In God's Name?

[capt_buzzard]

According to yesterday's statement from al-Qa'ida ''In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate, may peace be upon the cheerful one and the dauntless fighter, Prophet Muhammad, God's peace be upon him. O nation of Islam and nation of Arabism, Rejoice for it is time to take revenge on the British and Americans.



al-Qa'ida statement yesterday.





But Christians don't do these horrible things to each other either.

[telaquapacky]

Can't do in God's name what God Himself would not do.

[Clint]

A shepherd kills wolves who threaten to destroy his sheep. He may kill in the name of God because he believes God gave him the duty of protecting the sheep. If he can find the wolf’s home he will destroy his whole family, young and old. He may destroy them by any means available to him. He is doing God’s will because he has the duty of protecting the sheep.

His actions result in the safety and peace of the flock. Peace and safety come with a price. It is the economy of life. If they were free they would be worthless.

The wolves have entered our camp wearing sheep’s clothing. They carry bombs on their backs and blow themselves up on buses, trains and restaurants. The shepherds of the flock are tracking them down and destroying them. Albeit too slowly.

[mominiowa]

Clint~~ You hit the NAIL on the HEAD!~~:yh_tired

[koan]

Clint.

Your post works just as well in the enemy's defence. You justified the OP. I am with Scrat. God has nothing to do with war.

[Clint]

koan wrote: Clint.

Your post works just as well in the enemy's defence. You justified the OP. I am with Scrat. God has nothing to do with war.
You are right Koan, the enemy is using the same thing to justify their actions. The difference is that the enemy targets innocence. We target the combatants hoping the innocent won’t be harmed in the process. That’s all the evidence I really need when I’m trying to decide who is seeking justice with peace in mind and who is seeking vengeance out of hatred and blind anger..

You say “God” wouldn’t do this or wouldn’t do that, yet you yourself have said that you are making up “God” as you go. How can you know the heart of a fictitious image growing in your mind?

[Clint]

Wolves don’t respect. They are actually driven by fear, either succumbing to it or temporarily overpowering it. Standing alone is rare for them. They usually run in packs where they are more able to overpower their fear. We face an enemy that thinks like a wolf. They will only retreat when the pack is broken up and they are unable to overpower their fear.

[capt_buzzard]

I've alway's said that Religion was bad for your health.:-2

[capt_buzzard]

And which GOD?

[koan]

Clint wrote: You say “God” wouldn’t do this or wouldn’t do that, yet you yourself have said that you are making up “God” as you go. How can you know the heart of a fictitious image growing in your mind?


In fact, I said:

koan wrote: God has nothing to do with war.


Is this to turn into a debate over what God is? I think that entirely inappropriate for the exact reason of thinking God has nothing to do with war. Except that the interpretation of God has been the cause of so much war. Would you like to start another one with me at the moment? I hope not.

[Accountable]

capt_buzzard wrote: But Christians don't do these horrible things to each other either.






What about the Irish Catholic/Protestant ... er ... spat?

[Clint]

koan wrote: In fact, I said:



Is this to turn into a debate over what God is? I think that entirely inappropriate for the exact reason of thinking God has nothing to do with war. Except that the interpretation of God has been the cause of so much war. Would you like to start another one with me at the moment? I hope not.
Nope. I wish it wasn’t so, but we would both be wasting time.

[koan]

glad you agree, Clint.

A debate about the nature of God IMO is much more likely to please God when it involves no death. I don't find the concept of God conducive to war or killing in any way shape or form. Hence my response. Some believe in a vengeful God, a wrathful God. I do not. If you do, carry on. Any singular view of god is just that...singular. You do not speak for God nor anyone else, myself included. Any act, be it war or otherwise, is an act of humans.

[capt_buzzard]

Accountable wrote: What about the Irish Catholic/Protestant ... er ... spat? Their God is of the Earth. Some maniac

[capt_buzzard]

koan wrote: glad you agree, Clint.



A debate about the nature of God IMO is much more likely to please God when it involves no death. I don't find the concept of God conducive to war or killing in any way shape or form. Hence my response. Some believe in a vengeful God, a wrathful God. I do not. If you do, carry on. Any singular view of god is just that...singular. You do not speak for God nor anyone else, myself included. Any act, be it war or otherwise, is an act of humans.Lovely Koan.

