Letter From An Atheist

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:18 pm

BHughesNC;777140 wrote: First, let me say the letter was posted to the Christianity forum because it is intended to educate Christians as to the way some atheists feel about Christians that want to just feel secure in their faith while others (IMHO) die and go to hell. We, if we believe what we preach should be shouting it from the roof tops.

Second, it was not a plant to get attention from other atheists. Although I am glad it did.

Just to clear up a minor matter while you're preparing, I suggest we go back to the wording of the original post to decide the truth of those points.If you are reading this and are an atheist I want to tell you now that I do care about YOU. I do not want YOU to go to hell.Now, you can say that's intended for consumption by other Christians all you want, but I find it very hard to believe. It wasn't a plant to get attention from atheists? Seriously?

Chezzie · Post by **Chezzie** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:31 pm

spot;777423 wrote: Just to clear up a minor matter while you're preparing, I suggest we go back to the wording of the original post to decide the truth of those points.If you are reading this and are an atheist I want to tell you now that I do care about YOU. I do not want YOU to go to hell.Now, you can say that's intended for consumption by other Christians all you want, but I find it very hard to believe. It wasn't a plant to get attention from atheists? Seriously?

thats also the way I read it...........oh oh I agreed with Spot

:-2:-3

BHughesNC · Post by **BHughesNC** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:00 pm

spot;777161 wrote: My argument with you, on the other hand, is that you repudiated my Christian credentials earlier in the thread by describing me as a Christian in inverted commas. I utterly refute that insult. The god you try to describe is an evil malignant warping of the Christian message and nobody should be influenced by your point of view. Nothing is more harmful to Christianity than this so-called evangelism you're attempting. Christianity is a wonderful gift to the world, it is a way to approach God that is meaningful and deep but it doesn't map in the slightest with what you're trying to portray.spot;777161 wrote:

I do hope you're interested enough or committed enough to seek common ground between these two poles of Christianity. You came here, you had an agenda that brought you here, let's try to bring it to a conclusion. We might both benefit in the process.

Maybe we can find some common ground if I knew your basis for the Christianity you define. Christianity is not the gift to the world, it is Jesus the Christ who is God's Gift to the world.

From Wikipedia

"Christianity is a monotheistic[1]religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as recounted in the New Testament.[2]

Its followers, known as Christians, believe Jesus to be the Son of God and the Messiah (or Christ) prophesied in the Old Testament, the part of their scriptures they have in common with Judaism.[3] To Christians, Jesus Christ is not merely a teacher and the model of a pious life but the revealer of God, the mediator of salvation and the saviour who suffered, died and was resurrected in order to bring about salvation from sin for all.[4] Christians maintain that Jesus ascended into heaven and most denominations teach that Jesus will judge the living and the dead, granting everlasting life to his followers. The "good news" of Jesus' ministry is called the Gospel."

Jesus Himself sent His disciples to evangelize the world.

I am not a Christian because I want some form of religion to follow. I am a Christian because I believe that Jesus did exactly what the bible says and the above definition describes.

I agree that Christianity (if you define that as following the teachings of Christ) is a way to approach God that is meaningful and deep, beause Jesus said the only way to the Father is through Him.

I did come here with an agenda, and that agenda is to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, died for sinners, ressurected to give those who believe everlasting life. Salvation would not be "good news" if there were nothing to be saved from.

Ray Comfort is extreme but isn't everyone that is dedicated to a sincere belief? Seems like I have heard some pretty extreme responses to this post.

I did refutiate your Christian credentials just as you do "mine". I have never heard anyone wear the name and say basically (the way I took it) that if there is a judgment day as described in the bible that they would side with Satan (not exact quote)

I hope this thread will die soon. :-5

I honestly did not direct it "at" atheists as I said. Did I think that some would chance upon this post? Of course! All I was trying to say about that part of my post is that "I do care". If atheists truly feel the way that letter says about Christians I want those people to know I am not as that letter describes. If you don't need me to care, or want me to care that's up to you.

Unless you have specific comments to the post in general let's move on. If anyone wants to continue the discussion feel free to email me directly. That will get this off the board.

Peace

Bobby

Richard Bell · Post by **Richard Bell** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:05 pm

Ray Comfort is extreme but isn't everyone that is dedicated to a sincere belief?

You got that right. Sadly, the daily news is full of the latest atrocities carried out in the name of a sincere belief by extremists.

I hope this thread will die soon.

Will it go to heaven ?

BHughesNC · Post by **BHughesNC** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:26 pm

Richard Bell;777914 wrote:

Will it go to heaven ?

It will have to we have argued "bon sang" out of it:-5

Bobby

Post by **spot** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:35 am

BHughesNC;777851 wrote: I did refutiate your Christian credentials just as you do "mine". I have never heard anyone wear the name and say basically (the way I took it) that if there is a judgment day as described in the bible that they would side with Satan (not exact quote)It seems clear to me that I've not repudiated your Christian identity at all. I've bewailed it, I've thrown my arms in the air in annoyance and frustration, but I've not thought for a moment (much less said) that you're not a Christian, it's obvious that you're a Christian. Where on earth do you get this idea that I don't regard you as a Christian? Of course you're a Christian. The beliefs you hold about Christianity should be rejected, your ideas are completely at odds with the teachings of Jesus, your notion of salvation is entirely orthodox and damning, you're as Christian a poster as I ever hope to see. You need to be corrected, with kindness if possible but corrected regardless before you pollute some innocent passer-by's mind and wreck the life of everyone who knows him.

Christianity completely redefined the conception of God. Until Christianity turned up there was no suggestion that God was in any way good. God being good is a central message of the religion. The relationship between God and man is also completely redefined by the startling and new message that someone who is completely human can also be God.

