Do you believe that demons exist?

theia · Post by **theia** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:46 pm

I was surprised today when I read that a writer, whose work I find really inspiring, said that he actually believed in demons, as separate entities, not as part of the personality.

So, I'd welcome other people's views.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:49 pm

Yes I do believe they exist. Not sure how to explain it, but I do.

WonderWendy3 · Post by **WonderWendy3** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:53 pm

Yes I believe in them, have seen people possesed with them:-1

theia · Post by **theia** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:16 pm

rjwould;771038 wrote: Jung?

No, actually, it was Thomas Keating, Ted mentioned him a few months ago and I've now read several of his books.

I'm unsure what Jung's stance on demons was. I thought he viewed demons as part of a split psyche, but I could well be wrong. If you come across anything, I'd appreciate hearing more.

Thanks, Sheryl and WW. If you could say more, I'd find it helpful.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:18 pm

I believe in angels. And if God cast those who went against him down to earth, then they do have to exist.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:41 pm

Matt Demon isn't such a bad dude, although he was a toughy to kill in the Bourne movies..

Mystery · Post by **Mystery** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:46 pm

Sure I do. More so, however, that it would be evil manifesting itself into a form we view as human, although they could be in spirit form as well.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:05 pm

No. There was some excuse in medieval times when people didn't understand mental illness and demon possession seemed to make sense as an explanation. Now there is no excuse for such a ridiculous belief. It's right up there with believing that being born with a birth defect is a judgement from god. It's depressing anyone believes such nonsense nowadays.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:07 pm

I most definately believe in demons. I think demons have labels. Some are less agressive than others. Some are controllable by the host, others are not controllable. Some demons are uninvited guests, some are beckoned by the host, some are firmly imbedded from birth. In the later case, the human body really is just a shell housing the demon. There is no other entity in there.That is the caase with subjects like Ted Bundy, Son of Sam. and all serial killers.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:45 pm

I was married to a DEMON for 7 years they exist.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:55 pm

theia;771035 wrote: I was surprised today when I read that a writer, whose work I find really inspiring, said that he actually believed in demons, as separate entities, not as part of the personality.

So, I'd welcome other people's views.

Demons only exist in our own minds.

KB. · Post by **KB.** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:57 pm

I believe in evil but I'm not sure I'd want to label it with a noun.

mrsK · Post by **mrsK** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:27 pm

theia;771035 wrote: I was surprised today when I read that a writer, whose work I find really inspiring, said that he actually believed in demons, as separate entities, not as part of the personality.

So, I'd welcome other people's views.

I believe demons & angels exist,how I would explain this to you I don't know.

It is what I was taught as a child by my parents,they taught us about ,god,angels,demons etc. I guess I have never really questioned them,about the things they taught us.Didn't see any need to.:-6

Post by **spot** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:19 am

theia;771035 wrote: I was surprised today when I read that a writer, whose work I find really inspiring, said that he actually believed in demons, as separate entities, not as part of the personality.Here's another one:(Carpenter, "The Inklings", p.175 on C S Lewis)

Not that Lewis himself was much in doubt about the reality of evil. When discussing belief in the Devil or devils he said quite categorically, "I do believe such beings exist." Indeed, by temperament he inclined strongly towards dualism, the belief that God and the Devil are equal powers at war with each other. "I have always gone as near Dualism as Christianity allows," he admitted. Though as an orthodox Christian he had to reject the fully dualist view of the world, he did believe firmly that while the power of evil could create nothing, it could infect everything.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:36 pm

I haven't made up my mind on that one though I have thought about it.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Paradox · Post by **Paradox** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:55 pm

Lon;771289 wrote: Demons only exist in our own minds.

With all due respect, where does evil come from? Our minds?

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:57 pm

weeder;771156 wrote: I most definately believe in demons. I think demons have labels. Some are less agressive than others. Some are controllable by the host, others are not controllable. Some demons are uninvited guests, some are beckoned by the host, some are firmly imbedded from birth. In the later case, the human body really is just a shell housing the demon. There is no other entity in there.That is the caase with subjects like Ted Bundy, Son of Sam. and all serial killers.

Just as there are demons in this world, there are also angels.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:59 pm

Paradox;771790 wrote: With all due respect, where does evil come from? Our minds?

Probably - man has the choice how to act.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:25 pm

I can go along with Bryn Mawr on that. I suspect there is more to it but once again we are then into the theological realm and lack the language to make any real definitive determination or description.

I do believe there is a power of evil but have no idea as to its source though I do not accept Satan as an entity. This power of evil was anthropomorphized because that was the only way they could get a grasp of the concept.

Shalom

Ted:-6

kayleneaussie · Post by **kayleneaussie** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:56 pm

No I dont believe in demons

Paradox · Post by **Paradox** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:03 pm

Bryn Mawr;771795 wrote: Probably - man has the choice how to act.

