Italy sets date to pull troops out of Iraq
Speculation over terror fears as 300 to leave in September
John Hooper in Rome
Saturday July 9, 2005
The Guardian
Italy's prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, yesterday confirmed that he would start pulling his country's troops out of Iraq within two months.
Speaking at the G8 Gleneagles summit, Mr Berlusconi said the withdrawal of the first of Italy's 3,000 troops would start in September.
"We will begin withdrawing 300 men in September," he said, adding that the decision would depend on the security situation on the ground.
He said he had discussed the plan with allies and with the Iraqi government. But he added: "We will have to give confirmation" on the decision.
Mr Berlusconi sought to portray the move as a continuation of existing policy, noting that he had already announced plans to start withdrawing troops. In fact, Italy's stance has been unclear since March when Mr Berlusconi gave conflicting signals about his plan.
His foreign minister, Gianfranco Fini, had most recently indicated that there would be no movement until early 2006.
Yesterday's announcement was bound to prompt criticism that Mr Berlusconi was aiming to deter Islamist terrorists from striking at Italy next.
The announcement came amid growing concern in Italy that his government's staunch backing for the policies of the Bush administration had put Rome or Milan next in line for an al-Qaida attack.
Mr Berlusconi warned on Thursday that Italians were "exposed" to terrorist attacks, and yesterday one of his ministers, Roberto Calderoli, said: "It is clear that, after New York, Madrid and London, Italy represents the terrorists' most likely short-term objective."
Mr Berlusconi himself said yesterday that his country was directly in the firing line.
"There is a war on against the west by people who want to show our civilisation is evil," he said. "Even intelligence from other countries shows the three Bs - Bush, Berlusconi and Blair - are consid ered the most exposed to this type of risk."
Mr Calderoli added: "The moment has come to start thinking of our own interests." His remark prompted scornful disavowals from several of Mr Berlusconi's other supporters, one of whom said a withdrawal from Iraq would mean "fleeing in the face of terror".
Two different groups claiming affiliation to al Qaeda have warned of attacks on Italy within the past 24 hours.
One group, calling itself the Organisation of al Qaida-Jihad in the Arabian Peninsula, described Rome as "the capital of infidels" yesterday. Mr Berlusconi's rightwing government, which faces a general election in less than a year, is vulnerable on Iraq.
Despite the fact that public opinion was overwhelmingly against the invasion, Italy today is the third-biggest contributor of troops to the US-led coalition after the US and Britain. Its forces did not help invade Iraq, but were sent in afterwards as part of what Mr Berlusconi and his ministers have always insisted is a peace mission.
Doubts over the government's policies surged into the open in March when an Italian intelligence officer was shot dead by US troops while on a hostage rescue mission.
Shortly afterwards Mr Berlusconi spoke for the first time of a troop withdrawal in the autumn.
Speaking on television, he said: "A progressive reduction of the presence of our soldiers will start from September."
However, following a telephone call from President Bush Mr Berlusconi changed his stance, saying troop withdrawal was merely "a hope".
Italy's normally cordial relations with the US were again strained last month after an Italian judge ordered the arrest of 13 American agents accused of seizing a terrorist suspect on the streets of Milan and flying him out of the country.
The government has said it was not warned of the operation.
The Italian authorities were quick to react to Thursday's bombings in London.
Extra plainclothes police were deployed to guard public transport, security was tightened at airports and more than 13,000 "sensitive sites" were under special guard.
Italy surrenders to terrorists
Italy surrenders to terrorists
They are not surrending to terriost. Come on give me a break. Italy is smart that they are pulling out. Who needs to die for a needless war. The iraq's never asked for our help. Yah, I admit throwing over Sadem was a good idea but that was years ago now. The troops over their are not fighting for our freedom. This was a needless were. Maybe after Iraq is organized maybe the president will like to go over their and be theirs. or maybe he like to make a realestate deal. Who knows.
I am being sarcastic about that.
I am being sarcastic about that.
kmhowe
-
capt_buzzard
- Posts: 5557
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm
Italy surrenders to terrorists
Italy is only doing so at the behest of the EU. Its also time that Southern Ireland stopped the American Air Force refuelling at Shannon Airport.
Italy surrenders to terrorists
So that's good reason. You wants to die for what Nothing. Maybe we should follow their lead
kmhowe
Italy surrenders to terrorists
kmhowe72 wrote: They are not surrending to terriost. Come on give me a break. Italy is smart that they are pulling out. Who needs to die for a needless war. The iraq's never asked for our help. Yah, I admit throwing over Sadem was a good idea but that was years ago now. The troops over their are not fighting for our freedom. This was a needless were. Maybe after Iraq is organized maybe the president will like to go over their and be theirs. or maybe he like to make a realestate deal. Who knows.
I am being sarcastic about that.
What ever the rights or wrongs of the Iraq war, the fact is, we are there and to pull out because of the fear terrorist attack, sends the message that if you attack us, we will give in and once they know that, do you think they will go away, no they won’t, their demands will become more and more extreme, giving in will lead to more attacks.
The way to deal with terrorists is to let them know that we will never give into them and if they attack us, we will hunt them down and destroy them.
I am being sarcastic about that.
What ever the rights or wrongs of the Iraq war, the fact is, we are there and to pull out because of the fear terrorist attack, sends the message that if you attack us, we will give in and once they know that, do you think they will go away, no they won’t, their demands will become more and more extreme, giving in will lead to more attacks.
The way to deal with terrorists is to let them know that we will never give into them and if they attack us, we will hunt them down and destroy them.
Italy surrenders to terrorists
I agree, but don't you think it would be more effective if we actually were able to do that?
I was actually talking about terrorist attacks outside of Iraq.
I say we arm the iraqi people...and pull back. If they really want this freedom they've tasted, they should be willing to fight for it. And we'll just provide air cover.
The problem with that is, would we know who we were arming. Rightly or wrongly we’ve started this mess and we have a duty to the Iraqi people to clear it up. Don’t ask me how, all I know is we can’t just walk away.
I was actually talking about terrorist attacks outside of Iraq.
I say we arm the iraqi people...and pull back. If they really want this freedom they've tasted, they should be willing to fight for it. And we'll just provide air cover.
