Disembowelled, then torn apart: The price of daring to teach girls
Independent.co.uk Web
Kim Sengupta in Ghazni, Afghanistan
Wednesday, 29 November 2006
The gunmen came at night to drag Mohammed Halim away from his home, in front of his crying children and his wife begging for mercy.
The 46-year-old schoolteacher tried to reassure his family that he would return safely. But his life was over, he was part-disembowelled and then torn apart with his arms and legs tied to motorbikes, the remains put on display as a warning to others against defying Taliban orders to stop educating girls.
Mr Halim was one of four teachers killed in rapid succession by the Islamists at Ghazni, a strategic point on the routes from Kabul to the south and east which has become the scene of fierce clashes between the Taliban and US and Afghan forces.
The day we arrived, an Afghan policemen and eight insurgents died during an ambush in an outlying village. Rockets were found, primed to be fired into Ghazni City during a visit by the American ambassador a few days previously.
But, as in the rest of Afghanistan, it is the civilians who are bearing the brunt of this conflict. At the village of Qara Bagh, the family of Mr Halim are distraught and terrified. His cousin, Ahmed Gul, shook his head: "They killed him like an animal. No, no. We do not kill animals like that, it would be haram. They took away a father and a husband, they had no pity. We are all very worried. Please go now, you see those men standing over there? They are watching. It is dangerous for you, and for us."
Fatima Mushtaq, the director of education at Ghazni, has had repeated death threats, the notorious "night letters". Her gender, as well as her refusal to send girls home from school, has made her a particular source of hatred for Islamist zealots.
"I think they killed him that way to frighten us, otherwise why make a man suffer so much? Mohammed Halim and his family were good friends of ours and we are very, very upset by what has happened. He came to me when the threats first began and asked what he should do. I told him to move somewhere safe. I think he was trying to arrange that when they came and took him," she said.
The threats against Ms Mushtaq also extend to her husband, Sayyid Abdul, and their eight children. "When the first letters arrived, I tried to hide them from my husband," she said. "But then he found the next few. He said we must stand together. We talked, and we decided that we must tell the children. So that they can be prepared, but it is not a good way for them to grow up."
Ms Mushtaq is familiar with the ways of the Taliban. During their rule she and her sister ran secret schools for girls at their home. The Taliban beat them for teaching the girls algebra.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
This, presumably, was illegal extra-judicial and criminal. Rather like what used to be done to folks who didn't mind their manners in Mississippi in the fifties and sixties by the same sort of people for the same sort of reasons. It's taken forty years before some of those events have been presented to the courts.
People would be so much more progressive if left to find their own balance. The Afghanis were doing fine until the US massively armed the previously ineffectual Mujahideen as proxy Soviet-killers, really they were.
There's only one circumstance in which fundamentalists capable of these outrages thrive and that's when the societies in which they're established perceive themselves as being persecuted from outside, at which point people sign up in droves with anyone fighting the outsiders. Left to themselves all societies shun extremism - would you like evidence for that? Extremists can't retain control of populations which don't feel themselves to be under attack. It's why extremists want the societies in which they move to be attacked. Why any idiot would attack those societies leaves me baffled, unless they - the attackers - have a pressing desire to be in a state of war. So, guess who I blame for what happened in your story and then tell me why I'm wrong to blame them, because I'm not.
People would be so much more progressive if left to find their own balance. The Afghanis were doing fine until the US massively armed the previously ineffectual Mujahideen as proxy Soviet-killers, really they were.
There's only one circumstance in which fundamentalists capable of these outrages thrive and that's when the societies in which they're established perceive themselves as being persecuted from outside, at which point people sign up in droves with anyone fighting the outsiders. Left to themselves all societies shun extremism - would you like evidence for that? Extremists can't retain control of populations which don't feel themselves to be under attack. It's why extremists want the societies in which they move to be attacked. Why any idiot would attack those societies leaves me baffled, unless they - the attackers - have a pressing desire to be in a state of war. So, guess who I blame for what happened in your story and then tell me why I'm wrong to blame them, because I'm not.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
Sick Sick Sick, to think in this day and age....
I don't even have words...
:-1
I don't even have words...
:-1
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
It takes courage to physically stand up and fight against these things and not just vocally express outrage. I for one support the troupes continuing the battle in Afghanistan; it is shame that their sacrifice is over shadowed by the media covering the Iraq conflict.
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suzy_creamcheese
- Posts: 135
- Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:15 am
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
spot;842557 wrote: This, presumably, was illegal extra-judicial and criminal. Rather like what used to be done to folks who didn't mind their manners in Mississippi in the fifties and sixties by the same sort of people for the same sort of reasons. It's taken forty years before some of those events have been presented to the courts.
People would be so much more progressive if left to find their own balance. The Afghanis were doing fine until the US massively armed the previously ineffectual Mujahideen as proxy Soviet-killers, really they were.
There's only one circumstance in which fundamentalists capable of these outrages thrive and that's when the societies in which they're established perceive themselves as being persecuted from outside, at which point people sign up in droves with anyone fighting the outsiders. Left to themselves all societies shun extremism - would you like evidence for that? Extremists can't retain control of populations which don't feel themselves to be under attack. It's why extremists want the societies in which they move to be attacked. Why any idiot would attack those societies leaves me baffled, unless they - the attackers - have a pressing desire to be in a state of war. So, guess who I blame for what happened in your story and then tell me why I'm wrong to blame them, because I'm not.
good post
People would be so much more progressive if left to find their own balance. The Afghanis were doing fine until the US massively armed the previously ineffectual Mujahideen as proxy Soviet-killers, really they were.
