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anastrophe
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Post by anastrophe »

i generally agree.



i last smoked pot in my early 20's. i'm in my mid-forties now. i tried many, many other drugs besides pot. not a few that i'm sure few here have ever heard of. i didn't 'start' with pot and graduate to other drugs, contrary to the silly scare tactic always bandied about. but you name it, i've tried it, at least once.



the only part i disagree with is 'legalizing' it - and it's really just me splitting hairs. legalizing it would mean that anyone could use it, at any time, at any age. if pot were legalized, that means that a five year old could smoke it, and you could mount a bong in your car. what's needed is to decriminalize it. decriminalizing means that use by those under the age of consent that's decided upon - 15, 18, 21 - could not partake, not legally. adults however could partake, so long as they didn't abuse it - and by abuse, that means driving while under the influence, deep frying a turkey while under the influence, etc - any activity where the fact that one's perception is altered can put you and others at risk of harm.



like i said, i'm essentially splitting hairs, as it's pretty clear that's what you mean. but the distinction between legalized and decriminalized is significant and important.



mind altering drugs have been used by humans since prehistoric times. prohibitions on what are entirely normal, human tendencies are unfortunate - at least when those prohibitions extend beyond 'do no harm'. lock a kid up for fifteen years for possessing an ounce of weed? this is justice? (need i add the counterpoint - serial rapists and murderers who get fifteen years also - and get out on 'good behavior' after seven, only to recommit their favorite crimes - this is justice?)
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Bill Sikes
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Post by Bill Sikes »

I'd like the lot to be legitimised. My scenario would be if you want to take it,

fine, you can. Anything you want. However, mis-deeds carried out "under

the influence" would be heavily peanalised - no excuses (like the drunken

person claiming "I did not know what I was doing!"). Half the reason people

get into illegal substances is that they are forbidden. A great deal of crime is

carried out by people who want money to pay for their expensive illegal

substances. Legitamising the lot would, at a stroke, get rid of one reason

for using these things, and rid us of a major cause of crime.
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anastrophe
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Post by anastrophe »

jaycee wrote: However the thought of legalising say heroin scares the bejeesus out of me - I don't know why - ignorance possibly or brainwashing from the media but it seriously disturbs me to think about that prospect.
the funny thing is, heroin - the pure drug, obviously, not adulterated street stuff - is one of the safest drugs known to man. The *only* negative side-effect of long term usage is constipation. That's it. In those countries where heroin is legal (but regulated), you cannot tell a heroin addict from the guy in the next cubicle. people function normally, by and large.



it's the adulterants in the street drug that cause the panoply of terrible side-effects and disease. legalize and regulate it, and the profit motive goes away, so there's no street drug, no adulterants, and the damage to society becomes virtually non-existent.



this does not apply to many other drugs though, obviously. speed in its many forms will eventually burn-out the user, causing terrible health problems. crack cocaine is so insanely habituating that nothing else in life matters beyond getting to that high spot you had at the first puff (i know, i tried it).



then, of course, there's alcohol. talk about your panoply of side-effects. yikes. and i can get that at the corner grocery for just a few bucks!
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Bill Sikes
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Post by Bill Sikes »

channidae wrote: It should definately be "decriminalized" as Anastrophe said... age restriction 18 or 21 or whatever, with the same or similar penalties as alcohol misuse...


It hasn't been prohibited in the U.S.A. for very long, anyway.... I can't

help wondering how much crime was committed in tose days due to

the availability of cannabis.....
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Post by Paula »

My experience dealing with people using pot and apply for a job at my business is this: #1. i know you are a stone head...limited ability in all areas. #2. they cannot get out of bed, #3. habitual pot smokers have a permanent disability-socially. #4. if you flunk the drug test and have an accident working for me, I am out of a living. (period). if your life is about - repetition, or working with others who burn, stay there. i don't think its good after too many years, way back when okay, but now, no-way....
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anastrophe
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Post by anastrophe »

and for a counterpoint:

a friend and roommate of mine back in my mid-twenties was a big pot smoker. he smoked pot any opportunity he could.



