jester:-6
I don't mind that approach here. Looks OK to me.
Your comments remind me of an ill person who visits 4 doctors. Each doctor looks at the same data and each one comes up with a different diagnosis. It happens.
I think that you would find that in many ways we are not that far apart on spirituality.
I do think you are correct about the point of words. Most certainly we have a very different view of the sacred scriptures.
What I have said is that the beatitudes are not written in the words of Jesus but do reflect his teachings. If we divide the words attributed to Jesus into those that can be traced back to Jesus than we have his exact teachings. There is another category that become the words of the evangelist or if you will the early church and do not reflect in any way the teachings of Jesus. There is a third category. Words put into Jesus mouth by the evangelists but do reflect his teachings. This would be the category into which the Beatitudes would fall.
By all means if you wish to discuss some verses I would be most happy to accommodate. While we may never seem to agree on a lot we are at least communicating and in one way or another coming to understand each other.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Ted and Jester thread....
Ted and Jester thread....
jester:-6
Your first question concerning how to discern the authentic words of Jesus from those of the evangelist requires dozens of pages, in fact hundreds and the explanation can be found in "The Historical Jesus the Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant", J. D. Crossan, 0-06-061607-5, and in the afore mentioned book "The Authentic Gospel of Jesus, Geza Vermes, 0-713-99567-X, and in "Misquoting Jesus", B. Ehrman, 13;978-0-06073817-4.
There are several factors involved: singular and multiple attestations both internal to the Bible and external; a reference to the multitude of the useful manuscripts, many for Matt. alone and each being different; the observation that newer copies of the book contained additions that were not in the older copies. With some 400 000 variants among all of the NT documents it is impossible to say that we have chosen all correctly. Easy, it is not. Crossan's book contains some 500 pages outlining his process. Vermes's book contains about 446 pages and the shortest one is Ehrman's at 242 pages. There are other books but that should suffice.
Now I will turn to the Beatitudes. The Beatitudes . . . "have been presered in Matthew and Luke in two separate forms. Luke's shorter version generally is held in higher esteem by New Testament scholars as far as authenticity is concerned, but the more reasonable view is that at least in in part Luke and Matthew may reflect two versions both of which originated with Jesus. p312."The Authentic Gospel of Jesus", G. Vermes.
The first one in Matt. 5:3 appears in the manuscripts in two versions some do not have "in spirit" and other do. Nevertheless it is in the present tense, those who are now poor, and is thus not referring to the past at all but to the then future kingdom. This is a well supported phrase and is partly explained in Ps. 34:6 "This poor man cried, and the Lord heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles." I can agree that this person has called upon God but no where does it imply they called upon Jesus.
You use the phrase "Kingdom of heaven". There is an historical reason for using this phrase. The evangelists like most Jews were not used to using the term God.
In fact they deliberately avoided that. The consensus among scholars is that the evangelists intended "Kingdom of God".
According to Jesus this kingdom has already arrived; It is within you, it has come near, it is among you. The kingdom came with Jesus and will continue into eternity.
According to H. C. Kee, pg 615 "The Interpreters' One Volume Commentary . . ., the Beatitudes "are not moral laws, but eschatological promises."
A further comment from Vermes is in order. pg 315 "Matthew's opening Beatitude concerning poverty in spirit constitutes the first qualification for entitlement to a share in the Kingdom. Poverty is one of the top virtues in the Gospels. Jesus preaches the good news to the poor (Matt. 11:5; Luke 7:22) and in his teaching, as well as in his parables the poor are the chief guests invited to the great banquet (Luke 14:13;)"
One thing for sure, if you try to look all of this up you will have quite a bit of reading. LOL.
Shalom
Ted
Your first question concerning how to discern the authentic words of Jesus from those of the evangelist requires dozens of pages, in fact hundreds and the explanation can be found in "The Historical Jesus the Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant", J. D. Crossan, 0-06-061607-5, and in the afore mentioned book "The Authentic Gospel of Jesus, Geza Vermes, 0-713-99567-X, and in "Misquoting Jesus", B. Ehrman, 13;978-0-06073817-4.
There are several factors involved: singular and multiple attestations both internal to the Bible and external; a reference to the multitude of the useful manuscripts, many for Matt. alone and each being different; the observation that newer copies of the book contained additions that were not in the older copies. With some 400 000 variants among all of the NT documents it is impossible to say that we have chosen all correctly. Easy, it is not. Crossan's book contains some 500 pages outlining his process. Vermes's book contains about 446 pages and the shortest one is Ehrman's at 242 pages. There are other books but that should suffice.
Now I will turn to the Beatitudes. The Beatitudes . . . "have been presered in Matthew and Luke in two separate forms. Luke's shorter version generally is held in higher esteem by New Testament scholars as far as authenticity is concerned, but the more reasonable view is that at least in in part Luke and Matthew may reflect two versions both of which originated with Jesus. p312."The Authentic Gospel of Jesus", G. Vermes.
