys in suits with bits of paper. There is no law that says you can only vote for candidates of either of these parties, no more than you can only vote Tory or Labour in Britain. People just do it because they are brow-beaten into thinking there are no viable alternatives, and lack the imagination to see that nothing (as McCain says) in inevitable. Will that happen? No. Should it happen, at this stage, it should, as like you said the rot is now deeply embedded.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:18 pm

I hope this comes out right. It kills me that Ron Paul's been predicting this for years and gets virtually zero attention. Here's the little he is getting.

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog/?p=574

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:31 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/story//uc/2008091 ... _337446Pat Buchanan wrote:

Seizing on the crisis, the left says we are witnessing the failure of market economics, a failure of conservatism.

This is nonsense. What we are witnessing is the collapse of Gordon Gecko ("Greed Is Good!") capitalism. What we are witnessing is what happens to a prodigal nation that ignores history, and forgets and abandons the philosophy and principles that made it great.

A true conservative cherishes prudence and believes in fiscal responsibility, balanced budgets and a self-reliant republic. He believes in saving for retirement and a rainy day, in deferred gratification, in not buying on credit what you cannot afford, in living within your means.

Is that really what got Wall Street and us into this mess — that we followed too religiously the gospel of Robert Taft and Russell Kirk?

"Government must save us!" cries the left, as ever. Yet, who got us into this mess if not the government — the Fed with its easy money, Bush with his profligate spending, and Congress and the SEC by liberating Wall Street and failing to step in and stop the drunken orgy?

Post by **spot** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:39 pm

Galbally;990640 wrote: Will that happen? No. Should it happen, at this stage, it should, as like you said the rot is now deeply embedded.

It's not a matter of rot, it's a matter of media pressure. That's what makes a mass revolt at the ballot box totally impossible to achieve. TV and to a lesser extent newspapers simply won't allow any reaction but laughter to such a proposition. The USA is a two-party political system and both parties are capitalist.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:04 pm

Accountable;990651 wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/story//uc/2008091 ... /op_337446

For once I am totally in agreement with Pat Buchanan. The issue is that the US is still a Republic, whatever the follies of recent times have been. For that Republic to be self-reliant once more its citizens need to stop allowing themselves to be paid off to ignore what is happening, by cheap credit, pointless luxury, and the myth that there are no hard choices, that you can ignore obvious realities with no consequences as a special privilige of being citizens of a global superpower, and everyone can win, all the time, even when they lose. That is hubris and self-imposed ignorance, it can only lead to one conclusion.

This is the consequence of the dumbing down of public discourse to meaningless soundbites on inane commercially-driven TV shows that dominate the public sphere, the glorifcation of wealth and riches or the achievement of celebrity for its own sake as the only motivations that have any meaning, of the cheapening and vulgarization of life all to suit the agenda of organized business and to ensure that politicians can frighten and browbeat an ill-educated demoralized populations into believing that their disenfranchisement, and impoverishment is in their own interests, and also cruicially, that there is nothing they can do about it themselves, that is a lie.

The market is simply an economic mechanism to supposedly best ensure the prosperity of citizens. The government is simply a mechanism by which the powers of the collective state are organized. In America (and elsewhere) that state is regulated by law, law to which everything is supposed to be subservient, including the first citizen. That is the essence of a Republic, a society ruled by just and equitable law and law alone, that is applicable to all. Not unfettered capital markets, or reserve banks, or social security systems, or the rule of the loudest and richest, not the law of the gangs, or the rule of the gun, or state pensions, or state religion, or conspicuous wealth, or corporate power, or any of that.

Its my opinion that the free market is, and remains, the best way to regulate honest trade between free citizens, but that market and its institutions are not above the law, which primarily regulates how men and women live together in all spheres of life in a Republic. Once the law of the Republic becomes subservient to the requirements of capitalists or business interests, or soliders, or politicians, then the Republic has become an oligarchy or at worst a tryanny. This is what has fundamentally gone wrong in the Anglo Saxon world. It has become so enamored of this fashionable super-capitalism and its siren albility to create seemingly real, short term wealth, that we have subborned everything else to facilitate it and created a house of straw ruled by businessmen and their petty concerns that has blown away in a strong wind.

