Jun 22, 5:37 PM (ET)
By LAURIE KELLMAN
WASHINGTON (AP) - The House on Wednesday approved a constitutional amendment that would give Congress the power to ban desecration of the American flag, a measure rejected twice by the Senate in the past decade but expected to get a closer vote this year.
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http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050622/D8ASTK500.html
Flag burning may be outlawed
Flag burning may be outlawed
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
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nvalleyvee
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Flag burning may be outlawed
i think it is sooooo disrespectful to burn the flag. I didn't agree with it when it started during the Viet Nam protests. I hope it passes.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
Flag burning may be outlawed
All it will do is provide another opportunity for mass civil disobedience. Not that there aren't enough opportunities already. Protesters have taken to collectively carrying huge numbers of digicams to these events, to disprove police evidence - mainly related to sworn claims of assault upon police officers - in court. Isn't technology wonderful? Whoever isn't being beaten up is taking video evidence that the ones being beaten up aren't resisting. I'm sure burning a thousand flags would make their point and rile a few nationalists.
I've never burned a flag, in case you wondered.
I've never burned a flag, in case you wondered.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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nvalleyvee
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Flag burning may be outlawed
WASHINGTON - A constitutional amendment to outlaw flag burning cleared the House Wednesday but faced an uphill battle in the Senate. An informal survey by The Associated Press suggested the measure doesn't have enough Senate votes to pass.
Supreme Court Ruling: The burning of the American flag is considered "symbolic speech" and is protected under the First Amendment.
I can see the point of the Supreme Court. My personal belief is against burning the flag - it drapped my father's coffin as an honor to his military service.
Supreme Court Ruling: The burning of the American flag is considered "symbolic speech" and is protected under the First Amendment.
I can see the point of the Supreme Court. My personal belief is against burning the flag - it drapped my father's coffin as an honor to his military service.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
Flag burning may be outlawed
I'm with flopstock on this one. One of the things our flag stands for
is your right to burn it. I say, let them. This is a great candidate for
BR's "I don't care" thread.
Don't give flag burners any air time. Majority rule, let all of us who
revere the flag and all it stands for do so at any and every
opportunity. So what if a few low-lifes want to burn it? They are
the lowest of the low.
I am proud to say I have the 48 star flag that was on my grandfather's
coffin.
My flag is a beautiful flag. Anyone who burns it can't REALLY hurt it
OR me. Too many other flags and other people to take a place for
freedom and the American way.
:yh_flag :yh_flag :yh_flag
is your right to burn it. I say, let them. This is a great candidate for
BR's "I don't care" thread.
Don't give flag burners any air time. Majority rule, let all of us who
revere the flag and all it stands for do so at any and every
opportunity. So what if a few low-lifes want to burn it? They are
the lowest of the low.
I am proud to say I have the 48 star flag that was on my grandfather's
coffin.
My flag is a beautiful flag. Anyone who burns it can't REALLY hurt it
OR me. Too many other flags and other people to take a place for
freedom and the American way.
:yh_flag :yh_flag :yh_flag
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anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Flag burning may be outlawed
one of the great things about our system is that it is designed to be slow. while sometimes legislation can be advanced in a speedy fashion, the more significant and sweeping the aim, the longer it takes.
flag burning amendments have come before the house and senate five times before over the last twenty years or so, i believe. so far, they've never garnered enough votes. there's a possibility this one might - but then, the sluggish factor will kick in. it's an amendment to the constitution, the highest law of the land. and the framers of it were no chuckleheads. they recognized how important it was, and how important it is for it not to be tampered with.
in most matters of legislation in the US, a simple majority vote is required to pass the law. even that is hooked with barbs to slow it down though - first the house must pass it, then the senate must pass it, *then* it goes to the president, who may pass or veto it. and once it's law, it may be challenged and brought before the third arm of our tripartate system, the supreme court.
it really is a brilliant design.