The problem with that is, would we know who we were arming. Rightly or wrongly we’ve started this mess and we have a duty to the Iraqi people to clear it up. Don’t ask me how, all I know is we can’t just walk away.
Italy surrenders to terrorists
capt_buzzard wrote: Italy is only doing so at the behest of the EU. Its also time that Southern Ireland stopped the American Air Force refuelling at Shannon Airport.That would be nice huh? It would give US the reason to stop all the aid we provide for IRISH PEACE PROCESS CULTURAL AND TRAINING PROGRAM ACT OF 1998.
(Walsh Visa Program)
Just a thought
(Walsh Visa Program)
Just a thought
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Italy surrenders to terrorists
Italy is taking the path that to them is most likely the lesser of 2 evils. I suspect other countries will also.
Italy are pulling out because they think they won’t get hit if they do, which in the short term is probably correct, the terrorists will take this as encouragement to blow up innocent people in other countries in the belief that the alliance will fall apart, if this did happen and we all packed up and went home, how long do you think it would be until they started bombing us again for what ever fanatical reason. We will never beat terrorist if we allow them to split us apart.
They have attacked us and what have we done? Attacked Afghanistan and Iraq and in doing so have GIVEN Osama Bin Forgotten exactly what he wants on a golden platter complete with a garnish.
You’re right, in that the 9/11 attack was before the Iraq and Afghanistan war, this shows that the recent attack on London has very little to do with the Iraq and more to do with the fanatics hatred of infidels.
Everything Osama has said about us, the statement that we want to force our ways on Muslims and take the resources of the mideast has been made legitimate. The fact in their eyes that we are perverts was nailed by the Abu Ghraib scandle, Al Quaida could not have begged for a better recruiting poster.
Agreed.
The inability of our leaders to make hard decisions and bring these wars in the mideast to an end quickly and decisively betrays our weakness.
I’d say it shows our strength and moral superiority as the alliance has the ability to bring the war to a very quick end if we were to lower ourselves to the level of the terrorists.
The army we are using was designed to fight on the battlefields of Europe not an occupation and an insurgency. We cannot hunt them down and destroy them because we do not have the means to.
There are many dead terrorists that would disagree with you. (If they could speak)
Our allies are corrupt, the Saudis buy weapons from corrupt Ukrainian officials and give them to the insurgents. They are smuggled through Turkey, Syria and Iran.
Have you alerted the authorities.
The "government" we are trying to set up in Iraq is a joke. Ahmed Chalabi, a man that fled trial in Jordan after rifling millions in scams is the freaking OIL MINISTER!!!
That’s democracy for ya.
The officials there all have their own private mafias running around trying to knock each other off killing innocent people while American troops are told not to get involved.
One job at a time.
The Muslims have us on the ropes, we cannot strike back because we will not change, these people reside in Europe and America, we're "civilized" and will not allow ourselves to take the corrective action necessary.
WTF, the overwhelming majority of muslims are civilised.
Are you saying we should become uncivilised in order to strike back?
They know we do not have the stomach for this. They know that time is on their side, they know they are costing us billions of dollars with little effort at all.
If we walk away from this, you better get yourself a copy of the Koran.
I say get out of the mideast, cut the welfare to Israel. If she can't stand on her own tough, they screw us over regularly anyway.
There’s another thread.
Our strategy now leaves us vulnerable, something has to change.
We could all convert to Islam.
Italy are pulling out because they think they won’t get hit if they do, which in the short term is probably correct, the terrorists will take this as encouragement to blow up innocent people in other countries in the belief that the alliance will fall apart, if this did happen and we all packed up and went home, how long do you think it would be until they started bombing us again for what ever fanatical reason. We will never beat terrorist if we allow them to split us apart.
They have attacked us and what have we done? Attacked Afghanistan and Iraq and in doing so have GIVEN Osama Bin Forgotten exactly what he wants on a golden platter complete with a garnish.
You’re right, in that the 9/11 attack was before the Iraq and Afghanistan war, this shows that the recent attack on London has very little to do with the Iraq and more to do with the fanatics hatred of infidels.
Everything Osama has said about us, the statement that we want to force our ways on Muslims and take the resources of the mideast has been made legitimate. The fact in their eyes that we are perverts was nailed by the Abu Ghraib scandle, Al Quaida could not have begged for a better recruiting poster.
Agreed.
The inability of our leaders to make hard decisions and bring these wars in the mideast to an end quickly and decisively betrays our weakness.
I’d say it shows our strength and moral superiority as the alliance has the ability to bring the war to a very quick end if we were to lower ourselves to the level of the terrorists.
The army we are using was designed to fight on the battlefields of Europe not an occupation and an insurgency. We cannot hunt them down and destroy them because we do not have the means to.
There are many dead terrorists that would disagree with you. (If they could speak)
Our allies are corrupt, the Saudis buy weapons from corrupt Ukrainian officials and give them to the insurgents. They are smuggled through Turkey, Syria and Iran.
Have you alerted the authorities.
The "government" we are trying to set up in Iraq is a joke. Ahmed Chalabi, a man that fled trial in Jordan after rifling millions in scams is the freaking OIL MINISTER!!!
That’s democracy for ya.
The officials there all have their own private mafias running around trying to knock each other off killing innocent people while American troops are told not to get involved.
One job at a time.
The Muslims have us on the ropes, we cannot strike back because we will not change, these people reside in Europe and America, we're "civilized" and will not allow ourselves to take the corrective action necessary.
WTF, the overwhelming majority of muslims are civilised.
Are you saying we should become uncivilised in order to strike back?
They know we do not have the stomach for this. They know that time is on their side, they know they are costing us billions of dollars with little effort at all.
If we walk away from this, you better get yourself a copy of the Koran.
I say get out of the mideast, cut the welfare to Israel. If she can't stand on her own tough, they screw us over regularly anyway.
There’s another thread.
Our strategy now leaves us vulnerable, something has to change.
We could all convert to Islam.
Italy surrenders to terrorists
Your right no matter what we cannot give into terriost. But the Iraq war is not or as anything to do with teriosrizem. It has to do w/ our dictator :-5
kmhowe
Italy surrenders to terrorists
Iraq may not have had anything to do with terrorism at the beginning but it sure as hell does now.
