China skinning LIVE cats and dogs

Post by **spot** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:15 am

hoppy;971431 wrote: I have no doubts that China would skin live animals. Some of the cruelest tortures know were invented by the Chinese.

These cultural differences always seem to horrify people. You're aware that it's legal in England to bleed conscious cattle, sheep, pigs and goats to death?

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:23 am

spot;971455 wrote: These cultural differences always seem to horrify people. You're aware that it's legal in England to bleed conscious cattle, sheep, pigs and goats to death?

No, I didn't know that. Interesting. I worked in a hog slaughtering plant awhile, but not on the kill floor. I visited the kill floor. Just hearing the screams those pigs made as they were herded up the chute to be electrocuted was enough. After the kill, their throats were cut and they bled out. After seeing that, I was happy on the cutting floor cleanup crew.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:43 pm

hoppy;971431 wrote: I have no doubts that China would skin live animals. Some of the cruelest tortures know were invented by the Chinese. yeah, the export of bamboo furnature for one:wah::wah::wah:

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:50 pm

oscar;971718 wrote: yeah, the export of bamboo furnature for one:wah::wah::wah:
That just made me choke. :yh_rotfl

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:54 pm

spot;971455 wrote: These cultural differences always seem to horrify people. You're aware that it's legal in England to bleed conscious cattle, sheep, pigs and goats to death? No it's not Spot. It is illegal. Trust me, without going into my past work history, it is illegal. Any farm found doing this would be shut down & the owner prosecuted, fined or repeated offenders jailed. This includes any catering outlet found buying it from them. Farms here are approched by other religions wanting Halaal meat. It does go on but undercover. Genuine Halaal meat butchers import it from Europe mainly Turkey where they do not have our restrictions. Now Turkey is part of the European Union they are under pressure from government to bring their animal rights standards up to ours. My best friends are muslim & in the catering industry. They only use Halaal meat but would not dare approach a British farmer or supplier to get this.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:02 pm

oscar;971724 wrote: No it's not Spot. It is illegal. Trust me, without going into my past work history, it is illegal. Any farm found doing this would be shut down & the owner prosecuted, fined or repeated offenders jailed. This includes any catering outlet found buying it from them. Farms here are approched by other religions wanting Halaal meat. It does go on but undercover. Genuine Halaal meat butchers import it from Europe mainly Turkey where they do not have our restrictions. Now Turkey is part of the European Union they are under pressure from government to bring their animal rights standards up to ours. My best friends are muslim & in the catering industry. They only use Halaal meat but would not dare approach a British farmer or supplier to get this.

The BBC appears to think not :-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm

FAWC said it wanted an end to the exemption currently allowed for Kosher and Halal meat from the legal requirement to stun animals first.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:08 pm

Bryn Mawr;971730 wrote: The BBC appears to think not :-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm

Always happy to see both sides, is this undercover reporting Bryn or a well known fact??

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:09 pm

Where ar you SPC? It's lonely without you:-4

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:12 pm

oscar;971738 wrote: Always happy to see both sides, is this undercover reporting Bryn or a well known fact??

Exactly what it purports to be - a report by the BBC on a challenge to the rules governing the production of Halal and Kosher meat in the UK.

It includes the direct statement that there is currently an exception from the requirement to stun animals before slaughter in both cases.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:14 pm

oscar;971740 wrote: Where ar you SPC? It's lonely without you:-4

Almost certainly asleep - it's five in the morning over there.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:23 pm

Bryn Mawr;971749 wrote: Almost certainly asleep - it's five in the morning over there. I know Bryn but it's been nearly two days now. It feels like a week. I have developed feelings for him. I'm in SPC withdrawal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I did not know of this exception, I stand corrected. I will look at your site with interest.

Post by **spot** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:03 pm

oscar;971755 wrote: I did not know of this exception, I stand corrected. I will look at your site with interest.Come on Oscar, you seriously don't think all English Jews are vegetarian do you? There's never been a time when preparing Kosher meat's been illegal in England and it's one of the fundamental requirements that the animal's conscious when it's killed.

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:07 pm

spot;971455 wrote: These cultural differences always seem to horrify people. You're aware that it's legal in England to bleed conscious cattle, sheep, pigs and goats to death?

England does this?

how shameful!

I am stunned, shocked and uttertly disgusted!

Post by **spot** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:10 pm

Odie;971899 wrote: England does this?

how shameful!

I am stunned, shocked and uttertly disgusted!

