yaaarrrgg;832292 wrote: I apologize if my comments (or sarcasm) were offensive.
I haven't been following the story very closely, but I'm skeptical that those kids would really have harmed the teacher. Third graders don't typically do something like that (at least my limited experience) and I suspect they may have just been wanting to scare the teacher.
If the were serious (which I doubt) the big question in my mind is what on Earth did we as a society or the teacher do to provoke that kind of aggression?
If the students have mental or developmental disabilities, I wonder why we put these kids in an authoritarian, prison-like school system against their will, then we are surprised when they try to make an escape. I think the way kids are treated in public school systems is at times fairly cruel (though not always) ...
Thanks Yaaa.....I appreciate your thoughts. This behavior has rattled me a bit since I am a 3rd grade teacher in a public school. Fortunately, my school is a small, community school and our kids for the most part are just immature, happy go lucky kids. We have a good time in school ,and the kids in my class do have a voice and help make decisions.
Years ago we did have quite a few 6th graders (12 yr. olds) who were so angry about life and might have tried to hurt teachers and their peers, but those children
don't seem to exist right now in my school. But, populations do change and I never say...never.
Third graders conspire murder
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Kathy Ellen
- Posts: 10569
- Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:04 pm
Third graders conspire murder
Kathy Ellen;832313 wrote: Years ago we did have quite a few 6th graders (12 yr. olds) who were so angry about life and might have tried to hurt teachers and their peers, but those children
don't seem to exist right now in my school. But, populations do change and I never say...never.
That's a good point.
I also think it's unfair to teachers (especially the ones that truly care about the kids) to be expected to "fix" these kids. It's an impossible situation. Maybe these kids just need a place they can go, where they can just "be", or more of a social support network.
If they are coming from a difficult situation, piling more requirements on them will only add to their problems and anger IMO. School focuses on created "problems" and having kids "solve" them... but aren't they already trying to do that with adult-sized problems?
I think their discomfort needs to be addressed before they can be expected to want to learn, or make decisions about their future that will ensure their continued happiness.
don't seem to exist right now in my school. But, populations do change and I never say...never.
That's a good point.
I also think it's unfair to teachers (especially the ones that truly care about the kids) to be expected to "fix" these kids. It's an impossible situation. Maybe these kids just need a place they can go, where they can just "be", or more of a social support network.
If they are coming from a difficult situation, piling more requirements on them will only add to their problems and anger IMO. School focuses on created "problems" and having kids "solve" them... but aren't they already trying to do that with adult-sized problems?
I think their discomfort needs to be addressed before they can be expected to want to learn, or make decisions about their future that will ensure their continued happiness.
Third graders conspire murder
I work with specials needs students, and having first-hand insight into how the system operates, I can vouch for how poorly the state deals with these kids. I work for a state run school that hired me, someone who has absolutely no experience with special needs students or a degree in education, to tutor them. I admit that I am probably not qualified, but I have made it my personal aim to really help these kids, even meeting with them on weekends, because I can see that they are not getting the help they need or deserve. Some of my co-workers (mostly college students) don't try to make an effort to understand the student's individual needs. Why should they? They're just after a paycheck. It's really, really sad.
You have a group of young children who already struggle to discern the difference between what is and isn't appropriate.
The system needs a complete make-over, and the parents should be taking courses in how to cope with a special needs child.
You have a group of young children who already struggle to discern the difference between what is and isn't appropriate.
The system needs a complete make-over, and the parents should be taking courses in how to cope with a special needs child.
Third graders conspire murder
rjwould;832323 wrote: If they ain't listenin', they ain't gettin' no education from the school anyway. No matter how much they are forced to be there or how many drugs they get put on, if they don't want to listen, they ain't gonna.
Well I didn't want to go to school, but I had to, and I did learn.
Well I didn't want to go to school, but I had to, and I did learn.