Italy surrenders to terrorists
Yah what. what in hell does Iraq have to do with teroism?????? :-5
Their dictator was removed. And now what are we dying for, for another nation to be free. Are armed services were created not asa missionaries to rescue othere countries but to protect our home her. Our democracy. The last time I checked I did not see anything in our constition that said we are responsible for othere countries. North Korea Now that's a threat.
Their dictator was removed. And now what are we dying for, for another nation to be free. Are armed services were created not asa missionaries to rescue othere countries but to protect our home her. Our democracy. The last time I checked I did not see anything in our constition that said we are responsible for othere countries. North Korea Now that's a threat.
kmhowe
Italy surrenders to terrorists
kmhowe72 wrote: North Korea Now that's a threat.
So attack N Korea? Right......... I kan hear it all now....
So attack N Korea? Right......... I kan hear it all now....
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Italy surrenders to terrorists
NO! You fool. We don't do anything that stupid . By point is are energy is better focused on this country, and threats to this country.
kmhowe
-
Adam Zapple
- Posts: 977
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:13 am
Italy surrenders to terrorists
It has provided Al Qaida with the manpower to threaten Europe where 3 years ago they could not fight in the mideast and europe
Nairobi? Kenya? Tanzania? Planned explosion of 12 Pacific airliners before dummy blew himself up in Manila? Khobar Towers Dhahran, Saudia Arabia? Foiled plot to blow up LA International? Attack on USS Cole off the coast of Yemen? Attempted assassination of Hosni Mubarak in Ethiopia (after which Sudan offered bin Laden to Clinton on a platter and he turned it down because there was no "controlling legal authority" to hold him - so much for handling terrorism with routine law enforcement)? The World Trade Center (twice) and the Pentagon?
They had plenty of manpower and resources before the Iraq War. They are now decentralized, scattered, and in deep hiding (though still effective on occassion).
Nairobi? Kenya? Tanzania? Planned explosion of 12 Pacific airliners before dummy blew himself up in Manila? Khobar Towers Dhahran, Saudia Arabia? Foiled plot to blow up LA International? Attack on USS Cole off the coast of Yemen? Attempted assassination of Hosni Mubarak in Ethiopia (after which Sudan offered bin Laden to Clinton on a platter and he turned it down because there was no "controlling legal authority" to hold him - so much for handling terrorism with routine law enforcement)? The World Trade Center (twice) and the Pentagon?
They had plenty of manpower and resources before the Iraq War. They are now decentralized, scattered, and in deep hiding (though still effective on occassion).
Italy surrenders to terrorists
posted by BTS
That would be nice huh? It would give US the reason to stop all the aid we provide for IRISH PEACE PROCESS CULTURAL AND TRAINING PROGRAM ACT OF 1998.
(Walsh Visa Program)
Just a thought
Another thought for you
http://members.lycos.co.uk/inac/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1562217.stm
Mr Hunter said that although the US was "overwhelmingly preoccupied with Islamic fundamentalism" at the moment, there were signs that "questions were being asked" about whether it had shown a contradictory attitude to terrorism in the past.
Italy also has had to deal with terrorism in the past. Before you start lecturing other countries about terrorism maybe you should bear in mind that many european countries have suffered terrorist attacks for years of one kind ot another. The italians had one former prime minister murdered by terrorists, the IRA tried to kill one of ours and did kill a secreatary of state not to mention many an innocent in both britain and ireland.
To suggest that the italians, spanish or anyone else gives in to terrorists is insullting and shows a great deal of ignorance.
That would be nice huh? It would give US the reason to stop all the aid we provide for IRISH PEACE PROCESS CULTURAL AND TRAINING PROGRAM ACT OF 1998.
(Walsh Visa Program)
Just a thought
Another thought for you
http://members.lycos.co.uk/inac/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1562217.stm
Mr Hunter said that although the US was "overwhelmingly preoccupied with Islamic fundamentalism" at the moment, there were signs that "questions were being asked" about whether it had shown a contradictory attitude to terrorism in the past.
Italy also has had to deal with terrorism in the past. Before you start lecturing other countries about terrorism maybe you should bear in mind that many european countries have suffered terrorist attacks for years of one kind ot another. The italians had one former prime minister murdered by terrorists, the IRA tried to kill one of ours and did kill a secreatary of state not to mention many an innocent in both britain and ireland.
To suggest that the italians, spanish or anyone else gives in to terrorists is insullting and shows a great deal of ignorance.
Italy surrenders to terrorists
gmc wrote: posted by BTS
To suggest that the italians, spanish or anyone else gives in to terrorists is insullting and shows a great deal of ignorance.
What is this ignorance you speak of?
As a direct result of the Spanish attack, al Qaeda brought about a change of government in Spain and subsequently the withdrawal of troops from Iraq.
Italy announce there pulling there troops out, Roberto Calderoli, said: "It is clear that, after New York, Madrid and London, Italy represents the terrorists' most likely short-term objective."
I’m not trying to grab the moral high ground for Britain here we’ve also managed to score an own goal today.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 83,00.html
Although these plans were drawn up before the London bombing, al Qaeda will use this as propaganda material.
To suggest that the italians, spanish or anyone else gives in to terrorists is insullting and shows a great deal of ignorance.
What is this ignorance you speak of?
As a direct result of the Spanish attack, al Qaeda brought about a change of government in Spain and subsequently the withdrawal of troops from Iraq.
Italy announce there pulling there troops out, Roberto Calderoli, said: "It is clear that, after New York, Madrid and London, Italy represents the terrorists' most likely short-term objective."
I’m not trying to grab the moral high ground for Britain here we’ve also managed to score an own goal today.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 83,00.html
Although these plans were drawn up before the London bombing, al Qaeda will use this as propaganda material.
Italy surrenders to terrorists
posted by TMC
What is this ignorance you speak of?
As a direct result of the Spanish attack, al Qaeda brought about a change of government in Spain and subsequently the withdrawal of troops from Iraq.
The Spanish givernment went in to Iraq in the fac of mass demonstrations by the spoanish people. At the next election just after the madrid attack they made their annotance at being ignored felt by kicking out the incumbent. As to the ignorance don't tell me you are ignirant of the years of attacks by ETA in spain?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3500728.stm
Maybe under Franco there was some cause but not now.