[Accountable]

capt_buzzard wrote: Their God is of the Earth. Some maniac
Whose god? Catholics or Protestants?

My question was about your assertion that Christians don't do this to each other.

[BTS]

koan wrote: Clint.



Your post works just as well in the enemy's defence. You justified the OP. I am with Scrat. God has nothing to do with war.
Tell that to the murders who quote from the koran as they cut off a living human beings head........ in the name of Allah (God). No no god there huh?

[Clint]

koan wrote: glad you agree, Clint.

A debate about the nature of God IMO is much more likely to please God when it involves no death. I don't find the concept of God conducive to war or killing in any way shape or form. Hence my response. Some believe in a vengeful God, a wrathful God. I do not. If you do, carry on. Any singular view of god is just that...singular. You do not speak for God nor anyone else, myself included. Any act, be it war or otherwise, is an act of humans.
Very well stated and I agree as far as your statement goes. It just falls a little short of recognizing reality.

All of mankind is part of God’s creation. He created us all differently. We have different colored skin, different colored eyes, different sizes, shapes, personalities, likes, dislikes and the list goes on. If we were created to see everything alike we would have the most boring existence I can imagine.

Because we are different, we see Him differently and I believe he meant it to be that way. I won’t go into who I think has the right view and who doesn’t. In that argument no one will prevail.

Because of those God given differences we have clashes over how we believe in God. We clash over culture, over boundaries, over natural resources and other reasons. Not all wars are caused by differences over how to relate to God. It seems though, that those differences somehow get justified by one side or the other claiming God is on their side. I agree that when it comes to greedy motives, God has nothing to do with it, except that He doesn’t intervene.

In the present situation, the Radical Muslims have decided that they don’t like the prevailing and growing culture of the west. As a result they have waged a holy war. They named it. They are the ones who say they are targeting and killing innocent people in the name of God.

Those they have attacked are forced to defend themselves. The methods are debatable as we have witnessed here. There are those (me included) who say that we have a God given right and duty to defend the innocent among us. I believe that a war waged to stop a ruthless aggressor is a war that is of God because it is a response to the deepest instinct He placed within us… the instinct to survive.

The Radical Muslim murderer believes they are responding to the advances of the “Great Satan”. They believe they are waging a holy war ordained by God.

One of us is right because defending against an aggressor is something we do because of the way God created us. I just happen to believe the one that is right is the one who values human life and isn’t trying to wipe out the other side, only stop its aggression. The stated goal of the Radical Muslim is to wipe out the infidel.

Do I believe God wants us to war against each other? No! If He did, He would have sent Yeshua with a mighty army like Mohammad had. I believe God is clear in his desire that we not be the aggressor.

[Ted]

Consider some of the wars etc. of the past;

Fundamentalism exists in all faiths not just Christianity. Let us look at what its legacy has been; the Crusades, the inquisition, the burning of whitches, toturing to death of opponents, terrorism, the shooting of abotion doctors, the harassment of individuals going into aborthion clinics, the picketing of the funerals of young gay men, wars, etc. Fundamentalism promotes the sin of homophobia. Fundamentalism makes the error of exclusivism which is clearly c contrary to the life and teachings of Jeus.

Martin Luther was strongly anti-semitic, he knowingly made use of the inquisition to get rid of his opposition.

John Calvin also made similar use of the inquisition.

A close examination of fundamentalism will show that it closely resembles fascism. Today in the RC Church we have Opus Dei that would seem to be both highly fundamentalist and fascist.

Fundamentalists look for a great daddy in the sky who is going to jump down and pull them out of the soup, sort of thing,. Fundamentalists in general have made the Bible into a source of idolatry.

Shalom

[Ted]

Far Rider :-6

I know what you are saying. There are indeed some fine folks within the fundamentalist fold. I would never deny that.

That being said what I have posted is a general comment conderning fundamentalism. As in any organization there will always be a few exceptions to the rule.

Generally fundamentalists are afraid of reality. They want certainty without any question. Yet in our world and in the cosmos chaos is very prevalent. The fundamentalists want everything neatly ordered and in its place. In a sense they prefer the Newtonian principles which have been shown not to hold in all cases. There is no certainty there. Not all things are neatly ordered and follow the natural laws. In fact, in view of the discoveries of the quantum physicists even the stability of the so called natural laws are now being questions.

