Work place sexual harassment

minks · Post by **minks** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:00 pm

Ok gang because of all our cultural variances on the board I have to ask for opinions.

What in your country constitutes Sexual Harassment? How is it dealt with?

Here it ranges from off comments or jokes to physical contact. It is an incredibly delicate matter and I want to know from culture to culture how is it viewed. I have to wonder if in some cultures off colored verbal talk is not seen as sexual harassment. Here in Canada Sexual harrassment is a serious offense, and in the same breath it is growing to be a very serious paranoia issue and the person who alleges (spelling sorry) they have been SH'd usually is the winner 99% of th time. Sometimes it is very unjust.

All input would be greatly appreciated.

cars · Post by **cars** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:24 pm

minks wrote: Ok gang because of all our cultural variances on the board I have to ask for opinions.

What in your country constitutes Sexual Harassment? How is it dealt with?

Here it ranges from off comments or jokes to physical contact. It is an incredibly delicate matter and I want to know from culture to culture how is it viewed. I have to wonder if in some cultures off colored verbal talk is not seen as sexual harassment. Here in Canada Sexual harrassment is a serious offense, and in the same breath it is growing to be a very serious paranoia issue and the person who alleges (spelling sorry) they have been SH'd usually is the winner 99% of th time. Sometimes it is very unjust.

All input would be greatly appreciated.

Well in my former workplace in New England, there was a "Zero" tolerance Sexual Harassment policy!

They were very serious about it, up to & including dismissal if charges were found to be ligit! Off colored talk, or inuendos, jokes, and positively no physical contact was tolerated! They went as far as even if the person who was being harrassed did not file charges for what ever reason, (say really not bothered by it that much) but someone close by or even over the wall that was in ear shot & was offended could file charges against the alleged harrasser!

It got to the point where no one would even pay a complement to anyone of the opposite Sex. Of course, Sexual orientation harrassment was not tolerated also.

It is as you mentioned a delicate matter. As far as different culture's they need to adopt the "when-in-Rome-do as the Romans do" attitude if they are going to work where there are SH laws! :guitarist

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:50 pm

My work also had a zero tolerance policy. I thought it was a good idea since most of the employees were kids trying to get into each other's pants. Dating was not allowed either since the kids would sneak off to the storage room for a little :sneaky: . The store did not allow customers to harrass the employees either which was a policy I admired.

john8pies · Post by **john8pies** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:25 pm

what I found particularly disturbing was when I read the company policy on this to be ` if the person who made the complaint feels they were sexually harassed, regardless of whether the accused person intended to harass them or not." Whatever happened to that quaint old maxim of `innocent until proven guilty`?!

minks · Post by **minks** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:38 pm

Good point J8P. We here are crazy strict with this sexual harassment issue, and the dilema is I think the employee doing it, likely is not aware of how strict it is as he comes from another culture. I can't reveal too much due to privacy etc. But I am genuinely concerned for both sides of this.

And Cars and Nvalley you guys are bang on it is zero tolerance here. What happens now is no matter the actions, there is some tension between the 2 co-workers and we are very small. I feel sorry for the woman as this is totally unfair to her as she is the guys boss. The guy however may not have a full understanding of the situation and may go to co-workers for explanations (language barriers a bit too) and it then becomes very public. Oiy times like this where I am glad I am not a boss.

Thanks guys wish us luck here.

Wolverine · Post by **Wolverine** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:43 pm

john8pies wrote: what I found particularly disturbing was when I read the company policy on this to be ` if the person who made the complaint feels they were sexually harassed, regardless of whether the accused person intended to harass them or not." Whatever happened to that quaint old maxim of `innocent until proven guilty`?!
Innocent until proven guilty does not include the workplace.

If someone was "illegally" evesdropping on your conversation and heard something that they found offensive, they can file harrassment charges. Most companies aren't kidding when they say, Zero Tolerance.

Now on a lighter note, I miss the days of my father and Grandad when "harrass" used to be TWO words. :sneaky:

DiamondTiger · Post by **DiamondTiger** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:11 am

Hi, let me start by saying that I joined this forum because I wanted to reply to this thread. I'll post my intro when I'm done here.

I've been a victim of work place sexual harassment, and I will tell you that in my experaince, the harassor has more rights than the vicitm. Not only did this man (who was an assistant manager of the place where I worked) verbally harass me to the point where I quit my job, he also sexually assaulted me physically on more than one occasion. I followed proceedure and was in turn harassed by the manager as well. I watched one girl get fired because she asked for the name and number of the owner of the store, because she too wanted to file a complaint. The man who did this to me was proud that he had done this in the past and gotten away with it. He found it quite humours that a former employee had filed sexual harassment charges against him before and nothing happened to him. He laughed in my face and told me all about it.

