Should fat people and smokers be denied medical treatment .

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:24 am

I was watching Mad Money (investment TV show) yesterday. Cramer quoted a stat that laproscopic surgery can eliminate something like 78% of type 2 diabetes. I thought once you got it you got it and that's that.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:38 am

Accountable;764955 wrote: I was watching Mad Money (investment TV show) yesterday. Cramer quoted a stat that laproscopic surgery can eliminate something like 78% of type 2 diabetes. I thought once you got it you got it and that's that.

It is. I have Type 2. You can cut back on the amount of medication you require through diet and exercise but you can't get rid of diabetes.

ETA: I am wondering if he might have meant that lap surgery could *prevent* type 2 in 78% of people?? I'd be interested to know where he's coming from on this.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:51 am

rjwould;764962 wrote: You should read the Hellers book, Red, you would be amazed at how easy it is to control with the proper eating habits...

Is that the book about carbohydrates??

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:04 am

rjwould;764970 wrote: Yes, but It's not Atkins....

I remember that Atkins Diet.

It's my understanding once you require insuliin, which I do, it's because teh pancreas is already shot. That its damage is irreversible.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:15 am

RedGlitter;764959 wrote: It is. I have Type 2. You can cut back on the amount of medication you require through diet and exercise but you can't get rid of diabetes.

ETA: I am wondering if he might have meant that lap surgery could *prevent* type 2 in 78% of people?? I'd be interested to know where he's coming from on this.
I'll try to find it.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:26 am

RedGlitter;764959 wrote: ETA: I am wondering if he might have meant that lap surgery could *prevent* type 2 in 78% of people?? I'd be interested to know where he's coming from on this.
www.madmoneyrecap.com

Yesterday's show isn't posted yet. He was recommending a stock to take advantage of new medical findings. I could be remembering the details wrong since I was listening for financial reasons rather than medical.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:53 am

Accountable;764993 wrote: www.madmoneyrecap.com

Yesterday's show isn't posted yet. He was recommending a stock to take advantage of new medical findings. I could be remembering the details wrong since I was listening for financial reasons rather than medical.

Thanks for the link, Acc. I'll keep an eye on it.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:54 am

rjwould;764994 wrote: Not necessarily true...You seem like a pretty avid reader, you could probably get through this book in no time flat...

What is the book again please, RJ? I try to stay open minded about this but there are a lot of "reverse diabetes!!" programs out there and I don't know how true they may be. But I'm willing to look into almost anything.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:02 am

HOOVER! or one of those vaccuum cleaners.

The study, published Wednesday in the Journal of the American Medical Association, involved 60 obese patients with Type 2 diabetes. It found that 73 percent of those who had laparoscopic gastric banding surgery experienced remission of their diabetes. Only 13 percent of the patients who went through a conventional weight-loss program experienced remission.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:09 am

rjwould;765015 wrote:

You will not be sorry...I promise....

Accountable;765018 wrote: HOOVER! or one of those vaccuum cleaners.

The study, published Wednesday in the Journal of the American Medical Association, involved 60 obese patients with Type 2 diabetes. It found that 73 percent of those who had laparoscopic gastric banding surgery experienced remission of their diabetes. Only 13 percent of the patients who went through a conventional weight-loss program experienced remission.

Thanks RJ, I put it on my Amazon "To Buy" list.

Acc, remission?! Wow. Ok, I don't think I'd have that surgery honestly, but if it had be put in remission that way, then maybe there's hope for other ways! I'm going to look into this and ask my doctor about it too.

thanks!

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:11 pm

RedGlitter;765021 wrote: Thanks RJ, I put it on my Amazon "To Buy" list.

Acc, remission?! Wow. Ok, I don't think I'd have that surgery honestly, but if it had be put in remission that way, then maybe there's hope for other ways! I'm going to look into this and ask my doctor about it too.

thanks!

