Plenty

[Ted]

"It is easy enough to tell the poor to accept their poverty as God's will when you yourself have warm clothes and plenty of food and medical care and a roof over your head and no worry about the rent. But if you want them to believe you--try to share some of their poverty and see if you can accept it as God's will yourself!"

Thomas Merton

[Omni_Skittles]

I've been poor! i have felt the poverty. But i would still never say to accept your poverty~

[chonsigirl]

I think we must accept whatever our position is in life. Yes, I think many of us have been very poor at one time or another, and I would never tell them to accept it. I would assist them to try to make things better for themselves and their loved ones.

But some things you must accept-whether you like it or not. I must accept how my husband is, try to make some things better, but know most things will never be again.

[Ted]

Omni:-6

Unfortunately some do. That is the attitude of many. Just accept your poverty as the will of God they are told.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Benjamin]

I don't know anyone who goes around telling poor people they have to accept their poverty as God's will, although it's probable more difficult today for anyone to get out of poverty than it's been in the past, considering the high cost of living and education. It used to be that the working class was the middle class. Now the working class is the working poor.

[Ted]

jester:-6

What does the average human need to live a decent life in a peaceful society? What does the average person in Nigeria need. Shell takes the oil and returns little money for its natural resources. Corruption? Sure their is and Shell is helping it along.

What does the average human need? $10 000, 20 000, 30 000.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

jester:-6

If a child is born and raised in a pig pen he may be happy with that. Is it morally right that you or I can live comfortably and not show the child of the pig pen a better life? Is it morally right?

Shalom

Ted:-6

[theia]

Jester;788621 wrote: Ive met folks that live in grass huts and eat small fowl and roots and never knew they were 'poor', to them they have thier needs met and are fine. Morality had nothing to do with it.


Excellent point, Jester and it has made me think...

At present I have sufficient to pay my rent, feed myself, run a car etc. But, like everyone, however wealthy or poor, I don't know what the future will bring...so there is no security in what I possess or don't possess. The only "real" security I feel is when I have one of those moments when I know in my heart that "all is well." And these moments have nothing to do with material possessions.

[Ted]

Interesting. What about the millions, if not over a billion around the world that do not have enough every day of their lives. Are they to accept that as God's will?

It is very easy to sit back and judge others and say "If he's to damned lazy to work let him/her starve. That is a judgment based on ignorance.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Accountable]

Okay, Ted, there's the bite you've been casting for. I'm betting it took longer than you expected. Go ahead and impose your judgment as you tell her she's wrong to judge. Frankly it seems out of your character.



Me? I never tell people their plight is God's will. If a person is happy with their situation in life I celebrate with them. I've eaten some really interesting things that way. If a person is unhappy, with their situation, I try to help them find an option or two they can try to get themselves out. Of course, I can't and don't celebrate or collaborate with everyone - only those I have time and inclination for.



I must say that most people I've met who see themselves as poor are often in very similar circumstances as those who are happy, they just think themselves helpless. It's attitude that's different -- spirit, outlook, self-esteem call it what you will. Not much to be done about that without some serious one-on-one work.



When you talk about the millions and billions, I s'pose you're proposing we give money to someone to throw at the problem? Who would you suggest?



I help as many as I can, such as when I volunteered to help the Katrina evacuees. Now, as a teacher, I see myself in the job of prevention. I must say I've never met anyone starving to death on the street unable to help themselves. If I did, I would feed them; but feeding them is not truly helping them out of their situation but only helping them stay in it. They have to rise above it themselves. That they do so, I believe, is God's will.

[Benjamin]

Some people have problems that prevent them from holding down a job.

[Ted]

Acc:-6

I am truly sorry if you took that as personal as that was not the intent. There are those who take that attitude. I have not only seen them I have met them. I was judging no one on this issue. I don't know any of you personally beyond the forum. Perhaps I was not clear enough.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

JAB:-6

As per my post above to ACC. I was not talking in any personal way and if you took it that way I truly apologize. It was not the intent. Once again perhaps I was not clear enough.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Accountable]

Benjamin;790119 wrote: Some people have problems that prevent them from holding down a job.
That's why I used the term "most."

[Accountable]

Ted;790125 wrote: Acc:-6



I am truly sorry if you took that as personal as that was not the intent. There are those who take that attitude. I have not only seen them I have met them. I was judging no one on this issue. I don't know any of you personally beyond the forum. Perhaps I was not clear enough.



Shalom

Ted:-6
I didn't think you referred to me; I thought you referred to JAB. But you've addressed it already.

