Does God consider homosexuality a sin

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:41 pm

Jester:-6

I could do that but I will give you some others instead.

Num. 31:17-18 "Now therefor, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Then in Psalm 5 we read the rather contradictory statement that "the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful."

So in one section we read that God orders war crimes and then in another we read that He abhors the bloodthirsty. Sounds like a multiple personality problem to me.

Shalom

Ted

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:47 pm

Jester:-6

You and I are both well aware of "Do not judge lest you be judged"

You actually need a Bible quote to understand a word of wisdom from one of the ancient church fathers? I think it is rather self evident. It is clearly telling us that we have enough of a burden to carry in looking after ourselves. When we are looking after others in that fashion it is only to glorify ourselves and make us feel better. "I thank God I am not as others like this sinner are".

As for the quotes I gave do you actually believe that the first one came from God!!?? It is a war crime to kill innocent non-combatant children and also to rape the women. Jesus himself cautioned us against hurting a child.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:33 pm

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:37 pm

Jester:-6

I'm astonished that you are not familiar with either!!!

Do you need a refresher course? LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:38 pm

Jester;943672 wrote: ahahahahahahahahahaha I almost told her earlier that you and her would get along well since you both decide what the bible says line by line rather than in context.

At least you're consistant Ted!

Its called the pluralist line item veto!

Jester,

You're just as selective in what you quote and what you ignore - Given the size and complexity of the Bible it could not be otherwise.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:52 pm

Bryn Mawr:-6

LOL

I did learn this summer that even the Jews do not take the Bible literally. According to the Jewish Study Bible even the Exodus is probably the result of the expulsion of the Hydsos and such an escape was only a small band of folks who journeyed back to Palestine to be with their kin.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:36 pm

Jester:-6

Do you really need a reference for those!!!!????

Shalom

Ted:-6

southern yankee · Post by **southern yankee** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:40 am

who has the right to say who is or is not going to hell. being gay should not be the only issue if one goes or not. God creates all forms of life. like i have always heard. God doesn't make JUNK. a person is good or not good. that's all is to it.

southern yankee · Post by **southern yankee** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:08 am

Jester;952276 wrote: No person on earth has the right to declare with any level of authority who is or isnt going to hell, you're exactly right. And commiting a homosexual act alone dosn't send one to hell, rather it is one factor that can be outwardly noted to be a barrier in the relationship between that person and God.

I still can't figure out why this is such a big deal? Each sin we commit, no matter how slight or large it is on the man made hirearchy of the sinchart, is one more barrier between a ckear conscience between man and God and that mans fellowship with others. I think the bible is pretty clear on that, without exception.

It wont be a mans 'sin' (throw in any sin here) thats the show stopper, it will be what he believes and accepts about who God is, and if he gave God His full place. The outward sin we see in men is just the ease of degree in which we can discern wether he has a close relationship with God or he's far from it. i agree. why is this subject bring up sooo much DRAMA?? When there are HORRIBLE staight people out there. Who do unspeakable things to one another. the gay issue i feel Some people insist on wearing BLINDERS. I feel sorry for them.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:45 am

Jester;952276 wrote: No person on earth has the right to declare with any level of authority who is or isnt going to hell, you're exactly right. And commiting a homosexual act alone dosn't send one to hell, rather it is one factor that can be outwardly noted to be a barrier in the relationship between that person and God.
Whew!!! Thank the lord. I once helped my wife pick out shoes..:-3

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:36 pm

Jester:-6

I will humour you with some of the requested references: Matt 7:1-2; Luke 6:37; John 12:47; Matt 6:4-6; Matt. 7:45.

Having listed those I wish to make a few comments. First of all there is no one correct interpretation of the Bible. There are many valid interpretations possible. Secondly there is only one absolute in the universe and that is the Divine creator. There are no other absolutes. Thirdly, in my view you are approaching on bibliolatry in which you are not only picking and choosing but denying the word's of Jesus as found in John 16:12-15 and thus putting the Bible even ahead of his words.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:38 pm

Many, since the reformation, have indeed made God in their own image.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:13 pm

Jester;952717 wrote: Why indeed...

