Proof of God

BHughesNC · Post by **BHughesNC** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:56 pm

This is a pretty simple question for those who do not believe in God. Can you name an event or situation that would prove to you beyond a doubt that God is real?

Bobby

Post by **spot** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:31 pm

Would it help if you describe what the words "God" and "real" mean, since you're posing it as a simple question?

If you do that then the terms of the answers will be identical to the terms of the question. If you leave those two words undefined then any answer will be to a question you didn't ask.

Is there any context for "God" in this thread that excludes Jesus, for example? Are there any valid aspects of God as far as this thread's concerned which aren't encompassed by Christianity?

Does real relate to physical manifestation, or repeatable experimental result, or logical truth?

Victoria · Post by **Victoria** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:10 am

Hi Bobby

I don't know about anyone else but but I believe that believing in God is a matter of faith. Of trust.

The bible tells us not to ask for proof but to have faith.

I think if you truly have faith and believe in God you will find him in your heart and soul, if you don't believe then any event can be explained away.

BTW while I have studied and have been to many 'churches' and explored many faiths, and found some to be very inviting I have no 'faith' or God in my heart and soul and so I can't count myself as a believer.

suzy_creamcheese · Post by **suzy_creamcheese** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:26 am

seeing God and speaking to "him"

Even then it could just mean id gone crazy, but id be more likely to believe that it was a real thing then rather than just a comforting idea

BHughesNC · Post by **BHughesNC** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:52 am

spot;847930 wrote: Would it help if you describe what the words "God" and "real" mean, since you're posing it as a simple question?

If you do that then the terms of the answers will be identical to the terms of the question. If you leave those two words undefined then any answer will be to a question you didn't ask.

Is there any context for "God" in this thread that excludes Jesus, for example? Are there any valid aspects of God as far as this thread's concerned which aren't encompassed by Christianity?

Does real relate to physical manifestation, or repeatable experimental result, or logical truth?

The question is concerning the One God (Father,Son, Holy Spirit) as described in the Christian bible. Does He exist as described?

Hope that frames the question a little better.

Bobby

BHughesNC · Post by **BHughesNC** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:56 am

Victoria;847971 wrote: Hi Bobby

I don't know about anyone else but but I believe that believing in God is a matter of faith. Of trust.

The bible tells us not to ask for proof but to have faith.

I think if you truly have faith and believe in God you will find him in your heart and soul, if you don't believe then any event can be explained away.

BTW while I have studied and have been to many 'churches' and explored many faiths, and found some to be very inviting I have no 'faith' or God in my heart and soul and so I can't count myself as a believer.

Thanks Victoria, I am a believer and I put the question out there as a curiosity about what if anything would change an unbelievers mind.

Bobby

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:15 pm

BHughesNC;848407 wrote: Thanks Victoria, I am a believer and I put the question out there as a curiosity about what if anything would change an unbelievers mind.

Bobby

That is what I don’t get¦ why can’t you be comfortable in your own belief and leave it at that? Why then does there have to be a mission to go get everyone else to believe? I don’t go around trying to convince others of my beliefs and try to get them to change their minds.

I respect your belief the same way I respect Buddhists, Moslems, Jewish, Hindu and so on and so on. So why not just leave me alone to my own beliefs.

Let me be judge by my actions in this world not by the God I choose to or not pray to.

Post by **spot** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:46 pm

BHughesNC;848405 wrote: The question is concerning the One God (Father,Son, Holy Spirit) as described in the Christian bible. Does He exist as described?

Hope that frames the question a little better.

Bobby

It's not the question you started out with, that's for sure.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:33 pm

BH:-6

Any discussions for or against the existence of God are doomed to total failure. The topic is not and cannot be the subject of logical reasoning.

Shalom

Ted:-6

BHughesNC · Post by **BHughesNC** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:31 am

Ted;848756 wrote: BH:-6

Any discussions for or against the existence of God are doomed to total failure. The topic is not and cannot be the subject of logical reasoning.

Shalom

Ted:-6

OK then don't discuss it.

BH

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:13 am

Ted;848756 wrote: BH:-6

Any discussions for or against the existence of God are doomed to total failure. The topic is not and cannot be the subject of logical reasoning.

Shalom

Ted:-6

AHA! you finally admit you are irrational:sneaky:

BHughesNC · Post by **BHughesNC** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:25 am

gmc;849146 wrote: AHA! you finally admit you are irrational:sneaky:

I have no idea what you are talkng about? I did not admit to being irrational. Ted says that discussion of this topic is illogical. Well I certainly would not want him to have to let go of logic.

This is a forum and he is free to discuss a topic or not.