There's only one circumstance in which fundamentalists capable of these outrages thrive and that's when the societies in which they're established perceive themselves as being persecuted from outside, at which point people sign up in droves with anyone fighting the outsiders. Left to themselves all societies shun extremism - would you like evidence for that? Extremists can't retain control of populations which don't feel themselves to be under attack. It's why extremists want the societies in which they move to be attacked. Why any idiot would attack those societies leaves me baffled, unless they - the attackers - have a pressing desire to be in a state of war. So, guess who I blame for what happened in your story and then tell me why I'm wrong to blame them, because I'm not.
good post
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
mikeinie;842575 wrote: It takes courage to physically stand up and fight against these things and not just vocally express outrage. I for one support the troupes continuing the battle in Afghanistan; it is shame that their sacrifice is over shadowed by the media covering the Iraq conflict.
Sacrifice?
Who, precisely, have they sacrificed?
All this talk of sacrifice came into vogue after the First World War when the new memorials were - let me look up the one in town... "sacred to the memory of Bristol’s sons and daughters, who made the supreme sacrifice. They died that mankind might learn to live in peace". What on earth is going on in Afghanistan which teaches that lesson, for goodness sake? This is purely a projection of influence for material gain. Learn to live in peace? People in power seem to have forgotten what the sacrifice in meant to be aid of. They seem instead to be inflaming extremism simply because they can't continue to prosper if they don't have an external enemy to terrify their citizens with.
Sacrifice?
Who, precisely, have they sacrificed?
All this talk of sacrifice came into vogue after the First World War when the new memorials were - let me look up the one in town... "sacred to the memory of Bristol’s sons and daughters, who made the supreme sacrifice. They died that mankind might learn to live in peace". What on earth is going on in Afghanistan which teaches that lesson, for goodness sake? This is purely a projection of influence for material gain. Learn to live in peace? People in power seem to have forgotten what the sacrifice in meant to be aid of. They seem instead to be inflaming extremism simply because they can't continue to prosper if they don't have an external enemy to terrify their citizens with.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
spot;842580 wrote: Sacrifice?
Who, precisely, have they sacrificed?
All this talk of sacrifice came into vogue after the First World War when the new memorials were - let me look up the one in town... "sacred to the memory of Bristol’s sons and daughters, who made the supreme sacrifice. They died that mankind might learn to live in peace". What on earth is going on in Afghanistan that teaches that lesson, for goodness sake? This is pure projection of influence for material gain. Learn to live in peace? People in power seem to have forgotten what the sacrifice in meant to be aid of. They seem instead to be inflaming extremism simply because they can't continue to prosper if they don't have an external enemy to terrify their citizens with.
There is no oil or any natural resources worth fighting over in Afghanistan, it is a baren sh1t hole, this is not like Iraq where it is about oil.
This is the home of the Taliban; don’t you remember the clips of the women being executed in a football stadium for showing their legs in public?
OK the USA wined, dinned and armed them when it suited the US when the taliban fought the Soviets, but that does not make it OK to ignore the violent abuse that takes place there.
This is the breeding ground of everything that we are and should be morally against.
It is easy to say ‘what sacrifice’ when Ireland is always 'claims' neutrality and we have never had to return any of our soldiers home dead.
I say 'claim' as the government still allows the use of Shanon Airport to transport US troops to Iraq so we are hardly neutral.
Who, precisely, have they sacrificed?
All this talk of sacrifice came into vogue after the First World War when the new memorials were - let me look up the one in town... "sacred to the memory of Bristol’s sons and daughters, who made the supreme sacrifice. They died that mankind might learn to live in peace". What on earth is going on in Afghanistan that teaches that lesson, for goodness sake? This is pure projection of influence for material gain. Learn to live in peace? People in power seem to have forgotten what the sacrifice in meant to be aid of. They seem instead to be inflaming extremism simply because they can't continue to prosper if they don't have an external enemy to terrify their citizens with.
There is no oil or any natural resources worth fighting over in Afghanistan, it is a baren sh1t hole, this is not like Iraq where it is about oil.
This is the home of the Taliban; don’t you remember the clips of the women being executed in a football stadium for showing their legs in public?
OK the USA wined, dinned and armed them when it suited the US when the taliban fought the Soviets, but that does not make it OK to ignore the violent abuse that takes place there.
This is the breeding ground of everything that we are and should be morally against.
It is easy to say ‘what sacrifice’ when Ireland is always 'claims' neutrality and we have never had to return any of our soldiers home dead.
I say 'claim' as the government still allows the use of Shanon Airport to transport US troops to Iraq so we are hardly neutral.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
mikeinie;842583 wrote: This is the breeding ground of everything that we are and should be morally against.It wasn't one before the Americans arrived and stirred it up. It won't be again once they leave and go home and fifty years of outraged reaction slowly subsides. The Americans dismantled Iranian democracy in 1953 and look what that directly led to. This is no different.
Meanwhile, the more we insist on being morally outraged enough to kill these pygmies and generate mass support for them the more they'll thrive and grow. The battle is the reason it's a breeding ground in the first place, the billions of dollars poured into supporting the extremist Mujahideen is the reason it's there and not, for example, in Egypt any longer. The extremists went where they could arrange for a civil population to be persecuted and the US is gratefully helping them out indefinitely.
Meanwhile, the more we insist on being morally outraged enough to kill these pygmies and generate mass support for them the more they'll thrive and grow. The battle is the reason it's a breeding ground in the first place, the billions of dollars poured into supporting the extremist Mujahideen is the reason it's there and not, for example, in Egypt any longer. The extremists went where they could arrange for a civil population to be persecuted and the US is gratefully helping them out indefinitely.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
I find that comment really insulting Spot. You'll pin everything on the USA it seems. Yeah, maybe we should just look away and let more torture occur alongside of ignorance as well. Is that what your country does?
Good post, Mike. I can't say it better than you have.
Good post, Mike. I can't say it better than you have.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
spot;842596 wrote: It wasn't one before the Americans arrived and stirred it up. It won't be again once they leave and go home and fifty years of outraged reaction slowly subsides. The Americans dismantled Iranian democracy in 1953 and look what that directly led to. This is no different.