It's general across the Western world, I don't know of a single Western country where it's illegal. You think it's illegal in Canada?

eta: now that I've looked it up, actually there are some.

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:13 pm

spot;971901 wrote: It's general across the Western world, I don't know of a single Western country where it's illegal. You think it's illegal in Canada?

I know for a fact it is illegal..............why would they kill them that way?

Post by **spot** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:17 pm

Odie;971904 wrote: I know for a fact it is illegal..............why would they kill them that way?Which of the content of these two quotes were you unaware of?

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department ... 8737Kosher foods represent a growing niche market that can be associated with any cuisine. A recent USDA Foreign Agriculture Services Study revealed that the Canadian kosher food sales increased from $480 million in 2000 to $575 million in 2001. This is a 19.7 per cent increase. There may be opportunities for Alberta food processor's to enter this niche market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher#Kas ... areKashrut prohibits slaughter of an unconscious animal, and the slaughtering is done by cutting the front of the throat first. Some animal rights groups object to kosher slaughter, claiming that it can take several minutes for the animal to die and can often cause suffering. Since the spinal cord is not severed completely at the first cut, it is thought that the slaughtered animal's nervous system continues to function during the initial moments of the slaughter, causing the animal to undergo an agonisingly slow and painful death. In 2003 in the UK, an independent advosory group - the Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC) - concluded that the way Kosher (and Halal) meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals and should be banned immediately. Kosher and halal butchers deny their method of killing animals is cruel and expressed anger over the recommendation [29].

Jewish groups point to studies showing that the kosher slaughter technique is no more painful than conventional techniques, and in most cases much quicker and less painful; the idealized emphasis on flawless procedure and tools contrasts with the often real-life sloppy production line methodology of the non-kosher slaughterhouse resulting in failure to stun the animal, as often described by animal rights advocates in other contexts

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:26 pm

how special!

if they want their meat served this way..............go back home!

don't inflict this on us!

Post by **spot** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:34 pm

Odie;971915 wrote: how special!

if they want their meat served this way..............go back home!

don't inflict this on us!

Odie, the one thing you can't do is to call for the expulsion of all non-vegetarian practising Jews from Canada, it's not on!

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:36 pm

People can eat what they like..........but common sense in slaughtering says alot!

c'mon, were not living in the dark ages............even then they didn't savagely kill an animal with cruel intent for they're benefit.

kill it instant and let it be!

would like to see this in reverse!

Post by **spot** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:39 pm

Odie;971920 wrote: what I mean is, people can eat what they like..........but common sense in slaughtering says alot!

Ah. Common sense. As opposed to religious ritual. No Odie, they don't go together at all.

My point is that Western cultural practices are equally as horrifying to other people as Eastern (or, more specifically, Korean in this case) practices. Picking out the unfamiliar and throwing your hands in the air is xenophobic. It would be a good idea to clear up your own back yard before slagging off foreigners.

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:42 pm

spot;971923 wrote: Ah. Common sense. As opposed to religious ritual. No Odie, they don't go together at all.

My point is that Western cultural practices are equally as horrifying to other people as Eastern (or, more specifically, Korean in this case) practices. Picking out the unfamiliar and throwing your hands in the air is xenophobic. It would be a good idea to clear up your own back yard before slagging off foreigners.

my backyard is clean.................I know well of different cultures............I just despise them for animal cruelty!

Post by **spot** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:47 pm

Odie;971920 wrote: kill it instant and let it be!On a technical note, the reason "stun" appears in all this discussion of humane slaughter is that you can't stop the animal's heart before it's pumped out all the blood from the carcass for you. Meat on the plate has to have been bled out or you get a rather messy unpalatable product. You either slit the throat of the conscious animal or you whap it on the head with a mallet first (or, these days, bang a rivet into its forebrain or electrocute it). What you can't do is let it die before all the blood's on the slaughterhouse floor running down the gulleys. Every slaughterhouse does one or the other and if it's for consumption by adherents of a religion which demands consciousness during the killing process then the animal's conscious.

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:58 pm

spot;971931 wrote: On a technical note, the reason "stun" appears in all this discussion of humane slaughter is that you can't stop the animal's heart before it's pumped out all the blood from the carcass for you. Meat on the plate has to have been bled out or you get a rather messy unpalatable product. You either slit the throat of the conscious animal or you whap it on the head with a mallet first (or, these days, bang a rivet into its forebrain or electrocute it). What you can't do is let it die before all the blood's on the slaughterhouse floor running down the gulleys. Every slaughterhouse does one or the other and if it's for consumption by adherents of a religion which demands consciousness during the killing process then the animal's conscious.

gulp

Post by **spot** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:03 pm

Odie;971936 wrote: gulp

spot passes Odie a sweetcorn salad and sympathises

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:12 pm

spot;971941 wrote: spot passes Odie a sweetcorn salad and sympathises

just had no idea hun................not your fault.