TB did the same and at the last election 64% of those voting voted against him. It is only the vagaries of our electoral system and the cpmplete emasculation of the Tories under Thatcher that he got back in. Only a convinced new labourite could convince themselves TB has anything like popular support. Grass roots Labour support are leaving in droves, most only voted for TB to keep out the tories, some of the unions are now talking about ending their levy of members and the much anticipated funding from business has not materialised. The labour party is going to lose and lose badly and like the tories will take years to recover.
Very few in the UK fell for the terrorist connection with Iraq since it was so patently ridiculous. Many who trusted TB when he said there were WMD's now feel betrayed by the constant spin and the flat out pretence that intelligence was not altered to make the case.
As to leaked documents-so much for national security if the cabinet cannt keep confidential documents confidential what chance is there of kepping out terrorists.
The best propoganda material al Queda had was the invasion of Iraq. You don't fight terrorists with conventional armies nor by invading a country that had no connection to them. It was all about oil and the invasion just confirms the double standards.
Today in srebrenitsa they commemorate the massacre of 10,000 muslims at the hands of christian serbs-good propoganda material if you put the right spin on it. Ethnic cleansing and europe sat back and did nothing.
It's the sheer hypocrisy and inconsistency of western policy in the middle east that caused the problem. Terrorists were and always will be a small minority of violent nutters unless things are done to gain them mass support then they become really dangerous.
What is this ignorance you speak of?
As a direct result of the Spanish attack, al Qaeda brought about a change of government in Spain and subsequently the withdrawal of troops from Iraq.
The Spanish givernment went in to Iraq in the fac of mass demonstrations by the spoanish people. At the next election just after the madrid attack they made their annotance at being ignored felt by kicking out the incumbent. As to the ignorance don't tell me you are ignirant of the years of attacks by ETA in spain?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3500728.stm
Maybe under Franco there was some cause but not now.
TB did the same and at the last election 64% of those voting voted against him. It is only the vagaries of our electoral system and the cpmplete emasculation of the Tories under Thatcher that he got back in. Only a convinced new labourite could convince themselves TB has anything like popular support. Grass roots Labour support are leaving in droves, most only voted for TB to keep out the tories, some of the unions are now talking about ending their levy of members and the much anticipated funding from business has not materialised. The labour party is going to lose and lose badly and like the tories will take years to recover.
Very few in the UK fell for the terrorist connection with Iraq since it was so patently ridiculous. Many who trusted TB when he said there were WMD's now feel betrayed by the constant spin and the flat out pretence that intelligence was not altered to make the case.
As to leaked documents-so much for national security if the cabinet cannt keep confidential documents confidential what chance is there of kepping out terrorists.
The best propoganda material al Queda had was the invasion of Iraq. You don't fight terrorists with conventional armies nor by invading a country that had no connection to them. It was all about oil and the invasion just confirms the double standards.
Today in srebrenitsa they commemorate the massacre of 10,000 muslims at the hands of christian serbs-good propoganda material if you put the right spin on it. Ethnic cleansing and europe sat back and did nothing.
It's the sheer hypocrisy and inconsistency of western policy in the middle east that caused the problem. Terrorists were and always will be a small minority of violent nutters unless things are done to gain them mass support then they become really dangerous.
Italy surrenders to terrorists
kmhowe72 wrote: North Korea Now that's a threat.
No kidding, Kim. Have you seen their armed forces, they jack-step just like Nazis! Kim Il Sung is Adolf Hitler reincarnated and with nuclear weapons.
No kidding, Kim. Have you seen their armed forces, they jack-step just like Nazis! Kim Il Sung is Adolf Hitler reincarnated and with nuclear weapons.
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
Italy surrenders to terrorists
gmc wrote: posted by BTS
Another thought for you
http://members.lycos.co.uk/inac/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1562217.stm
gmc........ what does this rubish you link to have to do with this (which I was refering to):?
http://www.usaid.gov/policy/budget/cbj2005/ee/ie.html
I fail to see the connection.
Another thought for you
http://members.lycos.co.uk/inac/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1562217.stm
gmc........ what does this rubish you link to have to do with this (which I was refering to):?
http://www.usaid.gov/policy/budget/cbj2005/ee/ie.html
I fail to see the connection.
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Italy surrenders to terrorists
gmc wrote:
The Spanish givernment went in to Iraq in the fac of mass demonstrations by the spoanish people. At the next election just after the madrid attack they made their annotance at being ignored felt by kicking out the incumbent. As to the ignorance don't tell me you are ignirant of the years of attacks by ETA in spain?gmc........ weird that the polls were flopped in the last week before elections huh? (Just after the attack) Do you think that was a result of the bombing? Or do you think it was over Iraq?
Just wondering as I could not get the answers in your prior posts........
The Spanish givernment went in to Iraq in the fac of mass demonstrations by the spoanish people. At the next election just after the madrid attack they made their annotance at being ignored felt by kicking out the incumbent. As to the ignorance don't tell me you are ignirant of the years of attacks by ETA in spain?gmc........ weird that the polls were flopped in the last week before elections huh? (Just after the attack) Do you think that was a result of the bombing? Or do you think it was over Iraq?
Just wondering as I could not get the answers in your prior posts........
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Italy surrenders to terrorists
The Spanish givernment went in to Iraq in the fac of mass demonstrations by the spoanish people. At the next election just after the madrid attack they made their annotance at being ignored felt by kicking out the incumbent.
The day before the attack, the government had a clear lead in the polls, it was the terrorist attack that brought about the change of government which has given encouragement tor al Qaeda to continue their terrorist campaign..
As to the ignorance don't tell me you are ignirant of the years of attacks by ETA in spain?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3500728.stm
Maybe under Franco there was some cause but not now.
TB did the same and at the last election 64% of those voting voted against him. It is only the vagaries of our electoral system and the cpmplete emasculation of the Tories under Thatcher that he got back in. Only a convinced new labourite could convince themselves TB has anything like popular support.
