Morality of Water Torture
The present question regarding the nature and morality of torture offers us an excellent opportunity to advance the level of sophistication of our understanding of morality. We learn best when we are questioning a matter that is meaningful to us.
I was eleven years old when Germany and Japan surrendered and WWII was finally over. One searing memory of this war were the stories I read and the movies I watched during and after the war regarding the torture and general brutality that the German Gestapo inflicted upon the people they conquered. I do not know why this left such a strong impression on me but it certainly did.
Coincidentally I have been studying “Moral Imagination by Mark Johnson. This is the same Johnson who coauthored the book “Philosophy in the Flesh with George Lakoff. I have decided to apply the theories Johnson presents in his book as a means to illuminate this matter regarding the morality of water torture used by my country in our struggle with Islamic extremists.
Moral understanding is like any other kind of experience; when we examine a domain of experience that relates to human relationships we must focus our attention on human understanding it self. If we do so we discover that human understanding is fundamentally imaginative in character.
“Many of our most basic concepts have considerable internal structure that cannot be accounted for by the classical theory of concepts as defined by necessary and sufficient features¦The primary forms of moral imagination are concepts with prototype structure, semantic frames, conceptual metaphors, and narratives.
To become morally insightful we must become knowledgeable of these imaginative structures. First, we must give up our illusions about absolute moral codes and also our radical moral subjectivism. Second we must refine our “perception of character traits and situations and of developing empathetic imagination to take up the part of others.
Empathy is a character trait that can be cultivated by habit and will. Sympathy is somewhat of an automatic response.
When we see a mother weeping over the death of her child caused by a suicide bomber we feel immediate sympathy. Often we will come to tears. But we do not feel anything like that for the mother who may be weeping over the death of her child who was the bomber.
To understand the bomber we must use empathy. We attempt through imagination and reason to create a situation that will allow us to understand why this was done. This is a rational means to understand someone who acts different than we would.
“Empathy is the idea that the vital properties which we experience in or attribute to any person or object outside ourselves are the projections of our own feelings and thoughts.
The subject viewing an object of art experiences emotional attitudes leading to feelings that are attributes of qualities in the art object thus aesthetic pleasure may be considered as “objectified self-enjoyment in which the subject and object are fused.
The social sciences adopt a similar concept called ‘empathic understanding’, which refers to the deliberate attempt to identify with another person and accounting for that persons actions by “our own immediate experience of our motivations and attitudes in similar circumstances as we remember or imagine them. This idea refers to a personal resonance between two people.
“What is crucial is that our moral reasoning can be constrained by the metaphoric and other imaginative structures shared within our culture and moral tradition, yet it can also be creative in transforming our moral understanding, our identity, and the course of our lives. Without this kind of imaginative reasoning we would lead dreadfully impoverished lives. We would be reduced to repeating habitual actions, driven by forces and contingencies beyond our control.
Can you imagine an individual who is a hard headed realist and very accomplished at empathy sanctioning the use of water torture on anyone, friend or enemy?
Morality of Water Torture
Morality of Water Torture
It appears to me that few people have ever been taught anything about empathy. Empathy is an effort of the imagination to walk in the shoes of another. I suspect that anyone who understand the meaning of empathy and has been able to walk in the shoes of another could not torture that individual.
Take anyone who you know well and truly despise then imagine torturing that individual. I do not think any normal person could do such a thing.
I think that one of the reasons that we humans are on the path to self destruction is partially due to the fact that our culture has never embraced the understanding of empathy.
Take anyone who you know well and truly despise then imagine torturing that individual. I do not think any normal person could do such a thing.
I think that one of the reasons that we humans are on the path to self destruction is partially due to the fact that our culture has never embraced the understanding of empathy.
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Morality of Water Torture
Coberst, I agree that torture, water or otherwise, should not be used. I daresay we disagree on what torture is, based on your title of this thread.
Assuming you are lumping waterboarding known high-level enemies of state in with nazi atrocities, I'll address the former.
