Bush approves execution of Army private
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush has approved the Army's request to execute a soldier convicted of rape and murder, the White House announced Monday evening.
Pvt. Ronald Gray has been on the military's death row at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, since 1988. His execution would be the first for the U.S. military since 1961, but the White House said it expects further appeals before the sentence is carried out.
"While approving a sentence of death for a member of our armed services is a serious and difficult decision for a commander-in-chief, the president believes the facts of this case leave no doubt that the sentence is just and warranted," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said.
Gray was convicted of raping and killing a female Army private and a civilian near his post at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. He was also convicted of the rape and attempted murder of another fellow soldier in her barracks at Fort Bragg.
"The president's thoughts and prayers are with the victims of these heinous crimes and their families and all others affected," Perino said.
Both military and civilian courts found Gray responsible for the crimes committed between April 1986 and January 1987. Gray pleaded guilty to two murders and five rapes in a civilian court and was sentenced to three consecutive and five concurrent life terms.
A general court-martial at the Army's Fort Bragg then tried him and in April 1988 convicted him of two murders, an attempted murder and three rapes. He was unanimously sentenced to death.
Members of the U.S. military have been executed throughout history, but just 10 have been executed with presidential approval since 1951 under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the military's modern-day legal system.
Military courts have not yet set an execution date for Gray, who can still appeal through civilian federal courts. The Army also has sought Bush's authorization to execute another condemned soldier, Pvt. Dwight Loving, who was convicted of killing and robbing two cab drivers in 1988.
The last U.S. military execution was in 1961, when Army private John Bennett was hanged for raping and attempting to kill an 11-year-old Austrian girl. Bennett was sentenced in 1955. The U.S. military hasn't actively pursued an execution for a military prisoner since President John F. Kennedy commuted a death sentence in 1962.
Six men are currently on military death row.
Bush allowed 152 executions as governor of Texas and has signed off on three executions of federal inmates since he became president -- including that of Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, who was put to death in 2001.
Bush approves execution of Army private
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Bush approves execution of Army private
I'm surprised the concept of Double Jeopardy doesn't apply to these two sentences. I can see it doesn't, I'm just unsure why it doesn't. Double Jeopardy's been fairly fundamental for the last thousand years or so.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Bush approves execution of Army private
RedGlitter;934273 wrote: Bush approves execution of Army private
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush has approved the Army's request to execute a soldier convicted of rape and murder, the White House announced Monday evening.
Pvt. Ronald Gray has been on the military's death row at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, since 1988. His execution would be the first for the U.S. military since 1961, but the White House said it expects further appeals before the sentence is carried out.
"While approving a sentence of death for a member of our armed services is a serious and difficult decision for a commander-in-chief, the president believes the facts of this case leave no doubt that the sentence is just and warranted," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said.
Gray was convicted of raping and killing a female Army private and a civilian near his post at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. He was also convicted of the rape and attempted murder of another fellow soldier in her barracks at Fort Bragg.
"The president's thoughts and prayers are with the victims of these heinous crimes and their families and all others affected," Perino said.
Both military and civilian courts found Gray responsible for the crimes committed between April 1986 and January 1987. Gray pleaded guilty to two murders and five rapes in a civilian court and was sentenced to three consecutive and five concurrent life terms.
A general court-martial at the Army's Fort Bragg then tried him and in April 1988 convicted him of two murders, an attempted murder and three rapes. He was unanimously sentenced to death.
Members of the U.S. military have been executed throughout history, but just 10 have been executed with presidential approval since 1951 under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the military's modern-day legal system.
Military courts have not yet set an execution date for Gray, who can still appeal through civilian federal courts. The Army also has sought Bush's authorization to execute another condemned soldier, Pvt. Dwight Loving, who was convicted of killing and robbing two cab drivers in 1988.
The last U.S. military execution was in 1961, when Army private John Bennett was hanged for raping and attempting to kill an 11-year-old Austrian girl. Bennett was sentenced in 1955. The U.S. military hasn't actively pursued an execution for a military prisoner since President John F. Kennedy commuted a death sentence in 1962.
Six men are currently on military death row.
Bush allowed 152 executions as governor of Texas and has signed off on three executions of federal inmates since he became president -- including that of Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, who was put to death in 2001.
I'd say 20 years is plenty of time to exhaust appeals. The vicims' families have been strung along long enough.
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush has approved the Army's request to execute a soldier convicted of rape and murder, the White House announced Monday evening.