Christianity has had to fight for two millennia with the internal inconsistency of recognizing that God is good while at the same time trying to cling onto the old belief that God is all-powerful. The repetitive discussion of free will is the consequence of that inconsistency. God, we argue, is self-constrained in order that his creation can grow without compulsion. As an argument it stinks, and it stinks because it holds no water. It exists as an argument because some Christians can't ditch this notion that God is all-powerful.

It may well offend you but, as a Christian, I don't regard God as all-powerful at all. If I did I'd regard him as evil. That's why I say that if your image of God turns out to be right then I'll turn my back on him and walk to hell with my head held high, because I'll be a better man than he is. Any all-powerful deity who can stand back and not intervene over - to take a recent example - the quarter of a million deaths in the Boxing Day tsunami of 2004 is demonic. As a Christian I'm compelled to believe that such a God can't exist.

If it's the case that God is not all-powerful then the bible, while inspired, isn't capable of literalist interpretation. It's a fallible work. I find it tremendously inspiring and try hard to live my life by its core precepts of loving the Lord my God with all my heart, and with all my soul, and with all my might, and similarly to love my neighbour as myself. Nothing about regarding God as all-powerful. God, in my experience, is broken and hollow and powerless, that's the entire point of the imagery of the Cross. Loving that is a Christian reaction, worshipping it is idolatrous and pagan. Other religions worship their concept of God, Christians suffer with him.

Why on earth do you want this discussion off the board? We're meant to be claiming souls for God, remember? This is public witnessing we're engaged in.

Post by **spot** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:47 pm

BHughesNC;777851 wrote: Unless you have specific comments to the post in general let's move on. If anyone wants to continue the discussion feel free to email me directly. That will get this off the board.I do have specific comments but you seem wary about discussing matters. I'll try going a little further, shall I? See what happens?

The bible is a detailed description of a society's changing perception of the nature of God. It has the old folkstories from camp fire days, it has the post-exilic interpretation of pre-exilic history, it has the new Christian interpretation of the life and times of Jesus of Nazareth complete with yet more desert traditions.

The gospels tell of a man, Jesus, who preached a new morality. Jesus is someone who studied the old covenant and distilled what he saw to be the essence in order to bring society back on track, a society that had substituted forms of religion for practice. He struggles with God, he believes he can actually force God to bring in the end times by fulfilling prophesy. He deliberately forces the authorities to kill him as the Passover sacrifice believing that this is the magic formula that God can't resist obeying - the old idea that knowing God's name will give you the power of command.

And he wins, that's the amazing part of the story. His actions are so extreme that they inspire his followers, and those who hear the story, to spread his way of life across the world. Act this way and yours is the kingdom of heaven, with the emphasis on act. And then the arguments need clarifying. What if people act without doing it in the name of Jesus? Are they saved? No, says George, maybe they're good but they're not one of us and we're the ones defining salvation here. And so the pollution of the message starts. The opening of the heart is there, the inspiration of God is there, the rebirth in the Spirit is there, all experiential practices preached by Jesus, and on top of that a generation later comes the overlay of damned exclusivity.

The life of Jesus defines the nature of God for Christianity. It's a nature of self-sacrifice, of weakness, of an inability to apply force and a recognition that what Jesus is, God is. This is the complete abandonment of the all-powerful. This isn't a picture of a God demanding either worship or obedience. The meaning of the Kingdom of God and heaven and hell has been shifted by Christian orthodoxy over two millennia into power-imagery, force imagery. The words of Jesus, to whatever extent they're known, have a different implication in a Christian setting than they did to the man who said them. Unpeeling the layers of influence, the pollution, the power struggle, the killing, is hard work but it has to happen. We're back with substituted forms of religion instead of practice, we have an overlying tradition of mumbo-jumbo superstition obscuring the reality of the message and the top layer of that superstition is that God wants to be worshipped. God wants anything but. God wants to be enabled, to be allowed, to be realized.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:22 pm

BHughesNC;777922 wrote: It will have to we have argued "bon sang" out of it:-5

Bobby
Welcome to ForumGarden, where we cultivate and nurse every subject and debate from seed through flower unto compost, where it serves to help generate new thoughts.

Post by **spot** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:39 am

BHughesNC;777851 wrote: Maybe we can find some common ground if I knew your basis for the Christianity you define.That's a perfectly fair request. Would you rather I wait for a response or two first, or shall I just carry on as a monologue?

Maybe what we need is a revised vocabulary, one in which we come to some agreement of what words mean. We have no way of reconciling our points of view at the moment because we each mean something different by the words. Here's the stumbling blocks - God, heaven, hell, omnipotent, salvation - what you might call the specialist areas that Christianity ought to have at least recognized to be problematic. You say God and paint a picture, for example, and I look at the picture you've drawn and see the Devil. You paint salvation and I see death. You paint me a picture of heaven and hell and I'll guarantee that what I see is lies.

Before Jesus, the history of this society's understanding of God had never considered that God was anything but all-powerful. It recognized that this made God different, the only excuse it ever put into God's mouth is at the end of the book of Job (so long as you throw out that rubbish final chapter where Job gets all his goods and family back again, which is so obviously a tacked on watering down of the original problem). The excuse for the Old Testament omnipotent God is that Job can't understand God because he's never stood in God's shoes, it's God's party and if Job wants to live he can't try to choose the rules, God does. You remember that bit?Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm "Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself? Do you have an arm like God's, and can your voice thunder like his? Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor and clothe yourself in honor and majesty. Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at every proud man and bring him low, look at every proud man and humble him, crush the wicked where they stand. Bury them all in the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave. Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you."In other words he's saying he's neither good nor evil, he's God and you can't call him to account. Is anyone in the book of Job good? Yes, actually. Job is, and he turns out to be the hero even though he ends up sat broken on his ash-heap.