in many other matters that go before our lawmakers, they must achieve a 'supermajority' - two thirds vote in favor. that's a path meant to even further slow the wheels down. that's the case with amendments to the constitution.
in the case of a constitutional amendment, it must go before the states individually, and there an effective 'super-supermajority' is required, because it takes 3/4ths of the states passing it for it to be ratified.
as i mentioned, flag burning laws have come up from time to time in the past. they're a curious bit of legislation to me. they are effectively 'symbolically symbolic'. a flag is just a bit of colored cloth. it's what it symbolizes that's important. anyone can burn a bit of colored cloth, burning the flag is a symbolic act of [defiance/disgust/disdain/disrespect/hatred/anger/etc] directed towards the country whose flag is represented - not towards the colored cloth itself. anti-flag-burning laws are symbolic too, they're not laws against burning colored cloth - even though that's what they might accomplish - they're laws symbolic of the [love/reverence/esteem/etc] that other people hold for the values symbolized by the flag.
the reality behind this rambling however is that even if they do manage to pass the law, and get it ratified for inclusion in the constitution......it's not going to stop anyone from burning a flag! more than anything else, it will make that act of [defiance/hatred/etc] all the more piquant and stinging, which is precisely what is desired by those who burn the flag.
so, while the intent of the law may be one thing, i think these layers of symbolism will conspire to make flag burning that much more of an issue, and that much more an act of defiance, if it passes.
which may, in a curious way, be a good thing. it'll raise the ante.
i would burn a flag under the right conditions, no question about it. so far in my 45 years, i've never felt the desire to do so. we (my wife and i) did feel the desire to raise the flag immediately after september 11th....we only had a small, cheaply made flag, put out on national holidays. we had no flag mount, so we stuck it in a gap in the fence for a few months.
i love my country, when its right a feel proud, when it's wrong i feel sad, but i love it either way. the flag is a nice symbol. but it's not the country.
i don't really have a conclusion here. so....the end.
flag burning amendments have come before the house and senate five times before over the last twenty years or so, i believe. so far, they've never garnered enough votes. there's a possibility this one might - but then, the sluggish factor will kick in. it's an amendment to the constitution, the highest law of the land. and the framers of it were no chuckleheads. they recognized how important it was, and how important it is for it not to be tampered with.
in most matters of legislation in the US, a simple majority vote is required to pass the law. even that is hooked with barbs to slow it down though - first the house must pass it, then the senate must pass it, *then* it goes to the president, who may pass or veto it. and once it's law, it may be challenged and brought before the third arm of our tripartate system, the supreme court.
it really is a brilliant design.
in many other matters that go before our lawmakers, they must achieve a 'supermajority' - two thirds vote in favor. that's a path meant to even further slow the wheels down. that's the case with amendments to the constitution.
in the case of a constitutional amendment, it must go before the states individually, and there an effective 'super-supermajority' is required, because it takes 3/4ths of the states passing it for it to be ratified.
as i mentioned, flag burning laws have come up from time to time in the past. they're a curious bit of legislation to me. they are effectively 'symbolically symbolic'. a flag is just a bit of colored cloth. it's what it symbolizes that's important. anyone can burn a bit of colored cloth, burning the flag is a symbolic act of [defiance/disgust/disdain/disrespect/hatred/anger/etc] directed towards the country whose flag is represented - not towards the colored cloth itself. anti-flag-burning laws are symbolic too, they're not laws against burning colored cloth - even though that's what they might accomplish - they're laws symbolic of the [love/reverence/esteem/etc] that other people hold for the values symbolized by the flag.
the reality behind this rambling however is that even if they do manage to pass the law, and get it ratified for inclusion in the constitution......it's not going to stop anyone from burning a flag! more than anything else, it will make that act of [defiance/hatred/etc] all the more piquant and stinging, which is precisely what is desired by those who burn the flag.