I imagine and hope, not having been trained in such things myself, that those that use waterboarding have empathy toward their captives, but choose to squelch it in favor of empathy for our brothers in arms and innocent victims that information from the captives could save. To clarify that mangled attempt: preventing further death, destruction, and unspeakable suffering of many overrides 30 seconds to 3 minutes of discomfort for one.
I spend the majority of most days teaching empathy. It is an important component of social harmony and is critical in competition. Empathy is what separates good winners from bad winners.
In war, empathy is what created the Geneva Convention. It's the reason we take prisoners rather than massacre all combatants.
Assuming you are lumping waterboarding known high-level enemies of state in with nazi atrocities, I'll address the former.
I imagine and hope, not having been trained in such things myself, that those that use waterboarding have empathy toward their captives, but choose to squelch it in favor of empathy for our brothers in arms and innocent victims that information from the captives could save. To clarify that mangled attempt: preventing further death, destruction, and unspeakable suffering of many overrides 30 seconds to 3 minutes of discomfort for one.
I spend the majority of most days teaching empathy. It is an important component of social harmony and is critical in competition. Empathy is what separates good winners from bad winners.
In war, empathy is what created the Geneva Convention. It's the reason we take prisoners rather than massacre all combatants.
Morality of Water Torture
rjwould;777268 wrote: The commercial industry does teach empathy in the context of customer satisfaction, and for management, it is taught for the purpose of human resources in many companies...
I do wish it was taught to our kids in school, but it's difficult to mix empathy and competition. It's why I believe competition should be eliminated from schools and a curriculum of cooperative thinking should be developed and implemented.
I think that you make a very good point. Capitalism dignifies competition too highly and ignores cooperation too easily.
I do wish it was taught to our kids in school, but it's difficult to mix empathy and competition. It's why I believe competition should be eliminated from schools and a curriculum of cooperative thinking should be developed and implemented.
I think that you make a very good point. Capitalism dignifies competition too highly and ignores cooperation too easily.
Morality of Water Torture
Accountable;777312 wrote: Coberst, I agree that torture, water or otherwise, should not be used. I daresay we disagree on what torture is, based on your title of this thread.
Assuming you are lumping waterboarding known high-level enemies of state in with nazi atrocities, I'll address the former.
I imagine and hope, not having been trained in such things myself, that those that use waterboarding have empathy toward their captives, but choose to squelch it in favor of empathy for our brothers in arms and innocent victims that information from the captives could save. To clarify that mangled attempt: preventing further death, destruction, and unspeakable suffering of many overrides 30 seconds to 3 minutes of discomfort for one.
I spend the majority of most days teaching empathy. It is an important component of social harmony and is critical in competition. Empathy is what separates good winners from bad winners.
In war, empathy is what created the Geneva Convention. It's the reason we take prisoners rather than massacre all combatants.
I think that utilitarianism requires certainty and we cannot be certain of anything.
I am surprised about your comment regarding competition. I think that capitalism dignifies competition too much and ignores cooperation too easily.
I would disagree with your last paragraphy. I suspect that the Convention and prisoners issue were matters of self interest rather than empathy.
Assuming you are lumping waterboarding known high-level enemies of state in with nazi atrocities, I'll address the former.
I imagine and hope, not having been trained in such things myself, that those that use waterboarding have empathy toward their captives, but choose to squelch it in favor of empathy for our brothers in arms and innocent victims that information from the captives could save. To clarify that mangled attempt: preventing further death, destruction, and unspeakable suffering of many overrides 30 seconds to 3 minutes of discomfort for one.
I spend the majority of most days teaching empathy. It is an important component of social harmony and is critical in competition. Empathy is what separates good winners from bad winners.
In war, empathy is what created the Geneva Convention. It's the reason we take prisoners rather than massacre all combatants.
I think that utilitarianism requires certainty and we cannot be certain of anything.
I am surprised about your comment regarding competition. I think that capitalism dignifies competition too much and ignores cooperation too easily.