My brother used to work for a huge company, he started off in the slaughter house........he asked me one day if I wanted a tour.........gasp!

what is funny, people think when they see red meat, its the blood, its not.........its food dye.

It makes it look more appetizing.

so next time when you see that big red juicy steak with blood ouzzing out, it ain't blood baby, its food dye!

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:56 am

Odie;971915 wrote: how special!

if they want their meat served this way..............go back home!

don't inflict this on us! Well said. as i grew up & worked in the farming industry, i know that Farmers do not allow this. They are equally disgusted by it. As i said before, my friends are Muslim & i know they would never approach a British farmer or supplier. If it is going on in this country then at my next council meeting, i will raise this. We have many many muslim owned catering outlets here who rely on council for their licences.

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:00 am

oscar;972204 wrote: Well said. as i grew up & worked in the farming industry, i know that Farmers do not allow this. They are equally disgusted by it. As i said before, my friends are Muslim & i know they would never approach a British farmer or supplier. If it is going on in this country then at my next council meeting, i will raise this. We have many many muslim owned catering outlets here who rely on council for their licences.

You're really blind to the word Jewish here, aren't you.

Here... http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1995/Uksi_1 ... _en_19.htm

" In this Schedule references to slaughter by a religious method are references to slaughter without the infliction of unnecessary suffering (a) by the Jewish method for the food of Jews by a Jew who holds a licence in accordance with Schedule 1 (which relates to the licensing of slaughtermen) and who is duly licensed, (b) by the Muslim method for the food of Muslims by a Muslim who holds a licence in accordance with Schedule 1".

Would you like a list of license holders within the UK as well, or are you going to persist that it doesn't happen in this country?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:23 am

spot;971896 wrote: Come on Oscar, you seriously don't think all English Jews are vegetarian do you? There's never been a time when preparing Kosher meat's been illegal in England and it's one of the fundamental requirements that the animal's conscious when it's killed.No Spot. I do not believe all jews are vegetarians but i do believe in the laws British Farmers have to abide to. If i am wrong, maybe you can explain to me why "Kosher" & "Halal" meat is not readily available in our largest supermarket chains? Surely, if there is a market for it, Sainsbury Or Tesco would have it on their shelves. Especially as Britain has such a large Muslim & Jewish community. I have spoke to my Muslim friends to day & they have confirmed that they have to import their "Halal" meat from Turkey. I am not saying for one moment that this is going on but the fact that it is not on my local supermarket shelf, tells me a different story.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:25 am

Odie;971942 wrote: just had no idea hun................not your fault.

My brother used to work for a huge company, he started off in the slaughter house........he asked me one day if I wanted a tour.........gasp!

what is funny, people think when they see red meat, its the blood, its not.........its food dye.

It makes it look more appetizing.

so next time when you see that big red juicy steak with blood ouzzing out, it ain't blood baby, its food dye! Quite right. I have had many a conversation with my butcher about these dyes. The large supermarket chains are the worst. They even add the lighting so that meat looks pinker on the shelf.

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:37 am

oscar;972423 wrote: No Spot. I do not believe all jews are vegetarians but i do believe in the laws British Farmers have to abide to. If i am wrong, maybe you can explain to me why "Kosher" & "Halal" meat is not readily available in our largest supermarket chains? Surely, if there is a market for it, Sainsbury Or Tesco would have it on their shelves. Especially as Britain has such a large Muslim & Jewish community. I have spoke to my Muslim friends to day & they have confirmed that they have to import their "Halal" meat from Turkey. I am not saying for one moment that this is going on but the fact that it is not on my local supermarket shelf, tells me a different story.

My previous post here quoted the legislation which legalizes the slaughter, what more do need to show you that it's available here as locally slaughtered fresh meat?

Take a look at http://www.shechita.co.uk/licensed.htm

Do you seriously think all those butcher's shops don't source their fresh meat in the UK?