Jesus tried to force God to be good. Jesus wanted the Kingdom of God on earth and he thought he knew the rules of the game. Fulfill the prophesies and the end times will arrive, justice for all and finally an end to the cruelty and oppression. Jesus preached heaven on earth. Blessed are the poor and the persecuted for theirs is the kingdom of heaven - and note George getting in there with his pruning shears and his watering can, terrified of the consequences of letting Jesus have his way, making it only the poor in spirit - heaven keep us from actually doing something about poverty. Blessed are those who mourn, they're the ones whose spirit will be lifted. The hungry will be satisfied (again George is in there, no bread for the poor, these are those who hunger after righteousness, not those hungering after the means to life - I really don't like George, can you tell?). Blessed are the merciful, the peacemakers, the pure of heart, they'll get mercy shown them, they'll inherit the earth, they'll see God. God will finally be constrained to be good. The God who destroyed Job will finally lose his power to be anything but good. Jesus kills the omnipotent God, he becomes God, he provides the template for the new practice of the new religion. Society's understanding of God has to change because now God is good, God is powerless, God is broken. This is the gospel truth, the great news. Jesus killed God. It's the great Wizard of Oz moment. Drums rolled, the earth crashed, the veil of the Temple was torn top to bottom and there was no huge scary magician inside. The great I am that I am who'd spent all that time killing Israelites for breakfast wasn't real. Yes we have a God, he's hanging on that cross on the hill and his name is Jesus and he doesn't kill people. It's okay to love him.

Did Jesus actually know this when he killed God? Of course he didn't, he went to Golgotha thinking God was all-powerful but manipulable. What happened after - the resurrection, the empowerment, Pentecost - is when the old omnipotent God dies and Christianity begins and the kingdom of heaven arrives on earth.

Did any of it happen? It makes no difference. Maybe Jesus was historical, maybe Jesus was a story. The power of the good news is in its understanding, not in wand-waving. Mumbo-jumbo superstition is what the whited sepulchures was all about, the deadening power of belief or dogma over the life-giving power of faith. The exclusive power of the name of Jesus to save is superstition pasted into the bible as a priestly power play, the whole point of the life of Jesus is that power doesn't work. Meekness and humility and poverty and hunger work. Where's the meekness and humility and poverty and hunger in "no one comes to the Father except through me"? It's not there, is it. It's a perversion, the same way "salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved". Those are power-words added back post-Jesus by a church heirarchy anxious to keep its rule over the roost. The bible's the history of our society's understanding of God and what you see there is George trying to put the pieces of omnipotence back together. George and Jesus don't mix, they're oil and water.

BHughesNC · Post by **BHughesNC** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:34 am

spot;778906 wrote: That's a perfectly fair request. Would you rather I wait for a response or two first, or shall I just carry on as a monologue?

If any town refuses to accept you or refuses to listen to you, then leave that town. Shake their dust off your feet. This will be a warning to them."

After witnessing Jesus' experience in Nazareth, his disciples knew that not everyone would welcome their Master, much less his teaching. They were under no illusions. If they had any remaining doubts that they would meet resistance and rejection, his directions to them made it clear that they would. He told them what they were to take with them on their mission, how they were to conduct themselves, and what they were to do when their message was not received. However, their message was a vital one. They warned the people about the importance of turning from their sins. They displayed Jesus' power over the demonic world. They blessed many with healing. In other words, they extended their Master's message to many more people than Jesus could reach by himself. However, when they were rejected, they were to move on and do God's work where it was more warmly received, not wasting their time trying to convince those who would not believe.

I cannot, will not, do this any longer. In my opinion, and that's what "I" live by,is that I am right. According to the scripture I am not supposed to do this with you. Call me a quitter, hypocrit, mumbo-jumbo preaching whatever. I am shaking the dust off my feet and moving on.

Post by **spot** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:49 am

You are really convinced that you've got all the answers. You've really got yourself tricked into believing that you're 100% right. Well, let me ask you just one thing. Do you consider yourself to be compassionate of other humans? If you're right, as you say you are, and you believe that, then how can you sleep at night? When you speak with me, you are speaking with someone who you believe is walking directly into eternal damnation, into an endless onslaught of horrendous pain which your 'loving' god created, yet you stand by and do nothing.

Don't you dare come into my house like this another time and tell me I'm not a Christian.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:56 pm

Geronimo · Post by **Geronimo** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:03 pm

I knew that you were a compleete atheist Jerry. :p

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:45 pm

spot:-6

You've outdone yourself. Wow! I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said but as a fellow Christian pluralist I can most certainly agree with your central theme. Wonderful post.

The approach demonstrated in that supposed 'letter' is an abomination. I will go further. It is a sin.

BH:-6

No offense intended here at all. What you are preaching is the invention and fabrication that arose out of the reformation. Not all of the reformers followed the same line. It does not reflect either the early church of the apostles or the teachings of one Jesus of Nazareth. There are many excellent scholarly works out there available at any good bookstore that can confirm what I have said. I could suggest many but only if it is desired.

Yes, I am a very devout Christian who makes my Christianity a way of life and not just a Sunday or exclusivist faith.

May the peace of Christ go with you.

Shalom

Ted:-6

BHughesNC · Post by **BHughesNC** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:35 am

Ted;780595 wrote:

BH:-6

No offense intended here at all. What you are preaching is the invention and fabrication that arose out of the reformation. Not all of the reformers followed the same line. It does not reflect either the early church of the apostles or the teachings of one Jesus of Nazareth. There are many excellent scholarly works out there available at any good bookstore that can confirm what I have said. I could suggest many but only if it is desired.

Yes, I am a very devout Christian who makes my Christianity a way of life and not just a Sunday or exclusivist faith.

May the peace of Christ go with you.

Shalom

Ted:-6

I take no offense from your posistion. You really don't understand "what I am preaching". I preach that the love of Christ is for all mankind. His sacrifice was made not only as a payment of our sin debt, but as a way to show us, through His Spirit what real love is.