so, while the intent of the law may be one thing, i think these layers of symbolism will conspire to make flag burning that much more of an issue, and that much more an act of defiance, if it passes.
which may, in a curious way, be a good thing. it'll raise the ante.
i would burn a flag under the right conditions, no question about it. so far in my 45 years, i've never felt the desire to do so. we (my wife and i) did feel the desire to raise the flag immediately after september 11th....we only had a small, cheaply made flag, put out on national holidays. we had no flag mount, so we stuck it in a gap in the fence for a few months.
i love my country, when its right a feel proud, when it's wrong i feel sad, but i love it either way. the flag is a nice symbol. but it's not the country.
i don't really have a conclusion here. so....the end.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Flag burning may be outlawed
"A moth-eaten rag on a worm-eaten pole
It does not look likely, to stir a mans soul
'Tis the deeds that were done neath the moth-eaten rag
When the pole was a staff, and the rag was a flag"
- Sir Edward Hamley
It does not look likely, to stir a mans soul
'Tis the deeds that were done neath the moth-eaten rag
When the pole was a staff, and the rag was a flag"
- Sir Edward Hamley
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Flag burning may be outlawed
i would burn a flag under the right conditions, no question about it.
Just out of curiosity, what exactly would those conditions be?
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anastrophe
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Flag burning may be outlawed
turbonium wrote: Just out of curiosity, what exactly would those conditions be?
i don't know.
i don't know.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
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nvalleyvee
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Flag burning may be outlawed
I still want to know what sybolic speech means - either you are saying something or you are not. Symbolism gives way to interpretation and usually involved in the written word. What the heck is symbolic speech according to the first ammendment? I think action and word are two different things.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
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Accountable
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Flag burning may be outlawed
nvalleyvee wrote:
I can see the point of the Supreme Court. My personal belief is against burning the flag - it drapped my father's coffin as an honor to his military service.
But do you believe burning should be outlawed?
Individual beliefs are one thing. Enacting laws to impose those beliefs is something else entirely. I gave 21 years of my life serving our nation so that pinheads and patriots alike can say what they want, do what they want, be what they can accomplish. I would give my life defending patriots like David813 and Jives, and self-loathing pinheads like TW2005.
Somebody help me out with the quote: Something like Those who would give up a little freedom for a little security deserve neither.
I feel the same for those who would restrict speech for civility's sake.
I can see the point of the Supreme Court. My personal belief is against burning the flag - it drapped my father's coffin as an honor to his military service.
But do you believe burning should be outlawed?
Individual beliefs are one thing. Enacting laws to impose those beliefs is something else entirely. I gave 21 years of my life serving our nation so that pinheads and patriots alike can say what they want, do what they want, be what they can accomplish. I would give my life defending patriots like David813 and Jives, and self-loathing pinheads like TW2005.
Somebody help me out with the quote: Something like Those who would give up a little freedom for a little security deserve neither.
I feel the same for those who would restrict speech for civility's sake.
Flag burning may be outlawed
i could never face my Dad in heaven if i desecrated the flag that graced his coffin. i would be ashamed.
Flag burning may be outlawed
I just replaced the flag I fly on my home because it was getting faded. I was careful not to let the old one touch the ground and I have it wrapped in plastic until it can be properly disposed of. I can’t treat it with disrespect. It just isn’t in me.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
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anastrophe
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Flag burning may be outlawed
but you know what is most interesting, and most ironic?
the only way to properly dispose of the american flag.....is to burn it.
look it up, it's true.
the only way to properly dispose of the american flag.....is to burn it.
look it up, it's true.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Flag burning may be outlawed
anastrophe wrote: but you know what is most interesting, and most ironic?
the only way to properly dispose of the american flag.....is to burn it.
look it up, it's true.
Right. I'm wondering how to do that with all the laws about open burning we now have. I don't want to do the right thing while breaking the law.
the only way to properly dispose of the american flag.....is to burn it.
look it up, it's true.
