Fundamentalism is to be found in all of the great faiths of the world. It is a very dangerous position as can be seen by Islamic terrorists or Sikh terrorists or those within Christendom that call for the assassination of presidents or shoot abortion doctors or call for the execution of folks like gays and the handicap. Such an approach could even lead to a world conflagration when some leader decides to hasten the "second coming" by instigating a nuclear war.
Shalom
Ted
Fundamentalism
Fundamentalism
Ted;897715 wrote: Fundamentalism is to be found in all of the great faiths of the world. It is a very dangerous position as can be seen by Islamic terrorists or Sikh terrorists or those within Christendom that call for the assassination of presidents or shoot abortion doctors or call for the execution of folks like gays and the handicap. Such an approach could even lead to a world conflagration when some leader decides to hasten the "second coming" by instigating a nuclear war.
Shalom
Ted
So are you worried about GW Bush?
Shalom
Ted
So are you worried about GW Bush?
Fundamentalism
gmc:-6
Yes, I am worried about GWB and any successor that might be supported by the Christian right. After all Robertson one called for the assassination of President Chevez of Venezuela. Then one listens to the likes of the late Falwell etc.
There are those who would love to hasten what they believe to be the "last days".
Shalom
Ted:-6
Yes, I am worried about GWB and any successor that might be supported by the Christian right. After all Robertson one called for the assassination of President Chevez of Venezuela. Then one listens to the likes of the late Falwell etc.
There are those who would love to hasten what they believe to be the "last days".
Shalom
Ted:-6
Fundamentalism
jester:-6
Good to see you back. I wondered what you were doing.
Having spent a great deal of time studying this particular issue I can say no I am not misusing the term.
It is fine for anyone to say they are not true Christians. That is a judgment call. These people believe they are and that someone like me is from the non-existent Satan. Many of the 22 000 Christian denominations around the world think they are the only ones who have it right. The reconstructionists believe they are true Christians.
The American right wing, the moral majority as they are known are part of this group. It also appears to me that GWB is part of or certainly close to this group. These folks hold a great deal of power in America and they are dangerous.
DrJ has been pointing out some of this in his very accurate comments though I cannot comment on much of what he says as I do not live in the US. That being said scholars and many other ordinary people are referring to America as the new Roman Empire. All such empires were evil in many ways and eventually collapsed.
It has absolutely nothing to do with what I believe. It has everything to do with accurate observation. Some take the Bible literally and are fine Christian people. Others take it literally and are very dangerous people.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Good to see you back. I wondered what you were doing.
Having spent a great deal of time studying this particular issue I can say no I am not misusing the term.
It is fine for anyone to say they are not true Christians. That is a judgment call. These people believe they are and that someone like me is from the non-existent Satan. Many of the 22 000 Christian denominations around the world think they are the only ones who have it right. The reconstructionists believe they are true Christians.
The American right wing, the moral majority as they are known are part of this group. It also appears to me that GWB is part of or certainly close to this group. These folks hold a great deal of power in America and they are dangerous.
DrJ has been pointing out some of this in his very accurate comments though I cannot comment on much of what he says as I do not live in the US. That being said scholars and many other ordinary people are referring to America as the new Roman Empire. All such empires were evil in many ways and eventually collapsed.
It has absolutely nothing to do with what I believe. It has everything to do with accurate observation. Some take the Bible literally and are fine Christian people. Others take it literally and are very dangerous people.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Fundamentalism
jester:-6
"The US is not like the Roman empire." I would most strongly disagree. What is the difference between putting Herod into power and putting Saddam into power? The US supports China which is communist but decries Cuba which was ruled by a corrupt dictator Batista, supported by the US, who was defeated by Castro. That is pure hypocrisy. I could list dozens of others but have already done so elsewhere. Who put the Taliban in Power? Who supported a dictator named Sharrif in Pakistan? Why the intense interest in the past in getting rid of Daniel Ellsberg? Was someone actually afraid of the truth.
The American supreme court has declared Guantanamo prison illegal but it still exists. The American empire refuses to join the world court. I wonder why? Once again are they afraid of the truth coming out?
Roman imperial theology was peace through victory. American imperial theology is exactly the same "peace through victory.