I did not invent this letter. I simply posted it as a way to stimulate conversation among Christians about the possibility that if there are unbelievers that feet the way this letter contends that we owe it to them to show them that it is our love for them that causes us concern.

Is it only our obligation to obtain knowledge to keep to ourselves or is it our place to question other Christians about their motivation.

Did not the scribes and Pharisees do this to Jesus? They had knowledge of the law, but used it to enhance religion and not God's plan for His Kingdom.

Was He really a heretic that needed to die for blaspheming the God they knew through their knowledge.

I am not a theologian, I am just a sinner saved by grace. All I have is my faith and I believe in my heart that will get me through.

I try to love all as Christ loved me. This post seems to portray me as an atheist basher. They have their right to believe or not to believe. My conviction is that my commision is to plant seeds of God's love.

Ray Comfort's approach is to scare the devil out of people and there may or may not be validity to that. I listened to his "Hell's Best Kept Secret" and thae statistics he states seems accurate on the surface. There are a lot of false professions of faith in my opinion, God is the judge, and I can see where if you teach that being a Christian is easy and that you can be saved and then just continue in sin is teaching a lie.

Saved By Grace through Faith that not of works lest any should boast.

Bobby

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:42 am

I'm a Christain myself and I can tell you from experience that many, many people think that their good works are going to get them into heaven. I've seen it a lot over the years at my church. They think they can rack up points it seems. When actually the way I was taught all you have to do to be saved is believe in Jesus, ask Him to forgive you of you sins and follow His example. My sunday school teacher always said the good works come along with being saved, once you're saved, you want to help people.

As for telling others about Jesus, as Christians it's our job. Before Jesus ascended back into Heaven He gave the disciples these instructions, it's called The Great Commision, it says to go out into all the corners of the earth and tell people about Him.

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:49 am

You don't think it's been bad for some people that Christians have gone out into their particular bit of the earth and told people about Him?

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:23 am

I think a lot of Christians have gone about it the wrong way. Some terrible things have been done over the years in the name of Christianity. It sad to see just how wrong some Christians ideas can be.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:31 am

spot;781868 wrote: You don't think it's been bad for some people that Christians have gone out into their particular bit of the earth and told people about Him?
There's never, ever harm in telling. It's all the other crap people do in conjuntion with he telling that's been so harmful. "Good works" they call it. :rolleyes:

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:37 am

Accountable;781890 wrote: There's never, ever harm in telling. It's all the other crap people do in conjuntion with he telling that's been so harmful. "Good works" they call it. :rolleyes:

I'm not convinced. Going to these quiet simple societies and telling them the good news results in Christianized simple societies which have been culture-shocked into alcoholism and apathy, diseased into a tenth of their former numbers, exploited for whatever labour they can be whipped into providing and robbed of the land they used to live on. But they do know the good news about Jesus. I wondered whether Hope thought that was a good deal or not. Personally I think the only good missionary's a dead missionary.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:51 am

As I said before many Christains throughout history have gone about it the wrong way. I've always believed that you're not going to get anywhere beating anybody over the head with a Bible. I live my life as an example, I try to be kind to everyone and judge no one, but I try to let it be know in my conversations with people that I go to church and I tell them my miracle baby story. Maybe they will see how happy I am and will be interested in knowing why.

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:53 am

That's witnessing, that's wonderful. It's not evangelizing. Evangelizing from a developed society to a primitive society is invariably utterly evil in its consequences.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:10 am

maybe the missionaries should try more witnessing. When Jesus would go into a new town He would go out somewhere and give a sermon, tell some stories, heal the sick and that would be the extent of His involvement. The word got around and mobs of people would follow Him to hear Him speak. It was as simple as that.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:25 am

rjwould;781896 wrote: When I was I Christian, I would tell it until you either got it or kicked me out of the house...

I think there can be harm in telling it when others don't want to hear it..
First, it's your behavior (being persistent or obnoxious, pick your term) that would have done the harm, if any, not the information you were trying to tell.

Second, that is nowhere near the scale I think Spot is alluding to.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:27 am

rjwould;781927 wrote: Kinda like Barack Obama today....HUH!!!...Interesting
That's a parallel as Swindon's roundabout. :wah:

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:19 am

.............

.................. :-2.. :wah:

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:48 am

rjwould;782018 wrote: How do you know that? I doubt you can read a situation from such a distance.....Neither you nor I know what is in an other persons mind.....What I said is based on actual events in which I was a participant.I suspect that Acc doubts you reduced your audience to culture-shocked apathetic alcoholism, spreading diseases to the extent that most of them died horrible premature deaths while robbing them blind into the bargain. Me, going on what I've seen since you arrived here, I'm not so sure.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:11 pm

BHughesNC;780745 wrote: I take no offense from your posistion. You really don't understand "what I am preaching". I preach that the love of Christ is for all mankind. His sacrifice was made not only as a payment of our sin debt, but as a way to show us, through His Spirit what real love is.

I did not invent this letter. I simply posted it as a way to stimulate conversation among Christians about the possibility that if there are unbelievers that feet the way this letter contends that we owe it to them to show them that it is our love for them that causes us concern.

Bobby

Your only obligation to those who do not believe as you do is to respect their right to believe as they will.

If you believe something to be a sin and see another committing that "sin" then, if it is not illegal, tough - it is his right not to see it as a sin and to act accordingly.

I act according to my moral code and I would find it highly offensive for anyone to tell me that, because their code calls my actions a sin, I should change my behaviour.

The whole basis of your OP is wrong - whether you position it as a letter from an Atheist or, more honestly, as a letter to a Christian, comments such as :-

"If you believed one bit that thousands every day were falling into an eternal and unchangeable fate, you should be running the streets mad with rage at their blindness"

and

"If you're right then you're an uncaring, unemotional and purely selfish (expletive) that has no right to talk about subjects such as love and caring."

are out of order

.