Well to me its a refusal on th epart of humans to look things strigth in the eyes and make a call, we like to waver and coddle, and wimp out when it comes to telling folks like it is.

In short nobodys got the guts to tell anybody else the truth anymore... they are too afraid of what others think of them... I dont have that problem.

Also, its an issue that develops because of this idea that sin loves a buddy- if you call my sin not sin, then I may not call your sin, sin and we can both get away with whatever we want to do depending on how the rest of society frowns on what we both do.

Either way Im actually sick of the subject.

But thanks for helping me clarify the issue once again.

So anyone who has the guts to say "I do not believe that what you define as a sin is actually a sin" has a problem and is not telling the truth?

I am not wavering or coddling - I will not wimp out of it, I'll tell it like it is. Your sin is not my sin and I have the gut to tell the truth without being afraid of what others think of me.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:09 pm

Jester;955417 wrote: My sin is not yours, of course, my sin is mine. But the deifnition of what a sin can be is clearly defined in the bible. A homosexual act is clearly a sin under Gods design. If you commit such an act, then you are sinning. And thats what I mean, you do not get to define sin for yourself and you dont get to excuse your own sin by being easy on others, or redefining what sin is. If you say the bible says something it does in fact not say then yes, your lying.

I suppose you could be wrong, or decieved by others as to what it says, so you could be unintenionally not telling the truth, which is still a lie.

I am just following the words that you used - that which you consider to be a sin I do not recognise as a sin. Do not try to turn it into my sin / your sin in the personal.

I see your inflexibility as a sin in itself and the selectivity with which you chose your quotes as an abuse of the Bible.

Homosexuality is no more condemned by the Bible than the killing you are advocating in virtually every post you make. Call one a sin without calling the other is, in itself, a sin.

If, as you say, homosexuality is condemned by Christ as an intrinsic part of Christianity, then so is all war and killing - your preference for the death penalty and minefields round the Mexican border are no less defensible in terms of the Bible.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:21 pm

Jester:-6

No, there is no one correct interpretation. In part that is from the folks who gave us the Bible in the first place. Yes it must be interpreted in context, the context of the Bible as a whole as well as the context of the days in which it was written. The Bible is written by inspired men but it is not "God dictated". That is a very human doctrine.

I have to agree with Bryn Mawr on homosexuality. In fact Jesus said absolutely nothing about homosexuality.

Since the only absolute is the Divine Creator all else is subject to human interpretation, cultural influence etc.

To give to the Bible the authority you give it is to demean the Bible, misuse the Bible and in my view is close to idolatry if it is not idolatry. The living word is a phrase that rightly belongs to One only and that is the risen One.

Jesus clearly said in John that we had not been told everything because we were not yet ready and that when we were we would be informed. Science and scholarly study are processes established by God. It would seem that you deny that God is doing new things as our knowledge base and understanding increases.

Jesus quite clearly clarified the law in Matt 5. "You have heard it said an eye for an eye but I say unto you. The death penalty is a sin and it is evil. In this case I couldn't care less which state it is. Those that permit the death penalty are committing evil.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:25 pm

if you think about it.........does it really matter?

Pinky · Post by **Pinky** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:26 pm

Well, if god is omnipresent and omnipotent and actively disapproves of homosexuality, surely he wouldn't have allowed it to occur in the first place. Believing as such, he must have had a reason. Therefore, who are you to question how god makes people? Huh?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:45 pm

Odie/Pinky:-6:-6

Good points. Right on.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:46 pm

Ted;956586 wrote: Odie/Pinky:-6:-6

Good points. Right on.