Right. I'm wondering how to do that with all the laws about open burning we now have. I don't want to do the right thing while breaking the law.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
Flag burning may be outlawed
anastrophe wrote: but you know what is most interesting, and most ironic?
the only way to properly dispose of the american flag.....is to burn it.
look it up, it's true.yes, but in a respectful venue. the last time i had to do it, i took my son's boy scout troop to the beach and we had a ceremonial and respectful burning, with all the right words spoken.
the only way to properly dispose of the american flag.....is to burn it.
look it up, it's true.yes, but in a respectful venue. the last time i had to do it, i took my son's boy scout troop to the beach and we had a ceremonial and respectful burning, with all the right words spoken.
Flag burning may be outlawed
lady cop wrote: yes, but in a respectful venue. the last time i had to do it, i took my son's boy scout troop to the beach and we had a ceremonial and respectful burning, with all the right words spoken.
Those boys will never forget that and they will probably never be able to burn a flag disrespectfully.
Those boys will never forget that and they will probably never be able to burn a flag disrespectfully.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
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anastrophe
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Flag burning may be outlawed
lady cop wrote: yes, but in a respectful venue. the last time i had to do it, i took my son's boy scout troop to the beach and we had a ceremonial and respectful burning, with all the right words spoken.
certainly. but it's still palpably ironic.
certainly. but it's still palpably ironic.
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anastrophe
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Flag burning may be outlawed
worth note, from one of the AP articles on this:
Since 1789, there have been more than 11,000 attempts in Congress to amend the Constitution; only 27 amendments have won ratification. The last, in 1992, prevents Congress from passing a law giving itself a pay raise before the next election. The 26th Amendment, in 1971, extended the right to vote to citizens as young as 18.
Since 1789, there have been more than 11,000 attempts in Congress to amend the Constitution; only 27 amendments have won ratification. The last, in 1992, prevents Congress from passing a law giving itself a pay raise before the next election. The 26th Amendment, in 1971, extended the right to vote to citizens as young as 18.
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Flag burning may be outlawed
Clint wrote: Those boys will never forget that and they will probably never be able to burn a flag disrespectfully.Clint , you are very kind. what was really neat about that night, i timed it with a launch from cape canaveral. so the boys surfed all day, we had the ceremonial, and then they saw a rocket lift off from the cape, i don't think any of them will forget it ever. the ground shook, the sky lit up, and those kids were awestruck...if i ever did anything good, that was the day.
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capt_buzzard
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Flag burning may be outlawed
I hope you are right Lady Cop. Anyway who in their right frame of mind gets off burning nations flags.
Flag burning may be outlawed
lady cop wrote: Clint , you are very kind. what was really neat about that night, i timed it with a launch from cape canaveral. so the boys surfed all day, we had the ceremonial, and then they saw a rocket lift off from the cape, i don't think any of them will forget it ever. the ground shook, the sky lit up, and those kids were awestruck...if i ever did anything good, that was the day. Beautiful, Lady Cop, simply beautiful.
Any others who need to properly dispose of a flag, call your local VA.
A lot of them will do it for you.
Any others who need to properly dispose of a flag, call your local VA.
A lot of them will do it for you.
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greydeadhead
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Flag burning may be outlawed
Okay. since burning the flag is considered freedom of speech.. one of your consitiutional rights.. I truely have to wonder....
If someone burned a bible or koran in a public display of protest, what would the reaction of the Christian and Muslim communities be... after all it is freedom of speech.. correct...
If someone burned a bible or koran in a public display of protest, what would the reaction of the Christian and Muslim communities be... after all it is freedom of speech.. correct...
Feed your spirit by living near it -- Magic Hat Brewery bottle cap
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capt_buzzard
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Flag burning may be outlawed
greydeadhead wrote: Okay. since burning the flag is considered freedom of speech.. one of your consitiutional rights.. I truely have to wonder....