Bobby

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:33 am

BHughesNC;847921 wrote: This is a pretty simple question for those who do not believe in God. Can you name an event or situation that would prove to you beyond a doubt that God is real?

Bobby

Generally, the burden of proof falls to the person making a claim of existence. I'm not sure how you prove the "non-existence" of anything. How would you prove the non-existence of a hammer, for example?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:26 pm

BHughesNC;849165 wrote: I have no idea what you are talkng about? I did not admit to being irrational. Ted says that discussion of this topic is illogical. Well I certainly would not want him to have to let go of logic.

This is a forum and he is free to discuss a topic or not.

Bobby

Actually I was responding to what ted had said. He and I have had discussions in the past about religion. We disagree, but amicably. Hopefully he will appreciate the comment the way it was intended-as a joke.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:00 pm

as a christian person i have faith, i don't need proof so therefore i can't answer your question. :-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:07 pm

gmc:-6

I am chuckling. Nice hit. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:09 pm

BH:-6

I have never admitted to being illogical. The proof of God that would satisfy any logical process is impossible. The reality of God is beyond logic and rationalism.

That in no way implies that I do not accept the reality of God.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:49 pm

yaaarrrgg;849322 wrote: Generally, the burden of proof falls to the person making a claim of existence. I'm not sure how you prove the "non-existence" of anything. How would you prove the non-existence of a hammer, for example?
Bobby didn't ask to prove non-existence, he asked if you can name an event or situation that would prove to you beyond a doubt that God is real.

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:31 pm

Accountable;850077 wrote: Bobby didn't ask to prove non-existence, he asked if you can name an event or situation that would prove to you beyond a doubt that God is real.

Ah, you are right. I read a [not] in there from the context. Since if I could prove God's existence, I would believe that God existed.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:38 pm

It seems to me that the existence of God is a personal issue. One becomes a convinced believer through a personal subjective experience of the divine.

Shalom

Ted:-6

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:03 am

I agree with Ted, that it's subjective ...

There's a difficulty in trying to construct any kind of empirical test of God ... it will really only be testing a particular idea of God.

For example, there were a couple studies a while back that showed praying for another sick person has no effect on their recovery. But that negative result doesn't prove God is not real, since perhaps the God is more of a deist's God, and doesn't interfere with the process he already set in motion. Also, if the results of experiment went the other way, it likewise wouldn't have proven God's existence either... since it's always possible some other unknown mechanism is at play, that mental focus taps into.

IMO there's one entity we call "the Universe," which is a complex, interdependent process. We can slice out a segment of that process, in our mind, and label it "God" ... or we can chose not to do so. Like making a puzzle out of a photograph, there are no objective rules that determine were the cut lines should be, that demarcate our set of concepts (nouns, repeating events, ...). Two people will cut the picture up differently, into different discrete units ... then rearrange those concepts in their thought processes.

More often than not though, I find myself not necessary "agreeing or disagreeing" with someone, but puzzling over why the lines over reality were drawn the way they were.

Not that a different view is necessarily right or wrong; it's usually just from using different concepts as the basic building blocks.

A theist can choose to cut a man-shaped object out of the sky... but asking if it is real ... it depends on your perspective. It's not that it can't be done, but violates a sense of non-arbitrariness in my cutting style.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:28 pm

BHughesNC;847921 wrote: This is a pretty simple question for those who do not believe in God. Can you name an event or situation that would prove to you beyond a doubt that God is real?

Bobby

Speaking as an unbeliever-well agnostic anyway- (which to some of the faithful means I am really an atheist and to atheists means I am really a believer but I worry about neither of them because they are both irrational).

I would have to say no. It's a kind of catch twenty two situation. If I could imagine an event or situation that would prove the existence of god then I must accept that he, she , it exists. If I don't believe then there is nothing that will convince me otherwise just as a true believer can't really conceive of there being no god so there is no event or situation they can think of would convince them god doesn't exist.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:54 pm

jester:-6

I am saying that one comes to accept the reality of God through a subjective experience of the Divine. That is enough proof for the individual. One needs no more. It is often called the experiential reality of God. The idea of concept of God is beyond logic or rationalism every bit as much as our ability to understand the real essence of God. What we see on earth are God's activities. We do not see God.