* slings his cape behind him and flies off into the sunset ... Sunset Bar & Grill, that is *

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:28 pm

Accountable;765035 wrote: * slings his cape behind him and flies off into the sunset ... Sunset Bar & Grill, that is *

:wah: :-6

Chezzie · Post by **Chezzie** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:30 pm

Accountable;765035 wrote: * slings his cape behind him and flies off into the sunset ... Sunset Bar & Grill, that is *

then crashes into a lampost and damages his goolies forever :wah:

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:31 pm

Chezzie;765046 wrote: then crashes into a lampost and damages his goolies forever :wah:
:-3 That would entail a different type of googlie search.

double helix · Post by **double helix** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:22 am

Accountable;764955 wrote: I was watching Mad Money (investment TV show) yesterday. Cramer quoted a stat that laproscopic surgery can eliminate something like 78% of type 2 diabetes. I thought once you got it you got it and that's that.I think you mean Bariatric surgery. It can reverse diabetes because it alters the hormones for 18 months to two years and allows the person to loose enough weight to reset the bodies absorption of sugar. Its a almost cure, almost because eventually the person, if they do not change their eating habits, will slide back into diabetes and obesity. They go hand in hand you know. This is a similar surgery to what I had. Only mine was a complete rerouting of my intestines not lap bands. I am permanetly altered. My blood pressure has dropped and remains low enough that I don't need three medications like I once did. I remain steady after five years with no weight gains in the last two. Although I have had vitamin absorbtion problems they have been easy to overcome. I would do it all again in a heatbeat.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:02 pm

hellochika;774570 wrote: lets go giants!! NFL champs!!
:-2................

double helix · Post by **double helix** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:40 pm

Pinky;774587 wrote: wHATEVER!!!?

As if the NHS would last five minutes without the revenue from smokers?

It would be highly hypocrytical of them to deny us treatmentbwhile we basically pay for the rest of the nation. Ok, people who smoke non-stop are killing themseves, same as people who eat sh1t all the time. They may not look unhealthy, but are you going to test them and say 'No! We can't treat them, they've had KFC foir the last 40 years'

NO!!!! Get with the fÂ£cking programme!!!!

No, not test them. But when they come in with problems caused by smoking or obesity and REFUSE to alter their habits, see thats another story. Why should the taxpayer foot the bill for people who REFUSE to alter their lifestyle but want a quick fix?

Like a junkie, getting methadone for free. Over half of the junkies in the free methadone program go back to using heroin. 3/4 of them eventually die from complications due to use of herioin. Same for crack heads refusing to accept recovery programs or dropping out after their manditory six months and going back to the pipe.

I don't know about any of you, but I don't want to be spending my tax dollars forcing help on people who refuse to help themselves. They want to kill themselves, let them do so.

Marie5656 · Post by **Marie5656** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:11 am

Interesting topic, pants. And I have some definate feedback. As I mentioned in another thread, I have just had a total hip replacement. An orthopedic doc I saw last MAY saw me, looked at my X Ray, told me my hip was shot and then said, I cannot operate now as you are too heavy. Now I was in alot of pain, could barely walk and he said I'd have to loose at least 70 pounds for him to consider surgery.

That is a tough thing to do anyway, and factor in I am over 50, post menopause.

I went to another doctor who confirmed I needed the surgery, and agreed that while I did need to lose some weight, he would not advise waiting till I lost it all, as he felt I would not loose all of it untill I could add exercise to the healthy eating mix. Thus, I got my surgery last month, 7 months after the first diagnosis. The first doctor did not even want to make an appointment to see me again and as much as said I was wasting his time till I lost the weight.

By the way, since seeing the first doctor in May of last year, I dod lose over 20 pounds. And have lost more since surgery.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:00 pm

double helix;774606 wrote: No, not test them. But when they come in with problems caused by smoking or obesity and REFUSE to alter their habits, see thats another story. Why should the taxpayer foot the bill for people who REFUSE to alter their lifestyle but want a quick fix?

Like a junkie, getting methadone for free. Over half of the junkies in the free methadone program go back to using heroin. 3/4 of them eventually die from complications due to use of herioin. Same for crack heads refusing to accept recovery programs or dropping out after their manditory six months and going back to the pipe.

I don't know about any of you, but I don't want to be spending my tax dollars forcing help on people who refuse to help themselves. They want to kill themselves, let them do so.

Maybe you'd prefer to top them where they stand rather than trying to cure them?

pantsonfire321@aol.com · Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:20 pm

Bryn Mawr;774834 wrote: Maybe you'd prefer to top them where they stand rather than trying to cure them?

Do you ever really cure a junkie

...actually i agree with DH on Junkies, i'd also add alcoholics into the mix too - both a waste of oxygen ....at least smokers and obese people arn't gonna break into your house and rob you for a fix;)

Thanks for the replys guys, their all very interesting . The sad thing is it is already happening here in the Uk and there's not a dam thing we can do about it .