BHughesNC · Post by **BHughesNC** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:59 pm

Out of whose order. I hope my opinions will not be squashed. I thought that's the point (discussion)

Bobby

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:20 pm

BHughesNC;784202 wrote: Out of whose order. I hope my opinions will not be squashed. I thought that's the point (discussion)

Bobby

Who's squashing, I thought I was posting an opinion within the discussion.

freethinkingthuthseeker · Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:01 pm

to all people who think that hell and fire is physical suffering you are so wrong

the Bible is a highly spiritual book with understanding from God's holy Spirit

The fire referrd top is akin to the burning feeling in the stomach of extreme frustration and the spiritual fuel for this fire is to be seperated from God for one eternity at least.

I hope this helps people to understand Gods love a little better

Post by **spot** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:41 pm

freethinkingthuthseeker;1338674 wrote: I hope this helps people to understand Gods love a little betterPeople might have trouble with the word "one" so close to the word "eternity", I know I do.

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:43 pm

Interesting, I always called that burning feeling indigestion because someone was annoying me at the time.

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:58 am

freethinkingthuthseeker;1338674 wrote: to all people who think that hell and fire is physical suffering you are so wrong

the Bible is a highly spiritual book with understanding from God's holy Spirit

The fire referrd top is akin to the burning feeling in the stomach of extreme frustration and the spiritual fuel for this fire is to be seperated from God for one eternity at least.

I hope this helps people to understand Gods love a little better

To be fair, the reason people think this is because that's exactly what the Bible says Hell is.

If your interpretation is correct, then God is extremely unskilled in expressing Himself in words. Who's wrong then? The people who interpret the words according the the standard meanings, or the lousy author who picked the wrong words to describe something?

I'm speaking in Spanish of course, and by Spanish I obviously mean, not Spanish.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:23 pm

According to scholars there is no one correct interpretation to any scripture. There are several valid interpretations. Nor were the scriptures meant to be read literally or even as history. They are religious and liturgical in nature.

Shalom

Ted

xyz · Post by **xyz** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:31 pm

Ted;1339583 wrote: According to scholars there is no one correct interpretation to any scripture.
That's not what scholars say. There is only one correct interpretation to many sentences or passages of Scripture- to most of them. To others, there are two or more meanings, but they are intended, and do not conflict, but complement each other.

Nor were the scriptures meant to be read literally or even as history.
Most were.

They are religious and liturgical in nature.
Religion can be factual!

There is no liturgy in Scripture. The damned like to think so, though.

Shalom

There is none of that, is there.

freethinkingthuthseeker · Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:03 am

spot;1338867 wrote: People might have trouble with the word "one" so close to the word "eternity", I know I do.

So what is your lack of understanding here dear friend?

freethinkingthuthseeker · Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:07 am

koan;1338869 wrote: Interesting, I always called that burning feeling indigestion because someone was annoying me at the time.

Yes it is interesting

consider that not all feelings of extreme frustration amount to indigestion in many people and this is of course the most extreme frustration and eternal frustration imaginable.

Bless you

freethinkingthuthseeker · Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:10 am

yaaarrrgg;1338879 wrote: To be fair, the reason people think this is because that's exactly what the Bible says Hell is.

If your interpretation is correct, then God is extremely unskilled in expressing Himself in words. Who's wrong then? The people who interpret the words according the the standard meanings, or the lousy author who picked the wrong words to describe something?

I'm speaking in Spanish of course, and by Spanish I obviously mean, not Spanish.

One can only fully understand the meanings of God's holy words as written down by mankind with the gift of the Holy Ghost

it is so unlike any other book written.

One needs to be born again in Spirit to fully comprehend it with respect.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:37 am

spot;778906 wrote: That's a perfectly fair request. Would you rather I wait for a response or two first, or shall I just carry on as a monologue?

Maybe what we need is a revised vocabulary, one in which we come to some agreement of what words mean. We have no way of reconciling our points of view at the moment because we each mean something different by the words. Here's the stumbling blocks - God, heaven, hell, omnipotent, salvation - what you might call the specialist areas that Christianity ought to have at least recognized to be problematic. You say God and paint a picture, for example, and I look at the picture you've drawn and see the Devil. You paint salvation and I see death. You paint me a picture of heaven and hell and I'll guarantee that what I see is lies.

Before Jesus, the history of this society's understanding of God had never considered that God was anything but all-powerful. It recognized that this made God different, the only excuse it ever put into God's mouth is at the end of the book of Job (so long as you throw out that rubbish final chapter where Job gets all his goods and family back again, which is so obviously a tacked on watering down of the original problem). The excuse for the Old Testament omnipotent God is that Job can't understand God because he's never stood in God's shoes, it's God's party and if Job wants to live he can't try to choose the rules, God does. You remember that bit?Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm "Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself? Do you have an arm like God's, and can your voice thunder like his? Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor and clothe yourself in honor and majesty. Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at every proud man and bring him low, look at every proud man and humble him, crush the wicked where they stand. Bury them all in the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave. Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you."In other words he's saying he's neither good nor evil, he's God and you can't call him to account. Is anyone in the book of Job good? Yes, actually. Job is, and he turns out to be the hero even though he ends up sat broken on his ash-heap.