Pvt. Ronald Gray has been on the military's death row at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, since 1988. His execution would be the first for the U.S. military since 1961, but the White House said it expects further appeals before the sentence is carried out.
"While approving a sentence of death for a member of our armed services is a serious and difficult decision for a commander-in-chief, the president believes the facts of this case leave no doubt that the sentence is just and warranted," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said.
Gray was convicted of raping and killing a female Army private and a civilian near his post at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. He was also convicted of the rape and attempted murder of another fellow soldier in her barracks at Fort Bragg.
"The president's thoughts and prayers are with the victims of these heinous crimes and their families and all others affected," Perino said.
Both military and civilian courts found Gray responsible for the crimes committed between April 1986 and January 1987. Gray pleaded guilty to two murders and five rapes in a civilian court and was sentenced to three consecutive and five concurrent life terms.
A general court-martial at the Army's Fort Bragg then tried him and in April 1988 convicted him of two murders, an attempted murder and three rapes. He was unanimously sentenced to death.
Members of the U.S. military have been executed throughout history, but just 10 have been executed with presidential approval since 1951 under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the military's modern-day legal system.
Military courts have not yet set an execution date for Gray, who can still appeal through civilian federal courts. The Army also has sought Bush's authorization to execute another condemned soldier, Pvt. Dwight Loving, who was convicted of killing and robbing two cab drivers in 1988.
The last U.S. military execution was in 1961, when Army private John Bennett was hanged for raping and attempting to kill an 11-year-old Austrian girl. Bennett was sentenced in 1955. The U.S. military hasn't actively pursued an execution for a military prisoner since President John F. Kennedy commuted a death sentence in 1962.
Six men are currently on military death row.
Bush allowed 152 executions as governor of Texas and has signed off on three executions of federal inmates since he became president -- including that of Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, who was put to death in 2001.
I'd say 20 years is plenty of time to exhaust appeals. The vicims' families have been strung along long enough.
Bush approves execution of Army private
The US has the death penalty for murderers.
Just because this animal wore a uniform it does not make him an exception to the rule.
He and his supporters should stop bleating.
His victims received no mercy.
Just because this animal wore a uniform it does not make him an exception to the rule.
He and his supporters should stop bleating.
His victims received no mercy.
Bush approves execution of Army private
Nobody has an explanation for him being tried twice under different jurisdictions for the same crimes?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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chonsigirl
- Posts: 33633
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am
Bush approves execution of Army private
I don't think it is technically double jeopardy, since it is tried in two separate court systems. Each court has it's own area of jurisdiction, and their own system of appeal courts.
Bush approves execution of Army private
chonsigirl;934760 wrote: I don't think it is technically double jeopardy, since it is tried in two separate court systems. Each court has it's own area of jurisdiction, and their own system of appeal courts.
Historically in England that's not what happened. One system of courts claimed jurisdiction and that eliminated the other branches of law from trying a case a second time.
Your US fifth amendment provisions are discussed at http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/ ... amdt5a_hd7
They say that two areas of government might regard a crime from different aspects and try the same crime from each viewpoint. That's why I asked in this case, because both courts have brought identical charges. The only thing different are the sentences. As far as I can see, anyway. But they look like trials of the exact same crime under the exact same laws. What else could Double Jeopardy have ever been a rule about, if not that?
Historically in England that's not what happened. One system of courts claimed jurisdiction and that eliminated the other branches of law from trying a case a second time.
Your US fifth amendment provisions are discussed at http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/ ... amdt5a_hd7
They say that two areas of government might regard a crime from different aspects and try the same crime from each viewpoint. That's why I asked in this case, because both courts have brought identical charges. The only thing different are the sentences. As far as I can see, anyway. But they look like trials of the exact same crime under the exact same laws. What else could Double Jeopardy have ever been a rule about, if not that?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bush approves execution of Army private
spot;934750 wrote: Nobody has an explanation for him being tried twice under different jurisdictions for the same crimes?
This happens due to one court being a Military Court and the other a Civilian Court. Double Jeopardy only applies to Civilian Courts. It's fairly common for Military Personnel to be prosecuted in both courts for certain crimes and then have to serve out the individual sentences.
This happens due to one court being a Military Court and the other a Civilian Court. Double Jeopardy only applies to Civilian Courts. It's fairly common for Military Personnel to be prosecuted in both courts for certain crimes and then have to serve out the individual sentences.