Jesus program was peace through justice and not peace through victory.
In ancient Rome the rich lorded it over the poor and stacked the cards in their (the rich's) favor. In American the rich lord it over the poor and make sure the laws favor the rich.
Many Americans including American scholars refer to America as an evil empire. This was done as early as the 1830" by a great American poet whose name escapes me at the moment as well as the 1930 by another great American poet.
"Today the income of the richest 225 people in the world is equal to the income of 3 billion poor people" Matthew Fox. Many of these live in the US. Christ came to assist the poor and the disenfranchised that existed in his day. How many Americans are poor, disenfranchised, without any health care, live in poverty or are homeless.? Matthew Fox says quite openly that rural America is "third world".
I heard the news tonight and literally roared with laughter that now that North Korea has handed in a paper it is no longer evil. Unfortunately this is no joke.
As for Robertson, I list Falwell, Phelps etc. in the same category. The Christian right does exert a lot of power and continually want more. It is only time until they do control the government. It is coming unless of course the empire collapses first. I cannot remember specifics from Falwell but have listened to him enough.
We may say that these other churches are not true Christians but that is only the judgment of some. Those other churches indeed believe they are Christians.
Shalom
Ted:-6
"The US is not like the Roman empire." I would most strongly disagree. What is the difference between putting Herod into power and putting Saddam into power? The US supports China which is communist but decries Cuba which was ruled by a corrupt dictator Batista, supported by the US, who was defeated by Castro. That is pure hypocrisy. I could list dozens of others but have already done so elsewhere. Who put the Taliban in Power? Who supported a dictator named Sharrif in Pakistan? Why the intense interest in the past in getting rid of Daniel Ellsberg? Was someone actually afraid of the truth.
The American supreme court has declared Guantanamo prison illegal but it still exists. The American empire refuses to join the world court. I wonder why? Once again are they afraid of the truth coming out?
Roman imperial theology was peace through victory. American imperial theology is exactly the same "peace through victory.
Jesus program was peace through justice and not peace through victory.
In ancient Rome the rich lorded it over the poor and stacked the cards in their (the rich's) favor. In American the rich lord it over the poor and make sure the laws favor the rich.
Many Americans including American scholars refer to America as an evil empire. This was done as early as the 1830" by a great American poet whose name escapes me at the moment as well as the 1930 by another great American poet.
"Today the income of the richest 225 people in the world is equal to the income of 3 billion poor people" Matthew Fox. Many of these live in the US. Christ came to assist the poor and the disenfranchised that existed in his day. How many Americans are poor, disenfranchised, without any health care, live in poverty or are homeless.? Matthew Fox says quite openly that rural America is "third world".
I heard the news tonight and literally roared with laughter that now that North Korea has handed in a paper it is no longer evil. Unfortunately this is no joke.
As for Robertson, I list Falwell, Phelps etc. in the same category. The Christian right does exert a lot of power and continually want more. It is only time until they do control the government. It is coming unless of course the empire collapses first. I cannot remember specifics from Falwell but have listened to him enough.
We may say that these other churches are not true Christians but that is only the judgment of some. Those other churches indeed believe they are Christians.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Fundamentalism
jester:-6
For some good information on western Christendom I recommend two books; "A History of Christianity" by Paul Johnson, and "History of Christianity" by Jonathon Hill.
Shalom
Ted:-6
For some good information on western Christendom I recommend two books; "A History of Christianity" by Paul Johnson, and "History of Christianity" by Jonathon Hill.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Fundamentalism
jester:-6
I don't have a great deal of time at this moment but will make a few comments. That you dislike Karen Armstrong is certainly based on your biases. Her work is well recognized among scholarly and academic circles. I happen to think Karen is much closer to the truth.
Now to the second last post.
To say the US did not put Saddam in power but used its influence . . . is nothing more than a play on words. The US has been meddling in nations all around the world in an attempt to spread its power and control. That is, simply put, the behaviour of an empire: Nicaragua, Philippines, Viet Nam, Iraq, North Korea, Iran, Granada, Chile etc. Pressing the US's right to have nuclear weapons but denying others. Sounds like "Do as I say not as I do."