Shalom

Ted:-6

thanks neighbour!......why debate something that is not debatable.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:52 pm

Odie:-6

Some folks still live in the dark ages. No harm in trying. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

Pinky · Post by **Pinky** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:54 pm

Ted;956593 wrote: Odie:-6

Some folks still live in the dark ages. No harm in trying. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

Yup, some folks are really gay about this sort of thing. Oops, I meant sad.

:wah:

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:55 pm

Pinky:-6

Nice one. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

Pinky · Post by **Pinky** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:57 pm

Ted;956598 wrote: Pinky:-6

Nice one. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

Thought you might get a laugh out of that one!:wah::wah:

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:52 pm

Hoss;956657 wrote: That doesn’t make sense to me. Being struck by another person isn't being killed. If you have the ability to turn your other cheek then it seems to me this isn’t even a hit that knocks you off your feet. I don't see this verse as talking about a government’s responsibility in punishing a murderer. This to me has to do with returning anger with kindness as a response from the heart. It’s just an example of how we ought to love one another. Wasn’t what Christ was accused of worthy of the death penalty according to the law? If God allowed that as part of the government then God must allow it in other governments. If it wasn’t for the death penalty we’d never have the ability to be forgiven under the sacrifice of Christ. Makes me glad that God allows it.

Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord.

Thou shalt not kill

Nothing about "unless you are a duly constituted government".

The fact that government of the time had the death penalty does not prove that God approves of it - governments of that time did many things that were sinful.

ShawnG · Post by **ShawnG** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:05 pm

First, apologies may be in order, as I haven't read all 21 pages of this thread before responding. My own thoughts on sin are in opposition even to the wording of the original question. The question is whether or not GOD considers homosexuality a sin, which frankly misses the point by a rather large margin. Sins are not things that God adjudicates and punishes according to some cosmic scoreboard. there are no point values associated with sins, no ranking of sins such that a car thief can feel superior to an embezzler etc.

Sin is the act of ignoring god for a lesser pleasure or momentary gain. A life without sin would be a simple life of worship, taking only the sustenance and actions necessary to continue in the worship of God. Very few attempt that life and even much fewer attain anything close to it. Nearly every one of us indulges constantly in those things that are not of God and only attach us to the earth. that is sin, and yes that rather large net does certainly include homosexuality. Of course it must be said that it also includes self righteousness (Jesus spent a rather large amount of time discussing that one in particular) it also includes whoring around, masturbation, thinking impure thoughts about Angelina Jolie (guilty) road rage, laying around watching football on Sunday Afternoon, and nearly one bazillion other things that all would combine to doom us to a lost eternity were it not for the sacrifice of our Lord.

We are taught that God forgives us our sin if we ask it of him, because we all are sinners. we all have urges and impulses that lead us astray, we are all afraid, we are all confused, we are all proud. God forgives those that recognize and resist those things and attempt to have a better understanding. That forgiveness is grace. It is acheived by those that foremost, recognize their sin and seek to amend, not to those who revel in their sin and seek to justify or rationalize it.

Slade1 · Post by **Slade1** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:19 pm

In answer to the original question...

I don't know if God considers homosexuality a sin, he's notoriously tight lipped on the subject. However, I know that Santa Claus absolutely hates black people, so I suppose anything is possible...

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:13 pm

Hoss;957789 wrote: Sorry about my last post, I was putting my words in the wrong reply area. Let me try again.