I would disagree with your last paragraphy. I suspect that the Convention and prisoners issue were matters of self interest rather than empathy.
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Morality of Water Torture
coberst;777546 wrote: I am surprised about your comment regarding competition. I think that capitalism dignifies competition too much and ignores cooperation too easily.
Don't forget team sports.
The best competitors have empathy and use it to their best advantage. One has to understand the enemy to know the best way to overcome them, just as one has to understand the ally to know the best way to get and give full cooperation.
The competitor that runs blindly in with only his half of the strategy in mind will be defeated in an instant.
Don't forget team sports.
The best competitors have empathy and use it to their best advantage. One has to understand the enemy to know the best way to overcome them, just as one has to understand the ally to know the best way to get and give full cooperation.
The competitor that runs blindly in with only his half of the strategy in mind will be defeated in an instant.
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Morality of Water Torture
Having empathy doesn't mean you have to agree with the other person. Nomad (in another thread) empathizes with his sister but definitely doesn't support her decisions.
Without empathy, how are you going to understand a person's motivations? Without understanding a person's motivations, you may choose the wrong form of torture (if you must call it that) to get the information. By studying the enemy's culture, you can empathize and choose better, more effective ways. The guy may be hindu, frinstance and trained against standard pain techniques, but put a gun to a cow's head and he may spill his guts. See?
Am I wrong in this? Is this something other than empathy, "the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner" (Mirriam-Webster's)?
Without empathy, how are you going to understand a person's motivations? Without understanding a person's motivations, you may choose the wrong form of torture (if you must call it that) to get the information. By studying the enemy's culture, you can empathize and choose better, more effective ways. The guy may be hindu, frinstance and trained against standard pain techniques, but put a gun to a cow's head and he may spill his guts. See?
Am I wrong in this? Is this something other than empathy, "the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner" (Mirriam-Webster's)?
Morality of Water Torture
Accountable;777833 wrote: Don't forget team sports.
The best competitors have empathy and use it to their best advantage. One has to understand the enemy to know the best way to overcome them, just as one has to understand the ally to know the best way to get and give full cooperation.
The competitor that runs blindly in with only his half of the strategy in mind will be defeated in an instant.
Well said. I suspect that the lack of empathy is the primary cause for the US to do such a poor job in Vietnam and Iraq.
The best competitors have empathy and use it to their best advantage. One has to understand the enemy to know the best way to overcome them, just as one has to understand the ally to know the best way to get and give full cooperation.
The competitor that runs blindly in with only his half of the strategy in mind will be defeated in an instant.
Well said. I suspect that the lack of empathy is the primary cause for the US to do such a poor job in Vietnam and Iraq.
Morality of Water Torture
Accountable;777982 wrote: Having empathy doesn't mean you have to agree with the other person. Nomad (in another thread) empathizes with his sister but definitely doesn't support her decisions.
Without empathy, how are you going to understand a person's motivations? Without understanding a person's motivations, you may choose the wrong form of torture (if you must call it that) to get the information. By studying the enemy's culture, you can empathize and choose better, more effective ways. The guy may be hindu, frinstance and trained against standard pain techniques, but put a gun to a cow's head and he may spill his guts. See?
Am I wrong in this? Is this something other than empathy, "the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner" (Mirriam-Webster's)?
You are correct.
I understand my best friend and I should understand my worst enemy; empathy is the means for understanding.
Without empathy, how are you going to understand a person's motivations? Without understanding a person's motivations, you may choose the wrong form of torture (if you must call it that) to get the information. By studying the enemy's culture, you can empathize and choose better, more effective ways. The guy may be hindu, frinstance and trained against standard pain techniques, but put a gun to a cow's head and he may spill his guts. See?
Am I wrong in this? Is this something other than empathy, "the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner" (Mirriam-Webster's)?
You are correct.
I understand my best friend and I should understand my worst enemy; empathy is the means for understanding.
Morality of Water Torture
Accountable
My experience informs me that no Christian religion in America teaches us anything about empathy. Do you agree with that conclusion?