William Butler Yeats wrote in his poem concerning America, "The Stare's Nest by My Window" (1922) the following "We had fed the heart on fantasies, The heart's grown brutal from the fare." He goes on to talk about empire.
"There is indeed a certain parallelism between the march of the Roman Empire from Italy, around the Mediterranean, and out to what they called 'the earth' and our own advance from continental, through hemispheric,, and on to global American Empire that moved the creation of this book. That parallelism is repeated again and again today--sometimes proudly, sometimes sadly, sometimes with approval, sometimes with disapproval.
In the past year, I have read about a dozen books on this topic--mostly on the sad and disapproving side of it. Her is but one example, from Chalmers Johnson';s 2004 book "The Sorrows of Empire:
'Americans like to say they the world changed as a result of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. It would be more accurate to say that the attacks produced a dangerous change in the thinking of some of our leaders, who began to see our republic as a genuine empire, a new Rome, the Greatest colossus in history, no longer bound by international law, the concern of all or any constraints on its use of military force, (p3)'
Furthermore, his chapter 3 is entitled 'Toward the New Rome.' He emphasizes that America is 'not an empire of colonies but an empire of bases' (p23)", but that we are still 'the second coming of the Roman Empire' (p284)" p 3 "God and Empire", J. D. Crossan.
As far as the world court being a farce I would suggest that nothing could be further from the truth. The real issue is if the US wants to commit war crimes it thinks it can get away with it. Witness Guantanamo Bay. To say it is a process to be worked out is purely a self defense statement. The international community calls it illegal. That sounds a lot like 'empire' to me. We will do what we want regardless of what the world thinks.
Perhaps you are blinded by your own nationalism. Hypocrisy it would seem is OK for the US. The US preaches democracy but runs around helping install and prop up dictators. My own country is not free from hypocrisy. The Canadian government permitted an American psychiatrist to conduct serious and very destructive experiments on people in Montreal during the 1950's. This is what Mengela was doing for Germany. This is OK? No this was and is evil. Soldiers, both Canadian and American exposed, deliberately, as an experiment, to nuclear explosions--evil.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I don't have a great deal of time at this moment but will make a few comments. That you dislike Karen Armstrong is certainly based on your biases. Her work is well recognized among scholarly and academic circles. I happen to think Karen is much closer to the truth.
Now to the second last post.
To say the US did not put Saddam in power but used its influence . . . is nothing more than a play on words. The US has been meddling in nations all around the world in an attempt to spread its power and control. That is, simply put, the behaviour of an empire: Nicaragua, Philippines, Viet Nam, Iraq, North Korea, Iran, Granada, Chile etc. Pressing the US's right to have nuclear weapons but denying others. Sounds like "Do as I say not as I do."
William Butler Yeats wrote in his poem concerning America, "The Stare's Nest by My Window" (1922) the following "We had fed the heart on fantasies, The heart's grown brutal from the fare." He goes on to talk about empire.
"There is indeed a certain parallelism between the march of the Roman Empire from Italy, around the Mediterranean, and out to what they called 'the earth' and our own advance from continental, through hemispheric,, and on to global American Empire that moved the creation of this book. That parallelism is repeated again and again today--sometimes proudly, sometimes sadly, sometimes with approval, sometimes with disapproval.
In the past year, I have read about a dozen books on this topic--mostly on the sad and disapproving side of it. Her is but one example, from Chalmers Johnson';s 2004 book "The Sorrows of Empire:
'Americans like to say they the world changed as a result of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. It would be more accurate to say that the attacks produced a dangerous change in the thinking of some of our leaders, who began to see our republic as a genuine empire, a new Rome, the Greatest colossus in history, no longer bound by international law, the concern of all or any constraints on its use of military force, (p3)'
Furthermore, his chapter 3 is entitled 'Toward the New Rome.' He emphasizes that America is 'not an empire of colonies but an empire of bases' (p23)", but that we are still 'the second coming of the Roman Empire' (p284)" p 3 "God and Empire", J. D. Crossan.