[Ted]

What I am getting at is that not only here in my country but in most around the world there are folks who do not have enough beyond a bare existence. There are so many in this world who are in this position and yet countries burn unsold grain. We are now turning grain into fuel while thousands are starving. Yet in many countries there are those who are living way above what is beyond being comfortable. I see this as systemic injustice and unless those of us who care work towards some kind of solution such injustice will continue.

In this case I speak mostly of Canada because I know it best.

Without going into detail my wife and I often do with less in order to see that those who have too little get a little more.

Of course there will always be those who appear not to want to work but live off others but we really don't know their personal situation: lazy? Mentally ill? Lack of knowledge and understanding? Lack of education? Who am I to judge?

If we are Christians we are obligated to do what we can in order to make life better for those less fortunate than we are.

None of this, is of course new. It has been around for thousands of years. The rich get richer and the poor poorer. Jesus was absolutely opposed to this situation. It was and is an systemic injustice.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

JAB:-6

Thanks.

I do get very passionate about systemic injustice. Here we often hear the term legislated poverty. Governments promise to eliminate poverty but never carry through. I believe if they did they would find that many other things like policing etc. would in the end cost less.

I'm sure there are a few government ministers who know my name as well. They really don't like the questions I ask.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Accountable]

Ted;790138 wrote: JAB:-6



Thanks.



I do get very passionate about systemic injustice. Here we often hear the term legislated poverty. Governments promise to eliminate poverty but never carry through. I believe if they did they would find that many other things like policing etc. would in the end cost less.



I'm sure there are a few government ministers who know my name as well. They really don't like the questions I ask.



Shalom

Ted:-6I believe you will find that no matter how much the poorest of us have, they will still be the poorest of us. Therefore, they will still be in poverty, compared to the rest of our population. What we call poverty-stricken here in North America is rich, fat, and lazy in most other parts of the world. We've lost perspective as a society, imo.

[Accountable]

Jester;790196 wrote: Systemic injustice? Hmmmm, trying to wrap my brain around that.



I grew up outside a small town, (500 population when I was about Jr. High school, a mere 20,000 in the whole county the year I was born.) That town and the other four around did not have a hungry person in it, nor anyone who lacked clothing or a roof over thier heads. And nobody went ot a government agency for help either, there were two churches that met the needs of all the poeple, if there was a need.



The systemic injustice, if I am viewing your meaning correctly Ted, is that the governments take over for what the church should be doing.



Put the burden for care back on the churches and you'll solve that problem.:yh_clap :yh_clap :yh_clap :yh_clap



Yup!Yup!Yup! Unfortunately, even our churches are trying to push their responsibilities off on the government. Rather than getting politically active they should be building neighborhood coalitions to clean up their towns and neighborhoods. They need to get out of Washington's business and get back to their own work. Go back to gathering charitable contributions instead of writing gov't grants for tax dollars.

[Ted]

No one has yet addressed, in any way, the poverty found in third world countries. The fact of the matter is that churches cannot do it all. Governments, yes governments are in the only position to make the biggest impact.

Our local church does all it can both locally and in third world countries. We simply can do no more.

I am reminded of the parable of the good Samaritan. Samaritans and Jews hated each

[nvalleyvee]

Ted;792345 wrote: No one has yet addressed, in any way, the poverty found in third world countries. The fact of the matter is that churches cannot do it all. Governments, yes governments are in the only position to make the biggest impact.

Our local church does all it can both locally and in third world countries. We simply can do no more.

I am reminded of the parable of the good Samaritan. Samaritans and Jews hated each


Poverty is found in third world countries because most of them are dictatorships. They care NOT what happens to the people they govern and even if they did - they have robbed the country to enrich their personal wealth. If if fact they cared about the people they would and could find a way to support the way their citizens make a living. In this way - the poor would become healthier and wealthier.

[Accountable]

NV's right. Probably the most charitable thing to do would be to assassinate the dictator.



Whatever happened to sustenance farming?

[nvalleyvee]

Accountable;792354 wrote: NV's right. Probably the most charitable thing to do would be to assassinate the dictator.



Whatever happened to sustenance farming?


LMAO - I did not say assassinate the dictator!! - but I would not be opposed to it. I said sustenance farming and marketing and getting the economy up and running before the ass hole in charge can take all the money would be a good way to start.

[Ted]

No one has yet addressed, in any way, the poverty found in third world countries. The fact of the matter is that churches cannot do it all. Governments, yes governments are in the only position to make the biggest impact.

Our local church does all it can both locally and in third world countries. We simply can do no more.

I am reminded of the parable of the good Samaritan. Samaritans and Jews hated each other. The message is quite clear. We are obligated to help those in need.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

jester:-6

Perhaps you should re-read the Bible. We are obligated to help anyone in need not just the person living next door. Jesus was concerned about all of the oppressed and the downtrodden and the rich lording it over the poor. We are to do justice, loved kindness and walk humbly with our God. Isaiah 58 and Matt. 22 and Matt 25 clearly point out what we are to do and it involves more than just those nearby.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

Acc.