The first one in Matt. 5:3 appears in the manuscripts in two versions some do not have "in spirit" and other do. Nevertheless it is in the present tense, those who are now poor, and is thus not referring to the past at all but to the then future kingdom. This is a well supported phrase and is partly explained in Ps. 34:6 "This poor man cried, and the Lord heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles." I can agree that this person has called upon God but no where does it imply they called upon Jesus.
You use the phrase "Kingdom of heaven". There is an historical reason for using this phrase. The evangelists like most Jews were not used to using the term God.
In fact they deliberately avoided that. The consensus among scholars is that the evangelists intended "Kingdom of God".
According to Jesus this kingdom has already arrived; It is within you, it has come near, it is among you. The kingdom came with Jesus and will continue into eternity.
According to H. C. Kee, pg 615 "The Interpreters' One Volume Commentary . . ., the Beatitudes "are not moral laws, but eschatological promises."
A further comment from Vermes is in order. pg 315 "Matthew's opening Beatitude concerning poverty in spirit constitutes the first qualification for entitlement to a share in the Kingdom. Poverty is one of the top virtues in the Gospels. Jesus preaches the good news to the poor (Matt. 11:5; Luke 7:22) and in his teaching, as well as in his parables the poor are the chief guests invited to the great banquet (Luke 14:13;)"
One thing for sure, if you try to look all of this up you will have quite a bit of reading. LOL.
Shalom
Ted
Ted and Jester thread....
jester:-6
I forgot one question, that of percentages. I can give one set. 80% of the words attributed to Jesus in the Bible cannot be traced back to the historical Jesus. There is probably one for those that reflect his teachings but do not come directly from him but I am unaware of it. I suppose I could count from the lists.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I forgot one question, that of percentages. I can give one set. 80% of the words attributed to Jesus in the Bible cannot be traced back to the historical Jesus. There is probably one for those that reflect his teachings but do not come directly from him but I am unaware of it. I suppose I could count from the lists.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Ted and Jester thread....
jester:-6
It is possible in 5:4 that Matt.'s Jesus is referring to those who have lost loved ones. It is equally possible that "it may describe those bewail the present state of affairs in God's world and long for the coming of the new age." pg. 615, "The Interpreters' One Volume . . .". This would be more in keeping with the first Beatitude.
Your comment on the meek being those who basically recognize their own limitations and thus accept their dependence on God I think is correct.
Luke uses only the term "hunger" referring to those who were then hungering. Matt. added "and thirst for righteousness". This would seem to suggest that the one who shows righteousness in holy living will ultimately inherit that kingdom that all hope for. Righteousness is not about right or correct belief but about our relationship with God.
As far as the comment about the "poor" Jesus whole mission seems to have been about the poor and the oppressed and the downtrodden. The parable of the wedding feast shows the master inviting those from the streets; the street people. He was exceedingly concerned about the impoverished. Looking up kingdom in a concordance will clearly show there are many verses that indicate that Jesus came to the poor the oppressed etc.
Re the kingdom: Matt.3:2; 4:17; 10:7;12:28; Mark 1:15; Luke 10:9, 11; 11:20; 17:20-21. There are of course dozens of others but the indication is that the kingdom has already arrived. It is here, now. It is up to us to discover it.
Shalom
Ted:-6
It is possible in 5:4 that Matt.'s Jesus is referring to those who have lost loved ones. It is equally possible that "it may describe those bewail the present state of affairs in God's world and long for the coming of the new age." pg. 615, "The Interpreters' One Volume . . .". This would be more in keeping with the first Beatitude.
Your comment on the meek being those who basically recognize their own limitations and thus accept their dependence on God I think is correct.
Luke uses only the term "hunger" referring to those who were then hungering. Matt. added "and thirst for righteousness". This would seem to suggest that the one who shows righteousness in holy living will ultimately inherit that kingdom that all hope for. Righteousness is not about right or correct belief but about our relationship with God.
As far as the comment about the "poor" Jesus whole mission seems to have been about the poor and the oppressed and the downtrodden. The parable of the wedding feast shows the master inviting those from the streets; the street people. He was exceedingly concerned about the impoverished. Looking up kingdom in a concordance will clearly show there are many verses that indicate that Jesus came to the poor the oppressed etc.
Re the kingdom: Matt.3:2; 4:17; 10:7;12:28; Mark 1:15; Luke 10:9, 11; 11:20; 17:20-21. There are of course dozens of others but the indication is that the kingdom has already arrived. It is here, now. It is up to us to discover it.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Ted and Jester thread....
jester:-6
We might not be so far apart on the kingdom. Perhaps we should insert a short sidestep.
Sorry, but I have to leave. I am attending an interfaith conference on world peace, tonight and tomorrow.
Shalom
Ted:-6
We might not be so far apart on the kingdom. Perhaps we should insert a short sidestep.
Sorry, but I have to leave. I am attending an interfaith conference on world peace, tonight and tomorrow.
Shalom
Ted:-6