Everyone knows how our electoral system works, 39% of the electorate didn’t bother to turn out, it’ a reasonable to conclude that the majority of the 39% understood that New Labour were ahead in the polls and were either ambivalent or happy for New labour to be re-elected
Grass roots Labour support are leaving in droves, most only voted for TB to keep out the tories,
Good, there outdated views aren’t wanted
some of the unions are now talking about ending their levy of members
There just upset that they haven’t been invited to No.10 for beer and sandwiches. Union funding to the labour party has been falling for the last 20 years in line with there own decline, imo the more distance New Labour can put between themselves and the unions the better.
and the much anticipated funding from business has not materialised.
I couldn’t find any figures but I did find thie: in the year to June 2003 New Labour received more than four times as much money from company’s and wealthy individuals than the Conservative Party,
The labour party is going to lose and lose badly and like the tories will take years to recover
If that were true, which I doubt, I wouldn’t have to much of a problem with it as Tony Blair has not only succeeded in turning the Labour party into a centre/right party, he has indirectly done the same to the Conservative party.
Very few in the UK fell for the terrorist connection with Iraq since it was so patently ridiculous. Many who trusted TB when he said there were WMD's now feel betrayed by the constant spin and the flat out pretence that intelligence was not altered to make the case.
And these are the same people that said, that the government were over hyping the threat of a terrorist attack.
As to leaked documents-so much for national security if the cabinet cannt keep confidential documents confidential what chance is there of kepping out terrorists.
The government are always leaking documents, they use it as a tool to gauge public opinion.
The best propoganda material al Queda had was the invasion of Iraq. You don't fight terrorists with conventional armies nor by invading a country that had no connection to them. It was all about oil and the invasion just confirms the double standards.
With hindsight a fear you are right. What I don’t understand is, if Saddam didn’t have WMDs why didn’t he offer unlimited access to the weapons inspectors in the period leading up to the war.
Today in srebrenitsa they commemorate the massacre of 10,000 muslims at the hands of christian serbs-good propoganda material if you put the right spin on it. Ethnic cleansing and europe sat back and did nothing.
We should hang our heads in shame.
It's the sheer hypocrisy and inconsistency of western policy in the middle east that caused the problem. Terrorists were and always will be a small minority of violent nutters unless things are done to gain them mass support then they become really dangerous.
Whatever we do or don’t do, in the eyes of the fanatics we are still infidels.
The day before the attack, the government had a clear lead in the polls, it was the terrorist attack that brought about the change of government which has given encouragement tor al Qaeda to continue their terrorist campaign..
As to the ignorance don't tell me you are ignirant of the years of attacks by ETA in spain?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3500728.stm
Maybe under Franco there was some cause but not now.
TB did the same and at the last election 64% of those voting voted against him. It is only the vagaries of our electoral system and the cpmplete emasculation of the Tories under Thatcher that he got back in. Only a convinced new labourite could convince themselves TB has anything like popular support.
Everyone knows how our electoral system works, 39% of the electorate didn’t bother to turn out, it’ a reasonable to conclude that the majority of the 39% understood that New Labour were ahead in the polls and were either ambivalent or happy for New labour to be re-elected
Grass roots Labour support are leaving in droves, most only voted for TB to keep out the tories,
Good, there outdated views aren’t wanted
some of the unions are now talking about ending their levy of members
There just upset that they haven’t been invited to No.10 for beer and sandwiches. Union funding to the labour party has been falling for the last 20 years in line with there own decline, imo the more distance New Labour can put between themselves and the unions the better.
and the much anticipated funding from business has not materialised.
I couldn’t find any figures but I did find thie: in the year to June 2003 New Labour received more than four times as much money from company’s and wealthy individuals than the Conservative Party,
The labour party is going to lose and lose badly and like the tories will take years to recover
If that were true, which I doubt, I wouldn’t have to much of a problem with it as Tony Blair has not only succeeded in turning the Labour party into a centre/right party, he has indirectly done the same to the Conservative party.
Very few in the UK fell for the terrorist connection with Iraq since it was so patently ridiculous. Many who trusted TB when he said there were WMD's now feel betrayed by the constant spin and the flat out pretence that intelligence was not altered to make the case.
And these are the same people that said, that the government were over hyping the threat of a terrorist attack.
As to leaked documents-so much for national security if the cabinet cannt keep confidential documents confidential what chance is there of kepping out terrorists.
The government are always leaking documents, they use it as a tool to gauge public opinion.
The best propoganda material al Queda had was the invasion of Iraq. You don't fight terrorists with conventional armies nor by invading a country that had no connection to them. It was all about oil and the invasion just confirms the double standards.
With hindsight a fear you are right. What I don’t understand is, if Saddam didn’t have WMDs why didn’t he offer unlimited access to the weapons inspectors in the period leading up to the war.
Today in srebrenitsa they commemorate the massacre of 10,000 muslims at the hands of christian serbs-good propoganda material if you put the right spin on it. Ethnic cleansing and europe sat back and did nothing.
We should hang our heads in shame.
It's the sheer hypocrisy and inconsistency of western policy in the middle east that caused the problem. Terrorists were and always will be a small minority of violent nutters unless things are done to gain them mass support then they become really dangerous.
Whatever we do or don’t do, in the eyes of the fanatics we are still infidels.
Italy surrenders to terrorists
posted by BTS
gmc........ weird that the polls were flopped in the last week before elections huh? (Just after the attack) Do you think that was a result of the bombing? Or do you think it was over Iraq?
Just wondering as I could not get the answers in your prior posts........
I think they just resented Iraq. The spanish people are all too well aware of the nature of terrorism. You didn't see them demonising all basgues because of ETA just as the british people didn't demonise all Irish because of the IRA. Invading a country to fight small terrorist groups is a basically ludicrous idea.
posted by BTS
gmc........ what does this rubish you link to have to do with this (which I was refering to):?
http://www.usaid.gov/policy/budget/cbj2005/ee/ie.html
I fail to see the connection.