Subsistence farming in a land suffering unparalleled drought, with people who cannot afford the seed let alone find the water they need. That is a rather interesting suggestion.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

Nvalleyvee:-6

I don't disagree that dictators are part of the problem and so are rebels and terrorists. However, this does not absolve us of the obligation to help in any way we can.

I think part of the problem also is that places like Darfur don't have any oil or expensive minerals that others would like to take.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

jester:-6

I think in many ways we agree. However, I disagree that the gospel comes before food. When a person is deathly hungry s/he is not interested in the gospel they are trying to survive. A clear example is to be found in Micah 6:8; Isaiah 58; Matt. 22 and Matt 25.

I'm not suggesting that we breed dependence. We are obligated to get these people on their feet and see that they have the wherewithal to make a go of it. ACTS [African Technical Survey' is an organization that our church supports. They do their best to help towns and villages get fresh water etc. The go to Africa to help build a sustainable society.

I also disagree that the governments should not be involved. They have the wherewithal to get things moving and the money to make a big difference; just build a few less missiles and bombs. The fact is that 5% of the money spent on arms yearly would feed all of the starving children in the world for a year. M. Fox. To ignore this suffering is a sin of omission. It is tantamount to murder.

I can also agree that we must help those closest but this does not absolve us of responsibility for any other human beings in need anywhere in the world. This is not one countries job but the job of all people who have what it takes to help no matter where they are.

The "Good News of the Kingdom" is an egalitarian state where each gets according to his needs. This does not mean that all people will have the same bank account but it does mean a more equitable sharing of the world's resources. It is also a kingdom of justice [not retributive but distributive'. It is a kingdom where God, by whatever name, rules. This leads to the above mentioned scriptures.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

jesster:-6

Hang on! I tend to agree. But I do think the governments could do more to support such activities. We are going to ruin our reputations you realize.LOL.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Accountable]

Ted;792416 wrote: Acc.



Subsistence farming in a land suffering unparalleled drought, with people who cannot afford the seed let alone find the water they need. That is a rather interesting suggestion.



Shalom

Ted:-6
Point made about the drought, but not every poverty-stricken area is also drought-stricken. Seed is free. It comes from the raw vegetables you eat. Dandylion and other wild plants make very nutritious meals. Snares are also free for the making, and poor people tend to help each other learn skills like that.



Poverty -- real, killer poverty -- comes from government interference.

Our aboriginal citizenry, the native Americans, never knew poverty until coralled on poor land by government. They lost their skills of survival because government "gave" them all they needed for subsistance. Thank God some of the tribes are shaking off their imposed addiction and have started making their own way through casinos, etc.



The main reason so many are starving in third-world nations is because governments, dictators or not, think they know best how to take care of the people, and have convinced their populations of that for long enough that they have lost their knowledge and/or drive to take care of themselves. Our governments, also pompously celerating their largesse, throw money like Daddy Warbucks. Millions upon Millions! Now look at the dictators all fat & happy as their people still starve.



Government is the problem, not the solution.

[Bryn Mawr]

JAB;792419 wrote: Ted, do you really think we can help everyone?


Yes.

If the "first world" collectively halved their defence budget then there would be enough with money left over.

Remember St. Peter's Pence?

Apply that to every countries GDP and imagine what we could do with the result.

[Accountable]

Bryn Mawr;793661 wrote: Yes.



If the "first world" collectively halved their defence budget then there would be enough with money left over.



Remember St. Peter's Pence?



Apply that to every countries GDP and imagine what we could do with the result.
Money won't fix it. Money hasn't fixed it over the generations we've tried. You want to halve something? Halve the number of fighting troops and send the rest down there with training in farming, hunting, irrigation, carpentry, etc etc etc. Of course you'll first have to take out the "GOVERNMENT" that's preventing help from getting to the helpless in the first place. But once you do that, they'll be flooded in money and assistance, so the halving won't be needed.

[Bryn Mawr]

Accountable;794000 wrote: Money won't fix it. Money hasn't fixed it over the generations we've tried. You want to halve something? Halve the number of fighting troops and send the rest down there with training in farming, hunting, irrigation, carpentry, etc etc etc. Of course you'll first have to take out the "GOVERNMENT" that's preventing help from getting to the helpless in the first place. But once you do that, they'll be flooded in money and assistance, so the halving won't be needed.


Of course halving the defence budget implies halving the troop count but the money is essential in helping to provide the infrastructure required for a civilised and self sustaining life.

As for insisting that the only way to help the people of a country is to destroy their government first - such a sweeping statement does not even deserve a response.