If someone burned a bible or koran in a public display of protest, what would the reaction of the Christian and Muslim communities be... after all it is freedom of speech.. correct...Well its always better than bombing.
If someone burned a bible or koran in a public display of protest, what would the reaction of the Christian and Muslim communities be... after all it is freedom of speech.. correct...Well its always better than bombing.
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anastrophe
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Flag burning may be outlawed
flopstock wrote: I would think you'd get the same reaction. People are either offended by it or just wouldn't care . Interesting point though. Is there a law on the books regarding cross burning?
yes, there are laws against cross burning, principally framed as public safety measures, because a burning cross can set other things on fire.
this is where i actually agree with (SHRIEK) hillary clinton, who issued a statement regarding the proposed amendment, along the lines of the above - that it's better to have it as legislation where it can be addressed on several levels, rather than as an amendment to the constitution, where it becomes a lightning rod on so many different levels.
yes, there are laws against cross burning, principally framed as public safety measures, because a burning cross can set other things on fire.
this is where i actually agree with (SHRIEK) hillary clinton, who issued a statement regarding the proposed amendment, along the lines of the above - that it's better to have it as legislation where it can be addressed on several levels, rather than as an amendment to the constitution, where it becomes a lightning rod on so many different levels.
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Flag burning may be outlawed
anastrophe wrote: one of the great things about our system is that it is designed to be slow.
Which is kind of why I'm mad at the "Patriot Act".
..it's not going to stop anyone from burning a flag! more than anything else, it will make that act of [defiance/hatred/etc] all the more piquant and stinging, which is precisely what is desired by those who burn the flag.
Darn straight...you can't make a law to legislate behavior in every respect. Nobody would want to live in a country like that and it wouldn't be free by any definitin of the word.
Let it be legal, and let's all voice our opinion of people who do that. That's the American Way.
Which is kind of why I'm mad at the "Patriot Act".
..it's not going to stop anyone from burning a flag! more than anything else, it will make that act of [defiance/hatred/etc] all the more piquant and stinging, which is precisely what is desired by those who burn the flag.
Darn straight...you can't make a law to legislate behavior in every respect. Nobody would want to live in a country like that and it wouldn't be free by any definitin of the word.
Let it be legal, and let's all voice our opinion of people who do that. That's the American Way.
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
Flag burning may be outlawed
Far Rider wrote: I respect the right of an indiviual to burn the flag of thier country as much as it bothers me....
Good for you! I agree, that's "freedom" in all it's glory, it's not easy all the time though, is it?
I think its Ironic too that the way to destroy a US flag properly is to burn it.
That's What I thought too, until I saw some veterans do the retirement ceremony, it's very dignified and respectful.. You feel good just watching it, and think about it, it's better than burying it, or cutting it up and throwing it in the trash isn't it?
I just don't get the point, they are burning the flag to protest the government that allows them the right to do it?
Yeah....the words, "misguided", "lost", and "delusional" come to mind. LOL!
So what's the big 'demonstration' about. It's like eating an ice cream infront of my dad when he told me I can have one. Big whoop! as my sister would say.
ROFL! Now..THAT's good comedy!
Good for you! I agree, that's "freedom" in all it's glory, it's not easy all the time though, is it?
I think its Ironic too that the way to destroy a US flag properly is to burn it.
That's What I thought too, until I saw some veterans do the retirement ceremony, it's very dignified and respectful.. You feel good just watching it, and think about it, it's better than burying it, or cutting it up and throwing it in the trash isn't it?
I just don't get the point, they are burning the flag to protest the government that allows them the right to do it?
Yeah....the words, "misguided", "lost", and "delusional" come to mind. LOL!
So what's the big 'demonstration' about. It's like eating an ice cream infront of my dad when he told me I can have one. Big whoop! as my sister would say.
ROFL! Now..THAT's good comedy!
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
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Accountable
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Flag burning may be outlawed
greydeadhead wrote: Okay. since burning the flag is considered freedom of speech.. one of your consitiutional rights.. I truely have to wonder....