smoked pot all through college - UC Berkeley; Degree in forestry. later, got a teaching credential, and was a high school teacher for several years. very well regarded and respected. the pot never interfered with his teaching abilities. later he decided to pursue post-graduate work in veterinary medicine, and now has a Phd in same. smoked pot through all that too.



currently he's back teaching high school.
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Paula
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Post by Paula »

i agree there are educated people who can teach and do all those things with pot in their brains, i can usually tell a pot smoker, thats okay...and yes, there is a link with burners and forestry. most of the time men who use heavy equipment, on and off the road, as i have here are beer drinkers. we need to have drug testing for mine, safety, health administration, and to drive (tri-axles) and dump trailers 600 plus miles per. day - you cannot have any form of drugs, alcohol over-usage is identified immmediately. I do not condem pot smokers, but i do believe they have one speed, prolonged use brings on toxicity, and inability to handle or be subjective to stressful situations, we would not be successful here with it...
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Post by Paula »

Signature explains completely, drugs affect the brain, and thats okay, its your brain not mine....lol, cheerio :guitarist - color my world with hope...not dope...
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Post by Paula »

Hello, you have revealed a problem on my behalf, in which there is not, its an opinion & signatures usually send a message, its in the eye of the reader and how they interpet what is written. You are okay, you're going to be okay, so everything is okay, right? don;t be so hard on yourself and me, lighten up....not light up... :confused: :wah: :thinking:
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Post by koan »

If the regulations exist to keep five year olds from getting access then they have failed. There are drugs being pushed in elementary schools everywhere. Kids are being recruited to sell them.

Legalizing MIGHT improve the situation by regulating the sale, putting drug dealers out of business and making sure that the drugs are not contaminated.

I've known a number of potheads. Just cause someone smokes doesn't make them one. There is a tendency to escape reality in users but they will always find a way. The worst would be suicide.

I hate the government regulating personal choices. They don't improve the lives of the people who want to make those choices and I don't find they really protect anyone when they legislate our bodies.
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Post by capt_buzzard »

Bill Sikes wrote: I'd like the lot to be legitimised. My scenario would be if you want to take it,

fine, you can. Anything you want. However, mis-deeds carried out "under

the influence" would be heavily peanalised - no excuses (like the drunken

person claiming "I did not know what I was doing!"). Half the reason people

get into illegal substances is that they are forbidden. A great deal of crime is

carried out by people who want money to pay for their expensive illegal

substances. Legitamising the lot would, at a stroke, get rid of one reason

for using these things, and rid us of a major cause of crime.


Very good Bill.
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Post by Paula »

Yup, Capt. Buzzard & Bill, you are right, i think Koan is possessed though.
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Peg
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Post by Peg »

While I don't smoke it myself, I have no problem with people who do. I think sometimes that some people should so maybe they would be less judgemental, rude, and bitter and maybe chill out. :-3
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Post by greydeadhead »

Many a fortune was made during the Prohibition days.. and organized crime flourished. So, legalize it. But.. if you are gonna do that, create the necessary laws to go with it.. last thing we need is a bunch of stoners driving around.. running machines.. etc. And just think of the sales tax benefits..

And if you are wondering .. yep.. fired up the first doobie at 14 and have not looked back since.. anyone up for a Scooby Snak..ehehehehehehe
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Post by Paula »

Over smoking is not good, just like too much drinking, pot is strong herb, i could never adjust to burning? :)
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Post by greydeadhead »

Wow.. since I enjoy firing up the occasional spliff and quaffing a couple of cold ones I lack self respect and am a weak person. Even better I am incurring the wrath of the Islamic world because of these decadent habits.. oh no.. Damned to Hell for eternity..
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Post by Paula »

Yup, and now you have an excuse to fire one up. oh did i upset you? Pot smoking is another sensitive topic here, so be very careful, they will insult you. Burners i have been aquainted with use the herb as a relaxant, a potent one at that, others as a stimulant? I don't need it, thank you. :-6
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Post by koan »

I have done drugs and I have not done drugs (including caffeine and sugar). In both circumstances my contribution to the world around me has not differed greatly. It is not the substance that is "bad" it is the use to which it is employed.