Meanwhile, the more we insist on being morally outraged enough to kill these pygmies and generate mass support for them the more they'll thrive and grow. The battle is the reason it's a breeding ground in the first place, the billions of dollars poured into supporting the extremist Mujahideen is the reason it's there and not, for example, in Egypt any longer. The extremists went where they could arrange for a civil population to be persecuted and the US is gratefully helping them out indefinitely.
So are we to do nothing, and sit back and take no heed as their previous military leaders kill people randomly, keep women uneducated, kill them if they feel like it. But hey, who are we to challenge their beliefs.
The difference in my opinion is that the Afghanistan war is sanctioned by the United Nations, and contrary to media and American belief, there are a lot more countries fighting in Afghanistan that just the Americans. It is too easy to blame the US for everything.
Iraq was not sanctioned by the UN and therefore it is an independent invasion of a country by a foreign power and it’s allies. (and illegal by UN standards).
Meanwhile, the more we insist on being morally outraged enough to kill these pygmies and generate mass support for them the more they'll thrive and grow. The battle is the reason it's a breeding ground in the first place, the billions of dollars poured into supporting the extremist Mujahideen is the reason it's there and not, for example, in Egypt any longer. The extremists went where they could arrange for a civil population to be persecuted and the US is gratefully helping them out indefinitely.
So are we to do nothing, and sit back and take no heed as their previous military leaders kill people randomly, keep women uneducated, kill them if they feel like it. But hey, who are we to challenge their beliefs.
The difference in my opinion is that the Afghanistan war is sanctioned by the United Nations, and contrary to media and American belief, there are a lot more countries fighting in Afghanistan that just the Americans. It is too easy to blame the US for everything.
Iraq was not sanctioned by the UN and therefore it is an independent invasion of a country by a foreign power and it’s allies. (and illegal by UN standards).
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
RedGlitter;842606 wrote: I find that comment really insulting Spot. You'll pin everything on the USA it seems. Yeah, maybe we should just look away and let more torture occur alongside of ignorance as well. Is that what your country does?
Good post, Mike. I can't say it better than you have.
Your good mike...damn good in fact..
Good post, Mike. I can't say it better than you have.
Your good mike...damn good in fact..
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
mikeinie;842611 wrote: So are we to do nothing, and sit back and take no heed as their previous military leaders kill people randomly, keep women uneducated, kill them if they feel like it. But hey, who are we to challenge their beliefs.
The difference in my opinion is that the Afghanistan war is sanctioned by the United Nations, and contrary to media and American belief, there are a lot more countries fighting in Afghanistan that just the Americans. It is too easy to blame the US for everything.I've never blamed the Americans for everything. I blamed them for fanaticizing Afghanistan by pouring billions of dollars into massively arming the previously ineffectual Mujahideen as proxy Soviet-killers. Afghanistan wouldn't be a fundamentalist Islamic state under foreign occupation now if it hadn't been for that bit of devilry.
And yes, you're to stand back and do nothing. That way the impetus for change comes from within which is the only place it can successfully come from. The longer that self-serving charlatans pretend they're trying to impose order from outside - or even try genuinely to impose order from outside - the longer the fanatics will stay in charge.
The difference in my opinion is that the Afghanistan war is sanctioned by the United Nations, and contrary to media and American belief, there are a lot more countries fighting in Afghanistan that just the Americans. It is too easy to blame the US for everything.I've never blamed the Americans for everything. I blamed them for fanaticizing Afghanistan by pouring billions of dollars into massively arming the previously ineffectual Mujahideen as proxy Soviet-killers. Afghanistan wouldn't be a fundamentalist Islamic state under foreign occupation now if it hadn't been for that bit of devilry.
And yes, you're to stand back and do nothing. That way the impetus for change comes from within which is the only place it can successfully come from. The longer that self-serving charlatans pretend they're trying to impose order from outside - or even try genuinely to impose order from outside - the longer the fanatics will stay in charge.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
RedGlitter;842606 wrote: I find that comment really insulting Spot. History often upsets people. Quote what I said that upset you and tell me why it's not true, I'll happily discuss my accuracy but the fact that you're upset isn't actually distressing me. I want people to be upset.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
Then the history of England should upset you plenty.:wah:
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
Bits of it do, definitely. But on the other hand I feel I'm writing in this thread on behalf of those commemorated on the city's War Memorial which I quoted earlier. I'll discuss that too if anyone wants to - the one thing the survivors and relatives who erected the Memorial insisted on was that specific wording. They had no part in "they fell so others might be free" rubbish, or "if it weren't for them we'd all be speaking German". I'd love to quote their extreme anti-war anger if it's considered relevant here.
What happened in the OP is a direct consequence of a bull-run US intelligence operation. It happens with such frequency that there's even a word for it: blowback. I've invited people to quote what I've written in this thread that they're unhappy about so that we can discuss the factual basis underlying the unhappiness. I'm entirely confident that my facts are facts and my interpretations are supportable through comparison with previous similar actions. Come on someone, quote something I've written here and explain in what way it's inaccurate.
What happened in the OP is a direct consequence of a bull-run US intelligence operation. It happens with such frequency that there's even a word for it: blowback. I've invited people to quote what I've written in this thread that they're unhappy about so that we can discuss the factual basis underlying the unhappiness. I'm entirely confident that my facts are facts and my interpretations are supportable through comparison with previous similar actions. Come on someone, quote something I've written here and explain in what way it's inaccurate.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
Loosen your collar and unbutton your shirt. Shirt buttons are flying about like bullets.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
I went to the zoo somewhere in the middle of this thread. People should go to the zoo more often.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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jones jones
- Posts: 6601
- Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:30 am
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
hey ... i'm just a run of the mill dumbass guy ... i know **** about afghanistan ... the taliban or usa policy there ...
but i do know that if a group of people are gonna disembowel a man for teaching women ... they gonna do it no matter who invaded them!
but i do know that if a group of people are gonna disembowel a man for teaching women ... they gonna do it no matter who invaded them!