Shalom

Ted:-6

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu May 01, 2008 2:57 am

Ted;851142 wrote: jester:-6

I am saying that one comes to accept the reality of God through a subjective experience of the Divine. That is enough proof for the individual. One needs no more. It is often called the experiential reality of God. The idea of concept of God is beyond logic or rationalism every bit as much as our ability to understand the real essence of God. What we see on earth are God's activities. We do not see God.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Just out of curiosity why, in your opinion, do so many believers feel the need to force others to share their beliefs? Conversion and control by terror has all to often been the choice of the unco good.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu May 01, 2008 3:15 am

gmc;852519 wrote: Just out of curiosity why, in your opinion, do so many believers feel the need to force others to share their beliefs? Conversion and control by terror has all to often been the choice of the unco good.
I don't know unco good, but the most 'activist' types see a dictate in the Bible. Paraphrased "Go out all over the world and spread the good news."

Add one part belief that if you're not Christian (especially a particular brand of Christian) you go to Hell

Combine both ingredients in one head. Shake well. Bake in fire & brimstone at 1400 degrees until a golden crust forms.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu May 01, 2008 4:21 am

Accountable;852525 wrote: I don't know unco good, but the most 'activist' types see a dictate in the Bible. Paraphrased "Go out all over the world and spread the good news."

Add one part belief that if you're not Christian (especially a particular brand of Christian) you go to Hell

Combine both ingredients in one head. Shake well. Bake in fire & brimstone at 1400 degrees until a golden crust forms.

sorry, unco guid-old scots term for the self righteous.

So you men they're all full of half baked ideas?:sneaky:

Redtail · Post by **Redtail** » Thu May 01, 2008 4:46 am

I've had so many God moments in my life, there's no doubt in my mind there is one. Call it God or a Higher Power, how could I possibly believe the things on this earth and beyond were not made by a power greater than myself? I don't believe in coincidences........it's a cop out word for God's actions. Having seen life unfold from in a matter of minutes or days or years the way they have, beyond anything I could have ever dreamed, I have no doubt there is a God who is so much wiser and sees the way so much clearer than I. My spiritual experiences I've had, alone, with just me and God present, are all the proof I need to have faith and trust in God. Faith without works is dead.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu May 01, 2008 10:43 am

gmc:-6

Some do take seriously the commandment attributed to Jesus to go into all the world and spread the good news. They seem to think that the only way to do that is cajole and threaten. On the other hand I believe that actions speak louder than words. If one is living the Christian life as Jesus taught then words are not necessary. Others will see that you have something to offer and ask about it. I've had it happen.

I think there is a second reason called insecurity. They hope that by making more noise and putting several notches in their "gun handle" that they will impress God and at the same time cover up their own insecurity. They are in fact trying to convince themselves. I believe it is called a lack of trust (faith) in God.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu May 01, 2008 5:57 pm

Redtail;852617 wrote: I've had so many God moments in my life, there's no doubt in my mind there is one. Call it God or a Higher Power, how could I possibly believe the things on this earth and beyond were not made by a power greater than myself? I don't believe in coincidences........it's a cop out word for God's actions. Having seen life unfold from in a matter of minutes or days or years the way they have, beyond anything I could have ever dreamed, I have no doubt there is a God who is so much wiser and sees the way so much clearer than I. My spiritual experiences I've had, alone, with just me and God present, are all the proof I need to have faith and trust in God. Faith without works is dead.
If coincidence is never coincidental but always the hand of God, then free will is a lie. Of the two, I choose to believe in free will. With free will as a variable, the only way God can place someone into our lives is if we pray to be led thataway or if the someone does.

Okay I reread what I rewrote, and I'm redissatisfied with it. I hope you get the gist, though.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu May 01, 2008 5:59 pm

Jester;853455 wrote: Why do we share or why do we force it?

Forcing it does no good at all and shoudlnt be done in any way shape or form. But to share something which has been very good to me is a natural outlet of excitement and mostly its due to love.
Yup. People expect it when it comes to a really great product, such as a car, but suspect it when it comes to spiritual issues.

Redtail · Post by **Redtail** » Fri May 02, 2008 4:38 am

Accountable;853684 wrote: If coincidence is never coincidental but always the hand of God, then free will is a lie. Of the two, I choose to believe in free will. With free will as a variable, the only way God can place someone into our lives is if we pray to be led thataway or if the someone does.

Okay I reread what I rewrote, and I'm redissatisfied with it. I hope you get the gist, though.

I did, and I understand. Very good point. Forgot to give free will credit, thank you for bringing that up. I thank God that I am teachable today.