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Kathy Ellen
- Posts: 10569
- Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:04 pm
Third graders conspire murder
Geeze Yaaa, I'm just not used to my new laptop. I tried to reply to your post and poof, in a second, it was gone into cyberspace.....think I was so distracted by watching the news about 6 high schooll girls who were beating the s**t out of a classmate...punching her in the face and kicking her .....and then filming it.
In my school we try to support the kids through professional counseling, Big Brother/Big Sister, "Chat time" in our class where all can vent, a bit of free, relaxing time during the week to destress and classroom guidance.
Our kids help make decisions in my class and here are our class rules that we've all voted on.
"All I Ever Really Needed to Know
I Learned in Kindergarten"
Robert Fulgham
Most of what I really need to know about how to live, and what to do, and how to be, I learned in Kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sandbox at nursery school.
These are the things I learned..
Share everything.
Play fair.
Don't hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don't take things that aren't yours.
Say sorry when you hurt somebody.
Wash your hands before you eat.
Flush.
Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
Live a balanced life.
Learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.
Take a nap every afternoon.
When you go out into the world, watch for traffic, hold hands, and stick together.
Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the plastic cup? The roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the plastic cup - they all die. So do we.
And then remember the book about Dick and Jane and the first word you learned, the biggest word of all: LOOK.
Everything you need to know is in there somewhere.
The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation.
Ecology and politics and sane living.
Think of what a better world it would be if we all - the whole world had cookies and milk about 3 o'clock every afternoon and then lay down with our blankets for a nap. Or if we had a basic policy in our nation and other nations to always put things back where we found them and cleaned up our own messes. And it is still true, no matter how old you are, when you go out into the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.
-Thank you Miss DeNote, My kindergarden teacher at Adaire School in Feltonville
Elliott
In my school we try to support the kids through professional counseling, Big Brother/Big Sister, "Chat time" in our class where all can vent, a bit of free, relaxing time during the week to destress and classroom guidance.
Our kids help make decisions in my class and here are our class rules that we've all voted on.
"All I Ever Really Needed to Know
I Learned in Kindergarten"
Robert Fulgham
Most of what I really need to know about how to live, and what to do, and how to be, I learned in Kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sandbox at nursery school.
These are the things I learned..
Share everything.
Play fair.
Don't hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don't take things that aren't yours.
Say sorry when you hurt somebody.
Wash your hands before you eat.
Flush.
Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
Live a balanced life.
Learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.
Take a nap every afternoon.
When you go out into the world, watch for traffic, hold hands, and stick together.
Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the plastic cup? The roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the plastic cup - they all die. So do we.
And then remember the book about Dick and Jane and the first word you learned, the biggest word of all: LOOK.
Everything you need to know is in there somewhere.
The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation.
Ecology and politics and sane living.
Think of what a better world it would be if we all - the whole world had cookies and milk about 3 o'clock every afternoon and then lay down with our blankets for a nap. Or if we had a basic policy in our nation and other nations to always put things back where we found them and cleaned up our own messes. And it is still true, no matter how old you are, when you go out into the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.
-Thank you Miss DeNote, My kindergarden teacher at Adaire School in Feltonville
Elliott
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Kathy Ellen
- Posts: 10569
- Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:04 pm
Third graders conspire murder
yaaarrrgg;832292 wrote:
If the students have mental or developmental disabilities, I wonder why we put these kids in an authoritarian, prison-like school system against their will, then we are surprised when they try to make an escape. I think the way kids are treated in public school systems is at times fairly cruel (though not always) ...
It's the law that kids have to attend school until they're 16 yrs. old and can quit with a parent's permission.
For some of our kids who have anger issues, there are few choices of schools to place them in...... We do have alternative schools and local high schools that have alternative programs for the kids. They can also choose to take a GED (general equivalency program) that they can complete online, and if they pass they receive a high school diploma.
If the students have mental or developmental disabilities, I wonder why we put these kids in an authoritarian, prison-like school system against their will, then we are surprised when they try to make an escape. I think the way kids are treated in public school systems is at times fairly cruel (though not always) ...