"…I hate how I don’t feel real enough unless people are watching." — Chuck Palahniuk, Invisible Monsters
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
jones jones;842849 wrote: but i do know that if a group of people are gonna disembowel a man for teaching women ... they gonna do it no matter who invaded them!Had they done it with a legitimate non-fundamentalist Afghan government in power - which existed before the US financing and support of the Mujahideen - they'd have been very properly prosecuted. What they did is and should be treated as a criminal matter. Other than the fundamentalists, who would never have been empowered without US involvement, nobody considers it proper behaviour. The Taliban government was paid for and put into office as a direct consequence of US acts. Come on someone, tell me it's not true and then explain why it's not true.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
spot;842735 wrote: History often upsets people. Quote what I said that upset you and tell me why it's not true, I'll happily discuss my accuracy but the fact that you're upset isn't actually distressing me. I want people to be upset.
I'm not upset. I'm insulted by you once again, as an American. and more so, as a human being. It's getting tiresome. Regardless of what you think about our policies, or how we went about upholding them, I don't feel we as a country need to apologize for fighting people who would kill a man for educating a woman. Another human being. To fight the ignorance that kind of mindset perpetuates.
I would hope you would have more integrity than to go against that. For all the accusations of America being a bully nation, we know that if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything, including the notion that it's preferable or even helpful to turn your back when people are being slaughtered for the most absurd of beliefs. As far as facts go, the fact is I and quite a few others are tired of the swipes you and others continually take against America. Good grief, I suppose there's nothing in the world that isn't directly or indirectly our doing. Wow, that we should be that powerful.
I'm not upset. I'm insulted by you once again, as an American. and more so, as a human being. It's getting tiresome. Regardless of what you think about our policies, or how we went about upholding them, I don't feel we as a country need to apologize for fighting people who would kill a man for educating a woman. Another human being. To fight the ignorance that kind of mindset perpetuates.
I would hope you would have more integrity than to go against that. For all the accusations of America being a bully nation, we know that if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything, including the notion that it's preferable or even helpful to turn your back when people are being slaughtered for the most absurd of beliefs. As far as facts go, the fact is I and quite a few others are tired of the swipes you and others continually take against America. Good grief, I suppose there's nothing in the world that isn't directly or indirectly our doing. Wow, that we should be that powerful.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
rjwould;842981 wrote: Ones reflection is often upsetting too. Do you like being upset as much as you like upsetting others? Does it get your jollies?:)
What I'm hearing from you is "The devil made them do it". However, I'm not surprised considering the source.
What was done to this teacher was wrong.....period..
What are you looking for, Spot, to be told your right....again? If thats what you need to feel complete, let me be the first to give it to you....READY...OKAY, HERE GOES....."your wrong to need to be right"...Did you get that?
Oh wait a moment, you really intended to post all your remarks in the "SCORE POINTS" thread, didn't you?
Now you've got that off your chest, are you going to address the points he raised?
That this sort of evil barbarity would not be happening now if the west had not given power to the Taliban in the first place.
What I'm hearing from you is "The devil made them do it". However, I'm not surprised considering the source.
What was done to this teacher was wrong.....period..
What are you looking for, Spot, to be told your right....again? If thats what you need to feel complete, let me be the first to give it to you....READY...OKAY, HERE GOES....."your wrong to need to be right"...Did you get that?
Oh wait a moment, you really intended to post all your remarks in the "SCORE POINTS" thread, didn't you?
Now you've got that off your chest, are you going to address the points he raised?
That this sort of evil barbarity would not be happening now if the west had not given power to the Taliban in the first place.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
rjwould;843004 wrote: How do you prove either? Nobody knows what would have happened other than to say that the people who did this had the capacity and will to do it whether or not America even existed.
[quote=rj
But making America responsible for every violent act by any Afghan or group of Afghans is purely silly and simple minded.
I echo these sentiments. It's time to give credit where credit is due. America didn't make these monsters act like that- they act like they do of their own accord. The Blame Game is wearisome and inaccurate. These people have never been known for being peace loving, kind human beings. That's not America's fault either. That is their doing. Our hands may not be clean in every possible way but to blame us for every dang thing wrong with other countries is laughable.
[quote=rj
But making America responsible for every violent act by any Afghan or group of Afghans is purely silly and simple minded.
I echo these sentiments. It's time to give credit where credit is due. America didn't make these monsters act like that- they act like they do of their own accord. The Blame Game is wearisome and inaccurate. These people have never been known for being peace loving, kind human beings. That's not America's fault either. That is their doing. Our hands may not be clean in every possible way but to blame us for every dang thing wrong with other countries is laughable.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
rjwould;843004 wrote: How do you prove either? Nobody knows what would have happened other than to say that the people who did this had the capacity and will to do it whether or not America even existed.
I agree... it's unfair to blame the people that try to help. By entangling themselves into a situation that has no good solution, it's a huge liability, and a thankless task if anything results that is less than ideal.
I agree... it's unfair to blame the people that try to help. By entangling themselves into a situation that has no good solution, it's a huge liability, and a thankless task if anything results that is less than ideal.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
RedGlitter;843030 wrote: I echo these sentiments. It's time to give credit where credit is due. America didn't make these monsters act like that- they act like they do of their own accord. The Blame Game is wearisome and inaccurate. These people have never been known for being peace loving, kind human beings. That's not America's fault either. That is their doing. Our hands may not be clean in every possible way but to blame us for every dang thing wrong with other countries is laughable.