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Fri May 16, 2008 12:35 am

I can 100% proof existing of God

heres how:

there can be only two ways about existing , one is whole universe has been created by someone (God) or everyhing already exist with no creation

there is no other way else then this two options

take a look at this , if universe was not created by God and if things already exist that means all universe is randomized i mean all elements are roaming in the universe with no control and every single state is being randomly

for example oxygen atoms and hyrogen atoms are roaming in space but some how any two oxygen atoms crushes with one hydrogen atoms it becomes water and this is only random state but in next time same thing is happening but 2 oxygen atoms and one hyrogen atoms dont have to become water they could be water they could be something else or they could be nothing but some how every single try shows us that 2 oxygen atoms and one hydrogen atom makes water

so there is some kind of manupilation i mean there is control its not random state

another sample a baby in his mothers womb when he was a one single cell it becomes billions of cell but somehow some of these cells are being eyes cell and goes there some become brain cells and goes where brain is and some tissues grow more some dont if it was random state it could not even be once this way

so, its abvious that this many (we cant count) states cant be randomly if its not ramdomly , someone is controling and if there manuplater controller that controler or manuplater can be only God

is that clear

please ask me anything about religeon i have answers

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:52 am

cloverleaf;866900 wrote: I can 100% proof existing of God

heres how:

there can be only two ways about existing , one is whole universe has been created by someone (God) or everyhing already exist with no creation

there is no other way else then this two options

take a look at this , if universe was not created by God and if things already exist that means all universe is randomized i mean all elements are roaming in the universe with no control and every single state is being randomly

for example oxygen atoms and hyrogen atoms are roaming in space but some how any two oxygen atoms crushes with one hydrogen atoms it becomes water and this is only random state but in next time same thing is happening but 2 oxygen atoms and one hyrogen atoms dont have to become water they could be water they could be something else or they could be nothing but some how every single try shows us that 2 oxygen atoms and one hydrogen atom makes water

so there is some kind of manupilation i mean there is control its not random state

another sample a baby in his mothers womb when he was a one single cell it becomes billions of cell but somehow some of these cells are being eyes cell and goes there some become brain cells and goes where brain is and some tissues grow more some dont if it was random state it could not even be once this way

so, its abvious that this many (we cant count) states cant be randomly if its not ramdomly , someone is controling and if there manuplater controller that controler or manuplater can be only God

is that clear

please ask me anything about religeon i have answers
OOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo that's pretty weak, as proofs go. Good luck to ya if any of our scientists take your bait.

And welcome! :-6

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Fri May 16, 2008 5:44 pm

First of all, I would like to thank you for your question. These types of questions are the ones that people generally have to try and prove in some way that GOD doesn't or can't exist. I feel sorry for them. To get bogged down in minute details and become confused is what I would consider a point for the devil. Don't let such questions keep you from finding the truth. Now to answer your question...

It is in fact a logic question and an interesting one. How does one tell the passing of time without a pointer such as a watch or sundial or the phases of the sun or moon? We as humans know that a "day" is 24 hours, wherever you are in the world, sun or no sun. We have no way of knowing how much time the 3 days encompassed. In Islam these "days" can actually be defined as phases. As you know a phase can be a long or short time depending on what you are experiencing. For example: We describe the different phases of a day, morning, midday, afternoon and night. These are based on time as well as the position of the sun. In America, Summer nights are shorter than in Winter due to the fact that the sun sets much later. So time, can be subjective. We assume that it was 6 days as we know it, 24 hours each day, but it could have been longer or shorter. Only God knows because HE is the ONE who created time. So the 3 "days" before the creation of our pointers in time, the sun and moon, could have been vastly different that what we know. They could have been longer or shorter. For simplicity's sake, perhaps the Bible decribes this time as "days" to avoid confusion in explaining otherwise.

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Sat May 17, 2008 8:22 pm

cloverleaf;866900 wrote: I can 100% proof existing of God

heres how:

there can be only two ways about existing , one is whole universe has been created by someone (God) or everyhing already exist with no creation

there is no other way else then this two options

take a look at this , if universe was not created by God and if things already exist that means all universe is randomized i mean all elements are roaming in the universe with no control and every single state is being randomly

for example oxygen atoms and hyrogen atoms are roaming in space but some how any two oxygen atoms crushes with one hydrogen atoms it becomes water and this is only random state but in next time same thing is happening but 2 oxygen atoms and one hyrogen atoms dont have to become water they could be water they could be something else or they could be nothing but some how every single try shows us that 2 oxygen atoms and one hydrogen atom makes water

so there is some kind of manupilation i mean there is control its not random state

another sample a baby in his mothers womb when he was a one single cell it becomes billions of cell but somehow some of these cells are being eyes cell and goes there some become brain cells and goes where brain is and some tissues grow more some dont if it was random state it could not even be once this way

so, its abvious that this many (we cant count) states cant be randomly if its not ramdomly , someone is controling and if there manuplater controller that controler or manuplater can be only God

is that clear

please ask me anything about religeon i have answers

Not to belabor the obvious, but what's the origin of God? You are trying to explain complexity by assuming the existence of something even more complex.