Part of the problem is ltheir view of stand if you will on the Bible and the other great faiths around the world.. At any rate we could go into great detail on these issues and I would be happy to if anyone is interested.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[Adam Zapple]

Interesting comments, Ted. Not sure what you mean though when you say Christian fudamentalists are afraid of reality and then use debunking of beholding scientific theory as an example. Seems those that fundamentally believe in the "evidence" and conclusive proof of science (rather than the faith of religion) would be more shaken by the constant discovery of new science that invalidates the old. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point.

[Adam Zapple]

I should also add that the only certainty that fundamentalists believe in is the certainty of God's grace and mercy. Everything else is crapshoot. Fundamentalists definitely see the world as chaotic and uncertain.

[koan]

BTS wrote: Tell that to the murders who quote from the koran as they cut off a living human beings head........ in the name of Allah (God). No no god there huh?


now that doesn't really address the statement made, does it?

I asserted that God has nothing to do with war...it is entirely human. That humans try to bring God into it to justify their human activities does not conclude that God actually has anything to do with it. If someone declares war on behalf of God and the opposition accepts that declaration then the humans achieve the illusion that it is about God. Human beliefs do not make for facts.

Again, I do not speak for God either. I do assume, however, that if God did have something to do with it he would have smote one side of the battle or the other by now. In fact, I don't think God would use battles at all. We would see acts of nature doing the smiting I suspect. Or they would all spontaneously combust. That would more feasibly be an act of God, not a bunch of people running around trying to blow each other up.

[Clint]

Far Rider,

I’ve made an observation and I wonder if I’m alone.

The people I have known who most adamantly oppose what they call fundamentalism are really opposed to the Bible. My observation only... but they usually have an issue in their lives they are unwilling to turn loose of that the Bible says is wrong. Rather than accept that the Bible’s has any authority, they lash out against those who “take it literally”. They simply cannot accept that the Bible says what they are doing is wrong and they should change. They begin an almost frantic search for reasons to discredit the book that points out their problem. Some become very intellectual in their quest to be absolved of any wrong doing.

Job was like that. Job 13:17… Job says; “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. Nevertheless I will argue my ways before Him.” Finally in Job chapter 42 Job humbled himself and God restored his fortunes to him.

I think I’m too much like Job leading up to chapter 42. I would really like to be the one letting God know how it is, while all the time claiming I trust Him. I think maybe many of us are the same way to a lesser or greater degree.

[telaquapacky]

Far Rider wrote: Clint I too am of like passion as you, My father is the man that surrenders all to Christ, if the Bible says it he personalizes it, and applies it to his character. And it is if as though instantly he allows the spirit to take total control of his character, I have never been able to do it that easy and war inside myself over what part I will allow God to control and what part I keep to myself, it is my struggle personally, and I thnk it is the ultimate struggle between a christian and his God. I have observed something myself watching my father all these years, that the more he surrenders to God the more at peace he is, and he has such inner contentment that I am jealous of him for it. I have also noticed that the more he allows God to control his life the more hated he is for it among men. And it is for the very reason you suggest, that men do not want to change themselves so the make war against the man that they see resting in God's righteousness. What they are really observing is a surrendered contented man who would tell them how to love thier families and be at peace with all. I see that they dont really hate my father they hate God, he just happens to be the closest representative to lash out at.

My oservation as well, you are not alone, brother.Rider, you are blessed to have such a great Dad, and I think what you and Clint have written is way cool.

You know, I get bored with the trite, hackneyed "hypocrisy" accusation unbelievers casually toss at us, like they thought they were striking the heart with a dart. May I be so bold as to say that hypocrisy is almost unavoidable for a Christian- and it's part of the experience- and so what? We struggle to live up to a calling and a way of being that is beyond us. Sure we're going to fail sometimes. The only way to never be a hypocrite is never aspire to or claim to seek anything beyond the average. There are a lot of people who will, bless their souls, never be hypocrites. :rolleyes:

[Ted]

Clint :-6

I respect your stand and your right to your beliefs. However, I strongly disagree with the idea that those who oppose Christianity the most don't like what they read in the Bible.

First of all I happen to be a Christian Pluralist. I have spent some 40-45 years studying the Bible, translation, interpretation, Biblical history, theology and archaeology both formally and informally. The fact of the matter is that the Bible cannot be taken literally. It is supported by neither the historical record nor the archaeological record. Nor are some of its contentions such as creation supported by the scientific record.