Jesus tried to force God to be good. Jesus wanted the Kingdom of God on earth and he thought he knew the rules of the game. Fulfill the prophesies and the end times will arrive, justice for all and finally an end to the cruelty and oppression. Jesus preached heaven on earth. Blessed are the poor and the persecuted for theirs is the kingdom of heaven - and note George getting in there with his pruning shears and his watering can, terrified of the consequences of letting Jesus have his way, making it only the poor in spirit - heaven keep us from actually doing something about poverty. Blessed are those who mourn, they're the ones whose spirit will be lifted. The hungry will be satisfied (again George is in there, no bread for the poor, these are those who hunger after righteousness, not those hungering after the means to life - I really don't like George, can you tell?). Blessed are the merciful, the peacemakers, the pure of heart, they'll get mercy shown them, they'll inherit the earth, they'll see God. God will finally be constrained to be good. The God who destroyed Job will finally lose his power to be anything but good. Jesus kills the omnipotent God, he becomes God, he provides the template for the new practice of the new religion. Society's understanding of God has to change because now God is good, God is powerless, God is broken. This is the gospel truth, the great news. Jesus killed God. It's the great Wizard of Oz moment. Drums rolled, the earth crashed, the veil of the Temple was torn top to bottom and there was no huge scary magician inside. The great I am that I am who'd spent all that time killing Israelites for breakfast wasn't real. Yes we have a God, he's hanging on that cross on the hill and his name is Jesus and he doesn't kill people. It's okay to love him.

Did Jesus actually know this when he killed God? Of course he didn't, he went to Golgotha thinking God was all-powerful but manipulable. What happened after - the resurrection, the empowerment, Pentecost - is when the old omnipotent God dies and Christianity begins and the kingdom of heaven arrives on earth.

Did any of it happen? It makes no difference. Maybe Jesus was historical, maybe Jesus was a story. The power of the good news is in its understanding, not in wand-waving. Mumbo-jumbo superstition is what the whited sepulchures was all about, the deadening power of belief or dogma over the life-giving power of faith. The exclusive power of the name of Jesus to save is superstition pasted into the bible as a priestly power play, the whole point of the life of Jesus is that power doesn't work. Meekness and humility and poverty and hunger work. Where's the meekness and humility and poverty and hunger in "no one comes to the Father except through me"? It's not there, is it. It's a perversion, the same way "salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved". Those are power-words added back post-Jesus by a church heirarchy anxious to keep its rule over the roost. The bible's the history of our society's understanding of God and what you see there is George trying to put the pieces of omnipotence back together. George and Jesus don't mix, they're oil and water.This thread is a classic. I decided to highlight what I'm addressing because I believe I'd feel guilty erasing any of this post (the same goes for a few others Spot crafted in this thread).

My question is, Spot: if not Jesus, then who narrates or authors this story? If your interpretation is accurate (and I'd like it to be), Jesus had to exist, either as the subject of the narrative or it's author.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:09 pm

Heaven is empty, all the Christians are so busy arguing about whether they have the right gate none of them have actually managed to open it yet.

freethinkingthuthseeker · Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:09 pm

Ahso!;1366087 wrote: This thread is a classic. I decided to highlight what I'm addressing because I believe I'd feel guilty erasing any of this post (the same goes for a few others Spot crafted in this thread).

My question is, Spot: if not Jesus, then who narrates or authors this story? If your interpretation is accurate (and I'd like it to be), Jesus had to exist, either as the subject of the narrative or it's author.

I have added to this including his post with my comments added:

Answer to spot on forum Garden point by point - my answers in italics ( actually Gods inspired words)

That’s a perfectly fair request. Would you rather I wait for a response or two first, or shall I just carry on as a monologue?

No the Bible completely lacks those ego propelled syllogisms

Maybe what we need is a revised vocabulary, one in which we come to some agreement of what words mean. We have no way of reconciling our points of view at the moment because we each mean something different by the words. Here's the stumbling blocks - God, heaven, hell, omnipotent, salvation - what you might call the specialist areas that Christianity ought to have at least recognized to be problematic.

Why? They are clearly defined in the Bible, God is our creator, Heaven is Home, and Hell is to be elsewhere. Who has over meanings for omnipotent or what Salvation means???

You say God and paint a picture, for example, and I look at the picture you've drawn and see the Devil there. You paint salvation and I see death. You paint me a picture of heaven and hell and I'll guarantee that what I see is lies.

I don’t understand what “picture you are paining here you need to explain what you mean by death, lies and the devil.

You also need to be clear that in OT times God was always protecting his People spectacularly in the face of pagan worship

Before Jesus, the history of this society's understanding of God had never considered that God was anything but all-powerful. It recognized that this made God different, the only excuse it ever put into God's mouth is at the end of the book of Job (so long as you throw out that rubbish final chapter where Job gets all his goods and family back again, which is so obviously a tacked on watering down of the original problem). Why is that “Obviously tacked on?”

The excuse for the Old Testament omnipotent God is that Job can't understand God because he's never stood in God's shoes, it's God's party and if Job wants to live he can't try to choose the rules, God does. You remember that bit? Yes and it makes sense God the Creator, designer and architect knows this world better than any living entity on this planet!

Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm "Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself? Do you have an arm like God's, and can your voice thunder like his? Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor and clothe yourself in honor and majesty. Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at every proud man and bring him low, look at every proud man and humble him, crush the wicked where they stand. Bury them all in the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave. Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you."

In other words he's saying he's neither good nor evil, he's God and you can't call him to account.

How do you justify that this can be seen as God not Good? Don’t you understand that the very first sin of the devils rebellion in Heaven before this universe was Pride?

Is anyone in the book of Job good? No for us people in this world are not prefect, Only our God is

Yes, actually. Job is no he had pride!, and he turns out to be the hero even though he ends up sat broken on his ash-heap.

Jesus tried to force God to be good.- Really please elaborate?

Jesus wanted the Kingdom of God on earth- wrong wrong wrong!

and he thought he knew the rules of the game.- Remarkable generalization, a common tool of satan

Fulfill the prophesies and the end times will arrive, justice for all and finally an end to the cruelty and oppression.Yes but in a new Earth and body!