I filed complaints with the towns police department against this man for battery. The cops did nothing more than ask him "did you do this?" Of course he said no so they dropped the case. I filed a complaint with the EEOC and to my knowledge the investigator lost my file up until two weeks ago, when I phoned her after waiting more than 6 months to hear about mediation. I was sent a letter in November of last year which offered me mediation with the company that the charge was against, I heard nothing as to whether they accepted or declined the offer. When I phoned the investigator, after she finally found my file while I waited on the phone, she told me that there was nothing that she could do with my complaint. I asked her if she had spoken with my witnesses or read the police reports that I personally delivered to the EEOC LAST YEAR (in which the man states "that sort of thing is common around here"). She hadn't looked at them, in fact she told me that I needed to get them for her. She told me that I would be sent my letter of permission to sue by the end of the week, and I have not received that as of this date.

I was told when I filed the complaint that I would be called in to speak with the investigator of my case. This never happened. In fact, the investigator told me when I last spoke with her that I needed to provide proof and evidence to support my alligation. Yes, innocent until proven guilty, but when you make a report of what truly goes on in a work environment such as the one that I was in... It is the duty of the investigator and the police department to gather that information. There were witnesses and video tapes mentioned in both of my reports which went unchecked. Now it is too late to look at these tapes because they are over written every 30 days (or so this is what I've been told). This man threatened to rape me and they all wanted me to play dectective. Now I'm sitting here broken and he's gotten away with this type of behavior yet another time.

I was stalked by this man and 3 of his friends after I quit that job. They made my life very hard. I MOVED to another town, just so I can go to the grocery store in peace. I can't speak for all when I say this, but I will say that there is something seriously wrong in America when the victim is told by the people and agencies who are there to help end this serious problem... you do the work, but don't harass them. The investigator who was assigned to my case was lazy, she didn't even bother to get the information about the girl who was fired so she could cooborate my complaint, even though I stressed that incident in my initial complaint.

As long as this is the way these complaints are handled by those who are there to protect us, this type of behavior will continue. If you all have any ideas as to how I might find justice for myself and this mans other victims, please speak out. I have racked my brain trying to find ways to get people to listen. This is a problem that gets swept under the rug far to often and it's time to hold the right people accountable.

Sorry for the sermon guys.. this really frustrates me to no end. All I want is for this guy (and others like him) to be held accountable for their actions. I want him fired and I want an apology from the company, and now the EEOC, for allowing this to go on. Most of all, I want to keep him from doing this to anybody else.

minks · Post by **minks** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:21 am

wow welcome and thanks for your input.

Sad story that is Diamond, my heart goes out to you. I suspect Lady Cop may have some input here she is good with advise because of her vast experience.

In this current situation, I do know the president of the company thus far has spoken to the man who has made the off colored comments so we shall see what happens from here. I would like to think due to culture the man was not aware of what he was doing.

DiamondTiger · Post by **DiamondTiger** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:34 am

Hmm... I'm not sure how sexual harassment is defined in Canada. Here though, it is defined as a comment or gesture that any normal person would find offensive. That still leaves the area wide open, because the question then becomes "what is normal"? I myself am very thick skinned when it comes to jokes and just the occasional comment. But what this guy did to me went way beyond anything I'd consider colored humor or what have you. I'll tell you, he rubbed his crotch against mine and told me he was going to "find out what makes me *@#$*" (I'm sure you can fill in the blank) among many other things. I think that there are just some things that, regardless of ones culture, are considered offensive, rude and inapproperiate.

I do hope that the situation you speak of resolves it's self and that everything works out for the best.

mountainwind · Post by **mountainwind** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:02 am

Sexual harrassment in the UK is a serious issue but in many cases is not pursued by the victim.

It could range from off colour remarks to threats about ones job if sexual favours are not given.

In the 'lesser' instances the victim needs to speak up directly to the offender and say don't talk to me in that fashion, don't touch me, don't invade my personal space etc. Many women are not good at this because in a patriarchy they have been brought up to 'cuddle to' and regard such behaviour as harmless. (It certainly isn't and that can include scenarios outside the work place). Girls need to be taught how to fend off this behaviour politely but effectively. They also need to be taught that it isn't harmless fun/banter but the male (could be female) offender is indulging in a basic flirtation/sexual exploration/domination game which could escalate into more serious stuff if it isn't checked early on.

In the serious cases like 'perform or I'll sack you' scenario then the victim needs resort to the law.

For the woman man who cries 'wolf' and there have probably been a few cases then think about how much you undermine what is essentially a good movement just to further your own selfish needs. Because many women walk in constant fear of male sexual domination and shouldn't have to put up with it anywhere much less at work

greydeadhead · Post by **greydeadhead** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:41 am

Ohhhhhh.. now this is a great topic for disucussion.. DT.. sorry to hear that you didn't get the results that you should have.