Now there are folks who are willing to ignore the reality of the situation. That is their right and I would defend that right to the end. However, I cannot and will not ignore the records. Faith is not and does not have to be totally rational however, it ought not to deny the proven realities of the world.

Your observation is simply inaccurate and thus incorrect.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[Ted]

Far Rider :-6

Your comment re the folks of long ago just following their own path and not scripture is both inaccurate and incorrect. This is a judgment from the 21st Cent. and is totally inapplicalbe in dealing with folks of the era of the crusades or the inquisition or the veneration of reliques. These folks must be judged on the basis of their time, knowledge, history, belief systems, language, conceptualization abilities and their culture. To do otherwise is to misjudge completely.



Indeed many of the problems facing us today are the result of man. Especially those following the scriptures: be fruitful and multiply (ah we have done that so well that the world is over populated), have dominion of the animals etc, (yes we have done that to the point of extinction of many species, to have control over the earth and its resources ( we've done that so well that we are now on the brink of human distinction) homosexuality is a sin because it says in Lev. that it is an abomination, yet it also says that eating shell fish and wearing clothes of two different fabrics are abominations. My God we are all in trouble.

There is within the universe a certain degree of chaos that is natural and is not the result of anything untoward.

As far as all faiths leading to God a re-reading of parts of the Bible will clearly show that this is correct, that Jesus meant to be inclusive; Matt 25:31ff will clearly show that. So do many of the parables ie. The wedding feast; who were invited and who ultimately were in attendance; Acts 10:34ff, James 2:13; the parable of the Good Samaritan; the story of Jonah being sent to complete foreigners, though a myth presents some profound truths.

As far as the use of fear. It runs rampant in many fundamentalist circles. The parent who is told that their new born child died because the parents were sinning; the threat of hell and damnation given to someone a non-Christian on their sick bed (that indeed is sick); the constant haranguing of repent and be saved when we should be teaching "Be ye as compassionate as your father in heaven is compassionate. I have to laugh when I think about those trying to "scare the hell out of people". That is a sin

The Beatitudes do not say that one must be a Christian. Even John puts the following words into the mouth of Jesus "I am the way . . ." With that I actually agree. The word way means path or road and Jesus did indeed show the parth, the path of compassion. Read the Great Commandment. We can go to Micah 6:8 where we are clearly told that God requires that we "do justice, love kindliness and walk humbly with your God". That was and is the message and life of Yeshua of Nazareth.

A clear understanding of the points mentioned above re culture etc and the midrashic nature of scripture and its great use of metaphor greatly helps in trying to understand what the authors meant in their day and how it might apply to today. Without such a consideration one really does read into the Bible what they wish to see their, something of which I have been erroneously accused of many times.

A humble servant of my Lord, the Risen Christ

Shalom

Ted :-6

[Ted]

BTW I stand behind the statements I have made re fundamentalism. Please note that I have acknowledged there are many fine folks in that fold but there are others as well.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[Clint]

Ted wrote: Clint :-6

I respect your stand and your right to your beliefs. However, I strongly disagree with the idea that those who oppose Christianity the most don't like what they read in the Bible.

First of all I happen to be a Christian Pluralist. I have spent some 40-45 years studying the Bible, translation, interpretation, Biblical history, theology and archaeology both formally and informally. The fact of the matter is that the Bible cannot be taken literally. It is supported by neither the historical record nor the archaeological record. Nor are some of its contentions such as creation supported by the scientific record.

Now there are folks who are willing to ignore the reality of the situation. That is their right and I would defend that right to the end. However, I cannot and will not ignore the records. Faith is not and does not have to be totally rational however, it ought not to deny the proven realities of the world.

Your observation is simply inaccurate and thus incorrect.

Shalom

Ted :-6
Ted,

Where did I say anything about those who oppose Christianity? Please read what I wrote.

You have told me a multitude of times how educated you are. I’ve got it. You don’t have to keep telling me. It really doesn’t matter to me anyway. A person could have degrees coming out their nose and I would still not accept what they said just because they claim to be educated. I tend to give deference to those who put their positions forward and let them stand on their own. Frankly, when someone leads off with how well educated they are in religion, I immediately assume they are trying to intimidate me so they can indoctrinate me.

You to, have the right to believe what you believe and express it any way you please.