If you read the content you'll see the reason why meat "available in our largest supermarket chains" can't be kosher - the inspection processes required to make it so are far too rigorous for a supermarket to be able to qualify:There can be no assurance that kosher utensils are used exclusively or that storage and preparation surfaces are kashered. (For example, the same knife or cutting-surface could be used to cut cheese or a quiche and then used to cut a joint of meat.)How about an article from the London Jewish Chronicle?The first moves to end a long-running dispute between London’s kosher butchers and the main kashrut supervising body over increased slaughter fees were made this week.

http://website.thejc.com/home.aspx?AId= ... 0&scsrch=0

The "main kashrut supervising body" is The London Board for Shechita, a "charitable organisation operating on a non-profit basis to ensure the provision of kosher meat to the Jewish public", not some farm in the Middle East. "Slaughter fees" is self-explanatory.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:07 pm

spot;972747 wrote: My previous post here quoted the legislation which legalizes the slaughter, what more do need to show you that it's available here as locally slaughtered fresh meat?

Take a look at http://www.shechita.co.uk/licensed.htm

Do you seriously think all those butcher's shops don't source their fresh meat in the UK?

If you read the content you'll see the reason why meat "available in our largest supermarket chains" can't be kosher - the inspection processes required to make it so are far too rigorous for a supermarket to be able to qualify:There can be no assurance that kosher utensils are used exclusively or that storage and preparation surfaces are kashered. (For example, the same knife or cutting-surface could be used to cut cheese or a quiche and then used to cut a joint of meat.) I will certainly look at your site Spot. As i said earlier, i am open to both sides. However, as this country has regulated laws for health & hygiene, i can not see how these laws only can be applied to British people in the food industry. How come my muslim friends who don't understand hardly any english, know all the health rules? i.e. different coloured chopping boards for meat, fish, veg, cheese etc & different cooking utensils. Are you saying the jewish can't understand our basic laws of health & hygiene? Why is it that muslim catering outlets who use Halal meat are subject to the same inspection process as any other outlet? Yet you say that for supermarkets to sell Kosher, the inspection process is too rigourous.

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:14 pm

oscar;972781 wrote: I will certainly look at your site Spot. As i said earlier, i am open to both sides. However, as this country has regulated laws for health & hygiene, i can not see how these laws only can be applied to British people in the food industry. How come my muslim friends who don't understand hardly any english, know all the health rules? i.e. different coloured chopping boards for meat, fish, veg, cheese etc & different cooking utensils. Are you saying the jewish can't understand our basic laws of health & hygiene? Why is it that muslim catering outlets who use Halal meat are subject to the same inspection process as any other outlet? Yet you say that for supermarkets to sell Kosher, the inspection process is too rigourous.

Go and read, learn a bit, digest a few facts and then come back and talk to us about it.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:15 pm

How ever much you debate this subject Spot, the original post by Red Glitter was to make people aware to the skinning of live cats & dogs. If this country is slaughtering poultry & cattle for Halal & Kosher, people have a simple choice weather to boycott buying the stuff or not. This leads to another debate entirely & that is weather we should allow other religions in our country to go against our laws. I don't want to go down that route as i have many muslim & other ethnic minority friends in this country. That is not the thread Red Glitter started with.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:18 pm

spot;972786 wrote: Go and read, learn a bit, digest a few facts and then come back and talk to us about it. Yes i will read & possibly learn Spot because i am always happy to hear another side. I never profess to being a know all. If the cap fits--wear it.

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:18 pm

oscar;972787 wrote: That is not the thread Red Glitter started with.We went on to removing the beam from our own eye before we considered ourselves good enough to pick out the speck from someone else's. People are prone to xenophobic response when they hear of outrages in foreign lands but less keen to examine their own society. And, as you've seen, vice versa.

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:22 pm

oscar;972787 wrote: If this country is slaughtering poultry & cattle for Halal & Kosher, people have a simple choice weather to boycott buying the stuff or not.I don't suppose "if people in Eastern countries are skinning cats and dogs we have a simple choice whether to boycott buying the stuff or not" would be a parallel notion to you? I doubt whether it would.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:24 pm

spot;972792 wrote: We went on to removing the beam from our own eye before we considered ourselves good enough to pick out the speck from someone else's. People are prone to xenophobic response when they hear of outrages in foreign lands but less keen to examine their own society. And, as you've seen, vice versa. If you actually read what people have written Spot, instead of leaping to your reference books (that others don't have to rely on) you will see that i have said I AM OPEN TO BOTH SIDES. What part of that post, did you have trouble comprehending? Your very quick to reply when rattled are you not Spot?

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:28 pm

oscar;972799 wrote: If you actually read what people have written Spot, instead of leaping to your reference books (that others don't have to rely on) you will see that i have said I AM OPEN TO BOTH SIDES. What part of that post, did you have comprehending? Your very quick to reply when rattled are you not Spot?