If someone burned a bible or koran in a public display of protest, what would the reaction of the Christian and Muslim communities be... after all it is freedom of speech.. correct...
Would a person or group's reaction to a thing be a reason to make it illegal?? I don't think I need to write more to make my point, but will be happy to if needed.
If someone burned a bible or koran in a public display of protest, what would the reaction of the Christian and Muslim communities be... after all it is freedom of speech.. correct...
Would a person or group's reaction to a thing be a reason to make it illegal?? I don't think I need to write more to make my point, but will be happy to if needed.
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Accountable
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Flag burning may be outlawed
I heard a great statement on talk radio regarding this. People are so tied up with rights they forget the responsibilities that go with them.
We have the right to burn a flag; we have the responsibility to protect it. When we take away the right, we also take the responsibility.
We have the right to burn a flag; we have the responsibility to protect it. When we take away the right, we also take the responsibility.
Flag burning may be outlawed
Look at this, gang...
If you don't know where to properly deposit your worn American Flags, the VFW Post 664 and American Legion Post 63, have placed a mailbox in front of City Hall, 50 10th Street, to deposit your flag(s). They will dispose of them properly! If you cannot bring your worn flag in, please send them to
City of Clintonville
50 Tenth Street
Clintonville, WI 54929
and will place them in the mailbox for you!
If you don't know where to properly deposit your worn American Flags, the VFW Post 664 and American Legion Post 63, have placed a mailbox in front of City Hall, 50 10th Street, to deposit your flag(s). They will dispose of them properly! If you cannot bring your worn flag in, please send them to
City of Clintonville
50 Tenth Street
Clintonville, WI 54929
and will place them in the mailbox for you!
Flag burning may be outlawed
valerie wrote: Look at this, gang...
If you don't know where to properly deposit your worn American Flags, the VFW Post 664 and American Legion Post 63, have placed a mailbox in front of City Hall, 50 10th Street, to deposit your flag(s). They will dispose of them properly! If you cannot bring your worn flag in, please send them to
City of Clintonville
50 Tenth Street
Clintonville, WI 54929
and will place them in the mailbox for you!
Cool! There should be at least one of these in every city.
If you don't know where to properly deposit your worn American Flags, the VFW Post 664 and American Legion Post 63, have placed a mailbox in front of City Hall, 50 10th Street, to deposit your flag(s). They will dispose of them properly! If you cannot bring your worn flag in, please send them to
City of Clintonville
50 Tenth Street
Clintonville, WI 54929
and will place them in the mailbox for you!
Cool! There should be at least one of these in every city.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
Flag burning may be outlawed
I may be mistaken in what I say here, but it is my understanding that we do not burn worn out flags either in the United Kingdom or within any country of which Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is Head of State. I'm speaking here of the Union flag, of National flags, and most particularly (since they are much more venerated) Regimental or Naval Colours. Since the mid-nineteenth century we have laid up old flags and colours in those Church of England churches which have an association with the owner. There is a simple handing-over of a replacement for the one being retired, the laid up one is hung high over the pews, near the rafters, and it is never taken down again. I can think of many churches I've worshiped in which have had dozens of flags and colours unobtrusively hanging, reverently dusted by the cleaners each year, mostly threadbare. Many of them date from the Boer and World Wars.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Flag burning may be outlawed
Count me in too.
valerie wrote: I'm with flopstock on this one. One of the things our flag stands for
is your right to burn it. I say, let them. This is a great candidate for
BR's "I don't care" thread.
Don't give flag burners any air time. Majority rule, let all of us who
revere the flag and all it stands for do so at any and every
opportunity. So what if a few low-lifes want to burn it? They are
the lowest of the low.
I am proud to say I have the 48 star flag that was on my grandfather's
coffin.
My flag is a beautiful flag. Anyone who burns it can't REALLY hurt it
OR me. Too many other flags and other people to take a place for
freedom and the American way.