Bush approves execution of Army private
Lon;934788 wrote: This happens due to one court being a Military Court and the other a Civilian Court. Double Jeopardy only applies to Civilian Courts. It's fairly common for Military Personnel to be prosecuted in both courts for certain crimes and then have to serve out the individual sentences.
What a shameful state of affairs that is, then. Why on earth is it considered just?
What a shameful state of affairs that is, then. Why on earth is it considered just?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bush approves execution of Army private
spot;934794 wrote: What a shameful state of affairs that is, then. Why on earth is it considered just?
I guess one could make a case for a crime being committed by a member of the Military as representing a crime against the Military and therefore punishable by the Military. (Dishonoring the uniform etc.) And the Civilian Court must get it's pound of flesh as well.
If a soldier were to rob a convenience store for example---he would be Courts Martialed, loss of pay and benefits and no doubt serve time in a Federal or Military prison (Levenworth), in addition, he would have to satisfy a Civilian Court. The combined sentences however might not necessarily be greater than if one court had sentenced him
I guess one could make a case for a crime being committed by a member of the Military as representing a crime against the Military and therefore punishable by the Military. (Dishonoring the uniform etc.) And the Civilian Court must get it's pound of flesh as well.
If a soldier were to rob a convenience store for example---he would be Courts Martialed, loss of pay and benefits and no doubt serve time in a Federal or Military prison (Levenworth), in addition, he would have to satisfy a Civilian Court. The combined sentences however might not necessarily be greater than if one court had sentenced him
Bush approves execution of Army private
When a monk or priest in the Middle Ages committed a civil crime he was tried in a religious court. Because he'd been tried in a religious court he was immune from prosecution by a secular court. Had he not been subject to a religious court the crime would have been tried by the secular court. That separation was an avoidance of double jeopardy and the procedure existed in order to avoid injustice.
You're describing what seems an identical system with no such protection. I don't see why anyone would consider it fair.
You're describing what seems an identical system with no such protection. I don't see why anyone would consider it fair.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bush approves execution of Army private
Jester;934812 wrote: The fact of the matter is a soldier is held to a higher standard than a civilian.You're kidding me. You said that with a straight face? Did you not read my post this week about Tiger Force, for example?
Have you not read all the posts I've made about the pitifully minimal sentences handed down for atrocities in Iraq? http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=28 for example? Two months' house arrest and a fine of $6,000?
That's the US army sticking two fingers in the air at justice.
Have you not read all the posts I've made about the pitifully minimal sentences handed down for atrocities in Iraq? http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=28 for example? Two months' house arrest and a fine of $6,000?
That's the US army sticking two fingers in the air at justice.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bush approves execution of Army private
spot;934809 wrote: When a monk or priest in the Middle Ages committed a civil crime he was tried in a religious court. Because he'd been tried in a religious court he was immune from prosecution by a secular court. Had he not been subject to a religious court the crime would have been tried by the secular court. That separation was an avoidance of double jeopardy and the procedure existed in order to avoid injustice.
You're describing what seems an identical system with no such protection. I don't see why anyone would consider it fair.
What would be unfair is if the total sentences were disproportionate. In the cases that have made the press and with which I am familiar credit was given for time served in the military prison or vice versa. It isn't likely that the total punishment would be excessive or exceed what one court alone might dictate. Death is death and as long as it's the law does it really matter which court metes out the death?
You're describing what seems an identical system with no such protection. I don't see why anyone would consider it fair.
What would be unfair is if the total sentences were disproportionate. In the cases that have made the press and with which I am familiar credit was given for time served in the military prison or vice versa. It isn't likely that the total punishment would be excessive or exceed what one court alone might dictate. Death is death and as long as it's the law does it really matter which court metes out the death?
Bush approves execution of Army private
Lon;934820 wrote: What would be unfair is if the total sentences were disproportionate. In the cases that have made the press and with which I am familiar credit was given for time served in the military prison or vice versa. It isn't likely that the total punishment would be excessive or exceed what one court alone might dictate. Death is death and as long as it's the law does it really matter which court metes out the death?
One court didn't. The greater of the two attempts of punishment's imposed. Authority has two bites at the cherry. That's what the Fifth Amendment clause was intended to prevent.
One court didn't. The greater of the two attempts of punishment's imposed. Authority has two bites at the cherry. That's what the Fifth Amendment clause was intended to prevent.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bush approves execution of Army private
spot;934817 wrote: You're kidding me. You said that with a straight face? Did you not read my post this week about Tiger Force, for example?