It's the law that kids have to attend school until they're 16 yrs. old and can quit with a parent's permission.
For some of our kids who have anger issues, there are few choices of schools to place them in...... We do have alternative schools and local high schools that have alternative programs for the kids. They can also choose to take a GED (general equivalency program) that they can complete online, and if they pass they receive a high school diploma.
Third graders conspire murder
Kathy Ellen;832381 wrote: Geeze Yaaa, I'm just not used to my new laptop. I tried to reply to your post and poof, in a second, it was gone into cyberspace.....think I was so distracted by watching the news about 6 high schooll girls who were beating the s**t out of a classmate...punching her in the face and kicking her .....and then filming it.
In my school we try to support the kids through professional counseling, Big Brother/Big Sister, "Chat time" in our class where all can vent, a bit of free, relaxing time during the week to destress and classroom guidance.
Our kids help make decisions in my class and here are our class rules that we've all voted on.
"All I Ever Really Needed to Know
I Learned in Kindergarten"
Robert Fulgham
Most of what I really need to know about how to live, and what to do, and how to be, I learned in Kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sandbox at nursery school.
These are the things I learned..
Share everything.
Play fair.
Don't hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don't take things that aren't yours.
Say sorry when you hurt somebody.
Wash your hands before you eat.
Flush.
Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
Live a balanced life.
Learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.
Take a nap every afternoon.
When you go out into the world, watch for traffic, hold hands, and stick together.
Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the plastic cup? The roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the plastic cup - they all die. So do we.
And then remember the book about Dick and Jane and the first word you learned, the biggest word of all: LOOK.
Everything you need to know is in there somewhere.
The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation.
Ecology and politics and sane living.
Think of what a better world it would be if we all - the whole world had cookies and milk about 3 o'clock every afternoon and then lay down with our blankets for a nap. Or if we had a basic policy in our nation and other nations to always put things back where we found them and cleaned up our own messes. And it is still true, no matter how old you are, when you go out into the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.
-Thank you Miss DeNote, My kindergarden teacher at Adaire School in Feltonville
Elliott
Nice one Kathy, I think a lot of people feel the same way.
In my school we try to support the kids through professional counseling, Big Brother/Big Sister, "Chat time" in our class where all can vent, a bit of free, relaxing time during the week to destress and classroom guidance.
Our kids help make decisions in my class and here are our class rules that we've all voted on.
"All I Ever Really Needed to Know
I Learned in Kindergarten"
Robert Fulgham
Most of what I really need to know about how to live, and what to do, and how to be, I learned in Kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sandbox at nursery school.
These are the things I learned..
Share everything.
Play fair.
Don't hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don't take things that aren't yours.
Say sorry when you hurt somebody.
Wash your hands before you eat.
Flush.
Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
Live a balanced life.
Learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.
Take a nap every afternoon.
When you go out into the world, watch for traffic, hold hands, and stick together.
Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the plastic cup? The roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the plastic cup - they all die. So do we.
And then remember the book about Dick and Jane and the first word you learned, the biggest word of all: LOOK.
Everything you need to know is in there somewhere.
The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation.
Ecology and politics and sane living.
Think of what a better world it would be if we all - the whole world had cookies and milk about 3 o'clock every afternoon and then lay down with our blankets for a nap. Or if we had a basic policy in our nation and other nations to always put things back where we found them and cleaned up our own messes. And it is still true, no matter how old you are, when you go out into the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.
-Thank you Miss DeNote, My kindergarden teacher at Adaire School in Feltonville
Elliott
Nice one Kathy, I think a lot of people feel the same way.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
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Kathy Ellen
- Posts: 10569
- Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:04 pm
Third graders conspire murder
elixer;832358 wrote: I work with specials needs students, and having first-hand insight into how the system operates, I can vouch for how poorly the state deals with these kids. I work for a state run school that hired me, someone who has absolutely no experience with special needs students or a degree in education, to tutor them. I admit that I am probably not qualified, but I have made it my personal aim to really help these kids, even meeting with them on weekends, because I can see that they are not getting the help they need or deserve. Some of my co-workers (mostly college students) don't try to make an effort to understand the student's individual needs. Why should they? They're just after a paycheck. It's really, really sad.