Correct me if im wrong ( i so know somebody will lol) but these countries were dishing out these punishments way before the war...I personally find their way of punishing barbaric, jesus we are in the 20th century and still hearing these atrocities are still being carried out.
p.s. If it really really really makes you feel good then ok Spot, YOUR RIGHT....
Correct me if im wrong ( i so know somebody will lol) but these countries were dishing out these punishments way before the war...I personally find their way of punishing barbaric, jesus we are in the 20th century and still hearing these atrocities are still being carried out.
p.s. If it really really really makes you feel good then ok Spot, YOUR RIGHT....
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
rjwould;843004 wrote: How do you prove either? Nobody knows what would have happened other than to say that the people who did this had the capacity and will to do it whether or not America even existed.
No, but you can say, given the conditions that existed before event x, the balance of probabilities are .....
In a country with a legal infrastructure that has not been torn to shreds this type of case would be an extreme and would have been dealt with as such.
No, but you can say, given the conditions that existed before event x, the balance of probabilities are .....
In a country with a legal infrastructure that has not been torn to shreds this type of case would be an extreme and would have been dealt with as such.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
RedGlitter;843030 wrote: I echo these sentiments. It's time to give credit where credit is due. America didn't make these monsters act like that- they act like they do of their own accord. The Blame Game is wearisome and inaccurate. These people have never been known for being peace loving, kind human beings. That's not America's fault either. That is their doing. Our hands may not be clean in every possible way but to blame us for every dang thing wrong with other countries is laughable.
The question is whether they would have been allowed to get away with this behaviour and whether such behaviour could possibly have become an accepted norm.
As you say, America is not to blame for everything and the blame game solves nothing but America does invite it by its aggressive interference and warmongering foreign policy.
The question is whether they would have been allowed to get away with this behaviour and whether such behaviour could possibly have become an accepted norm.
As you say, America is not to blame for everything and the blame game solves nothing but America does invite it by its aggressive interference and warmongering foreign policy.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
Chezzie;843040 wrote: Correct me if im wrong ( i so know somebody will lol) but these countries were dishing out these punishments way before the war...I personally find their way of punishing barbaric, jesus we are in the 20th century and still hearing these atrocities are still being carried out.
p.s. If it really really really makes you feel good then ok Spot, YOUR RIGHT....
Are'nt we in the 21st Century Chezzers? :p
p.s. If it really really really makes you feel good then ok Spot, YOUR RIGHT....
Are'nt we in the 21st Century Chezzers? :p
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
abbey;843052 wrote: Are'nt we in the 21st Century Chezzers? :p
I said 20th so someone could correct me lol......thats my last word on the matter:wah::wah::wah::wah:.......................damn that abbey is good
I said 20th so someone could correct me lol......thats my last word on the matter:wah::wah::wah::wah:.......................damn that abbey is good
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
yaaarrrgg;843039 wrote: I agree... it's unfair to blame the people that try to help. By entangling themselves into a situation that has no good solution, it's a huge liability, and a thankless task if anything results that is less than ideal.
Might I ask how you think we're trying to help? By invading the country?
There is no way that we went into Afghanistan to "help" anyone.
Their choice to entangle themselves in the situation!
Might I ask how you think we're trying to help? By invading the country?
There is no way that we went into Afghanistan to "help" anyone.
Their choice to entangle themselves in the situation!
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
rjwould;843048 wrote: In a perfect world, I agree, but we don't know what we don't know..
but we have a bl00dy g00d idea!
but we have a bl00dy g00d idea!
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
rjwould;843060 wrote: But it proves nothing of the future or whatever happened that was ignored. We simply don't know...
Do you ever feel that you're going round in circles?
I agree, we have no proof, but we have a bl00dy g00d idea. Knowing what was, we can predict, with a reasonable degree of accuracy over the short to medium term, what would have been.
Sometimes proof is not what's needed.
Sometimes, seeing the harm that has come from our actions, we can learn from our mistakes by not insisting on proof that we were wrong - having a bl00dy g00d idea is enough.
Do you ever feel that you're going round in circles?
I agree, we have no proof, but we have a bl00dy g00d idea. Knowing what was, we can predict, with a reasonable degree of accuracy over the short to medium term, what would have been.
Sometimes proof is not what's needed.
Sometimes, seeing the harm that has come from our actions, we can learn from our mistakes by not insisting on proof that we were wrong - having a bl00dy g00d idea is enough.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
rjwould;843083 wrote: I'll accept that. I don't agree with it but if that is where you stand then I accept it.
As far as being in Afghanistan, had the Taliban handed over the people responsible for 9/11, which they knew were guilty of the act, their country would not have been invaded. Iraq is a different story..
The Taliban did not have custody over the people responsible for 9/11. They were given about a month to capture them and hand them over. The invasion force had many times that time and failed to capture them. How were the totally unreasonable demands expected to be met - they were not, they were nothing but a pretext.
As far as being in Afghanistan, had the Taliban handed over the people responsible for 9/11, which they knew were guilty of the act, their country would not have been invaded. Iraq is a different story..
The Taliban did not have custody over the people responsible for 9/11. They were given about a month to capture them and hand them over. The invasion force had many times that time and failed to capture them. How were the totally unreasonable demands expected to be met - they were not, they were nothing but a pretext.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
rjwould;843105 wrote: Perhaps my memory or my exposure to limited news resources at the time hinders me here, but I seem to remember the taliban congress deciding they were not going to pursue bin laden and company.
As Mikeinie said earlier, the invasion of Afghanistan was sanctioned by the the UN.
The Taliban did not have the capability to pursue Bin Laden and company - with all of their men and equipment the Coalition did not have that capability so how do you imagine the Taliban did.
The invasion of Afghanistan was the point at which America lost the moral high ground and the sympathy of world opinion after 9/11 and became the Big Bad Wolf.
As Mikeinie said earlier, the invasion of Afghanistan was sanctioned by the the UN.