:yh_flag :yh_flag :yh_flag
valerie wrote: I'm with flopstock on this one. One of the things our flag stands for
is your right to burn it. I say, let them. This is a great candidate for
BR's "I don't care" thread.
Don't give flag burners any air time. Majority rule, let all of us who
revere the flag and all it stands for do so at any and every
opportunity. So what if a few low-lifes want to burn it? They are
the lowest of the low.
I am proud to say I have the 48 star flag that was on my grandfather's
coffin.
My flag is a beautiful flag. Anyone who burns it can't REALLY hurt it
OR me. Too many other flags and other people to take a place for
freedom and the American way.
:yh_flag :yh_flag :yh_flag
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Flag burning may be outlawed
spot wrote: I may be mistaken in what I say here, but it is my understanding that we do not burn worn out flags either in the United Kingdom or within any country of which Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is Head of State. I'm speaking here of the Union flag, of National flags, and most particularly (since they are much more venerated) Regimental or Naval Colours. Since the mid-nineteenth century we have laid up old flags and colours in those Church of England churches which have an association with the owner. There is a simple handing-over of a replacement for the one being retired, the laid up one is hung high over the pews, near the rafters, and it is never taken down again. I can think of many churches I've worshiped in which have had dozens of flags and colours unobtrusively hanging, reverently dusted by the cleaners each year, mostly threadbare. Many of them date from the Boer and World Wars.
I like that idea. I believe American flags of special significance are saved as well. Aren't the flags that were flown right after the 9/11 attacks still around? The one that the firefighters raised at the towers and the one at the Pentagon? :-3
I like that idea. I believe American flags of special significance are saved as well. Aren't the flags that were flown right after the 9/11 attacks still around? The one that the firefighters raised at the towers and the one at the Pentagon? :-3
Flag burning may be outlawed
Accountable wrote: I like that idea. I believe American flags of special significance are saved as well. Aren't the flags that were flown right after the 9/11 attacks still around? The one that the firefighters raised at the towers and the one at the Pentagon? :-3Neither, it would seem.
What may have been the Pentagon 9/11 flag was sold on eBay in March. "Seven days into the auction, Facchina [Construction Co.] posted a statement on its Web site saying that it had neither a crane nor a flag at the Pentagon on Sept. 11. Other workers on the scene have since stepped forward to say the same thing." - the letter of authenticity offered with the flag being signed by an employee of Facchina Construction Co., which rather nixes the provenance. Nobody else has stepped forward and claimed to hold either the real flag or even title to it.
The known owners of the Ground Zero flag in the firefighter photo announced earlier this month that the one returned to them by New York City administration was not the original. "The reason we came forward to say the flag was lost was so nobody could sell it on eBay," Dreifus said. "It belongs in a museum, where people can see it. Or it belongs downtown. I have absolutely no idea where it is."
There are about 20 known surviving examples of the "Stars and Stripes" dating to before 1815, the most well known of which is displayed at Fort Niagara in New York State, the oddest in the Bennington Museum, Vermont.
What may have been the Pentagon 9/11 flag was sold on eBay in March. "Seven days into the auction, Facchina [Construction Co.] posted a statement on its Web site saying that it had neither a crane nor a flag at the Pentagon on Sept. 11. Other workers on the scene have since stepped forward to say the same thing." - the letter of authenticity offered with the flag being signed by an employee of Facchina Construction Co., which rather nixes the provenance. Nobody else has stepped forward and claimed to hold either the real flag or even title to it.
The known owners of the Ground Zero flag in the firefighter photo announced earlier this month that the one returned to them by New York City administration was not the original. "The reason we came forward to say the flag was lost was so nobody could sell it on eBay," Dreifus said. "It belongs in a museum, where people can see it. Or it belongs downtown. I have absolutely no idea where it is."