Everywhere I have worked there is a zero tolerance policy for SH... but having been on the other side of the coin in this I really really have become ultra conservative in saying anything or doing anything that could be even remotely construed as harrassment. I once made the mistake of complimenting a co -worker on her style.. she always dressed for business professionally.. well she took it personally and filed a complaint against me.. needless to say I asked who was accusing me and was told that was confidential.. so.. I had no chance to question what I had done wrong. I was told this was to protect the victim.. okaaaay.. well thru the office grapevine I did find out who had filed against me. Needless to say I gave her a very very wide berth from that point on. Then I had to hire a lawyer to protect myself.. finally I just threw in the towel.. walked in on a Friday .. resigned.. and cleaned out my desk. I could not take the stress.. or the financial burden anymore. Funny part was.. 6 months later I ran into another co-worker and found out that she had worked her way into my job and accused another person of the same thing..

Nowadays I do NOT say anything to anyone about their appearance.. nothing..

But.. now a question..

Why is it that if a woman has a computer wallpaper of say the Chippendale dancers or some other hard body on thier desktop, it is considered okay..

whereas if a man has a wallpaper of a Sports Illustrated swimsuit model it can be consideree harrassment..

minks · Post by **minks** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:44 am

But.. now a question..

Why is it that if a woman has a computer wallpaper of say the Chippendale dancers or some other hard body on thier desktop, it is considered okay..

whereas if a man has a wallpaper of a Sports Illustrated swimsuit model it can be consideree harrassment..

Good question indeed, I wish I had a good answer for you there but don't. I wonder what would happen if a woman had a swim suit woman posted on her computer desk top ahahahaha

jasmund · Post by **jasmund** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:23 pm

When I was 19 I worked for a BIG savings and loan corporation, and one of the bank officers was always saying garbage, like calling my extension as asking me what I had on underneath my clothes, and stuff like that. So when I gave my notice to quit , I supper glued his phone to the receiver and his slippers to the carpet, I bed he knew who did that!!!!!

-Also shortly after I had my son, I worked with a pharmacist who slept with most of his techs, and he kept saying really perverted things, so my husband went up there and thought he set him straight, it only egged this bozo on more, one day I was bent over getting something out of the file cabinet when he actually put his hand between my legs, I turned aroung and punched him square in the face, he yealled and said how would I like to be fired, and I said how would you like to explain the reason behind this incident, I never had a problem with him again.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:15 am

Two stories, same workplace (dispatch office of truck & bus drivers):

When I first came to work there, I found that one of my dispatchers had a SH complaint under ongoing investigation. I felt I should know as much as possible about the situation so I could help the investigator, so I asked around for the various variations of the story. The dispatcher said she was harassed and got quite defensive ... yada yada yada... I eventually realized she was caustic and rude. Drivers retaliated against her by not showing up on time, not answering her calls, or openly defying her. This last she said was because she was a woman and filed a complaint.

Another case was when I sent a new driver out with a veteran to learn to drive a manual transmission bus. The old guy taught her exactly the same way he had taught new drivers for years. "You need to treat her gentle." "Don't ram her in gear or she'll complain." etc. As soon as the lesson was over, the driver went directly to the first female in the chain of command, who happened to be 4 levels above me. ... The next day we had a meeting about why the guy got fired. Turned out that (1) he taught all drivers the same way, (2) the guys couldn't believe he was stupid enough not to have a different technique to teach women, and (3) the other women couldn't believe the new girl thought that old man was actually hitting on her.

Needless to say, my dispatcher was so enraged that the new driver got such quick results, she filed SH charges against me for not taking her complaints seriously.

I find that if the harassed don't tolerate anything that crosses the line, and refuse to speak quietly about it, they tend to get more respect. SH harassment is usually about power, the weak-minded taking advantage of the pecking order because they can.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:33 am

Wow, is it really that bad out there!

Back in the eighties I left school and went to work in the office at a local fish processors, there was one other woman working there and I guess I followed her lead on how to deal with the 'men'. She let me know that they were all harmless apart from one Scottish chap, who I was just warned to stay away from.

Most of them were old enough to be my father and we all got on really well, I just laughed off the wolf whistles whenever I showed up at work and the men decided I looked nice that day, they were having harmless fun, but they were also clever enough to realise who could laugh it off and who would be mortified by this behaviour.

The office staff had to go into the factory to fill the kettle for each coffee break, the only time the Scots man crossed me was when one day he tried lifting my skirt with a hook they used to pull boxes, I swung around and smacked him accross the face, hard, the whole factory fell silent and he was dragged of and given a talking too. I reported the incident to my boss and he was issued with a written warning and he had to give me a written apology.

Another time I remember one of the older men putting his arm round me and saying 'You're lovely, sigh, if I were only thirty years younger, I'd give you a go', he was harmless and in his own way was comforting me on the break up of a relationship, there was no way I'd report him for harrassment!