You seemed to imply that if the eire govt stopped fuelling US planes that the US should retaliate by stopping aid to Northrn Ireland. Maybe if they had taken steps to stop noraid a bit sooner the peace process in NI might have kicked off sooner with the IRA denied an important part of it's funding. It's rather hyppocritical to complain about countries funding terrorists when a blind eye was turned on Noraid. If you can't see the connection there is little point talking to you. Incidentally Southern Ireland is an independent nation seprate from the North cutting off funding to a NI charity is hardly likely to bother them.
posted by TMC
TB did the same and at the last election 64% of those voting voted against him. It is only the vagaries of our electoral system and the cpmplete emasculation of the Tories under Thatcher that he got back in. Only a convinced new labourite could convince themselves TB has anything like popular support.
Everyone knows how our electoral system works, 39% of the electorate didn’t bother to turn out, it’ a reasonable to conclude that the majority of the 39% understood that New Labour were ahead in the polls and were either ambivalent or happy for New labour to be re-elected
it’ a reasonable to conclude that the majority of the 39% understood that New Labour were ahead in the polls and were either ambivalent or happy for New labour to be re-elected [
Non Sequitur: It's only a reasonable concluscion if that's what you choose to believe. Many don't bother voting because it seems to make little difference what the majority think we get stuck with new labour just as we got stuck with Maggie Thatcher. Those who oppose change do so because they realise that it means neither labour or tories would have a clear majority. The tories keep quiet about it because it benefits them as they also gerrymander at the first opportunity. Effectively large numbers of voters are disenfranchised. The cause for concern should be that so many think it pointless, that is not the same as apathy.
Perhaps more to the point, we do not have a presidential system of government, having a TB that governs with his own coterie of people is bad bad bad,. Alistair Campbell was elected by no one, represents no one yet seemed to have real power. What I find appalling about new labour is all the MP's clinging to power like a bunch of sheep to scared to express an opinion.
I am some what ambivalent about George Galloway but he does have some good one liners. "I saw a shiver run along the labour bemches looking for a backbone to run along"
posted by TMC
Very few in the UK fell for the terrorist connection with Iraq since it was so patently ridiculous. Many who trusted TB when he said there were WMD's now feel betrayed by the constant spin and the flat out pretence that intelligence was not altered to make the case.
And these are the same people that said, that the government were over hyping the threat of a terrorist attack.
Are they? Read the 911 report they also come to the concluscion that there was no connection to 911 with Iraq. Thanks to the action of US and UK govts the threat is higher now than ever before. Terrorist attacks are all too real in the Uk and have been for years.
Terrorists operate in small groups, there never was a mass movement that could be targeted by massed armed forces. ID cards and all that crap will do nothing to stop terrorism. If we change our way of life then the terrorists have won. Our history is a long one of curbing the power of the authorities.
Grass roots Labour support are leaving in droves, most only voted for TB to keep out the tories,
Good, there outdated views aren’t wanted
What outdated views do you think they represent that aren't now wanted?
gmc........ weird that the polls were flopped in the last week before elections huh? (Just after the attack) Do you think that was a result of the bombing? Or do you think it was over Iraq?
Just wondering as I could not get the answers in your prior posts........
I think they just resented Iraq. The spanish people are all too well aware of the nature of terrorism. You didn't see them demonising all basgues because of ETA just as the british people didn't demonise all Irish because of the IRA. Invading a country to fight small terrorist groups is a basically ludicrous idea.
posted by BTS
gmc........ what does this rubish you link to have to do with this (which I was refering to):?
http://www.usaid.gov/policy/budget/cbj2005/ee/ie.html
I fail to see the connection.
You seemed to imply that if the eire govt stopped fuelling US planes that the US should retaliate by stopping aid to Northrn Ireland. Maybe if they had taken steps to stop noraid a bit sooner the peace process in NI might have kicked off sooner with the IRA denied an important part of it's funding. It's rather hyppocritical to complain about countries funding terrorists when a blind eye was turned on Noraid. If you can't see the connection there is little point talking to you. Incidentally Southern Ireland is an independent nation seprate from the North cutting off funding to a NI charity is hardly likely to bother them.
posted by TMC
TB did the same and at the last election 64% of those voting voted against him. It is only the vagaries of our electoral system and the cpmplete emasculation of the Tories under Thatcher that he got back in. Only a convinced new labourite could convince themselves TB has anything like popular support.
Everyone knows how our electoral system works, 39% of the electorate didn’t bother to turn out, it’ a reasonable to conclude that the majority of the 39% understood that New Labour were ahead in the polls and were either ambivalent or happy for New labour to be re-elected
it’ a reasonable to conclude that the majority of the 39% understood that New Labour were ahead in the polls and were either ambivalent or happy for New labour to be re-elected [
Non Sequitur: It's only a reasonable concluscion if that's what you choose to believe. Many don't bother voting because it seems to make little difference what the majority think we get stuck with new labour just as we got stuck with Maggie Thatcher. Those who oppose change do so because they realise that it means neither labour or tories would have a clear majority. The tories keep quiet about it because it benefits them as they also gerrymander at the first opportunity. Effectively large numbers of voters are disenfranchised. The cause for concern should be that so many think it pointless, that is not the same as apathy.
Perhaps more to the point, we do not have a presidential system of government, having a TB that governs with his own coterie of people is bad bad bad,. Alistair Campbell was elected by no one, represents no one yet seemed to have real power. What I find appalling about new labour is all the MP's clinging to power like a bunch of sheep to scared to express an opinion.
I am some what ambivalent about George Galloway but he does have some good one liners. "I saw a shiver run along the labour bemches looking for a backbone to run along"
posted by TMC
Very few in the UK fell for the terrorist connection with Iraq since it was so patently ridiculous. Many who trusted TB when he said there were WMD's now feel betrayed by the constant spin and the flat out pretence that intelligence was not altered to make the case.
And these are the same people that said, that the government were over hyping the threat of a terrorist attack.
Are they? Read the 911 report they also come to the concluscion that there was no connection to 911 with Iraq. Thanks to the action of US and UK govts the threat is higher now than ever before. Terrorist attacks are all too real in the Uk and have been for years.
Terrorists operate in small groups, there never was a mass movement that could be targeted by massed armed forces. ID cards and all that crap will do nothing to stop terrorism. If we change our way of life then the terrorists have won. Our history is a long one of curbing the power of the authorities.
Grass roots Labour support are leaving in droves, most only voted for TB to keep out the tories,
Good, there outdated views aren’t wanted
What outdated views do you think they represent that aren't now wanted?