The Taliban did not have the capability to pursue Bin Laden and company - with all of their men and equipment the Coalition did not have that capability so how do you imagine the Taliban did.
The invasion of Afghanistan was the point at which America lost the moral high ground and the sympathy of world opinion after 9/11 and became the Big Bad Wolf.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
rjwould;843123 wrote: In my mind it was Iraq that has caused so much grief for us. Obviously however there are many such as yourself who don't agree with that assessment.
If the Taliban had unsuccessfully tried to pursue bin laden and company, why then did they themselves head for the hills? Why was Mullah Omar (sp?) running for his life? I think the evidence pointed to the fact that the Taliban was in cahoots with bin laden.
Why then did the UN back the invasion? And you're not allow to say America made them do it..
After 9/11, the US acted quickly, on 9/20 they demanded that the Taliban give over the person of Osama Bin Laden and allow their troops in to inspect whichever sites they wanted to ensure that no terrorist training sites existed. Having refused to meet moderate Taliban members in Pakistan to negotiate a solution they invaded on 10/7 - just over two weeks after their first demand.
Far from going after Osama Bin Laden, they started by bombing Kabul and Kandihar. Is it any wonder that Mullah Omar ran? What would you do? What would the FBI have GWB do were America invaded.
As for the UN sanctioning the invasion, could you show me where? Having searched I've come up with UNSCR 1373 of 09/28 which imposed financial sanctions but did not sanction invasion and UNSCR 1378 of 11/14 which calls on the Afghan people to refrain from acts of reprisal but is after the invasion.
If the Taliban had unsuccessfully tried to pursue bin laden and company, why then did they themselves head for the hills? Why was Mullah Omar (sp?) running for his life? I think the evidence pointed to the fact that the Taliban was in cahoots with bin laden.
Why then did the UN back the invasion? And you're not allow to say America made them do it..
After 9/11, the US acted quickly, on 9/20 they demanded that the Taliban give over the person of Osama Bin Laden and allow their troops in to inspect whichever sites they wanted to ensure that no terrorist training sites existed. Having refused to meet moderate Taliban members in Pakistan to negotiate a solution they invaded on 10/7 - just over two weeks after their first demand.
Far from going after Osama Bin Laden, they started by bombing Kabul and Kandihar. Is it any wonder that Mullah Omar ran? What would you do? What would the FBI have GWB do were America invaded.
As for the UN sanctioning the invasion, could you show me where? Having searched I've come up with UNSCR 1373 of 09/28 which imposed financial sanctions but did not sanction invasion and UNSCR 1378 of 11/14 which calls on the Afghan people to refrain from acts of reprisal but is after the invasion.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
I can't accept the notion the America deserved what she got. And even though it's denied every time, saying if we hadn't done such and such, we 9/11 etc. wouldn't have happened does just that.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
RedGlitter;842962 wrote: I'm not upset. I'm insulted by you once again, as an American. and more so, as a human being. It's getting tiresome. Regardless of what you think about our policies, or how we went about upholding them, I don't feel we as a country need to apologize for fighting people who would kill a man for educating a woman. Another human being. To fight the ignorance that kind of mindset perpetuates.
I would hope you would have more integrity than to go against that. For all the accusations of America being a bully nation, we know that if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything, including the notion that it's preferable or even helpful to turn your back when people are being slaughtered for the most absurd of beliefs. As far as facts go, the fact is I and quite a few others are tired of the swipes you and others continually take against America. Good grief, I suppose there's nothing in the world that isn't directly or indirectly our doing. Wow, that we should be that powerful.
Thats a good post RG. I didn't mean to drop that first post and run, but I was busy. I think that if a person is not sickened by such appalling brutality against any human being for any reason, but even more disgustingly for trying to give a child (be they Christian, Muslim, Jew, or Agnostic) the gift of a basic education, a child who also happens to be female, then they have lost their way and are not perhaps the person they think they are.
That instead of trying to get their head around how such depravity and cruelty can be acceptable in the name of any religion or cause, but instead should start the moral equivocation almost immeadiately based on a highly selective version of the conspiracy-theory version of world events, and the pop history-lite version of Afganistan's recent history they should really start considering at what point their intellectual self-regard descended into self-righteous facile nonsense.
If disemboweling innocent primary teachers and ripping them apart with motorbikes because they dare to teach infant girls how to read and write in their own language, (all based on some lunatic version of the religious teachings of Mohammed) is what the Taliban are all about, then all civilized people everywhere including Muslims should be prepared to shoulder the cost of destroying the Taliban collectively and individually at whatever cost, because they are an affront to basic humanity, no matter what their own particularlist religious self-justification is for their actions of extreme terror and brutality against their fellow afganistanis.
I would hope you would have more integrity than to go against that. For all the accusations of America being a bully nation, we know that if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything, including the notion that it's preferable or even helpful to turn your back when people are being slaughtered for the most absurd of beliefs. As far as facts go, the fact is I and quite a few others are tired of the swipes you and others continually take against America. Good grief, I suppose there's nothing in the world that isn't directly or indirectly our doing. Wow, that we should be that powerful.
Thats a good post RG. I didn't mean to drop that first post and run, but I was busy. I think that if a person is not sickened by such appalling brutality against any human being for any reason, but even more disgustingly for trying to give a child (be they Christian, Muslim, Jew, or Agnostic) the gift of a basic education, a child who also happens to be female, then they have lost their way and are not perhaps the person they think they are.
That instead of trying to get their head around how such depravity and cruelty can be acceptable in the name of any religion or cause, but instead should start the moral equivocation almost immeadiately based on a highly selective version of the conspiracy-theory version of world events, and the pop history-lite version of Afganistan's recent history they should really start considering at what point their intellectual self-regard descended into self-righteous facile nonsense.