I agree, man does that the choice on how to act, but does that mean that the original source of evil comes from our mind?

If there is no supreme being to define good and evil then that would mean that nobody has the right to say what good and evil is because it differs in each individuals mind. That would mean what Hitler did was not evil because in his mind he felt it was good.

I believe there is a universal understanding of what good and evil is for the Bible states that it is written on our hearts.

Post by **spot** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:11 pm

Paradox;772283 wrote: If there is no supreme being to define good and evil then that would mean that nobody has the right to say what good and evil is because it differs in each individuals mind. That would mean what Hitler did was not evil because in his mind he felt it was good.
I've never seen that point made so effectively before, and I agree with it entirely.

theia · Post by **theia** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:15 pm

Paradox;772283 wrote: I agree, man does that the choice on how to act, but does that mean that the original source of evil comes from our mind?

If there is no supreme being to define good and evil then that would mean that nobody has the right to say what good and evil is because it differs in each individuals mind. That would mean what Hitler did was not evil because in his mind he felt it was good.

I believe there is a universal understanding of what good and evil is for the Bible states that it is written on our hearts.

That's really made me think.

What if God doesn't recognise "evil" and is pure love. Where does that leave "evil?"

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:33 pm

Paradox;772283 wrote: If there is no supreme being to define good and evil then that would mean that nobody has the right to say what good and evil is because it differs in each individuals mind. That would mean what Hitler did was not evil because in his mind he felt it was good.

This is a popular argument but has been undermined in the Euthyphro.

Could this supreme being redefine good and evil, so that what Hitler did was actually good?

If so, the ideas of good and evil are still subjective ... that is based on the whims of this powerful being. Otherwise, good and evil are defined outside the scope of this being's powers.

Post by **spot** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:36 pm

We interrupt this discussion to bring our traditional Ash Wednesday announcement.

Cursed is the man that maketh any carved or molten image, to worship it.

Cursed is he that curseth his father or mother.

Cursed is he that removeth his neighbour's landmark.

Cursed is he that maketh the blind to go out of his way.

Cursed is he that perverteth the judgement of the stranger, the fatherless, and widow.

Cursed is he that smiteth his neighbour secretly.

Cursed is he that lieth with his neighbour's wife.

Cursed is he that taketh reward to slay the innocent.

Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, and taketh man for his defence, and in his heart goeth from the Lord.

Cursed are the unmerciful, fornicators, and adulterers, covetous persons, idolaters, slanderers, drunkards, and extortioners.

Thank you for your attention. We return now to our scheduled item, Do you believe that demons exist?

theia · Post by **theia** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:04 pm

spot;772302 wrote: We interrupt this discussion to bring our traditional Ash Wednesday announcement.

Cursed is the man that maketh any carved or molten image, to worship it.

Cursed is he that curseth his father or mother.

Cursed is he that removeth his neighbour's landmark.

Cursed is he that maketh the blind to go out of his way.

Cursed is he that perverteth the judgement of the stranger, the fatherless, and widow.

Cursed is he that smiteth his neighbour secretly.

Cursed is he that lieth with his neighbour's wife.

Cursed is he that taketh reward to slay the innocent.

Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, and taketh man for his defence, and in his heart goeth from the Lord.

Cursed are the unmerciful, fornicators, and adulterers, covetous persons, idolaters, slanderers, drunkards, and extortioners.

Thank you for your attention. We return now to our scheduled item, Do you believe that demons exist?

You've frightened them all away now, Spot

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:05 pm

theia;772289 wrote: That's really made me think.

What if God doesn't recognise "evil" and is pure love. Where does that leave "evil?"

For me what is evil is given in the Bible. I'm not an expert on other religions, but I think what is considered to be "evil" is also laid out to the followers of each religion. So I think God does recognize evil.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:18 pm

Paradox;772283 wrote: I agree, man does that the choice on how to act, but does that mean that the original source of evil comes from our mind?

If there is no supreme being to define good and evil then that would mean that nobody has the right to say what good and evil is because it differs in each individuals mind. That would mean what Hitler did was not evil because in his mind he felt it was good.

I believe there is a universal understanding of what good and evil is for the Bible states that it is written on our hearts.

The way you were asking the question suggested that you didn't think so but I see no reason to think otherwise. Man is quite capable of dreaming up evil actions all on his own without bringing in Daemons to put the blame onto.

Hitler's acts are evil because they go against the accepted standards of the day. In other milieu they would have been seen as unexceptional.

There is no universal understanding of good and evil - what is considered to be commendable behaviour in one culture could be abomination in another.