My experience informs me that no Christian religion in America teaches us anything about empathy. Do you agree with that conclusion?
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Morality of Water Torture
coberst;778061 wrote: Well said. I suspect that the lack of empathy is the primary cause for the US to do such a poor job in Vietnam and Iraq.
YES! :yh_clap ........... :yh_sweat
I wish I had the quotes at my fingertips -- okay, the time & energy to find them now, then -- I remember expert after expert during the post-Gulf War debate of why we should or should not have invaded, all the way up to the invasion 5 years ago, saying that the culture is just too foreign to ours for us to easily understand. Going to war against an enemy with only our own value systems in mind has been our undoing.
Look to history to find it again and again. Didn't it take a very long time to annihilate the aboriginal Americans? The Brits had problems fighting people who refused to stand in a straight line across the field of battle for target shooting.
YES! :yh_clap ........... :yh_sweat
I wish I had the quotes at my fingertips -- okay, the time & energy to find them now, then -- I remember expert after expert during the post-Gulf War debate of why we should or should not have invaded, all the way up to the invasion 5 years ago, saying that the culture is just too foreign to ours for us to easily understand. Going to war against an enemy with only our own value systems in mind has been our undoing.
Look to history to find it again and again. Didn't it take a very long time to annihilate the aboriginal Americans? The Brits had problems fighting people who refused to stand in a straight line across the field of battle for target shooting.
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Morality of Water Torture
coberst;778064 wrote: Accountable
My experience informs me that no Christian religion in America teaches us anything about empathy. Do you agree with that conclusion?
I'm the wrong guy to ask, I think. Jesus certainly taught it. "Let he without sin cast the first stone," and all that.
I know I came across empathy more from my curiosity about others than from any formal training.
My experience informs me that no Christian religion in America teaches us anything about empathy. Do you agree with that conclusion?
I'm the wrong guy to ask, I think. Jesus certainly taught it. "Let he without sin cast the first stone," and all that.
I know I came across empathy more from my curiosity about others than from any formal training.
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Morality of Water Torture
rjwould;778164 wrote: True, but the most accurate reason the British were defeated here was because many of their soldiers refused to do battle with their own countrymen...That's an example of empathy...
I'm having a difficult time with the association of empathy and strategy. At it's core, I think the word was intended to suggest understanding in it's purest and most vulnerable state, without any other motive than to relate to being.
I was referring to the aboriginal Americans, the American Indians. I understand your difficulty, but can you think of a better word than empathy?
I'm having a difficult time with the association of empathy and strategy. At it's core, I think the word was intended to suggest understanding in it's purest and most vulnerable state, without any other motive than to relate to being.
I was referring to the aboriginal Americans, the American Indians. I understand your difficulty, but can you think of a better word than empathy?
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Morality of Water Torture
rjwould;778253 wrote: I'm not saying that you are using a 'wrong' word, what I am saying is I am uncomfortable with it's application..
This is a good discussion...
I agree. As to the application, it makes sense, right? Putting yourself in your enemy's shoes not only helps you to figure out what his next move will be, what his likely response to your next move will be, and how to most efficiently use your resources against him; it also will help you understand when and how to begin to stand down to allow a dignified end to the hostilities, possibly hastening such an opportunity by showing appreciation for his positives, such as (in the case of war) his country's rich art and proud history.
This is a good discussion...
I agree. As to the application, it makes sense, right? Putting yourself in your enemy's shoes not only helps you to figure out what his next move will be, what his likely response to your next move will be, and how to most efficiently use your resources against him; it also will help you understand when and how to begin to stand down to allow a dignified end to the hostilities, possibly hastening such an opportunity by showing appreciation for his positives, such as (in the case of war) his country's rich art and proud history.
Morality of Water Torture
coberst;776654 wrote: Morality of Water Torture
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Can you imagine an individual who is a hard headed realist and very accomplished at empathy sanctioning the use of water torture on anyone, friend or enemy?