Have you not read all the posts I've made about the pitifully minimal sentences handed down for atrocities in Iraq? http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=28 for example? Two months' house arrest and a fine of $6,000?
That's the US army sticking two fingers in the air at justice.
I just watched a DVD Doco the other night called Frontline "Rules of Engagement". It's a true case about a group of U.S. Marines killing 15 or 16 civilians (2006 I believe), the subsequent investigations and results. It was a real eye opener. It wasn't Pro U.S. or Pro Military, but it did show how an event like this can be manipulated to serve anyone's particular agenda. The real problem of course is war in general.
In this particular case I felt that those punished deserved it.
You would enjoy the DVD I'm sure.
Have you not read all the posts I've made about the pitifully minimal sentences handed down for atrocities in Iraq? http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=28 for example? Two months' house arrest and a fine of $6,000?
That's the US army sticking two fingers in the air at justice.
I just watched a DVD Doco the other night called Frontline "Rules of Engagement". It's a true case about a group of U.S. Marines killing 15 or 16 civilians (2006 I believe), the subsequent investigations and results. It was a real eye opener. It wasn't Pro U.S. or Pro Military, but it did show how an event like this can be manipulated to serve anyone's particular agenda. The real problem of course is war in general.
In this particular case I felt that those punished deserved it.
You would enjoy the DVD I'm sure.
Bush approves execution of Army private
Lon;934836 wrote: In this particular case I felt that those punished deserved it.Those punished for torture at Abu Ghraib didn't. Reservists carefully selected to be ignorant of the legal protocols and encouraged by unidentified agency men to do what they did, and then they're the ones put in court for it? They're political prisoners, those guards. Victims of a callous deliberate system with no checks on it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bush approves execution of Army private
spot;934846 wrote: Those punished for torture at Abu Ghraib didn't. Reservists carefully selected to be ignorant of the legal protocols and encouraged by unidentified agency men to do what they did, and then they're the ones put in court for it? They're political prisoners, those guards. Victims of a callous deliberate system with no checks on it.
Well golly gee Spot--------we just don't have uniform applicability of our laws like you have in the UK, what can I say?
Why did we incarcerate Japanese American citizens during WW2?
Well golly gee Spot--------we just don't have uniform applicability of our laws like you have in the UK, what can I say?
Why did we incarcerate Japanese American citizens during WW2?
Bush approves execution of Army private
Lon;934864 wrote: Why did we incarcerate Japanese American citizens during WW2?To protect yourselves against fifth column sabotage, quite justifiably.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bush approves execution of Army private
spot;934867 wrote: To protect yourselves against fifth column sabotage, quite justifiably.
Justifiably????
Oh----then why didn't we incarcerate German and Italian American citizens?
Justifiably????
Oh----then why didn't we incarcerate German and Italian American citizens?
Bush approves execution of Army private
Lon;934869 wrote: Justifiably????
Oh----then why didn't we incarcerate German and Italian American citizens?
You'd have run out of soldiers.
We, on the other hand, did incarcerate all our German and Italian citizens.
You're pretending it wasn't justifiable?
Oh----then why didn't we incarcerate German and Italian American citizens?
You'd have run out of soldiers.
We, on the other hand, did incarcerate all our German and Italian citizens.
You're pretending it wasn't justifiable?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bush approves execution of Army private
spot;934881 wrote: You'd have run out of soldiers.
We, on the other hand, did incarcerate all our German and Italian citizens.
You're pretending it wasn't justifiable?
Spot ---we are not communicating very well. Must be a bit late your way.
Of course it was not justified. We are talking abut AMERICAN CITIZENS of Japanese ancestry, some second generation, not Japanese Citizens living in America. It was pure racism in my view-------yellow peril and all that crap.
We did not incarcerate German and Italians with AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP
We, on the other hand, did incarcerate all our German and Italian citizens.
You're pretending it wasn't justifiable?
Spot ---we are not communicating very well. Must be a bit late your way.
Of course it was not justified. We are talking abut AMERICAN CITIZENS of Japanese ancestry, some second generation, not Japanese Citizens living in America. It was pure racism in my view-------yellow peril and all that crap.
We did not incarcerate German and Italians with AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP
Bush approves execution of Army private
Lon;934894 wrote: Spot ---we are not communicating very well. Must be a bit late your way.
Of course it was not justified. We are talking abut AMERICAN CITIZENS of Japanese ancestry, some second generation, not Japanese Citizens living in America. It was pure racism in my view-------yellow peril and all that crap.