Drugs have always been in existence and used to be used for spiritual achievement. I believe that the misuse of drugs has increased as it was suppressed and made illegal. The crime that exists to run the drug trade exists not because of the users but because of the government that makes it an underground activity.

That is how I feel about it.
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Post by greydeadhead »

Upset me.. naaaahhh... now I just find you amusing .. Insulted.. nope. I have been insulted by better than you. Thankfully you don't need it or do drugs. The idea of you on any kind of non prescriped pharmaceutical scares me.. so please stay straight.
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Bill Sikes
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Post by Bill Sikes »

greydeadhead wrote: Upset me.. naaaahhh... now I just find you amusing .. Insulted.. nope. I have been insulted by better than you. Thankfully you don't need it or do drugs. The idea of you on any kind of non prescriped pharmaceutical scares me.. so please stay straight.


How rude. Apparently you're not "above" whoever you're replying to. In this

case you're replying to "Koan", so I guess you're using "linear mode" and have

c ocked it up
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Post by Paula »

Gray-Dead-Head - practice what you preach, or do you know who you are? Under The Influence Again? Gray (darkening, faded), Dead (GONE)-Head (of what?). If it's about tolerance, and it's painless, your not tolerating very well at all, take a deep breath and let it go. No pot here or scripts, just Borage oil, Dandelion, Swiss Kriss. - Keeps All Systems Running Well.
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greydeadhead
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Post by greydeadhead »

Apologies to Koan and thank you Bill for pointing it out to me in wonderful Brit fashion. I have not heard that term in years....
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Bill Sikes
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Post by Bill Sikes »

greydeadhead wrote: thank you Bill for pointing it out to me in wonderful Brit fashion. I have not heard that term in years....


Sorry, I'm a bit touchy at the moment.
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Post by greydeadhead »

not a problem.. we all have our moments...
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anastrophe
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Post by anastrophe »

gnr2 wrote: I believe that the consumption of any drug, including alcohol, indicates a lack of respect for oneself and a weakness.are you genuinely talking about consumption of any drug, or of mind-alterants only? if you truly mean "any drug", do you forego the use of any and all drugs? caffiene? aspirin? if you had a kidney stone, would you refuse the morphine the hospital anesthesiologist would offer you? i can tell you i didn't, and i know extremely few people who would. i suppose one might accept pain equivalent to having a burning hot knife twisted in one's back on moral grounds, but i would consider that moral foolishness.



now, if you are talking only about mind alterants, can you explain what specifically about mind alterants inherently indicates lack of respect for one's self/a weakness? if one can alter one's mind through non-drug means, is that acceptable, and if so, why? for example, if i spin around as fast as i can, i can make myself dizzy, causing all things in my visual perception to become distorted, and to lose the ability, albeit briefly, to stand up straight or walk a straight line. included in that experience is variably giddiness, and nausea. genuinely an altered stated of consciousness by any measure, and one which small children seek out with fervor. similarly, if one exercises for extended intervals, the brain begins generating natural endorphins, which can create a sense of wellbeing, hyper alertness, and at times giddiness. this could be characterized as a chemically induced altered state, but without the application of external chemicals.



now, if you are only objecting to external chemically induced altered states of mind, can you explain why it is unacceptable to reach a given altered state through external chemical means, when one can reach the same altered state through non-chemical means? what, explicitly, is wrong with consuming a chemical to reach an altered state, and why does it show lack of self-respect to do so?



what about chemicals such as antidepressants? they cause an altered mental state, but one that is very favorable to the person suffering from debilitating depression. is that acceptable under your credo? if so, why?





People who take drugs, speaking as someone who is at university surrounded by drugs of all kinds, are a disgrace to their families and to themselves. very harsh words. disgrace is an interesting concept. it has strong moral overtones. back in the 1960's, many people considered it a disgrace when hippies burned their draft cards and refused to serve their country. yet others considered it a disgrace that one would go to a foreign land and kill people in service to their nation. similar feelings obtain even today, except that all those who serve do so voluntarily. which disgrace is the real disgrace?