I seldom post here anymore. I get tired of my posts being responded to with the same old; ”I’m a Christian Pluralist”, “the Bible is midrashic”, “Christianity isn’t exclusive”, “fundamentalists are uneducated”, “fundamentalists are homophobes” etc., etc. I come here to enjoy conversation and get honest feedback so I can grow. That same old saw doesn’t do it for me.

Three posts, where three people were talking about how to grow in faith and you reduced them all to the same old stuff you always reduce things to. Ted, that doesn’t reflect education, that reflects and agenda. I’m sorry but you are the one who keeps bringing up your education so I think that after a while it’s fair game.

You say my observations are simply inaccurate and thus incorrect. You made inaccurate assumptions about what I said then pronounced a judgment that indicates you think I’m your student or something. :-5

[koan]

Clint

hate to be a "nit picker" but to say that Ted causes you to not post here very often is a bit of a ... hmmm. lie?

I checked "other posts by Clint"

last 24 1/2 hrs = 23 posts

07-10-2005 = 23 posts

07-09-2005 = 11 posts

7-08-2005 = 23 posts

how much did you post before?

also, Ted having an education is a good thing IMO. People often ask for credentials...he's got them.

yes he says "midrashic" a lot but only because people insist on interpreting the bible literally despite the facts that exist. Both sides could be seen as equally annoying.

If you get turned off the forum by such simple things I'd hate to see you in my shoes! Or those of others who are repeatedly bashed and ganged up on. Pull up your boot straps, young man!

[Raven]

telaquapacky wrote: Rider, you are blessed to have such a great Dad, and I think what you and Clint have written is way cool.

You know, I get bored with the trite, hackneyed "hypocrisy" accusation unbelievers casually toss at us, like they thought they were striking the heart with a dart. May I be so bold as to say that hypocrisy is almost unavoidable for a Christian- and it's part of the experience- and so what? We struggle to live up to a calling and a way of being that is beyond us. Sure we're going to fail sometimes. The only way to never be a hypocrite is never aspire to or claim to seek anything beyond the average. There are a lot of people who will, bless their souls, never be hypocrites. :rolleyes:
LOL!! Good one!

I'm not an unbeliever. I'm a Christian. I'm just not into the 'holier than thou's'. You know the ones.....trying to be holy by works. And forgetting the real important stuff. Like compassion, sacrifice of self to serve others. I'm still trying to work through a real bad experience I had (a couple of them really) at the hands of a 'so called' christian church. I havent been back into a church since I left that one. I've just learned that the faith issues I have, I have to work out alone. The church I attended espoused that I serve an ever changing God. The Bible I read says quite emphatically that He changes NOT! We were warned that these times would be particularly difficult. We were told we would need WISDOM. With that, I cannot disagree.

[spot]

BTS wrote: Tell that to the murders who quote from the koran as they cut off a living human beings head........ in the name of Allah (God). No no god there huh?Why is it, this idea that if we do it it's fine but if they do it it's barbarism? This seems to be so deep-rooted in some people that they seriously don't see the question, much less the answer.

Here's the testimony of David Morris Lewis, who dealt with dozens of condemned prisoners throughout his career as a prison officer... "The chaplain used to read out the 23rd psalm, and the prisoner used to stand there thinking that he'd hear it to the end, but the lever used to be pulled on the words 'my cup runneth over'." No god there, huh? The question isn't whether you think one legal system, being your own, is immune from criticism, and the other is illegal because it's foreign, or it doesn't use your law code. It's the use of the Word of God to "dignify" something that, one would hope and pray, Jesus wouldn't have done himself. And, by God, if you can't imagine our Lord and Saviour pulling the trapdoor lever, or dragging the knife across some poor man's throat, then you have no place supporting anyone else doing it on His behalf.

I'm tired of the evasion when it comes to States abrogating to themselves the right to kill in circumstances where they deny that right to their citizens, this "Killing is no murder" philosophy when it's done "legal". I mentioned a few posts ago on FG that 54 million civilians had died in wars during the 20th century, without even counting any combatants at all. Most of those deaths were "legal" because they were authorised by States who had done the decent thing and declared war with all the trappings and protocols, and then gone and beaten the opposition to hell and gone in unequal combat. This is such a wet-livered apology of an excuse that civilian deaths are unintended, unavoidable, so that makes it alright because it's legal so long as we don't actually want them to die when we press the bomb release tit. Let's call a spade a spade. If that's not murder, the word murder has no meaning distinct from killing. If it's killing, then so's all the rest of what humanity does to itself just killing and not murder. Why do we try so hard to pretend there's two flavors of death, and that State-sponsored killing in war is less vile than any other form of killing? Let's adopt an aim of stopping all killings, perhaps. Where can we have most effect? By stopping States from killing. That gets rid of the bulk of the deaths instantly. Then you can police out the terrorists, the non-State-sanctioned killers, and we'll hit a really low count. Wouldn't that be a good intention?