I don't think you finished the verse, Romans 12:19 says ‘Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.' In context the chapter is about our reasonable service to Christ throughout our daily living, this verse isn't talking about murder, it’s talking about peaceable living in association with our own personal anger. Romans 12:18 says ‘If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.’ I think what God is telling us here is to not be angry unrighteously since God is the one who will vindicate all justice eventually. Since he says 'live peaceably if at all possible', it tells me there are times when it may not be possible. There is a difference between killing and murder. The quote you gave is 'Thou shalt not kill', I think that is the over riding principle. God wants us to protect life and cherish it. He doesn’t want an individual the right to murder another, so he laid out the law in Leviticus and Deuteronomy that gives special instructions for everything from accidental killing to cold blooded murder, including the right for government to put to death those who commit murder. When the government does it, it’s acting on Gods behalf and it’s allowed by him according to the bible. If he didn't want it that way he would have never allowed it in the bible for us to base our governments and lives on. For me personally I don't know if I would desire some one to be put to death for killing my loved ones. I know I'd be angry about it that’s for sure, but I don’t know if I would want it to happen. But I do know this much I’m not the one who gets to decide, the state would do it under mandate of law, and that law is based on biblical law. So it is not ordered by an individual and it isn’t murder for that reason, there is no anger involved on behalf of the state, its justice under Gods will. But if you don’t like it you don’t have to argue that it’s not biblical do you? You can just not like the law and reject it, right? Why do you have to refute what it says? I don’t understand that about people who don’t want to follow, why do you have to change it and make a big deal that it’s all a misinterpretation? You have free will to reject it, just reject it and live the way you want to.

I do not see your reading at all. As I see it, the quote is one with turn the other cheek. It is not for us to take vengeance on our enemies, we are to leave that to the Lord who knows our heart and the heart of our enemy and can truly dispense justice - we are not fit to do so.

The verse in the letter to the Romans is reminding them of what has been said about vengeance in the scriptures - it is not the source. If you look at the passages pointed to you find :-

Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

The story of Cain and Able. Even though Cain killed his brother the Lord put a mark on him to stop the people from killing him in revenge - vengeance belonged to the Lord.

This is exactly the idea that is being referenced

GunZ · Post by **GunZ** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:59 pm

Hoss;960722 wrote: Yes Sir, but the quotes you laid out were not complete, sorry if I mistook them. But, I have had lots of time now to think about whether I want to participate in these kinds of posts and I decided not to. Sorry, I should not have started it in the first place. I know what I believe and I'm not going to change my mind and I'm not really the type to try to force what I believe on others.

Well said young man, don't let nobody shove you around. (it's me lilbull, uncle Mitch)

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:20 pm

I don't know about God but I'd call it pretty damn nasty!!!...

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:52 pm

Hoss:-6

I couldn't disagree more. God supports the states of Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot? I hardly think so. According to the "International Commentary" Jesus comment was to change the perception of the law. He did not consider it OK. He considered it evil. This position is supported by other theologians such as Crossan, Borg, Fox etc.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:56 pm

ShawnG:-6

You express a very human concept of sin. Sin is about that which separates us from the Love of God and the love of our neighbours. There is no one correct interpretation of the Bible. There are many possible, valid interpretations.

Shalom

Ted:-6

southern yankee · Post by **southern yankee** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:07 pm

you who are free of sin throw the first stone. there is alot worse things you can do or be. I will never understand the DRAMA over this.

ronin · Post by **ronin** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:45 am

what an entirely novel Idea

I suppose there is an easy way to fing out, I will tell you when I die because I am going to hell, I have it on Good authority, A minister told me so. My henious crime was the type of music I listen to.... Apparently Heavy metal is satanic...

But I will apply the same logic to this Arguement that I used back then.

Assuming god does exist and is indeed all knowing and all powerful and did actually make us in his image then......

1. He knew that people would become like that

2. in His ultimate wisdom He allowed ths deviation in his cosmic plan.

3. As he is ALL KNOWING, He knew that this would happen even before he started the whole creation thingy.

4. Knowing full well that it would happen, He did NOT put checks in place to stop it.

5. By Knowingly creating this and NOT stopping it, It can only be determined that god WANTED this deviation to occur.

therefore God in His infinate wisdom created homosexuality for a reason, assuming that he is always serious and didn't just do it to freak out the rednecks.

Do you question this last statement???? who in his ALL KNOWING wisdom created a sense of humour