Jesus preached heaven on earth Yes a new earth but with His Glorious Kingdom breaking in here, look it is like the defeat of nazi Germany and the bunker mentality- doh!. Blessed are the poor and the persecuted for theirs is the kingdom of heaven - which is not of this corrupted world - please explain Hitler, amin. Hindley et al etc etc and note George (who is George?)

getting in there with his pruning shears and his watering can, terrified of the consequences of letting Jesus have his way, making it only the poor in spirit - heaven keep us from actually doing something about poverty. Jesus advocated helping the physical poor too of course mr cynical which by the way os another pf satans helpers

Blessed are those who mourn, this is wrong Jesus stated “let the dead bury the dead - obviously no need to mourn.

they're the ones whose spirit will be lifted. The hungry will be satisfied (again George is in there, no bread for the poor, these are those who hunger after righteousness, not those hungering after the means to life - I really don't like George, can you tell?). I don’t know Gearoge but he seems to have a grasp on Truth for being preoccupied with this fleeting world is nothing compared to the everlasting life all saved will have in Heaven

Blessed are the merciful, the peacemakers, the pure of heart, they'll get mercy shown them, - show me one man who has been pure to God’s standards apart from Jesus!

they'll inherit the earth, Doh- not this earth but a new earth! Are you a Jehovah witness in disguise?

they'll see God. God will finally be constrained to be good.- Wow you really are on another planet Our God is ALL POWERFUL

The God who destroyed Job – WRONG AGAIN

will finally lose his power to be anything but good. HOW???

Jesus kills the omnipotent God, he becomes God, he provides the template for the new practice of the new religion. Society's understanding of God has to change because now God is good, God is powerless, God is broken. This is the gospel truth, - UNBELIEVABLE what an awful corruption of the Truth

the great news. Jesus killed God. It's the great Wizard of Oz moment. Drums rolled, the earth crashed, the veil of the Temple was torn top to bottom and there was no huge scary magician inside. The great I am that I am who'd spent all that time killing Israelite s for breakfast wasn't real. Yes we have a God, he's hanging on that cross on the hill and his name is Jesus and he doesn't kill people. It's okay to love him.

Do you forget the Glorious resurrection? Witnessed by over 500 people and not contradicted by any people at that time?

Which in the face of hostile Jews and pagan roman rulers miraculously grew into the major faith of the world without any violence accept against Christians for more that 300 years and that many of the first 500 surrendered to extremely brutal deaths rather that deny that they had seen the resurrected Lord Jesus?

Did Jesus actually know this when he killed God? Of course he didn't, he went to Golgotha thinking God was all-powerful but manipulable. What happened after - the resurrection, the empowerment, Pentecost - is when the old omnipotent God dies and Christianity begins and the kingdom of heaven arrives on earth. Are you Jewish and did not recognise the Messiah? If that was not Jesus, when will he have come?

Do you not recognise the trinity in one verse in Isaiah? In Psalms etc?

Did any of it happen? It makes no difference. Maybe Jesus was historical,

The life death and resurrection of Jesus from 200 years ago is the most well documented most historians including secular sources agree upon

maybe Jesus was a story. The power of the good news is in its understanding, not in wand-waving.- Oh yes? Who inspired you to write this rubbish? Was it a Good god?

Mumbo-jumbo superstition is what the whited sepulchures was all about, the deadening power of belief or dogma over the life-giving power of faith. The exclusive power of the name of Jesus to save is superstition pasted into the bible as a priestly power play, the whole point of the life of Jesus is that any power not from God doesn't work. How come when I have the Holy Spirit within me as a very slim man I can walk down rough areas of my city at night with gang types unable to even look at my face?

Meekness and humility and poverty and hunger work. Where's the meekness and humility and poverty and hunger in "no one comes to the Father except through me"? Because God was explaing at that time that he and his Father are one! It’s even in Genesis at the beginning when God speaks plurally! It's not there, is it. Yes you need to be born again my friend

It's a perversion, the same way "salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved". How about Jehovah, I am, Comforter, counsellor, wisdom, peace. Love etc? Those are power-words added back post-Jesus by a church heirarchy anxious to keep its rule over the roost.

So how come the Dead Sea scrolls corroborate them?

The bible's the history of our society's understanding of God and what you see there is George trying to put the pieces of omnipotence back together. George and Jesus don't mix, they're oil and water.

Actually the Bread and wine are purely symbolic as is much of the words of God.

Bless you to know the truth

Although still curious to know who George is

PS I DO NOT WORSHIP Mary or any human

God bless you

freethinkingthuthseeker · Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:23 pm

freethinkingthuthseeker;1366609 wrote: I have added to this including his post with my comments added:

Answer to spot on forum Garden point by point - my answers in italics ( actually Gods inspired words)

That’s a perfectly fair request. Would you rather I wait for a response or two first, or shall I just carry on as a monologue?

No the Bible completely lacks those ego propelled syllogisms

Maybe what we need is a revised vocabulary, one in which we come to some agreement of what words mean. We have no way of reconciling our points of view at the moment because we each mean something different by the words. Here's the stumbling blocks - God, heaven, hell, omnipotent, salvation - what you might call the specialist areas that Christianity ought to have at least recognized to be problematic.

Why? They are clearly defined in the Bible, God is our creator, Heaven is Home, and Hell is to be elsewhere. Who has over meanings for omnipotent or what Salvation means???

You say God and paint a picture, for example, and I look at the picture you've drawn and see the Devil there. You paint salvation and I see death. You paint me a picture of heaven and hell and I'll guarantee that what I see is lies.

I don’t understand what “picture you are paining here you need to explain what you mean by death, lies and the devil.

You also need to be clear that in OT times God was always protecting his People spectacularly in the face of pagan worship

Before Jesus, the history of this society's understanding of God had never considered that God was anything but all-powerful. It recognized that this made God different, the only excuse it ever put into God's mouth is at the end of the book of Job (so long as you throw out that rubbish final chapter where Job gets all his goods and family back again, which is so obviously a tacked on watering down of the original problem). Why is that “Obviously tacked on?”