You seem as open to information as a Jehovah's Witness at a Quaker revival. You simply won't accept that ritual slaughter is endemic in England, has been for centuries and is entirely legal, it's scarcely hidden as a furtive backyard operation. Saying you're open to both sides is one thing, getting your finger out and doing it seems to be taking an awfully long time. I comprehend the notion of being open to both sides quite easily, I just have trouble recognizing it in what you've added to this thread.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:32 pm

spot;972797 wrote: I don't suppose "if people in Eastern countries are skinning cats and dogs we have a simple choice whether to boycott buying the stuff or not" would be a parallel notion to you? I doubt whether it would. Try reading all the previous posts on this thread before leaping to those reference books as i think we already covered this one. Why don't you actually read what people have written? I will be off the p.c for a while Spot, i have a sacrificial goat to slaughter in my back garden.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:33 pm

How's that cap fitting Spot??:wah:

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:40 pm

oscar;972813 wrote: How's that cap fitting Spot??:wah:

That's the final resort of the incompetent, point and laugh when you can't cope with the facts.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:34 pm

spot;972806 wrote: You seem as open to information as a Jehovah's Witness at a Quaker revival. You simply won't accept that ritual slaughter is endemic in England, has been for centuries and is entirely legal, it's scarcely hidden as a furtive backyard operation. Saying you're open to both sides is one thing, getting your finger out and doing it seems to be taking an awfully long time. I comprehend the notion of being open to both sides quite easily, I just have trouble recognizing it in what you've added to this thread. Do you have a reference book for recognising things that you could refer to?? I do love you on threads Spot. You always bring joy to my life:p

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:41 pm

oscar;972884 wrote: Do you have a reference book for recognising things that you could refer to??Several. I'm reading Kemal Salibi and Robert Fisk at the moment.

oscar wrote: I do love you on threads Spot. You always bring joy to my life:pHave we spoken before? I don't recall the occasion if we have.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:44 pm

The thread was about China & cats & dogs. If you have problems in actually sticking to a theme Spot, why don't you post a new thread about the rituals of Kosher & Halal meat? Then, all the people who want to actually talk about what the post was put there for, can get on with it. The people who want to diverse, can then log onto your new thread, can't they? Chill out Spot.:p

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:52 pm

oscar;972895 wrote: The thread was about China & cats & dogs. If you have problems in actually sticking to a theme Spot, why don't you post a new thread about the rituals of Kosher & Halal meat? Then, all the people who want to actually talk about what the post was put there for, can get on with it. The people who want to diverse, can then log onto your new thread, can't they? Chill out Spot.:p

The relevance was hoppy posting "I have no doubts that China would skin live animals. Some of the cruelest tortures know were invented by the Chinese" and my response that "These cultural differences always seem to horrify people. You're aware that it's legal in England to bleed conscious cattle, sheep, pigs and goats to death?", my information was then challenged as untruthful and inaccurate and I've been defending my facts. Why was my information challenged?

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:24 pm

oscar;972884 wrote: Do you have a reference book for recognising things that you could refer to?? I do love you on threads Spot. You always bring joy to my life:p
:rolleyes: Google's a wonderful tool.

http://www.hedweb.com/hillman/animpain.htm

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:17 pm

spot;972892 wrote: Several. I'm reading Kemal Salibi and Robert Fisk at the moment.

Have we spoken before? I don't recall the occasion if we have. I love a google ABBY. Salibi & Fisk Spot. Did they do a summer season at Blackpool with The two Ronnie's? I think i saw them. I don't think we have Spot. I have noticed that what ever thread is being discussed, you come in at the end & you have made me laugh alot. Jimbo makes me laugh as well. Do you know him?

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:20 pm

oscar;973030 wrote: I love a google ABBY. Salibi & Fisk Spot. Did they do a summer season at Blackpool with The two Ronnie's? I think i saw them. I don't think we have Spot. I have noticed that what ever thread is being discussed, you come in at the end & you have made me laugh alot. Jimbo makes me laugh as well. Do you know him?

You forgot to add an inane LOLOLOL to that.

A word of advice - you can only mock successfully if you have the upper hand in a discussion. Those who do it from below just sound like prats.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:23 pm

I dont think religion is an acceptable reason to cause pain and suffering to another being.

Post by **spot** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:39 pm

RedGlitter;973036 wrote: I dont think religion is an acceptable reason to cause pain and suffering to another being.

What is? Why pick out just religion?