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:43 am

pantsonfire321@aol.com;775052 wrote: Do you ever really cure a junkie

...actually i agree with DH on Junkies, i'd also add alcoholics into the mix too - both a waste of oxygen ....at least smokers and obese people arn't gonna break into your house and rob you.

My, what a caring person you are!

Tell me, you used to be a special, did you never arrest any "Fat smoking burglers?"

pantsonfire321@aol.com · Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:55 am

abbey;775058 wrote: My, what a caring person you are!

Tell me, you used to be a special, did you never arrest any "Fat smoking burglers?"

My problem is with Junkies and alkies....where have i slagged off smokers .

So what actual purpose do Junkies have in society .

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:27 am

pantsonfire321@aol.com;775052 wrote: Do you ever really cure a junkie

...actually i agree with DH on Junkies, i'd also add alcoholics into the mix too - both a waste of oxygen ....at least smokers and obese people arn't gonna break into your house and rob you for a fix;)

Thanks for the replys guys, their all very interesting . The sad thing is it is already happening here in the Uk and there's not a dam thing we can do about it .

You might be surprised, there are lots of reformed junkies and alcoholics making a full contribution to society.

I get the feeling that empathy is not your strong point?

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:01 pm

pantsonfire321@aol.com;775065 wrote: My problem is with Junkies and alkies....where have i slagged off smokers .

So what actual purpose do Junkies have in society .This was the quote you posted before adding "for a fix" Which was the one I was was replying to

Originally Posted by pantsonfire321@aol.com

Do you ever really cure a junkie

...actually i agree with DH on Junkies, i'd also add alcoholics into the mix too - both a waste of oxygen ....at least smokers and obese people arn't gonna break into your house and rob you.

As for the what purpose addicts have in society, there are a couple of reformed addicts/alcholics on this board that may be able to answer that one.

pantsonfire321@aol.com · Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:11 am

abbey;775383 wrote: This was the quote you posted before adding "for a fix" Which was the one I was was replying to

Right, so you counld't wait to jump on me in between the 3 seconds to took me to add the last three words ...again where have i said anything about smokers (for the record i am not a smoker):-5

As for the what purpose addicts have in society, there are a couple of reformed addicts/alcholics on this board that may be able to answer that one.

Thats just it a reformed addict would be a useful member of society where as a junkie needing methodone is a drain on resources.....i don't see you having a go at DH whos views are far harsher than mine ...it must be quite around here :rolleyes:

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:05 am

Do you guys realise that you are almost mirroring Hitlers final solution? Do you propose then, that we put all those you deem as non contributors to society in a prison or ghetto, or send to the gas chambers?

As a nurse reading this thread, I am apalled at the lack of compassion exhibated here! What ever happened to 'there but for the grace of God go I'! Do you know what happened to them in their lives to lead them down such paths?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:15 pm

pantsonfire321@aol.com;775687 wrote: Thats just it a reformed addict would be a useful member of society where as a junkie needing methodone is a drain on resources.....i don't see you having a go at DH whos views are far harsher than mine ...it must be quite around here :rolleyes:

I'm quite impartial, I've taken issue with DH every time I've seen him suggest the like and I'll take issue with you just the same.

Your "Do you ever really cure a junkie

...actually i agree with DH on Junkies, i'd also add alcoholics into the mix too - both a waste of oxygen" suggests that you believe that there's no such thing as a reformed addict and that they should all be killed to prevent them from wasting our precious oxygen - not a pleasant attitude.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:45 pm

Right, so you counld't wait to jump on me in between the 3 seconds to took me to add the last three words ...again where have i said anything about smokers (for the record i am not a smoker):-5Look at the times of the two posts.

The post which I took my quote from,was posted at 6.20am.

Mine was posted with your unedited quote at 7.43am a full 1 hour 23 minutes later not 3 seconds!

pantsonfire321@aol.com · Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:11 am

Bryn Mawr;775898 wrote: I'm quite impartial, I've taken issue with DH every time I've seen him suggest the like and I'll take issue with you just the same.

Your "Do you ever really cure a junkie

...actually i agree with DH on Junkies, i'd also add alcoholics into the mix too - both a waste of oxygen" suggests that you believe that there's no such thing as a reformed addict and that they should all be killed to prevent them from wasting our precious oxygen - not a pleasant attitude.