The excuse for the Old Testament omnipotent God is that Job can't understand God because he's never stood in God's shoes, it's God's party and if Job wants to live he can't try to choose the rules, God does. You remember that bit? Yes and it makes sense God the Creator, designer and architect knows this world better than any living entity on this planet!

Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm "Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself? Do you have an arm like God's, and can your voice thunder like his? Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor and clothe yourself in honor and majesty. Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at every proud man and bring him low, look at every proud man and humble him, crush the wicked where they stand. Bury them all in the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave. Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you."

In other words he's saying he's neither good nor evil, he's God and you can't call him to account.

How do you justify that this can be seen as God not Good? Don’t you understand that the very first sin of the devils rebellion in Heaven before this universe was Pride?

Is anyone in the book of Job good? No for us people in this world are not prefect, Only our God is

Yes, actually. Job is no he had pride!, and he turns out to be the hero even though he ends up sat broken on his ash-heap.

Jesus tried to force God to be good.- Really please elaborate?

Jesus wanted the Kingdom of God on earth- wrong wrong wrong!

and he thought he knew the rules of the game.- Remarkable generalization, a common tool of satan

Fulfill the prophesies and the end times will arrive, justice for all and finally an end to the cruelty and oppression.Yes but in a new Earth and body!

Jesus preached heaven on earth Yes a new earth but with His Glorious Kingdom breaking in here, look it is like the defeat of nazi Germany and the bunker mentality- doh!. Blessed are the poor and the persecuted for theirs is the kingdom of heaven - which is not of this corrupted world - please explain Hitler, amin. Hindley et al etc etc and note George (who is George?)

getting in there with his pruning shears and his watering can, terrified of the consequences of letting Jesus have his way, making it only the poor in spirit - heaven keep us from actually doing something about poverty. Jesus advocated helping the physical poor too of course mr cynical which by the way os another pf satans helpers

Blessed are those who mourn, this is wrong Jesus stated “let the dead bury the dead - obviously no need to mourn.

they're the ones whose spirit will be lifted. The hungry will be satisfied (again George is in there, no bread for the poor, these are those who hunger after righteousness, not those hungering after the means to life - I really don't like George, can you tell?). I don’t know Gearoge but he seems to have a grasp on Truth for being preoccupied with this fleeting world is nothing compared to the everlasting life all saved will have in Heaven

Blessed are the merciful, the peacemakers, the pure of heart, they'll get mercy shown them, - show me one man who has been pure to God’s standards apart from Jesus!

they'll inherit the earth, Doh- not this earth but a new earth! Are you a Jehovah witness in disguise?

they'll see God. God will finally be constrained to be good.- Wow you really are on another planet Our God is ALL POWERFUL

The God who destroyed Job – WRONG AGAIN

will finally lose his power to be anything but good. HOW???

Jesus kills the omnipotent God, he becomes God, he provides the template for the new practice of the new religion. Society's understanding of God has to change because now God is good, God is powerless, God is broken. This is the gospel truth, - UNBELIEVABLE what an awful corruption of the Truth

the great news. Jesus killed God. It's the great Wizard of Oz moment. Drums rolled, the earth crashed, the veil of the Temple was torn top to bottom and there was no huge scary magician inside. The great I am that I am who'd spent all that time killing Israelite s for breakfast wasn't real. Yes we have a God, he's hanging on that cross on the hill and his name is Jesus and he doesn't kill people. It's okay to love him.

Do you forget the Glorious resurrection? Witnessed by over 500 people and not contradicted by any people at that time?

Which in the face of hostile Jews and pagan roman rulers miraculously grew into the major faith of the world without any violence accept against Christians for more that 300 years and that many of the first 500 surrendered to extremely brutal deaths rather that deny that they had seen the resurrected Lord Jesus?

Did Jesus actually know this when he killed God? Of course he didn't, he went to Golgotha thinking God was all-powerful but manipulable. What happened after - the resurrection, the empowerment, Pentecost - is when the old omnipotent God dies and Christianity begins and the kingdom of heaven arrives on earth. Are you Jewish and did not recognise the Messiah? If that was not Jesus, when will he have come?

Do you not recognise the trinity in one verse in Isaiah? In Psalms etc?

Did any of it happen? It makes no difference. Maybe Jesus was historical,

The life death and resurrection of Jesus from 200 years ago is the most well documented most historians including secular sources agree upon

maybe Jesus was a story. The power of the good news is in its understanding, not in wand-waving.- Oh yes? Who inspired you to write this rubbish? Was it a Good god?

Mumbo-jumbo superstition is what the whited sepulchures was all about, the deadening power of belief or dogma over the life-giving power of faith. The exclusive power of the name of Jesus to save is superstition pasted into the bible as a priestly power play, the whole point of the life of Jesus is that any power not from God doesn't work. How come when I have the Holy Spirit within me as a very slim man I can walk down rough areas of my city at night with gang types unable to even look at my face?

Meekness and humility and poverty and hunger work. Where's the meekness and humility and poverty and hunger in "no one comes to the Father except through me"? Because God was explaing at that time that he and his Father are one! It’s even in Genesis at the beginning when God speaks plurally! It's not there, is it. Yes you need to be born again my friend

It's a perversion, the same way "salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved". How about Jehovah, I am, Comforter, counsellor, wisdom, peace. Love etc? Those are power-words added back post-Jesus by a church heirarchy anxious to keep its rule over the roost.

So how come the Dead Sea scrolls corroborate them?

The bible's the history of our society's understanding of God and what you see there is George trying to put the pieces of omnipotence back together. George and Jesus don't mix, they're oil and water.

Actually the Bread and wine are purely symbolic as is much of the words of God.

Bless you to know the truth

Although still curious to know who George is

PS I DO NOT WORSHIP Mary or any human

God bless you

I Love my King my Lord and creator