If disemboweling innocent primary teachers and ripping them apart with motorbikes because they dare to teach infant girls how to read and write in their own language, (all based on some lunatic version of the religious teachings of Mohammed) is what the Taliban are all about, then all civilized people everywhere including Muslims should be prepared to shoulder the cost of destroying the Taliban collectively and individually at whatever cost, because they are an affront to basic humanity, no matter what their own particularlist religious self-justification is for their actions of extreme terror and brutality against their fellow afganistanis.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
At last, a productive post instead of a whine, Galbally. Thank you.
"all civilized people everywhere including Muslims should be prepared to shoulder the cost of destroying the Taliban collectively and individually at whatever cost" is the key to your position, I think. You've not addressed - nobody here's addressed - my comment that these fanatics only have groundswell support because the region's been invaded, regardless of who's responsible for that groundswell (though to me it's blatant). If the invaders don't leave then the support's perpetuated. Before Afghanistan was stirred up, what happened in the OP would have been a police matter and dealt with to the best of the country's ability. The country was making progress toward ending this sort of criminality because its society wanted to go that way. Now there's enough support for the criminals for them to continue indefinitely without punishment. Every attempt at punishment - because it's from an external source and not democratic - creates more Taliban and perpetuates the problem.
I'm still sat at "Quote what I said that upset you" - or annoyed you, whatever word best fits - "and tell me why it's not true, I'll happily discuss my accuracy". Nobody's engaged anything I've said. If I missed a paragraph where that happened I apologize but I've not seen it. Do it and I'll have something to discuss. Tell me what I've said which isn't true and tell me why it's not.
"all civilized people everywhere including Muslims should be prepared to shoulder the cost of destroying the Taliban collectively and individually at whatever cost" is the key to your position, I think. You've not addressed - nobody here's addressed - my comment that these fanatics only have groundswell support because the region's been invaded, regardless of who's responsible for that groundswell (though to me it's blatant). If the invaders don't leave then the support's perpetuated. Before Afghanistan was stirred up, what happened in the OP would have been a police matter and dealt with to the best of the country's ability. The country was making progress toward ending this sort of criminality because its society wanted to go that way. Now there's enough support for the criminals for them to continue indefinitely without punishment. Every attempt at punishment - because it's from an external source and not democratic - creates more Taliban and perpetuates the problem.
I'm still sat at "Quote what I said that upset you" - or annoyed you, whatever word best fits - "and tell me why it's not true, I'll happily discuss my accuracy". Nobody's engaged anything I've said. If I missed a paragraph where that happened I apologize but I've not seen it. Do it and I'll have something to discuss. Tell me what I've said which isn't true and tell me why it's not.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
RedGlitter;843189 wrote: I can't accept the notion the America deserved what she got. And even though it's denied every time, saying if we hadn't done such and such, we 9/11 etc. wouldn't have happened does just that.
Nobody deserved what happened on 9/11. My point is that, after 9/11, the US had the moral high ground and the sympathy of the majority of the world's population but it threw it away by it's unreasonable reaction and by its administration's use of the outrage generated to further its own agenda.
Nobody deserved what happened on 9/11. My point is that, after 9/11, the US had the moral high ground and the sympathy of the majority of the world's population but it threw it away by it's unreasonable reaction and by its administration's use of the outrage generated to further its own agenda.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
Jester;843205 wrote: You and Spot just can't stand it when the 'terrorists' get bad press and it reveals who they really are 'disembowellers', 'tear'ers of humans!Let me say it again, if you like. The people who committed the crime in the OP are evil nasty people and their movement has no place in this world or in the future, they have to be stopped.
The West invading the Middle East hasn't stopped them, it's ignited local and regional support for them.
They won't be stopped until popular support for them ends and their communities withdraw support from them. That won't happen until this Western invasion becomes old history. The history is a direct product of US involvement in the region.
Yankee go home. That's the solution to the problem, nothing else will work.
The West invading the Middle East hasn't stopped them, it's ignited local and regional support for them.
They won't be stopped until popular support for them ends and their communities withdraw support from them. That won't happen until this Western invasion becomes old history. The history is a direct product of US involvement in the region.
Yankee go home. That's the solution to the problem, nothing else will work.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
Jester;843205 wrote: The world can go screw yerselves then, everylast one of you who think we lost the moral highground, what total BS...
We are in a war agasint ALL those who fight with terrorism agaisnt us, there is no turning back...
You and Spot just can't stand it when the 'terrorists' get bad press and it reveals who they really are 'disembowellers', 'tear'ers of humans! They are torutrers of humanity and they deserve to die as quickly as possible, and I dont care by what means either!
Face it, you and Spot are on a campagin in FG to destroy any and all good things the USA does.
Its all I hear from you guys... I almost posted on this five times now... now all I did was waste my breath...
Dont bother replying I know what both of you will say.
In what way do I try to destroy any and all of the good that the US does?
I do and will call the US on its first strike policy - it is socially, morally and politically wrong.
I do and will call the US on its refusal to sign Koyoto - it is political expedience at its worst.
I am personally against "From my cold dead hand" and all it stands for.
If that is all of the good that the US does then I am shocked - if you think I try to destroy anything else then show me.
We are in a war agasint ALL those who fight with terrorism agaisnt us, there is no turning back...
You and Spot just can't stand it when the 'terrorists' get bad press and it reveals who they really are 'disembowellers', 'tear'ers of humans! They are torutrers of humanity and they deserve to die as quickly as possible, and I dont care by what means either!
Face it, you and Spot are on a campagin in FG to destroy any and all good things the USA does.
Its all I hear from you guys... I almost posted on this five times now... now all I did was waste my breath...
Dont bother replying I know what both of you will say.
In what way do I try to destroy any and all of the good that the US does?
I do and will call the US on its first strike policy - it is socially, morally and politically wrong.
I do and will call the US on its refusal to sign Koyoto - it is political expedience at its worst.