Italy surrenders to terrorists
[
What outdated views do you think they represent that aren't now wanted?
Outdated socialist ideology
What outdated views do you think they represent that aren't now wanted?
Outdated socialist ideology
Italy surrenders to terrorists
posted by tmc
Outdated socialist ideology
Which bit of outdated socialist ideaology. The labour party always was a broad church that rejected revolutionary socialism from the outset. So do most of the grass roots members.
Outdated socialist ideology
Which bit of outdated socialist ideaology. The labour party always was a broad church that rejected revolutionary socialism from the outset. So do most of the grass roots members.
Italy surrenders to terrorists
gmc wrote: posted by tmc
Which bit of outdated socialist ideaology. The labour party always was a broad church that rejected revolutionary socialism from the outset. So do most of the grass roots members.
The bit that rejects capitalism. the bit that wants strong ties with the trade unions, the bit that would have the better off paying more tax, the bit that thinks people who refuse to work are entitled to unemployment benefit. In short those who hope that when Tony Blair has gone the party will revert back to the Labour party of the 70s.
Which bit of outdated socialist ideaology. The labour party always was a broad church that rejected revolutionary socialism from the outset. So do most of the grass roots members.
The bit that rejects capitalism. the bit that wants strong ties with the trade unions, the bit that would have the better off paying more tax, the bit that thinks people who refuse to work are entitled to unemployment benefit. In short those who hope that when Tony Blair has gone the party will revert back to the Labour party of the 70s.
Italy surrenders to terrorists
Rampant capitalism without a social conscience is every bit as bad as rampant communism. You need to control big companies just as much as you need to control government. I'm inclined to agree with you about the unions but some employers are nasty shits, you need a balance between employer employee.
TB is not a president, the sight of a british prime minister behaving like one I find deeply offensive. "Trust me I'm Tony" really pisses me off. I blame his cronies in New labour for letting him away with it. The only one with any integrity was Robin Cook. He resigned if you remember because he thought the evidence for WMD's was too vague to be taken seriously. Regime change was not the issue and only americans can't seem to grasp that Iraq and Saudi are two different countries.
posted by TMC
The best propoganda material al Queda had was the invasion of Iraq. You don't fight terrorists with conventional armies nor by invading a country that had no connection to them. It was all about oil and the invasion just confirms the double standards.
With hindsight a fear you are right. What I don’t understand is, if Saddam didn’t have WMDs why didn’t he offer unlimited access to the weapons inspectors in the period leading up to the war.
He was playing games trying to stay in power. It was only a matter of time before his regime fell.
Hindsight be blowed, terrorist attacks are nothing new we don't have to look too far back in our own experiance to see what happens when you go in mob handed to deal with a few terrorists.
TB is not a president, the sight of a british prime minister behaving like one I find deeply offensive. "Trust me I'm Tony" really pisses me off. I blame his cronies in New labour for letting him away with it. The only one with any integrity was Robin Cook. He resigned if you remember because he thought the evidence for WMD's was too vague to be taken seriously. Regime change was not the issue and only americans can't seem to grasp that Iraq and Saudi are two different countries.
posted by TMC
The best propoganda material al Queda had was the invasion of Iraq. You don't fight terrorists with conventional armies nor by invading a country that had no connection to them. It was all about oil and the invasion just confirms the double standards.
With hindsight a fear you are right. What I don’t understand is, if Saddam didn’t have WMDs why didn’t he offer unlimited access to the weapons inspectors in the period leading up to the war.
He was playing games trying to stay in power. It was only a matter of time before his regime fell.
Hindsight be blowed, terrorist attacks are nothing new we don't have to look too far back in our own experiance to see what happens when you go in mob handed to deal with a few terrorists.
Italy surrenders to terrorists
Rampant capitalism without a social conscience is every bit as bad as rampant communism. You need to control big companies just as much as you need to control government.
I agree, that’s why prior new labour I classed myself in the camp that used to be called tories with a social conscience.
I'm inclined to agree with you about the unions but some employers are nasty shits,
As are some employee’s
you need a balance between employer employee.
Yes, but as an employer I feel the pendulum has swung to far in favour of the employee.
TB is not a president, the sight of a british prime minister behaving like one I find deeply offensive. "Trust me I'm Tony" really pisses me off. I blame his cronies in New labour for letting him away with it.
I’m glad we’ve got a strong PM, who’s bold enough to take the tough decisions.
The only one with any integrity was Robin Cook. He resigned if you remember because he thought the evidence for WMD's was too vague to be taken seriously. Regime change was not the issue and only americans can't seem to grasp that Iraq and Saudi are two different countries
But curiously, at an inquiry by the Foreign Affairs Committee Robin Cook said: ‘I actually have no doubt about the good faith of the prime minister and others engaged in this exercise,’
Also I cant help thinking, if TB didn’t believe there were WMDs and he deliberately lied in order to take us to war, then wouldn’t it follow, that as part of his master plan, he and bush would have arranged to for WMDs to be found.
He was playing games trying to stay in power. It was only a matter of time before his regime fell
Or was the nutter deliberately trying to give the impression he did have WMDs
I agree, that’s why prior new labour I classed myself in the camp that used to be called tories with a social conscience.
I'm inclined to agree with you about the unions but some employers are nasty shits,
As are some employee’s
you need a balance between employer employee.
Yes, but as an employer I feel the pendulum has swung to far in favour of the employee.
TB is not a president, the sight of a british prime minister behaving like one I find deeply offensive. "Trust me I'm Tony" really pisses me off. I blame his cronies in New labour for letting him away with it.
I’m glad we’ve got a strong PM, who’s bold enough to take the tough decisions.
The only one with any integrity was Robin Cook. He resigned if you remember because he thought the evidence for WMD's was too vague to be taken seriously. Regime change was not the issue and only americans can't seem to grasp that Iraq and Saudi are two different countries
But curiously, at an inquiry by the Foreign Affairs Committee Robin Cook said: ‘I actually have no doubt about the good faith of the prime minister and others engaged in this exercise,’
Also I cant help thinking, if TB didn’t believe there were WMDs and he deliberately lied in order to take us to war, then wouldn’t it follow, that as part of his master plan, he and bush would have arranged to for WMDs to be found.
