Affirmative Action

VoiceOfReason · Post by **VoiceOfReason** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:08 pm

My first post...apologies if this should be in politics, but I think I'll find people more likely to have an intelligent discussion and less likely to launch into polemic rants here. (I hope I hope....)

I am looking for a discussion of the pros and cons of affirmative action. My current (admittedly knee-jerk) opinion is that we should bend all of our efforts to making the rules color-blind and fair to everyone, then enforce those rules VIGOROUSLY, as in, find someone illegally discriminating and land on them with both feet...and a buick.

Please no cut-and-paste dogma. Only people who can think and type at the same time. I don't mean to suggest that something is invalid if it's been said before, but please believe what you post.

chrisb84uk · Post by **chrisb84uk** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:12 pm

Welcome to FG! :-6

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:18 pm

So are you pro affirmative action?

Chezzie · Post by **Chezzie** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:20 pm

I think if you rob a house...you go to jail.....period and no parole for good behaviour, you do the time the judge sentenced you to.

If you rape........Life Imprisonment...........LIFE....FOREVER...

None of this 6 months but only serve 3 months if good behaviour...wtf!!! Its a punishment......Make them pay the full sentence.

To me the government is more interested in money than lives.

If you rob a bank or get caught for fraud etc... most likely you will serve more than someone who has taken a life, like say a drink driver or reckless driving.

Its ludicress to put money before a life but they do.

Too much red tape in this country, too much paper filling out and not enough hands on in my opinion.

Think I went slightly off topic, but not polemic :-6:-6:-6

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:21 pm

rjwould;785819 wrote: Nah! He types like a conservative...

I've read the post 3 times now and still not sure what his opinion is. Maybe I should just go watch spongebob, i think he's on right now.

Chezzie · Post by **Chezzie** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:23 pm

Sheryl;785823 wrote: I've read the post 3 times now and still not sure what his opinion is. Maybe I should just go watch spongebob, i think he's on right now.

Well I had to ask hubby to translate it for me, I couldnt grasp what he/she was asking us for lol...Hope hubby was right lol :wah::wah::wah:

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:30 pm

I can't decide if this creature is jonesjones or Yzgi..neither of whom one would expect to find anywhere near this kind of post...:p

Then i saw rj was here and the directive on who and how to post just stinks to high heaven of something he would like to do....:wah:

edit:now rjs gone and voice of reason is back.... coincidence or conspiracy...you make the call...:p

VoiceOfReason · Post by **VoiceOfReason** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:34 pm

RJWould: Bite your tongue!

I'm an independent through and through, and I hold opinions that span both sides of the "stuck-in-the-box" pre-packaged political identities....it just depends on the subject. To clarify:

I think I'm anti-affirmative action...because I think we should not use race, origin, religion or any of several other characteristics as a basis for granting rights, making employment or admissions decisions, or just about anything other than mating selection. (I like redheads) However, I don't feel like I have a complete picture of the issues yet, hence my plea for your contributions to my education, which I accept gratefully.

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:43 pm

Affirmative Action has served it's purpose.

When it was introduced it was a healthy move against racism.

Now it's only abused.

The idea of reparation has almost died out.

It's time for affirmative action to go as well.

What's next? Affirmative Action for illegal immigrants?

How bout this white man can find a f'in job.

:-5

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:45 pm

In my particular business I don't need the government to tell me who to hire. I have had great black people work for me and sorry white people. As long as they do the job they are hired for, I couldn't give a rats ass what color or nationality they are, but I sure don't need any regulations telling me what percentage of whatever nationality or race I need to have employed.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:48 pm

flopstock;785833 wrote: I can't decide if this creature is jonesjones or Yzgi..neither of whom one would expect to find anywhere near this kind of post...:p

Then i saw rj was here and the directive on who and how to post just stinks to high heaven of something he would like to do....:wah:

edit:now rjs gone and voice of reason is back.... coincidence or conspiracy...you make the call...:p
Hey!!! I resemble that remark..

VoiceOfReason · Post by **VoiceOfReason** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:27 pm

OK, but how does it help to FORCE an employer to hire people based on characteristics that have nothing to do with being able to do the job? Why not expend that energy to stomp vigorously on the people who do that very same thing for their own f'ed up reasons? I mean, I can kinda see the other side of the argument...that this is supposed to balance the scales...but doesn't that assume that we are just going to accept prejudice and discrimination as an unchangeable part of American life? Shouldn't we be crying out against such obvious stupidity instead of trying to find a way to work around it?