[Raven]

Clint wrote: Far Rider,

I’ve made an observation and I wonder if I’m alone.

The people I have known who most adamantly oppose what they call fundamentalism are really opposed to the Bible. My observation only... but they usually have an issue in their lives they are unwilling to turn loose of that the Bible says is wrong. Rather than accept that the Bible’s has any authority, they lash out against those who “take it literally”. They simply cannot accept that the Bible says what they are doing is wrong and they should change. They begin an almost frantic search for reasons to discredit the book that points out their problem. Some become very intellectual in their quest to be absolved of any wrong doing.

Job was like that. Job 13:17… Job says; “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. Nevertheless I will argue my ways before Him.” Finally in Job chapter 42 Job humbled himself and God restored his fortunes to him.

I think I’m too much like Job leading up to chapter 42. I would really like to be the one letting God know how it is, while all the time claiming I trust Him. I think maybe many of us are the same way to a lesser or greater degree.
Yet God Himself called Job rightous. Cool huh? Moses, Abraham, Jacob, shoot....even Cain, all of them argued with God. At least God allows us to express our point. The ladies who went before God to plead their case of inheritence actually WON! Clint, nevermind the folks who profess the Word to be false. I will believe that Book of Words over the voice of 'learned' people any day. In the end, we were told in 7 letters, it all boils down to faith. Sometimes, I've found that God will strip away everything a person claims, just to expose what kernal of faith may or may not be there. I believe the bible refers to this as pruning. Personally, I hear the voice of scripture. How else are we to recognise the Lord? By little voices in our heads? Medical science calls that a symptom of schizophrenia. Satan has always called God a liar. The tree of KNOWLEDGE was the one fruit in the garden that was forbidden. So we have had to live with the ever present debate ever since! To believe the voice of God or the voice of Satan saying we will NOT die! Who was right? Well........all depends on who you choose to believe. Faith. It's all we have. And we're told to cling to it.

[Clint]

koan wrote: Clint

hate to be a "nit picker" but to say that Ted causes you to not post here very often is a bit of a ... hmmm. lie?

I checked "other posts by Clint"

last 24 1/2 hrs = 23 posts

07-10-2005 = 23 posts

07-09-2005 = 11 posts

7-08-2005 = 23 posts

how much did you post before?

also, Ted having an education is a good thing IMO. People often ask for credentials...he's got them.

yes he says "midrashic" a lot but only because people insist on interpreting the bible literally despite the facts that exist. Both sides could be seen as equally annoying.

If you get turned off the forum by such simple things I'd hate to see you in my shoes! Or those of others who are repeatedly bashed and ganged up on. Pull up your boot straps, young man!
Koan,

When I said “here”, I meant the religion forum, not the Forum Garden. I apologize for not being clearer on that point. I've been taken to task for mistakes I've made on other forums in the Garden. I can handle it.

I have been back to the religion forum a little more lately and I’ve tried to avoid confronting Ted but it hasn’t worked.

Education is a good thing if it is properly applied. If I started most of my posts with; “I’m and ordained minister” I would expect it to backfire but being an ordained minister isn’t a bad thing. I admit Ted gets to me. It isn’t because his views differ though. My post was very direct with the hope that religion discussions won’t be corralled in the same corner all the time. I would love to hear what else Ted has to say.

You have no doubt had your trials. I don't agree with you a lot but I'm glad you stick around. You broden the spectrum and add depth as well as force me to think.

[Raven]

Far Rider wrote: hahaha Raven I remember that one.. its in Hebrews I believe..something like, the same yesterday, today and forever' Right?
It's saying that in one form or another, just about every other page! It's the ONE thing we are told we can count on! That HE doesnt change!