As far as the world court being a farce I would suggest that nothing could be further from the truth. The real issue is if the US wants to commit war crimes it thinks it can get away with it. Witness Guantanamo Bay. To say it is a process to be worked out is purely a self defense statement. The international community calls it illegal. That sounds a lot like 'empire' to me. We will do what we want regardless of what the world thinks.
Perhaps you are blinded by your own nationalism. Hypocrisy it would seem is OK for the US. The US preaches democracy but runs around helping install and prop up dictators. My own country is not free from hypocrisy. The Canadian government permitted an American psychiatrist to conduct serious and very destructive experiments on people in Montreal during the 1950's. This is what Mengela was doing for Germany. This is OK? No this was and is evil. Soldiers, both Canadian and American exposed, deliberately, as an experiment, to nuclear explosions--evil.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Fundamentalism
posted by jester
The world is not one government, the world does not have a world court, there is no such thing as international law, the ideology is a farce, we have no represntatives to affect the laws internationally, as a result of that no citizen of the US living under US law has a say in the making of international law, and is therefore not bound by laws he cannot change oif they become tyrranical. I will not ever recognize a man made authority that lords over me if I cannot change said law or system. In short, if another nation can rip me away, put me under trial, convict me without do course of the laws that govern me in my homeland, with legal representation than I will not allow that, nor ever recognize that law.
Actually there is such a thing as international law. like most law it has grown up over time as nations work out their differences rather than go to war over things. The US is quite happy to accept international law when it suits over things like trade treaties and international patents and push for enforcement when convenient and decide to ignore them when not.
Treaties work both ways as you say The US, like other soverighn nations has to live in this world, but we are certainly not this world.
Your economy needs the world ever more so as you go in to decline. Perhaps you should worry that the trust and respect built up over the years in multilateral trade agreements and mutually beneficial economics is being poured away by high handed unilateral like it or lump it attitudes. it's sad to see.
posted by ted
gmc
Yes, I am worried about GWB and any successor that might be supported by the Christian right. After all Robertson one called for the assassination of President Chevez of Venezuela. Then one listens to the likes of the late Falwell etc.
There are those who would love to hasten what they believe to be the "last days".
Shalom
Ted
America is a democracy. Leaving conspiracy theories aside I just can't see the US becoming a right wing theocracy unless accidentally brought on by indifference on the part of the electorate and a culture where no one questions authority. Fundamentalists of any kind can never keep power unless outside pressures help keep them there. Usually the rule is so appalling the people get fed up and overturn them.
posted by Ted
I don't have a great deal of time at this moment but will make a few comments. That you dislike Karen Armstrong is certainly based on your biases. Her work is well recognized among scholarly and academic circles. I happen to think Karen is much closer to the truth.
Still haven't got round to looking KA up but my inclination is to agree with jester but for completely different reasons. There are a lot of religious writers who seek somehow prove that monotheistic religion has always been a force for good-the clearly fallacious belief that there can be no morality without religion. It irritates the life out of me because they ignore or dismiss anything that suggests otherwise.
I would point out to both of you that the driving force of the present situation in the middle east and Afghanistan is fundamentalist on both sides that want to fight a good war and call for the destruction of he other side. Economics, religion and warfare. Always a potent brew. Love thy neighbour and forgive those who trespass against you. What happened to that?
The world is not one government, the world does not have a world court, there is no such thing as international law, the ideology is a farce, we have no represntatives to affect the laws internationally, as a result of that no citizen of the US living under US law has a say in the making of international law, and is therefore not bound by laws he cannot change oif they become tyrranical. I will not ever recognize a man made authority that lords over me if I cannot change said law or system. In short, if another nation can rip me away, put me under trial, convict me without do course of the laws that govern me in my homeland, with legal representation than I will not allow that, nor ever recognize that law.
Actually there is such a thing as international law. like most law it has grown up over time as nations work out their differences rather than go to war over things. The US is quite happy to accept international law when it suits over things like trade treaties and international patents and push for enforcement when convenient and decide to ignore them when not.
Treaties work both ways as you say The US, like other soverighn nations has to live in this world, but we are certainly not this world.