Bryn where have i said 'kill them all'..... i do believe junkies are a waste of space and a drain on the NHS and no i don't have any sympathy for them, i also don't think the NHS should be using well needed funds to give Methadone to people who repeatedly take drugs . Thats my opinion and as much as your entitled to yours that is mine .

Have you ever been mugged by a junkie and had them threaten to slash your face ...well maybe when you have you'll see them in a different light .

pantsonfire321@aol.com · Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:14 am

abbey;775970 wrote: Look at the times of the two posts.

The post which I took my quote from,was posted at 6.20am.

Mine was posted with your unedited quote at 7.43am a full 1 hour 23 minutes later not 3 seconds!

Really, you must be paying an awful lot of attention to what i post ...nothing to do with you being a smoker and not reading the whole thread:rolleyes:

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:51 am

pantsonfire321@aol.com;776180 wrote: Bryn where have i said 'kill them all'..... i do believe junkies are a waste of space and a drain on the NHS and no i don't have any sympathy for them, i also don't think the NHS should be using well needed funds to give Methadone to people who repeatedly take drugs . Thats my opinion and as much as your entitled to yours that is mine .

Have you ever been mugged by a junkie and had them threaten to slash your face ...well maybe when you have you'll see them in a different light .

The use of the phrase "suggests that" makes it clear that you did not use those words but implied it. Whilst you are entitled to that opinion I have every right to say I find it intolerant in the extreme.

None of the junkies I've met have threatened me in any way but, even if one did, I would no more condemn all junkies for the action of one than I would condemn all women for the action of one.

Mystery · Post by **Mystery** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:25 am

I beg to differ about the suggestion there aren't any reformed addicts, as I happen to be one myself.

Never considered myself to be a wast of oxygen

Nor the hundreds of other reformed addicts I know. Of course, I don't consider junkies that way either as I've seen too many work their butts off to overcome their issues. But then, I suppose I could be called bias.

pantsonfire321@aol.com · Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:46 am

Mystery;776414 wrote: I beg to differ about the suggestion there aren't any reformed addicts, as I happen to be one myself.

Never considered myself to be a wast of oxygen

Nor the hundreds of other reformed addicts I know. Of course, I don't consider junkies that way either as I've seen too many work their butts off to overcome their issues. But then, I suppose I could be called bias.

No your not bias just speaking from experience ...it's fantastic that your a success story, i really mean that (i hope that doesn't sound wrong). Maybe it's me that's Bias basing my experience on the bad side of junkies that i have seen first hand ...i'm talking junkies that'll rob their own grandmother (i know a family of them all in prison.... but thats another story )

I still think it's a drain on the NHS and thats what this thread is about .

Mystery · Post by **Mystery** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:48 pm

pantsonfire321@aol.com;776424 wrote: No your not bias just speaking from experience ...it's fantastic that your a success story, i really mean that (i hope that doesn't sound wrong). Maybe it's me that's Bias basing my experience on the bad side of junkies that i have seen first hand ...i'm talking junkies that'll rob their own grandmother (i know a family of them all in prison.... but thats another story )

I still think it's a drain on the NHS and thats what this thread is about .

So, let me elaborate a little on this.

First of all, thanks.

Yes, there are many, many drug addicts that will steal from, lie to, and cheat against their loved ones to fulfill their addictions. Lots of people get up in arms about that, and I totally understand as it's seriously frustrating for those loved ones. But, from my perspective, I also see the uncontrollable nature of addiction and the addict's lack of ability to just stop, or to even respond to the guilt of doing those things (because trust me, guilt, shame and remorse are defo felt).

So, rather than going on into a big drawn out story, as I can tend to do, if the addict has come to a place where he or she is aware of the problem and has been made aware of a solution then I have no "soft spot" for them, as we all have to own our own problems. BUT, I do not feel that we should turn our backs on them because they have an illness (one that's recognized by the CDC and the AMA).

As for the drain. You're quite right, it is a big problem. What needs to happen, at least in my area, is putting more emphasis on providing services rather than jail cells. And by services, I don't mean for an indefinite period of time. Once they're given help, it's up to them to adhere to it.