I am personally against "From my cold dead hand" and all it stands for.
If that is all of the good that the US does then I am shocked - if you think I try to destroy anything else then show me.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
JAB;843218 wrote: And I think you're naive in thinking the Taliban's form of punishment will stop only if the US would leave.
The Taliban's form of punishment will stop only when local society stops becoming Taliban. Local society becomes Taliban because it's under foreign occupation (or, if you want the historical comparison, Iranian society votes for Ayatollahs because its democratic secular government was destroyed by Western bribery and corruption - it's the same thing). Local society will stop becoming Taliban when it controls its own destiny again and it finally puts the abhorrent affront of being interfered with by foreigners into the past. It's not a question of leaving, it's a question of leaving and then letting the locals get on with changing their own society - something they were doing until billions of dollars were poured into a fundamentalist uprising. Blowback happens.
The Taliban's form of punishment will stop only when local society stops becoming Taliban. Local society becomes Taliban because it's under foreign occupation (or, if you want the historical comparison, Iranian society votes for Ayatollahs because its democratic secular government was destroyed by Western bribery and corruption - it's the same thing). Local society will stop becoming Taliban when it controls its own destiny again and it finally puts the abhorrent affront of being interfered with by foreigners into the past. It's not a question of leaving, it's a question of leaving and then letting the locals get on with changing their own society - something they were doing until billions of dollars were poured into a fundamentalist uprising. Blowback happens.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
RedGlitter;842962 wrote: I'm not upset. I'm insulted by you once again, as an American. and more so, as a human being. It's getting tiresome. Regardless of what you think about our policies, or how we went about upholding them, I don't feel we as a country need to apologize for fighting people who would kill a man for educating a woman. Another human being. To fight the ignorance that kind of mindset perpetuates.
I would hope you would have more integrity than to go against that. For all the accusations of America being a bully nation, we know that if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything, including the notion that it's preferable or even helpful to turn your back when people are being slaughtered for the most absurd of beliefs. As far as facts go, the fact is I and quite a few others are tired of the swipes you and others continually take against America. Good grief, I suppose there's nothing in the world that isn't directly or indirectly our doing. Wow, that we should be that powerful.
as a fellow American let me say good post!
i couldn't have said it better myself!
i will add that i think if they had the mindset to torture and kill a man for teaching women i think they would do it regardless of what else is going on in their country!
I would hope you would have more integrity than to go against that. For all the accusations of America being a bully nation, we know that if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything, including the notion that it's preferable or even helpful to turn your back when people are being slaughtered for the most absurd of beliefs. As far as facts go, the fact is I and quite a few others are tired of the swipes you and others continually take against America. Good grief, I suppose there's nothing in the world that isn't directly or indirectly our doing. Wow, that we should be that powerful.
as a fellow American let me say good post!
i couldn't have said it better myself!
i will add that i think if they had the mindset to torture and kill a man for teaching women i think they would do it regardless of what else is going on in their country!
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
Jester;843230 wrote: 'Yankee go home will' insight them to more domain taking and killing, and further thier regional control, yer a stupid as a rock if you dont think so.
I totally disagree with your assumption. You cannot stop them as you claim to be for, short of killing them.
Give War a Chance!
No Sir!
We've seen what war will do - how many million must die before you're satisfied?
Your war is illegal and immoral - all it is doing is creating generations of hatred and years of further killing!
I totally disagree with your assumption. You cannot stop them as you claim to be for, short of killing them.
Give War a Chance!
No Sir!
We've seen what war will do - how many million must die before you're satisfied?
Your war is illegal and immoral - all it is doing is creating generations of hatred and years of further killing!
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
Hope6;843229 wrote: if they had the mindset to torture and kill a man for teaching women i think they would do it regardless of what else is going on in their country!
The only reason they can do it at all and get away with it and not be brought before a court is that they have the support of the local community. It's who they are, the members are those of the local community who fight invaders. Every time one local gets killed by the invaders another two locals join up. Remove the pressure to support them and they can't exist, they'll go back to being arrested and tried by those same locals, that's the way Afghan society was developing before all this fundamentalist Islamic fanaticism was paid for and built up by US interference. Proxy Soviet-killers they were, remember? Armed to the teeth? Death to the foreign invader? President Reagan praised them to the hilt, much as he did with his Contra proxy peasant-killers in Nicaragua, and it's Reagan's mistakes you're paying for today.
The only reason they can do it at all and get away with it and not be brought before a court is that they have the support of the local community. It's who they are, the members are those of the local community who fight invaders. Every time one local gets killed by the invaders another two locals join up. Remove the pressure to support them and they can't exist, they'll go back to being arrested and tried by those same locals, that's the way Afghan society was developing before all this fundamentalist Islamic fanaticism was paid for and built up by US interference. Proxy Soviet-killers they were, remember? Armed to the teeth? Death to the foreign invader? President Reagan praised them to the hilt, much as he did with his Contra proxy peasant-killers in Nicaragua, and it's Reagan's mistakes you're paying for today.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Disemboweled then torn apart for teaching women
spot;843240 wrote: The only reason they can do it at all and get away with it and not be brought before a court is that they have the support of the local community. It's who they are, the members are those of the local community who fight invaders. Every time one local gets killed by the invaders another two locals join up. Remove the pressure to support them and they can't exist, they'll go back to being arrested and tried by those same locals, that's the way Afghan society was developing before all this fundamentalist Islamic fanaticism was paid for and built up by US interference. Proxy Soviet-killers they were, remember? Armed to the teeth? Death to the foreign invader? President Reagan praised them to the hilt, much as he did with his Contra proxy peasant-killers in Nicaragua, and it's Reagan's mistakes you're paying for today.
so it sounds like you're not saying they wouldn't still do it, just that they wouldn't get away with it?
so it sounds like you're not saying they wouldn't still do it, just that they wouldn't get away with it?