He was playing games trying to stay in power. It was only a matter of time before his regime fell
Or was the nutter deliberately trying to give the impression he did have WMDs
Italy surrenders to terrorists
Posted by TMC
"But curiously, at an inquiry by the Foreign Affairs Committee Robin Cook said: ‘I actually have no doubt about the good faith of the prime minister and others engaged in this exercise,"
Quotes aren't working.
I actuually had the chance to hear him on the subject-he's my MP. What he meant was TB was kidding himself, he wanted to believe it and any evidence agin it was ignored. He probably did think he was doing the right thing and just saw what he wanted to. Never let the facts get in the way of a good belief. Delusional people can be very convincing. The alternative is that TB is a devious lying ba&*&^D with his own agenda. personally I cannot see what possible benefit Britain will get out of this.
How do you explain GW? Iraq had no connection to the 911 attacks, they were seized upon as an excuse and the american people told Iraquis responsible to the extent that many seem unable to accept there really was no connection. Some realpolitok game perhaps. Protecting their oil supply would be in america's interets and certainly there are those in his administration who think that is a good enough reason to go to war. I prefer not to think of the iraqar as cynical manipulation for purely selfish interests but there is a tendency for powerful people to assume what is good for them is good for everybody. The clever bit is to convince everybody that questioning them is unpatriotic.
Both GW and TB are religious and think god is on their side that only puts me off.
Posted by TMC
"I’m glad we’ve got a strong PM, who’s bold enough to take the tough decisions."
I am dismayed we have a prime minister who ignores public opposition and considers him to be above answering to parliament. He and Maggie Thatcher have been the two most destructive PM's to the British way of life we have ever had. Both display(ed) a stunning poverty of spirit and willingness to ride roughshod over those who oppose them. Having said that I now detest TB even more than i detested Maggie-bet she wouldn't have gone along with this.
"But curiously, at an inquiry by the Foreign Affairs Committee Robin Cook said: ‘I actually have no doubt about the good faith of the prime minister and others engaged in this exercise,"
Quotes aren't working.
I actuually had the chance to hear him on the subject-he's my MP. What he meant was TB was kidding himself, he wanted to believe it and any evidence agin it was ignored. He probably did think he was doing the right thing and just saw what he wanted to. Never let the facts get in the way of a good belief. Delusional people can be very convincing. The alternative is that TB is a devious lying ba&*&^D with his own agenda. personally I cannot see what possible benefit Britain will get out of this.
How do you explain GW? Iraq had no connection to the 911 attacks, they were seized upon as an excuse and the american people told Iraquis responsible to the extent that many seem unable to accept there really was no connection. Some realpolitok game perhaps. Protecting their oil supply would be in america's interets and certainly there are those in his administration who think that is a good enough reason to go to war. I prefer not to think of the iraqar as cynical manipulation for purely selfish interests but there is a tendency for powerful people to assume what is good for them is good for everybody. The clever bit is to convince everybody that questioning them is unpatriotic.
Both GW and TB are religious and think god is on their side that only puts me off.
Posted by TMC
"I’m glad we’ve got a strong PM, who’s bold enough to take the tough decisions."
I am dismayed we have a prime minister who ignores public opposition and considers him to be above answering to parliament. He and Maggie Thatcher have been the two most destructive PM's to the British way of life we have ever had. Both display(ed) a stunning poverty of spirit and willingness to ride roughshod over those who oppose them. Having said that I now detest TB even more than i detested Maggie-bet she wouldn't have gone along with this.
Italy surrenders to terrorists
How do you explain GW?
I don’t
Iraq had no connection to the 911 attacks, they were seized upon as an excuse and the american people told Iraquis responsible to the extent that many seem unable to accept there really was no connection. Some realpolitok game perhaps. Protecting their oil supply would be in america's interets and certainly there are those in his administration who think that is a good enough reason to go to war. I prefer not to think of the iraqar as cynical manipulation for purely selfish interests but there is a tendency for powerful people to assume what is good for them is good for everybody. The clever bit is to convince everybody that questioning them is unpatriotic.
I don’t know if there is any truth in this, but I read some time ago that Iraq, Iran and Russia were considering pricing oil in Euro’s, if that’s true, it would have a major impact on the US economy.
Both GW and TB are religious and think god is on their side that only puts me off.
Does the same for me.
I am dismayed we have a prime minister who ignores public opposition and considers him to be above answering to parliament.
But he does have to answer to parliament.
He and Maggie Thatcher have been the two most destructive PM's to the British way of life we have ever had. Both display(ed) a stunning poverty of spirit and willingness to ride roughshod over those who oppose them
Both Blair and Thatcher had the courage to do what needed to be done, as they saw it.. An admiral quality in a leader imo.
Having said that I now detest TB even more than i detested Maggie-bet she wouldn't have gone along with this.
Wash your mouth out with soap and water.
I don’t
Iraq had no connection to the 911 attacks, they were seized upon as an excuse and the american people told Iraquis responsible to the extent that many seem unable to accept there really was no connection. Some realpolitok game perhaps. Protecting their oil supply would be in america's interets and certainly there are those in his administration who think that is a good enough reason to go to war. I prefer not to think of the iraqar as cynical manipulation for purely selfish interests but there is a tendency for powerful people to assume what is good for them is good for everybody. The clever bit is to convince everybody that questioning them is unpatriotic.
I don’t know if there is any truth in this, but I read some time ago that Iraq, Iran and Russia were considering pricing oil in Euro’s, if that’s true, it would have a major impact on the US economy.
Both GW and TB are religious and think god is on their side that only puts me off.
Does the same for me.
I am dismayed we have a prime minister who ignores public opposition and considers him to be above answering to parliament.
But he does have to answer to parliament.
He and Maggie Thatcher have been the two most destructive PM's to the British way of life we have ever had. Both display(ed) a stunning poverty of spirit and willingness to ride roughshod over those who oppose them
Both Blair and Thatcher had the courage to do what needed to be done, as they saw it.. An admiral quality in a leader imo.
Having said that I now detest TB even more than i detested Maggie-bet she wouldn't have gone along with this.
Wash your mouth out with soap and water.