You have a group of young children who already struggle to discern the difference between what is and isn't appropriate.
The system needs a complete make-over, and the parents should be taking courses in how to cope with a special needs child.
Thank you Elixer,
You are a good person...all of our kids need help. I am a regular ed teacher but do have special ed kids in my class. We do everything we can to help our kids...
They stay with me for most of the day for the social sciences and specials and are pulled out for Language Arts....but they have no services with math...:-5 oy vey, it's all I can do to help them. Soooo, the kids and I just have special times to work collaboratively.
You have a group of young children who already struggle to discern the difference between what is and isn't appropriate.
The system needs a complete make-over, and the parents should be taking courses in how to cope with a special needs child.
Thank you Elixer,
You are a good person...all of our kids need help. I am a regular ed teacher but do have special ed kids in my class. We do everything we can to help our kids...
They stay with me for most of the day for the social sciences and specials and are pulled out for Language Arts....but they have no services with math...:-5 oy vey, it's all I can do to help them. Soooo, the kids and I just have special times to work collaboratively.
Third graders conspire murder
Thank you, Kathy.
It is refreshing to know that there are those out there who still try to make a difference.
It is refreshing to know that there are those out there who still try to make a difference.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Third graders conspire murder
I teach high school special ed, behavior management unit. I think the third graders lack self control, and could have done real damage if they hadn't been stopped. Ever see Lord of the Flies?
My kids show the same lack of control. They often start feeding off their own excitement, spiraling ever upward until someone intervenes. I'd hate to think of what some of them might be capable of as a group, where no one has to take responsibility & all are following the others.
My kids show the same lack of control. They often start feeding off their own excitement, spiraling ever upward until someone intervenes. I'd hate to think of what some of them might be capable of as a group, where no one has to take responsibility & all are following the others.
Third graders conspire murder
Or just improve the institution...
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Third graders conspire murder
rjwould;832452 wrote: I watched a TV documentary recently about the new public housing initiative in New Orleans.
The houses are nice and look like regular neighborhood. The spokesperson said that these neighborhoods do better because it is a place where the residents can take pride in where they live.
It is such a contrast to the old style of public housing where the idea was to warehouse people rather than provide a place they can make into a home.
The schools look like warehouses too and need to be torn down and redesigned. And kids must be permitted to sleep later, wake up slower, feel the appreciation of a new day beginning. They need shorter school days with more freedom to be the people they can be.
Will there be problems? Of course, but with a new attitude in the adults, difficulties can be worked out through dialog rather than forcing behavior on them..
That's a lovely thought but that's not the way the real world operates. The real world is not a Montessori school, it's full of buzzers, alarms, and deadlines. It's not ceasing any time soon either. So how does the previous prepare the kids for real life in a crazy world?
The houses are nice and look like regular neighborhood. The spokesperson said that these neighborhoods do better because it is a place where the residents can take pride in where they live.
It is such a contrast to the old style of public housing where the idea was to warehouse people rather than provide a place they can make into a home.
The schools look like warehouses too and need to be torn down and redesigned. And kids must be permitted to sleep later, wake up slower, feel the appreciation of a new day beginning. They need shorter school days with more freedom to be the people they can be.
Will there be problems? Of course, but with a new attitude in the adults, difficulties can be worked out through dialog rather than forcing behavior on them..
That's a lovely thought but that's not the way the real world operates. The real world is not a Montessori school, it's full of buzzers, alarms, and deadlines. It's not ceasing any time soon either. So how does the previous prepare the kids for real life in a crazy world?