I do not accept the position, put forward by Jester amongst others, that, because God created Adam and Eve and because all humanity are descended from them, all people have the laws of the bible written in their hearts. The Aborigines of Australia were isolated from the common stock for seventy thousand years, well before the Old Testament was written and with it Biblical law. The original mesolithic population of the Americas were isolated for twenty thousand years, again before Biblical law was formulated - many of their cultures incorporated human sacrifice. To say that they are to be condemned for not living according to Biblical law is totally unreasonable.

Paradox · Post by **Paradox** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:28 pm

spot;772288 wrote: I've never seen that point made so effectively before, and I agree with it entirely.

Thanks Spot!

Paradox · Post by **Paradox** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:34 pm

Sheryl;772315 wrote: For me what is evil is given in the Bible. I'm not an expert on other religions, but I think what is considered to be "evil" is also laid out to the followers of each religion. So I think God does recognize evil.

I agree!

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:54 pm

Men have tried for thousands of years to explain evil and failed. That is when man invented the anthropomorphic entity we called Satan. Actually the early Hebrews borrowed that from the Mesopotamians.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:37 pm

Jester;772352 wrote: Biblically speaking your time frames are off for the aboriginal peoples and humans as a whole. I did not say that all peoples have the law of the bible written on thier hearts, but they do have a basic law of right and wrong, (good and evil) in this conversation. I would suggest the evidence is that all societies and peoples self determine some sort of law.

My basic premise is that mankind universally establishes right and wrong, the original thought has to come from somewhere.

Here we are discussing it once again, trying to detemrine what evil is? and conversly what is Good?

Its expressly evident to me in the fact of my own free will, that I have one, and that its mine, and that I get to determine how I live. Regardless of outside circumstances I choose to do what I will, wether my fellow man calls that evil or good is still left to be subjective as veiwed from outside, but I say that it is not as viewed from inside ones own heart.

If I chose to do something that is repugnant to my conscience then true evil beckons. There is however, an element that changes my ability to view evil, and make it less evil in my own sight, a desensitization to evil from the conscience. This is my own experience I'm not siting any special study, I'm just being honest with my own will and understanding of how I react to stimuli in this world.

Its my own personal observation that two entities exist in the realm of demonic influence, one personal and one national. It seems to me that groups of humans that form a unit of some social type be it government or other group, like a church or an order, be it religious or otherwise come under the influnce of this demonic force. The method of influence is first personal in nature, the demonic influnce attacks the reasoning of the individual, usually the one with a leadership ability in the groups mentioned above. The individual then believes a concept that is contrary to the truth or reality of what is good and truthfull and right. The result is a weakening of the teaching or expression of good through that individual to the group. The group is affected by secondary influence of the person who is influnced demonically.

The goal of evil surprises me actually, it isnt to destroy the soul, although that will be the result, the goal of evil (satan) is the same as Lucifers original desire, He desires to be like the Most High God. As such the world is energized by his fellow demons, with the influence to exchange the lie that he is god the truth being that God is God.

OK, what are you timeframes? I'm going by the archaeological evidence and the commonly accepted chronology.

Whilst all societies self determine some sort of law it is very far from a universal right and wrong. The majority of cultures throughout the world over the ages of mankind have had a view of right and wrong very different from the Christian ethos. This would suggest that the basic law of good and evil is NOT derived from a common source.

I fully agree with you that your actions are the result of your own free will. This is why I was disagreeing with Paradox's s inference that evil actions are the result of a daemon's prompting. I would also agree that acting in a way that you know to be wrong is evil. Where I disagree is the proposal that knowledge of what is wrong is inbuilt.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:44 pm

I generally think that Bryn is correct on that issue.

Many cultures in the past not only thought that human sacrifice was acceptable but actually necessary. The story of Abraham and Issac arose out of such a culture where it was appropriate the sacrifice a child to a god. The ritual was usually to return to the god the first born in thanksgiving. This was not always the first born but any child.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:12 pm

Jester;772428 wrote: Im a complete creationist, that puts the earth as old as 14000 years as far as time frame. I fully realize the current scientific 'evidence' suggests otherwise, I still belive that the dating system we use is flawed and the biblical record remains correct.

My suggestion is that since God is the creator, and all mankind had uninterrupted direct access to God at one time, something happened to disrupt that, the biblical record states that everything flowed out from there, all learned and cultural behavior, so every course of humans or line of humans from Adam on either rejected Gods moral original law and set a law unto themselves, or they honored Gods moral original law and followed it, or there is a mix of the kind, some lie some truth. The fact that there are many determinations of good and evil isnt so much that there inst a perfect way, its more that man has made many ways by mixing pure truth with lie and self determined thier own way.

The essense of evil then is the destruction of Gods orginal and moral law, and the essence of good is the preservation of the original and honorable law of God. The bible as a whole records the specific relationship of the remnant that believed and tried the most to honor and pass on Gods moral law.