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Sat May 17, 2008 11:17 pm

Question : can we proof existing of God ? do we have inofrmations about it ? yes

so there is a God right?

Do we have any information about origin of God ? No we dont have that information but we know God exist for sure so why should you ignore this information?

God is the origin of everything Until we would know origin of origin of God

even if you would know about origin of God next question would be what is the origin of origin of God its endless paradox question chains

we can figure out many thing as much as God let us know not more then that

so we are limited beleive or not

only we dont know about our limits thats why scientists keep working

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Sun May 18, 2008 6:52 am

cloverleaf;868730 wrote: Question : can we proof existing of God ? do we have inofrmations about it ? yes

so there is a God right?

Do we have any information about origin of God ? No we dont have that information but we know God exist for sure so why should you ignore this information?

God is the origin of everything Until we would know origin of origin of God

even if you would know about origin of God next question would be what is the origin of origin of God its endless paradox question chains

we can figure out many thing as much as God let us know not more then that

so we are limited beleive or not

only we dont know about our limits thats why scientists keep working

I agree that this line of reasoning results in an infinite array of Gods creating Gods. At some point, you have to reach a conclusion that complex systems (like a God or a Universe) do not necessarily have to be created by anything intelligent. This however, contradicts the assumption in your previous argument.

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Sun May 18, 2008 8:51 am

There is only two way of existence of universe

•Random, natural unguided forces or processes or

•Designed and created by a designer

but if its random processes that means all elements and matters are roaming randomly in the universe and nothing does not have to be like we know

like when 2 oxygen atom crash with one hydrogen atom does not have to be water even in some certain condutions but it always become water even if it happens once we dont expect it happens all the time or we cant expect that there is some certain system in the universe (positif science starts with beleiving this)

A vivid analogy from Hoyle became a well-known cliché. "Belief in chemical evolution of the first cell from lifeless chemicals is equivalent to believing that a tornado could sweep through a junkyard and form a Boeing 747."

if you think about this example God necessarily exist

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Sun May 18, 2008 9:07 am

Consider this parallel line of reasoning:

There are only two ways of existence of God

•Random, natural unguided forces or processes or

•Designed and created by a designer

Anything capable of intelligently arranging water molecules would necessarily require a mechanism more complex than a water molecule, that would sustain that intelligence.

if you think about this example God's Creator necessarily exist

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Sun May 18, 2008 10:03 am

there is an abvious manipulation in the universe should we accept there is not even if we see it proof it

what about else then water molecule like a complex organism like human

which one is more complex water molecule, human body or its created by a intelligent designer?

i know many philosophers who doubted of existence even thir own existence and they died with that suspicious

what does make you think that God exist? even if God talk to you directly

would you have doubt about what you hear?

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Sun May 18, 2008 10:39 am

cloverleaf;868979 wrote:

what does make you think that God exist? even if God talk to you directly

would you have doubt about what you hear?

Honestly, if I heard voices, my first thought would be schizophrenia.

What's odd though, is that humans feel the need to prove God's existence. For God to do so, it would be trivial. No more difficult that one person proving to another that they exist. In absence of cooperation though, it's impossible.

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Sun May 18, 2008 11:37 am

i dont have to try to proof of existence of God.

for me its so clear

how can you explain it to your self everything that you see if you dont beleive in God or not

what do you think about threatment of hell?

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Sun May 18, 2008 12:18 pm

cloverleaf;869003 wrote: i dont have to try to proof of existence of God.

for me its so clear

how can you explain it to your self everything that you see if you dont beleive in God or not

what do you think about threatment of hell?

Ah, now we are getting to the real reason you believe in God. For you it comes down to fear ... not the "proof" you supplied earlier. As I tried to explain in my previous posts, adding God to the picture raises the same type of questions you are trying to explain. As as explanation it has no value.

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Sun May 18, 2008 1:08 pm

you re not saying anything !

can you tell me what is proof for you

so that lets speak the same language

what kind of proof is acceptable for you?

positive scientific proof?

social scientific proof?

math proof?

logical proof?

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Sun May 18, 2008 2:06 pm

cloverleaf;869047 wrote: you re not saying anything !

can you tell me what is proof for you

so that lets speak the same language

what kind of proof is acceptable for you?

positive scientific proof?

social scientific proof?

math proof?

logical proof?

I always liked the proof in the Old Testament, where God competed with Baal and sent a burning column of fire down. Now that would be impressive.