We did not incarcerate German and Italians with AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP
We certainly incarcerated UK citizens of German and Italian origin during World War 2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Regulation_18B discusses the political detainees who were UK citizens, most of the 2,000 held being of German origin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... sle_of_Man discusses the German and Italian aliens (around 67,000 of them, all called to interview, some detained for the duration, most cleared). The first link is the legislation used to detain UK citizens without trial during wartime which is what we're specifically discussing. The second link's for contrast to show the distinction.
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook ... intern.htm focuses rather more on what we did in World War 1 but the World War 2 camps get a mention.
http://www.invaluable.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?lotTitle=[+Paper+Ephemera+]+WWII+-+British+internment+camp&lotRef=Z3EI1YS275 is specifically World War 2. It sounds a rather based account of an interesting document.
Of course it was not justified. We are talking abut AMERICAN CITIZENS of Japanese ancestry, some second generation, not Japanese Citizens living in America. It was pure racism in my view-------yellow peril and all that crap.
We did not incarcerate German and Italians with AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP
We certainly incarcerated UK citizens of German and Italian origin during World War 2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Regulation_18B discusses the political detainees who were UK citizens, most of the 2,000 held being of German origin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... sle_of_Man discusses the German and Italian aliens (around 67,000 of them, all called to interview, some detained for the duration, most cleared). The first link is the legislation used to detain UK citizens without trial during wartime which is what we're specifically discussing. The second link's for contrast to show the distinction.
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook ... intern.htm focuses rather more on what we did in World War 1 but the World War 2 camps get a mention.
http://www.invaluable.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?lotTitle=[+Paper+Ephemera+]+WWII+-+British+internment+camp&lotRef=Z3EI1YS275 is specifically World War 2. It sounds a rather based account of an interesting document.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bush approves execution of Army private
spot;934794 wrote: What a shameful state of affairs that is, then. Why on earth is it considered just?
Had the one court found him innocent and the other one guilty then that would have been unjust and shameful but neither court had any hesitation in finding him guilty. The only difference is in the way they view the gravity of the offences which reflects their different starting points.
He was in the military and he broke their rules so they punished him. His crime was against civilians so the civilian court punished him. Which would you suggest cede the right to try him? Justice must be seen to be done in both jurisdictions.
Had the one court found him innocent and the other one guilty then that would have been unjust and shameful but neither court had any hesitation in finding him guilty. The only difference is in the way they view the gravity of the offences which reflects their different starting points.
He was in the military and he broke their rules so they punished him. His crime was against civilians so the civilian court punished him. Which would you suggest cede the right to try him? Justice must be seen to be done in both jurisdictions.
Bush approves execution of Army private
Bryn Mawr;934912 wrote: He was in the military and he broke their rules so they punished him. His crime was against civilians so the civilian court punished him. Which would you suggest cede the right to try him? Justice must be seen to be done in both jurisdictions.That's a departure from the history of English law. Okay, so it's what they do, it's not what their antecedent courts did, they've made up a new principle. I think it's retrograde, one jurisdiction should acknowledge the other to be superior for any given defendant. Two trials each resulting in a valid verdict and sentence for the same crime is unjust.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bush approves execution of Army private
spot;934909 wrote: We certainly incarcerated UK citizens of German and Italian origin during World War 2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Regulation_18B discusses the political detainees who were UK citizens, most of the 2,000 held being of German origin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... sle_of_Man discusses the German and Italian aliens (around 67,000 of them, all called to interview, some detained for the duration, most cleared). The first link is the legislation used to detain UK citizens without trial during wartime which is what we're specifically discussing. The second link's for contrast to show the distinction.
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook ... intern.htm focuses rather more on what we did in World War 1 but the World War 2 camps get a mention.
http://www.invaluable.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?lotTitle=[+Paper+Ephemera+]+WWII+-+British+internment+camp&lotRef=Z3EI1YS275 is specifically World War 2. It sounds a rather based account of an interesting document.
What the U.S. did to American Citizens of Japanese ancestry was wrong and totally unjustifiable from several standpoints. German and Italians were not encamped as were the Japanese. If England encamped their citizens of German and Italian ancestry they too were wrong in my view.