That's a ramble, and I'm not even sure if it all makes sense

Wolverine · Post by **Wolverine** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:08 pm

not fat people.

Smokers... half yes. and i say this, even tho i am a smoker. have been for more than a decade.

It's free will. If i choose to smoke, knowing fulll well that it is someday going to kill me, then i don't have any right to bitch about my medical treatment when i end up in the hospital because of it.

should i be denied medical treatment? absolutely NOT. but should my insurance premiums be higher, certainly. should the gov't help make up the difference? no way.

it kind of goes along with my thoughts on seat belts and helmets.

yes, seatbelts and helmets save lives. unquestionably.

but if there's a rider out there that doesn't want to wear a helmet and that rider get's into an accident; the "state" is not going to help pay for medical bills. you and your family are SOL(stuff out of luck).

if you die because you weren't wearing your helmet, your family waives any right to sue the person that "made you crash" or whatever.

same thing for seatbelts, if you're too stupid to wear your seatbelt and get in a wreck, you are ON YOUR OWN. No social security disability, severely diminished medicare/medicaid benefits, etc.

but until we can figure out how to keep repeat DUI offenders from driving and severly injuring good people, none of this matters

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:47 pm

pantsonfire321@aol.com;776181 wrote: Really, you must be paying an awful lot of attention to what i post ...nothing to do with you being a smoker and not reading the whole thread:rolleyes: :wah: Apology accepted

pantsonfire321@aol.com · Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:53 pm

abbey;776521 wrote: :wah: Apology accepted

You can't take what ain't given, darling:rolleyes:

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:31 pm

I get more annoyed at people bitching about stuff like this than about the issue in the first place. If you look, there is something unfair about most things in the world.

Basically, if you want to be part of a society, bite it.

Chezzie · Post by **Chezzie** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:03 am

So lets say (an example) I am 45-50 years old, worked every day from the age of 16 and paid my taxes. Also like to eat fattening food and smoke. I pay taxes on the food and the cigarettes so the government is coining it in...Then I require some kind of surgery..........Why shouldnt I get it, if I have paid into it.

The same with alcohol and drugs in my opinion. People think of druggies and alcoholics and automatically think down and outs, thieves etc...Thats not always the case, their are an awful lot of professional people who fit into that category, doctors and surgeons,to name a couple. They hold down jobs, families and to the outside world look perfect. Wake up to the fact that most people are addicted to something...Just some addictions are more dangerous and harmful than others.

I just hope some of the people here never get so down on their luck that they cant climb out of the bottomless pit they are stuck in and resort to alcohol,drugs,prescription drugs to help them cope with their day. We are all human for gods sake, we all make mistakes, life doesnt come with a "How to be a perfect human being hand book"

By the way, I dont smoke, drink or take drugs and try to eat healthy the best I can but guess what......I ***** up once in a while and it feels great:)

Carl44 · Post by **Carl44** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:16 am

Chezzie;776661 wrote: So lets say (an example) I am 45-50 years old, worked every day from the age of 16 and paid my taxes. Also like to eat fattening food and smoke. I pay taxes on the food and the cigarettes so the government is coining it in...Then I require some kind of surgery..........Why shouldnt I get it, if I have paid into it.

The same with alcohol and drugs in my opinion. People think of druggies and alcoholics and automatically think down and outs, thieves etc...Thats not always the case, their are an awful lot of professional people who fit into that category, doctors and surgeons,to name a couple. They hold down jobs, families and to the outside world look perfect. Wake up to the fact that most people are addicted to something...Just some addictions are more dangerous and harmful than others.

I just hope some of the people here never get so down on their luck that they cant climb out of the bottomless pit they are stuck in and resort to alcohol,drugs,prescription drugs to help them cope with their day. We are all human for gods sake, we all make mistakes, life doesnt come with a "How to be a perfect human being hand book"

By the way, I dont smoke, drink or take drugs and try to eat healthy the best I can but guess what......I ***** up once in a while and it feels great:)

great post chesney :-6

i have f'ed up more times than i care to recall ,not drugs just the demon drink some of us go through real horrors that its hard to be normal ... i'm back on the straight and narrow now i dont think i have even had a drink this year but its great to see some of you guys with big hearts and loads of love and understanding for your fellow man , there but for the grace of god go i comes to mind how do these hard hearted people know that if they had the same tragedies in life as some of these other poor souls that they would not of ********d up