Empathy in my opinion goes right out the window when a situation is put on a very personal level. If the life of my loved ones are imperiled as in the case of kidnapping, abduction etc., I personally, would have no problem in using any means necessary to extract information that may possibly save their lives.
Empathy is a wonderful virtue when we are detached and distanced from a situation.
I too remember the WW2 films depicting the Gestapo & Japanese torture of prisoners and empathized with the victims. After all the victims were the GOOD GUYS (weren't they?) With the present Radical Islam vs. Civilized Society, who are the GOOD GUYS?
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Can you imagine an individual who is a hard headed realist and very accomplished at empathy sanctioning the use of water torture on anyone, friend or enemy?
Empathy in my opinion goes right out the window when a situation is put on a very personal level. If the life of my loved ones are imperiled as in the case of kidnapping, abduction etc., I personally, would have no problem in using any means necessary to extract information that may possibly save their lives.
Empathy is a wonderful virtue when we are detached and distanced from a situation.
I too remember the WW2 films depicting the Gestapo & Japanese torture of prisoners and empathized with the victims. After all the victims were the GOOD GUYS (weren't they?) With the present Radical Islam vs. Civilized Society, who are the GOOD GUYS?
Morality of Water Torture
Lon;778521 wrote: Empathy in my opinion goes right out the window when a situation is put on a very personal level. If the life of my loved ones are imperiled as in the case of kidnapping, abduction etc., I personally, would have no problem in using any means necessary to extract information that may possibly save their lives.
Empathy is a wonderful virtue when we are detached and distanced from a situation.
I too remember the WW2 films depicting the Gestapo & Japanese torture of prisoners and empathized with the victims. After all the victims were the GOOD GUYS (weren't they?) With the present Radical Islam vs. Civilized Society, who are the GOOD GUYS?
That is easy to answer. WE are always the good guys and THEY are always the bad guys. If we do not understand them and they do not understand us then we will always try to kill them and they will always try to kill us. Without empathy this cycle will go on until one of us or them find a way to completely destroy the other.
Empathy is a wonderful virtue when we are detached and distanced from a situation.
I too remember the WW2 films depicting the Gestapo & Japanese torture of prisoners and empathized with the victims. After all the victims were the GOOD GUYS (weren't they?) With the present Radical Islam vs. Civilized Society, who are the GOOD GUYS?
That is easy to answer. WE are always the good guys and THEY are always the bad guys. If we do not understand them and they do not understand us then we will always try to kill them and they will always try to kill us. Without empathy this cycle will go on until one of us or them find a way to completely destroy the other.
Morality of Water Torture
[quote=coberst;778753]That is easy to answer. WE are always the good guys and THEY are always the bad guys.
EASY? Who is WE?
EASY? Who is WE?
Morality of Water Torture
Lon;778914 wrote: [quote=coberst;778753]That is easy to answer. WE are always the good guys and THEY are always the bad guys.
EASY? Who is WE?
WE is the group to which I belong. For you WE is the group to which you belong. If you, like me, are American then Americans are the good guys.
EASY? Who is WE?
WE is the group to which I belong. For you WE is the group to which you belong. If you, like me, are American then Americans are the good guys.
Morality of Water Torture
coberst;778933 wrote: [quote=Lon;778914]
WE is the group to which I belong. For you WE is the group to which you belong. If you, like me, are American then Americans are the good guys.
But as an American, I don't always think of my self, or my group, as a good guy.
WE is the group to which I belong. For you WE is the group to which you belong. If you, like me, are American then Americans are the good guys.
But as an American, I don't always think of my self, or my group, as a good guy.
Morality of Water Torture
Lon;778935 wrote: [quote=coberst;778933]
But as an American, I don't always think of my self, or my group, as a good guy.
That is great. We need more critical thinking of that kind. I suspect few citizens of America ever think that Americans are the bad guys.
But as an American, I don't always think of my self, or my group, as a good guy.
That is great. We need more critical thinking of that kind. I suspect few citizens of America ever think that Americans are the bad guys.