On the west coast of California thousands of Japanese families were given 48 hours to liquidate their businesses, farms and relocate to camps in the desert where no one had ever lived before or since. They were never fully compensated for their financial losses. A paltry lump sum was awarded to each camp survivor a few years ago. I think it's of interest to mention that the the most decorated American Unit of WW 2 was the 442nd Regimental Combat Team (all Japanese Americans). There casualties and deaths were high. They had something to prove.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Regulation_18B discusses the political detainees who were UK citizens, most of the 2,000 held being of German origin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... sle_of_Man discusses the German and Italian aliens (around 67,000 of them, all called to interview, some detained for the duration, most cleared). The first link is the legislation used to detain UK citizens without trial during wartime which is what we're specifically discussing. The second link's for contrast to show the distinction.
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook ... intern.htm focuses rather more on what we did in World War 1 but the World War 2 camps get a mention.
http://www.invaluable.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?lotTitle=[+Paper+Ephemera+]+WWII+-+British+internment+camp&lotRef=Z3EI1YS275 is specifically World War 2. It sounds a rather based account of an interesting document.
What the U.S. did to American Citizens of Japanese ancestry was wrong and totally unjustifiable from several standpoints. German and Italians were not encamped as were the Japanese. If England encamped their citizens of German and Italian ancestry they too were wrong in my view.
On the west coast of California thousands of Japanese families were given 48 hours to liquidate their businesses, farms and relocate to camps in the desert where no one had ever lived before or since. They were never fully compensated for their financial losses. A paltry lump sum was awarded to each camp survivor a few years ago. I think it's of interest to mention that the the most decorated American Unit of WW 2 was the 442nd Regimental Combat Team (all Japanese Americans). There casualties and deaths were high. They had something to prove.
Bush approves execution of Army private
What does the phrase Fifth Column mean to you, Lon?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bush approves execution of Army private
spot;934924 wrote: What does the phrase Fifth Column mean to you, Lon?
C'mon now mate--------stop playing games. Germans and Italians were equally capable of of Fifth Column activities. Explain the difference to me as to why they were treated differently than the Japanese here in the U.S.
England is another matter.
C'mon now mate--------stop playing games. Germans and Italians were equally capable of of Fifth Column activities. Explain the difference to me as to why they were treated differently than the Japanese here in the U.S.
England is another matter.
Bush approves execution of Army private
fuzzy butt;934933 wrote: does anyone know the term "sleeper"?
I do.
I do.
Bush approves execution of Army private
Lon;934927 wrote: C'mon now mate--------stop playing games. Germans and Italians were equally capable of of Fifth Column activities. Explain the difference to me as to why they were treated differently than the Japanese here in the U.S.
England is another matter.
I thought I was speaking for England here. We were entirely unselective on who we rounded up as far as Fifth Columnists are concerned. You have to bear in mind that we were at war for over two years with Germany and Italy before we declared war on Japan, so arresting UK citizens who were of Japanese origin wasn't high on our list of pastimes until the half time whistle went.
Explain why US citizens of German and Italian ancestry were treated differently than US citizens of Japanese ancestry in the US, when we English were quite even-handed.
England is another matter.
I thought I was speaking for England here. We were entirely unselective on who we rounded up as far as Fifth Columnists are concerned. You have to bear in mind that we were at war for over two years with Germany and Italy before we declared war on Japan, so arresting UK citizens who were of Japanese origin wasn't high on our list of pastimes until the half time whistle went.
Explain why US citizens of German and Italian ancestry were treated differently than US citizens of Japanese ancestry in the US, when we English were quite even-handed.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Bush approves execution of Army private
spot;934938 wrote: I thought I was speaking for England here. We were entirely unselective on who we rounded up as far as Fifth Columnists are concerned. You have to bear in mind that we were at war for over two years with Germany and Italy before we declared war on Japan, so arresting UK citizens who were of Japanese origin wasn't high on our list of pastimes until the half time whistle went.
Explain why US citizens of German and Italian ancestry were treated differently than US citizens of Japanese ancestry in the US, when we English were quite even-handed.
At least England was selective about who they suspected of possible Fifth Column Activities. The U.S. just herded up all the Japanese and encamped them. As to why? Nothing but pure racism in my view. I am one Yank that's not afraid to point out some of my countries warts and blemishes.
England has a few I suspect.
Explain why US citizens of German and Italian ancestry were treated differently than US citizens of Japanese ancestry in the US, when we English were quite even-handed.
At least England was selective about who they suspected of possible Fifth Column Activities. The U.S. just herded up all the Japanese and encamped them. As to why? Nothing but pure racism in my view. I am one Yank that's not afraid to point out some of my countries warts and blemishes.
England has a few I suspect.