VoiceOfReason · Post by **VoiceOfReason** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:58 pm

Quotas are more easily measurable than people's intent. I guess I can see that point. It's very difficult to prove discrimination, but it's pretty easy to count heads. Still, it feels...icky. hmmmm....I'm gonna have to chew on this....

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:43 pm

rjwould;785868 wrote: I'd like to agree..We are certainly a lot further along these days, but I don't know if we are there yet...

The fact that a large number of Americans finally seems comfortable enough electing either a female or person of color to the presidency speaks volumes..

As if there's a choice?

VoiceOfReason;785913 wrote: Quotas are more easily measurable than people's intent. I guess I can see that point. It's very difficult to prove discrimination, but it's pretty easy to count heads. Still, it feels...icky. hmmmm....I'm gonna have to chew on this....

Hard to digest when politics are involved.

I would pass on the political aspects and go for humanity.

Does being a minority make you better fit for the position?

Now there's correctness for you.

Benjamin · Post by **Benjamin** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:43 pm

Affirmative action is bad. Period. Except for sometimes when it's good.

Post by **spot** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:01 pm

JacksDad;785953 wrote: As if there's a choice?If course there is. Vote for the male WASP when the election comes round. I expect he'll be the Republican candidate.

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:47 pm

spot;785964 wrote: If course there is. Vote for the male WASP when the election comes round. I expect he'll be the Republican candidate.

There's a Republican candidate?

Post by **spot** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:52 pm

rjwould;785994 wrote: He's not extreme enough for you? Too willing to negotiate for your taste?
I have a theory: Cheney will have Bush-43 assassinated at the Republican Convention and deliver a prepared "impromptu" eulogy over the body of his Commander in Chief rather like Marc Anthony over Julius Caesar, to be immediately selected by unanimous acclaim as the Republican candidate regardless of the primaries and to go on to a landslide victory in November. How's that for thriller-writing?

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:56 pm

rjwould;785994 wrote: He's not extreme enough for you? Too willing to negotiate for your taste?

Wow! You have me pegged!

Pull you're pants up wouldya?

spot;786019 wrote: I have a theory: Cheney will have Bush-43 assassinated at the Republican Convention and deliver a prepared "impromptu" eulogy over the body of his Commander in Chief rather like Marc Anthony over Julius Caesar, to be immediately selected by unanimous acclaim as the Republican candidate regardless of the primaries and to go on to a landslide victory in November. How's that for thriller-writing?

I like!

Maybe they can just go quail hunting together!

Post by **spot** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:34 pm

rjwould;786025 wrote: Sounds good..But where would our Octavian(sp?) come from?

He's flexing his biceps in California just waiting for the phone to ring and his moment of destiny to be announced.

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:47 pm

spot;786048 wrote: He's flexing his biceps in California just waiting for the phone to ring and his moment of destiny to be announced.

Nononononononono.

It's Condoleeza.

How's THAT for affirmative action.

Much better than Christine Whitman as head of the EPA.

Now that was funny.:yh_rotfl

See! I'm still on subject!

RJ is acting gay.

Again.

VoiceOfReason · Post by **VoiceOfReason** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:00 pm

OK...so here's how I'm feeling about it now:

Illegal discrimination is very hard to effectively police, and way too vulnerable to false accusations...so instead we have quotas. It's kind of like responding to a series of shootings (of one group by another group) by going out and randomly shooting members of the other group, and calling that justice, but nobody's found a better way. I'm getting depressed. Who wants to go to the bar?:-1

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:35 pm

VoiceOfReason;786071 wrote: OK...so here's how I'm feeling about it now:

Illegal discrimination is very hard to effectively police, and way too vulnerable to false accusations...so instead we have quotas. It's kind of like responding to a series of shootings (of one group by another group) by going out and randomly shooting members of the other group, and calling that justice, but nobody's found a better way. I'm getting depressed. Who wants to go to the bar?:-1

Damn.

Just got back.

You need to call earlier.

Illegal discrimination is more nepotism than affirmative action.

Or am I being too naive?