Your economy needs the world ever more so as you go in to decline. Perhaps you should worry that the trust and respect built up over the years in multilateral trade agreements and mutually beneficial economics is being poured away by high handed unilateral like it or lump it attitudes. it's sad to see.
posted by ted
gmc
Yes, I am worried about GWB and any successor that might be supported by the Christian right. After all Robertson one called for the assassination of President Chevez of Venezuela. Then one listens to the likes of the late Falwell etc.
There are those who would love to hasten what they believe to be the "last days".
Shalom
Ted
America is a democracy. Leaving conspiracy theories aside I just can't see the US becoming a right wing theocracy unless accidentally brought on by indifference on the part of the electorate and a culture where no one questions authority. Fundamentalists of any kind can never keep power unless outside pressures help keep them there. Usually the rule is so appalling the people get fed up and overturn them.
posted by Ted
I don't have a great deal of time at this moment but will make a few comments. That you dislike Karen Armstrong is certainly based on your biases. Her work is well recognized among scholarly and academic circles. I happen to think Karen is much closer to the truth.
Still haven't got round to looking KA up but my inclination is to agree with jester but for completely different reasons. There are a lot of religious writers who seek somehow prove that monotheistic religion has always been a force for good-the clearly fallacious belief that there can be no morality without religion. It irritates the life out of me because they ignore or dismiss anything that suggests otherwise.
I would point out to both of you that the driving force of the present situation in the middle east and Afghanistan is fundamentalist on both sides that want to fight a good war and call for the destruction of he other side. Economics, religion and warfare. Always a potent brew. Love thy neighbour and forgive those who trespass against you. What happened to that?
Fundamentalism
If you put 100 people in a room and leave them there indefinitely someone in the room will begin building alliances with the others. Soon that individual will be seen by everyone in the room as the most powerful and one possessing more than the others. As a result that person will be accused of all kinds of things by those who are jealous or angry because their attempts to be seen as the most powerful failed. Some of the people in the room will accuse the powerful one of cheating to get the power, others will say there was a conspiracy and there will be those who will constantly predict his downfall¦ some will say he is supported by fringe groups called fundamentalists or some such thing. Those who feel disenfranchised will always find reasons for their predicament that don’t include their lack of ability to lead.
At the same time everyone is complaining, if someone in the room is in need or a conflict breaks out, they will go to the one seen as powerful for help or resolution.
At the same time everyone is complaining, if someone in the room is in need or a conflict breaks out, they will go to the one seen as powerful for help or resolution.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
Fundamentalism
jester:-6
I think that gmc is correct in his assumption that international law is for America a convenience. When it suits it refers to it. When it doesn't suit it denies it. What it says is that America doesn't have to go along with everyone else. It can do as it pleases regardless of others; witness Guantanamo Bay. This prison has been declared illegal by the US supreme court and by many countries around the world. This says that the president can even ignore his own supreme court when it suits his purpose.
If all America is trying to do is to establish democracies than why do the help install and prop up dictators. Democracy is a wonderful word for those who want to misuse the term.
"A first example. 'The Bible is my Road Map,' declares an Internet petition circulated by Robertson, Falwell and LaHaye in opposition to a negotiated solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. 'Peace and peace plans in the Middle East ae a bad thing, in the view of fundamentalist Christians because they delay the count-down to Christ's return' policy toward the Palestinians and Israelis? Is that why it has a map and a road but no progress and no traffic"? p201, "God and Empire", D. Crossan.
In my opinion and obviously those of others these men are jerks but dangerous ones. Perhaps as the Brits would say "nutters".
A close reading of both Micah and Amos will show that when we oppress, ignore, permit poverty to arise, illegally imprison, fail to help those in need, allow injustice to happen ignore the sick and dying anywhere in the world we are committing sin.
The politics of fear is alive and well in the world and is being used as a tool to remove the normal and natural freedoms to which people are entitled. The politics of fear leads to injustice and even murder.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I think that gmc is correct in his assumption that international law is for America a convenience. When it suits it refers to it. When it doesn't suit it denies it. What it says is that America doesn't have to go along with everyone else. It can do as it pleases regardless of others; witness Guantanamo Bay. This prison has been declared illegal by the US supreme court and by many countries around the world. This says that the president can even ignore his own supreme court when it suits his purpose.