[Clint]

Raven wrote: Yet God Himself called Job rightous. Cool huh? Moses, Abraham, Jacob, shoot....even Cain, all of them argued with God. At least God allows us to express our point. The ladies who went before God to plead their case of inheritence actually WON! Clint, nevermind the folks who profess the Word to be false. I will believe that Book of Words over the voice of 'learned' people any day. In the end, we were told in 7 letters, it all boils down to faith. Sometimes, I've found that God will strip away everything a person claims, just to expose what kernal of faith may or may not be there. I believe the bible refers to this as pruning. Personally, I hear the voice of scripture. How else are we to recognise the Lord? By little voices in our heads? Medical science calls that a symptom of schizophrenia. Satan has always called God a liar. The tree of KNOWLEDGE was the one fruit in the garden that was forbidden. So we have had to live with the ever present debate ever since! To believe the voice of God or the voice of Satan saying we will NOT die! Who was right? Well........all depends on who you choose to believe. Faith. It's all we have. And we're told to cling to it.
I couldn’t agree more. As hard as I try, I make mistakes. Job made mistakes too but until he was made aware of them through the training session God allowed Satan to put him through he was considered righteous by God. I believe that had Job returned to the condition he was in before the training... God would have quit calling him righteous.

I too serve the Immutable, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Immortal, Infallible, Holy, Eternal, Loving, True, Infinite, Living, Merciful, Compassionate and All Powerful Spirit God. My God could write a book.

[Ted]

Clint :-6 :-6

I am sorry that you feel the way you do. You claim for yourself the right to state your opinions. That is the same right that I claim and I usually back them up with academic research thus I post a full footnote or the name of an author and his book. I do not believe that I begin every post with my eduction, however the intnention is onlyh to show the same point as any academic footnote would show.

You dislike my using the term "midrashic". It sure as hell beats me having to define it all the time in a lengthy paragraph or two just to make the point. You object to my using the term 'Christian Pluralist' ???. Perhaps I should call myself a delusional psychotic?? You don't like the fact that I say that Christianity isn't exlusive, well pardon me but as most modern theologians see it that is exactly correct. I do not believe it is exclusive and I have offered Biblical support for that position. Perhaps you should refute the quotations offered rather then attack me.



I deal in facts based on academic research by very well known and respectecd scholars. If you don't like that, I'm sorry but that is how a debate or discussion goes.

Your statement about ' those who adamantly oppose fundamentalism" led to my comment about non-christian. I was reading between the lines. It I was in error I do apologize. However, was was raised in an excxeedingly fundamentalist church and anyone who was ot of that particular flavour of Christianity was in fact not a Christian. I know for a fact that this attitutde holds in many fundamentalist groups.

I have never said that fundamentalists were uneducated. In fact I know of several who are well educatied.

You say you come here for conversation. Obviously you want only conversation that soothes your own position. I offer conversation but instead of discussing my position it becomes ad homonim.

I am truly sorry if I offend you because that is not my intent. That being said I will continue to offer what I have learned.

Micah 6:8 "He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" That is obviously a quote from the sacred scriptures and that is what I try to practise in all of my life.

Matt 22:36ff "He said to him "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your sould, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS."

A humble servant of my Lord, the Risen Christ.

Shalom

Ted :-6

[Ted]

Far Rider :-6

I am not at all sure what you mean to imply by would God give a commend and not want it followed. Perhaps you could explain a little more. Thanks

Your mathematics does not change the fact that scientists are in general agreement that the world is overpopulated. We could discuss that further if you wish.

If you have been blessed in your faith I am extremely pleased for you. I have as well.

I am not sure what your point about Paul is. Perhaps you could explain a little further.

Your point about proving theBible is somewhat puzzling. Perhaps thre are purple unicorns and I shold hae faith in them. Why is the Bible correct and the Qu'ran incorrect. Both claim to be the word of God.

"If part of it is a lie then all is." I've never said that the Bible was partly a lie. It is written in the style called midrash (sorry Clint but that is how it is). If one doesn't understand how it was written and the style and the culture and the history of the time as well as the fund of knowledge. the belief systems of the day, the nature of the culture etc. then how can one get the interpretation the author intended?

Now we come to the witch burnings etc. You are judging them from your 21st Ceent view. This is essentially meaningless as noted for the sacred scriptures in the above paragraph.

I take no offense and I applaud your stand and your right to do the same.

All I ask the same in return.

A humble servant of my Lord, the Risen Christ.

Shalom

Ted

:-6