There are about 20 known surviving examples of the "Stars and Stripes" dating to before 1815, the most well known of which is displayed at Fort Niagara in New York State, the oddest in the Bennington Museum, Vermont.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Flag burning may be outlawed
I think worn out flags that are flown at many establishments (outside of military/gov't) would probably quite often just be thrown in the trash without a thought, because they bought a new replacement. Not out of malice or anything, just because it's the standard "out with the old, in with the new", like replacing anything that has had it. Of course, I have not seen any surveys on this, so I'm only speculating.
Flag burning may be outlawed
Turbonium, check out www.flagkeepers.org. They have a place you can
report flags you see that are old and worn.
report flags you see that are old and worn.
Flag burning may be outlawed
posted by spot
I may be mistaken in what I say here, but it is my understanding that we do not burn worn out flags either in the United Kingdom or within any country of which Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is Head of State. I'm speaking here of the Union flag, of National flags, and most particularly (since they are much more venerated) Regimental or Naval Colours. Since the mid-nineteenth century we have laid up old flags and colours in those Church of England churches which have an association with the owner. There is a simple handing-over of a replacement for the one being retired, the laid up one is hung high over the pews, near the rafters, and it is never taken down again. I can think of many churches I've worshiped in which have had dozens of flags and colours unobtrusively hanging, reverently dusted by the cleaners each year, mostly threadbare. Many of them date from the Boer and World Wars.
Military colours are cherished but the flag itself is just a piece of cloth. I don't think anyone would bother if it was set fire to during a demonstration most people would just think a silly gesture.
I may be mistaken in what I say here, but it is my understanding that we do not burn worn out flags either in the United Kingdom or within any country of which Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is Head of State. I'm speaking here of the Union flag, of National flags, and most particularly (since they are much more venerated) Regimental or Naval Colours. Since the mid-nineteenth century we have laid up old flags and colours in those Church of England churches which have an association with the owner. There is a simple handing-over of a replacement for the one being retired, the laid up one is hung high over the pews, near the rafters, and it is never taken down again. I can think of many churches I've worshiped in which have had dozens of flags and colours unobtrusively hanging, reverently dusted by the cleaners each year, mostly threadbare. Many of them date from the Boer and World Wars.
Military colours are cherished but the flag itself is just a piece of cloth. I don't think anyone would bother if it was set fire to during a demonstration most people would just think a silly gesture.
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Lectronicman
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:48 am
Flag burning may be outlawed
Keep your eye on property rights.
This flag question is resolved easily. Everyone has the right to buy or weave and thus own a piece of cloth in the shape and design of an American flag (or in any other design) and to do with it what he wants. They can fly it, burn it, bury it, put it in the closet, wear it, whatever.
Flag laws are unjustifiable laws in violation of the rights of private property.
No one has the right to come up and burn my flag or yours. That is already illegal, not because a flag is being burned, but because this arsonist is burning someone elses property without their permission. He is violating our property rights. Problem solved!
And What about all those idiots that drape flags on their cars, subjecting them to grime and tearing in the wind, and then just leave them on their car, in deplorable condition? Isn't that flag desecration?
As a matter of fact, I think it may be flag desecration when Dubya puts one on his lapel.
(But that's just my opinion)
This flag question is resolved easily. Everyone has the right to buy or weave and thus own a piece of cloth in the shape and design of an American flag (or in any other design) and to do with it what he wants. They can fly it, burn it, bury it, put it in the closet, wear it, whatever.
Flag laws are unjustifiable laws in violation of the rights of private property.
No one has the right to come up and burn my flag or yours. That is already illegal, not because a flag is being burned, but because this arsonist is burning someone elses property without their permission. He is violating our property rights. Problem solved!
And What about all those idiots that drape flags on their cars, subjecting them to grime and tearing in the wind, and then just leave them on their car, in deplorable condition? Isn't that flag desecration?
As a matter of fact, I think it may be flag desecration when Dubya puts one on his lapel.
(But that's just my opinion)