They will never fulfill their true potential because they are clearly more concerned with having a good time than making a difference to the world which they live in. this is a demonstrably false statement. first, one's true potential is purely subjective, rather than an objective state that another - you - can determine. secondly, having a concern for 'having a good time' and 'making a difference to the world which they live in' are not mutually exclusive propositions. while one can argue that when one is under the influence of a mind alterant, chances are they won't be simultaneously developing a cure for cancer, one can't rationally argue that a person will spend all of their time always trying to develop a cure for cancer. even the most gifted, tireless, and hardworking cancer researcher will take time off from their endeavors to enjoy a good meal, have sex with the one they love, sleep, go hiking on the weekend, read a good book, watch a movie, listen to music, etc.. If that cancer researcher should also choose to enjoy a good martini, and get a little 'tight' on friday night, how does that negate their contribution to society?



as i've related in another topic (or was it this one?), one of my dear friends from many years ago was a heavy pot smoker, through his studies at University of California, Berkeley (culminating in a degree in forestry), then while getting his teaching credential, while working as a high school teacher and cheerleading coach, then through his post graduate years (culminating in a masters in veterinary medicine). i've lost touch with him over the years, but last i heard he was back at teaching. yes, clearly more interested in having 'good time' than in reaching his potential and leaving the world a better place!





I was always taught that you should always think in life, will my actions alow me to leave the world a better place than i found it, the consumption of drugs in any form does not, in fact it encourages drug dealers and so anti-social behaviour and criminal activity.another demonstrably false construct, if only by your inclusion up top of *any* drug, including alcohol. last i heard, alcohol is legal, and consumption in any form does *not* in fact encourage drug dealers, if only because alcohol isn't contraband. setting that aside, the drug dealer/anti-social behavior/criminal activity angle is predicated strictly on the illegality of the substance, not specifically on the substance itself. there are very good arguments that can be made that decriminalizing most mind alterants would have a net positive effect on society, by eliminating the enormous profit potential inherent in dealing in contraband. drug dealers go bye-bye if you can pick up a pack of marijuana cigarettes at the local grocery store.





I believe the fact that clearly intelligent and educated individuals can support the use of any drug is symptomatic of the decadence that has spread throughout western culture and to make a connection, i believe it is attitudes such as this and this decadence that the Islamic world is reacting against.clearly intelligent and educated individuals have been taking mind altering drugs for thousands of years, far preceding western culture and the islamic world.



if that's your argument, then do you consider women showing their faces to be decadent? women being educated, decadent? this also is something the islamic world is reacting against. should we accede to the islamic creed, and force all women to cover themselves so as not to 'tempt' men?



frankly, and to put it indelicately, i don't give a rat piss what the islamic world doesn't like.



oh, mind-alterants. in my youth, i tried everything. you name it, i've tried it. and many drugs far outside the mainstream that few have ever heard of. 5-methoxydimethyltryptamine, anyone?



the last significant mind-alterant i took - aside from the morphine the anesthesiologist injected into my IV (twice, as the first dose did *nothing* to stop the pain), was freebase cocaine, aka 'crack' cocaine. that was way back in the 1980's. i'd love to do it again, but the risks and costs if caught outweigh the brief delight it would impart. but it sure was fun - though had i not stopped of my own volition, i'd probably not be here now. since then, the mind alterants i enjoy are:



coffee, strong, every morning, two cups, and anyone tries to take that away from me and they'll be looking down the barrel of my 12 gauge shotgun.



the occasional glass of red wine.



the even less frequent martini, single-malt scotch, metaxa, or other hard liquor.



i take those mind alterants of my own free choice, my own free will, and i am a contributing member of society. i'm not living up to my true potential, but that's due to far too many other things - the mind alterants don't even figure into it.



this post brought to you by sciatica: sciatica, the new cure for sleep, try some today! (been up since 4:30am my time)
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Post by Paula »

Thank God for you Paul, I appreciate and like your comments very much. Well detailed and explained. Excellent. :-6
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Post by koan »

I actually thought that he was replying to Paula since she queried "did I upset you?"