If all America is trying to do is to establish democracies than why do the help install and prop up dictators. Democracy is a wonderful word for those who want to misuse the term.
"A first example. 'The Bible is my Road Map,' declares an Internet petition circulated by Robertson, Falwell and LaHaye in opposition to a negotiated solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. 'Peace and peace plans in the Middle East ae a bad thing, in the view of fundamentalist Christians because they delay the count-down to Christ's return' policy toward the Palestinians and Israelis? Is that why it has a map and a road but no progress and no traffic"? p201, "God and Empire", D. Crossan.
In my opinion and obviously those of others these men are jerks but dangerous ones. Perhaps as the Brits would say "nutters".
A close reading of both Micah and Amos will show that when we oppress, ignore, permit poverty to arise, illegally imprison, fail to help those in need, allow injustice to happen ignore the sick and dying anywhere in the world we are committing sin.
The politics of fear is alive and well in the world and is being used as a tool to remove the normal and natural freedoms to which people are entitled. The politics of fear leads to injustice and even murder.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Fundamentalism
jester:-6
I gave the book reference for Falwell. Check it out.
For Micah or Amos you want chapter and verse? They are both short books. Read them. Micah 7 chapters if I remember correctly and Amos 9.
That the US does what it wants is quite clear. The rest of the world matters not unless it is pro US. The international court is composed of independent counsels from a wide variety of countries. It is not and will not be the pawn of any country and that is part of what concerns the US. It does not like being subject to the scrutiny of others. That the US does what it wants is precisely the same as an empire.
The "we come first" attitude is one that is foreign to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. It is foreign to an honest Christian. He always put others first even at his arrest. If fact Jesus himself said that he came to serve. This message is also clear in both Amos and Micah. His message was "for all people."
As for Falwell, I've listened to him. He was dangerous and wrong.
Now don't get me wrong I am not anti-American people. Far from it. There are many delightful and honest Americans as well as those of less virtue. The same here in Canada. American foreign policy is another matter. If America is being called the new Rome than perhaps its should take a look at why. If these people are wrong than the US should help enlighten them and if they are right the US should take a look at itself. Bill Gates suggested as much and was totally ignored.
We live in a world that has become so small that no country can exist in isolation without imperiling the whole world.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I gave the book reference for Falwell. Check it out.
For Micah or Amos you want chapter and verse? They are both short books. Read them. Micah 7 chapters if I remember correctly and Amos 9.
That the US does what it wants is quite clear. The rest of the world matters not unless it is pro US. The international court is composed of independent counsels from a wide variety of countries. It is not and will not be the pawn of any country and that is part of what concerns the US. It does not like being subject to the scrutiny of others. That the US does what it wants is precisely the same as an empire.
The "we come first" attitude is one that is foreign to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. It is foreign to an honest Christian. He always put others first even at his arrest. If fact Jesus himself said that he came to serve. This message is also clear in both Amos and Micah. His message was "for all people."
As for Falwell, I've listened to him. He was dangerous and wrong.
Now don't get me wrong I am not anti-American people. Far from it. There are many delightful and honest Americans as well as those of less virtue. The same here in Canada. American foreign policy is another matter. If America is being called the new Rome than perhaps its should take a look at why. If these people are wrong than the US should help enlighten them and if they are right the US should take a look at itself. Bill Gates suggested as much and was totally ignored.
We live in a world that has become so small that no country can exist in isolation without imperiling the whole world.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Fundamentalism
jester:-6
For now I will respond to your last section. If America can live in isolation than why does it need oil from many countries around the world? Why does it want to buy our water? Why is it in Iraq and not Darful or chasing Mugabe out? Perhaps it is because these countries don't have major oil supplies?
No, the US can't live in isolation that is why they have bases all around the world and are seen by many as a threatening nation.
Shalom
Ted:-6
For now I will respond to your last section. If America can live in isolation than why does it need oil from many countries around the world? Why does it want to buy our water? Why is it in Iraq and not Darful or chasing Mugabe out? Perhaps it is because these countries don't have major oil supplies?
No, the US can't live in isolation that is why they have bases all around the world and are seen by many as a threatening nation.
Shalom
Ted:-6