Post by **jones jones** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:58 pm

flopstock;785833 wrote: I can't decide if this creature is jonesjones or Yzgi..neither of whom one would expect to find anywhere near this kind of post...:p

Then i saw rj was here and the directive on who and how to post just stinks to high heaven of something he would like to do....:wah:

edit:now rjs gone and voice of reason is back.... coincidence or conspiracy...you make the call...:p

I can't decide if this creature is jonesjones ....

jeez ... thanks very much ...

-1

Jj

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:35 am

rjwould;786083 wrote: It seems to be one of those pendulum swinging issues. It was so long on one side and as JD suggested earlier, has almost completed its swing to the other side...Now it just needs to settle in the middle.

When you think about it, our society has come a long way in a relatively short time...We have been correcting a huge wrong, and we are doing a good job at it...The fact that no one has been willing to lay down and die on the issue is important..

Affirmative action, when seen as it really was designed to work is one of liberalisms finest accomplishments....

Is there a "side" RJ?

That's racist in itself.

I would like to think that we are equal and farm out tech support to the cheapest bidder.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:37 pm

VoiceOfReason;785888 wrote: OK, but how does it help to FORCE an employer to hire people based on characteristics that have nothing to do with being able to do the job? Why not expend that energy to stomp vigorously on the people who do that very same thing for their own f'ed up reasons? I mean, I can kinda see the other side of the argument...that this is supposed to balance the scales...but doesn't that assume that we are just going to accept prejudice and discrimination as an unchangeable part of American life? Shouldn't we be crying out against obvious stupidity instead of trying to find a way to work around it?

Its all Ive got. Go away !

VoiceOfReason · Post by **VoiceOfReason** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:21 am

Nomad;787112 wrote: Its all Ive got. Go away !

Smile when you say that, pilgrim.

Also...lest anyone is really wondering....I'm completely new here. No mask...just a guy who has masochistic urges to dissect topics that make my brain hurt....hopefully becoming wiser in the process, but who knows, eh?

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:10 pm

VoiceOfReason;787840 wrote: Smile when you say that, pilgrim.

Also...lest anyone is really wondering....I'm completely new here. No mask...just a guy who has masochistic urges to dissect topics that make my brain hurt....hopefully becoming wiser in the process, but who knows, eh?
Dang and I had you pegged as the Lone Ranger..

Stick with me pal and you will become wiser than you can even comprehend. (ya might even be able to decipher Spot and Coberst posts):wah:

freetobeme · Post by **freetobeme** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:30 am

Affirmative action is just another form of racism. People should be judged on their merits and qualifications, not race. In fact, I believe in Europe they call it 'positive discrimination'.

There's also the issue of AC in college admissions, should the college fill quotas based on race - IMO - no as it usually caps the numbers for another group.

http://www.caglepost.com/column/Larry+E ... uotas.html

Yet when it comes to colleges and universities admitting Asian-American students, this is, in effect, exactly what is happening. Because of the superior performance of Asian students on high school grades and pre-college aptitude tests, many colleges and universities, through unannounced policies, place these "minority students" at the back of the line.

fuscia · Post by **fuscia** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:39 am

some random thoughts...

i see affirmative action as being a well intended but unfair notion. as a correction, it fails as it creates a new unfairness.

as restitution, it only benefits new hires.

once an employer has met his quotta, can he then go back to hiring nothing but fat, white guys?

geraldine ferraro seems to think women belong higher on the list of affirmative action priorities than black men.

isn't basing a hiring decision on race, no matter how positive, still racism?

(sorry if any of this is reptition of that which has already been posted. i'm new here and am somewhat overwhelmed by the volume of forums.)

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:31 am

The biggest harm "affirmative action" does is against the very people it claims to help. Under such a program, if a person of a minority group gets a promotion, nobody can really say that that person was truly the most qualified for the job ... not even the promotee. That seed of doubt will always linger.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:00 pm

I don't think people need to work in a bigoted company anymore, with extremely rare exceptions that I'm sure exist but can't think of. If they find themselves in such a situation, they can always walk. If they feel they can't, I respectfully suggest they need to think more outside the box.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:00 pm

I feel affirmative action was a huge mistake

and created Racism - or I should say contributed to the existing hatred between people.

rj - sorry I didn't mean to throw your other thread, I didn't realize this thread existed.

Patsy