Regardless, we are all equal in the digital world and out.
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Post by Paula »

Koan, I am pleased to read you are looking out for me, Thank You Very Much. I will re-read Anas's post, we have had a very busy day here today. :p
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Post by koan »

gnr2 wrote: Another outstanding contribution Paul, your detailed analysis of my thread was bang on. I agree with you in every respect, i did not define my terms accurately, my statements were at best subjective, at worst grossly inaccurate and unfounded. However, i have two comments; it is interesting you were the only one to pick up on this fact and secondly, this had all the characteristics of a rant, think about that the next time you embark on one of yours.




It was an outstanding contribution, Paul.

Most of my posts can be credited to sciatica as well, my sympathy goes out to you.

gnr2

Look to post #25 in this thread. The use of drugs in ancient times and the illegality of drugs as the cause of drug related crime were, actually, already mentioned. Paul did a much better job in his post though...as it managed to snag your attention.
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Post by Paula »

Koan, i know you don't need weed, how about some cat nip?
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Post by koan »

Paula wrote: Koan, i know you don't need weed, how about some cat nip?


Are you suggesting I try what you are taking? Who is being "catty"?

BTW catnip herbally is good for colds and flus, stomach problems. It is a carminative, anti-spasmodic, diaphoretic, sedative and astringent. Quite beneficial when used properly.
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Post by gmc »

I think it should be legalised, it is absurd that you can obtain demonstrably harmful drugs like alcohol legally but someone taking cannabis to relieve the symptoms of thigs like MS should be classed a criminal. Taking heroin and smoking opium used to be very fashionable, heck the british went to war with the chinese to force them to import it

But i also have a slightly ambivalent attitude. I know two people who have gone on to develop severe mental illness as a result of too much cannabis, it is in certain individuals a trigger for manic depression. I too was a student and surrounded by people taking drugs and experimenting with all sorts of substances. i never did, not out of any moral objection it just had no appeal. I had an acquaintance who flew out a seventh floor window while on LSD. Certainly he hasn't touched drugs since. I have been with friends having a bad trip, like I say it had no appeal. I also watched one individual quite literally blow his mind away to the point he bacame almost vegetative, gradually all his friends disassociated themselves from him. Then again alcohol does the same thing. I like alcohol and regularly go to the off licence and take prisoners, currently I am experimentimg with european wheat beer. Any slight incoherence in this post is due to my having consumed half a bottle of the proceeds of the australian wine harvest.

I find myself wholly in agreement with anastrophe :-2

posted by gnr2

I believe the fact that clearly intelligent and educated individuals can support the use of any drug is symptomatic of the decadence that has spread throughout western culture and to make a connection, i believe it is attitudes such as this and this decadence that the Islamic world is reacting against.


I believe that the fact that clearly intelligent and educated individuals believe that they and only they have the moral authority to tell everybody else what is right and what is wrong is the sign of a crisis in western, and islamic society come to that. I am right and thou art wrong hacketh it not.
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Post by beautyful »

I have never taken any drugs in my life and I don't intend to but if you lot wanna get stoned then who am I to say its wrong?!
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Post by beautyful »

ranger27910 wrote: Hi Beautyful,

Thank you for your attitude; it is very refreshing. :)


was that a little bit sarcastic? seriously as long as I am not bullied into doing it, go for it, knock yourselves out!!!! :D
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Post by Paula »

What is this all about? What is the defense about POT? Marijuana is Pot, right? Weed, i thought so, no puff here, too strong for me. :wah: :wah:
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Post by Paula »

Be careful - anything to do with (POT) drugs, and GAY MARRIAGE gets really HOT!...everyone has their own ideas, thats the way it should be. :-3
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Post by Paula »

Ranger, you can smoke weed, i have no problem with you doing something you enjoy...i tried last year, could not function...dry mouth..confused...and you are a trucker, it runs in the blood here. I have myself (5) trucks, tri's and trailers. you know what the big highway is about. :driving: :driving:
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