Post by **spot** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:22 pm

Now that, mate, is a fine post. I'll buy you a pint on the strength of that sometime.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:43 pm

spot;990655 wrote: It's not a matter of rot, it's a matter of media pressure. That's what makes a mass revolt at the ballot box totally impossible to achieve. TV and to a lesser extent newspapers simply won't allow any reaction but laughter to such a proposition. The USA is a two-party political system and both parties are capitalist.It's just proven itself to be a one-party system, and it is socialist. Pretty neat bloodless coup, I must say. I wonder if we can take it back.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:59 pm

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/mission/

Ron Paul's Campaign for Liberty wrote:

We believe with Ludwig von Mises, Henry Hazlitt, and F.A. Hayek that central banking distorts economic decisionmaking and misleads entrepreneurs into making unsound investments. Hayek won the Nobel Prize for showing how central banks’ interference with interest rates sets the stage for economic downturns. And the central bank’s ability to create money out of thin air transfers wealth from the most vulnerable to those with political pull, since it is the latter who receive the new money before the price increases it brings in its wake have yet occurred. For economic and moral reasons, therefore, we join the great twentieth-century economists in opposing the Federal Reserve System, which has reduced the value of the dollar by 95 percent since it began in 1913.

JP in USA · Post by **JP in USA** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:33 pm

Accountable;990043 wrote: Is you, or did you plagiarize? In either case, you don't indicate if you support or oppose this buyout.

The original idea of thickness of thousand million billion came from a teacher workshop I attended in Dallas nearly 10 years ago. However, all the number crunching and text therein is mine. It has been blogged on many websites by me as 'BigNumbers' 'JP' and 'JP in USA'. Had to add the USA for the blog in Belfast. It has also been submitted to the editorials of many major newspapers...

One comment stated that I was too wordy, so I truncated the original posted to the site you reference and the truncated version was placed here.

However, I do not care if the million billion trillion text shows up all over, plagerized by as many as like, as long as the math stays true. This is an image that everyone NEEDS to visualize!!! This county needs to know what 'a trillion dollars' REALLY means!!!!

By the way, the 700 billion? That alone would go about the earth 1.9 times. And that's just the bailout. That info made it to some of the other sites I blogged as well.

As for support?

I have been adding this blog to other sites today, so I will add it here as well ---

The most recent data I found states that 131+ million people filed a tax return in 2003. Round that up to 140 million for the 4 years that have passed (remember, 2008 has not yet been filed) and 700 billion becomes $5000 per tax filer. But, it is important to remember that not all filers are payers; because high school and college students who file generally get all they paid back as a refund. (And then there’s the Earned Income Credits for the baby popping poor…) I don't have any data on how many actually PAID taxes, so that $5000 could easily go up half again, or even double.

Our taxes HAVE to go up to pay for this, no matter who takes office. The only alternative to higher taxes would be for the USA to mortgage part of the country to the last remaining sovereign that can afford this level of capital – China

America:

Defended and Exploited by the Poor

Financed by the Middle Class

Enjoyed by the Rich

No, I DO NOT support paying off the businesses who pushed ARM's and Interest Only loans on poor and/or ignorant people who did not know or did not/could not understand what they were signing. Bad business led to bad practices which led to a bad situation.

To be completely incorrect, I think this country deserves Great Depression II and should go there if for no other reason to fully drive home the point that Bush is the single most devastating thing ever to happen to this country, either foreign or domestic.

Post by **spot** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:32 pm

Accountable;990732 wrote: It's just proven itself to be a one-party system, and it is socialist. Pretty neat bloodless coup, I must say. I wonder if we can take it back.

Acc, I'm a socialist. Ralph Nader's a socialist. Socialists advocate access for all citizens to state-funded health care regardless of an ability to pay. Socialists advocate state-funded safety nets which keep roofs over the heads of the indigent. What you have in the US is two parties with an identical outlook of laissez-faire unregulated capitalism driven entirely by personal greed and corrupted to the extent that the game's been fixed and nobody on the top of the heap can lose whatever mistakes they make. If you want to use the word "capitalism" for something purer then pick a third term but stop appropriating one you happen to dislike, it doesn't at all match what you're faced with and complaining about.