I don't believe that demons can possess a human to make them chose a course. I do believe they can influence by suggestion through the thought process and the majority of influnce is manifested in that way. I do acknowledge that a demon can posess a human, but the outcome renders the person incapable of coherant thought and the posession is very temporary and limited to bodily destruction. The majority of demonic influence is in what I call 'world views', in my opinon these are cultural lies that are contrary to basic scripture. The goal being to change a truth of God that is known universally into a lie, this destroys God's credibility in the eyes of man.

That being said... and I realize this sends folks right off the edge angry at me and makes me appear arrogant but, the 'christian' way IS the right way, I consider the bible to be the basic revelation of God's moral law. All other religions are merely a philisophical derivitive of a self determined 'way' containing some truth but mostly lies.

We are all accountable to the creator, not the other way around.

As an aside, I thought the generally derived date was around 4,500 BC , i.e. 6,500 year ago rather than 10,000 or 14,000.

As I said in a previous post, the concept that God created Adam and Eve and gave them laws and that Adam and Eve are the forebearers of all humanity therefore every man, woman and child is answerable to the law of the Bible whether they know it or not is sophistry of the worst order.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this one.

Paradox · Post by **Paradox** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:28 pm

Jester;772352 wrote: Biblically speaking your time frames are off for the aboriginal peoples and humans as a whole. I did not say that all peoples have the law of the bible written on thier hearts, but they do have a basic law of right and wrong, (good and evil) in this conversation. I would suggest the evidence is that all societies and peoples self determine some sort of law.

My basic premise is that mankind universally establishes right and wrong, the original thought has to come from somewhere.

Here we are discussing it once again, trying to detemrine what evil is? and conversly what is Good?

Its expressly evident to me in the fact of my own free will, that I have one, and that its mine, and that I get to determine how I live. Regardless of outside circumstances I choose to do what I will, wether my fellow man calls that evil or good is still left to be subjective as veiwed from outside, but I say that it is not as viewed from inside ones own heart.

If I chose to do something that is repugnant to my conscience then true evil beckons. There is however, an element that changes my ability to view evil, and make it less evil in my own sight, a desensitization to evil from the conscience. This is my own experience I'm not siting any special study, I'm just being honest with my own will and understanding of how I react to stimuli in this world.

Its my own personal observation that two entities exist in the realm of demonic influence, one personal and one national. It seems to me that groups of humans that form a unit of some social type be it government or other group, like a church or an order, be it religious or otherwise come under the influnce of this demonic force. The method of influence is first personal in nature, the demonic influnce attacks the reasoning of the individual, usually the one with a leadership ability in the groups mentioned above. The individual then believes a concept that is contrary to the truth or reality of what is good and truthfull and right. The result is a weakening of the teaching or expression of good through that individual to the group. The group is affected by secondary influence of the person who is influnced demonically.

The goal of evil surprises me actually, it isnt to destroy the soul, although that will be the result, the goal of evil (satan) is the same as Lucifers original desire, He desires to be like the Most High God. As such the world is energized by his fellow demons, with the influence to exchange the lie that he is god the truth being that God is God.

:yh_clap:yh_clap Wow!!! Very well stated, I totally agree with that!

Paradox · Post by **Paradox** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:56 pm

Jester;772428 wrote: Im a complete creationist, that puts the earth as old as 14000 years as far as time frame. I fully realize the current scientific 'evidence' suggests otherwise, I still belive that the dating system we use is flawed and the biblical record remains correct.

My suggestion is that since God is the creator, and all mankind had uninterrupted direct access to God at one time, something happened to disrupt that, the biblical record states that everything flowed out from there, all learned and cultural behavior, so every course of humans or line of humans from Adam on either rejected Gods moral original law and set a law unto themselves, or they honored Gods moral original law and followed it, or there is a mix of the kind, some lie some truth. The fact that there are many determinations of good and evil isnt so much that there inst a perfect way, its more that man has made many ways by mixing pure truth with lie and self determined thier own way.

The essense of evil then is the destruction of Gods orginal and moral law, and the essence of good is the preservation of the original and honorable law of God. The bible as a whole records the specific relationship of the remnant that believed and tried the most to honor and pass on Gods moral law.

I don't believe that demons can possess a human to make them chose a course. I do believe they can influence by suggestion through the thought process and the majority of influnce is manifested in that way. I do acknowledge that a demon can posess a human, but the outcome renders the person incapable of coherant thought and the posession is very temporary and limited to bodily destruction. The majority of demonic influence is in what I call 'world views', in my opinon these are cultural lies that are contrary to basic scripture. The goal being to change a truth of God that is known universally into a lie, this destroys God's credibility in the eyes of man.

That being said... and I realize this sends folks right off the edge angry at me and makes me appear arrogant but, the 'christian' way IS the right way, I consider the bible to be the basic revelation of God's moral law. All other religions are merely a philisophical derivitive of a self determined 'way' containing some truth but mostly lies.

We are all accountable to the creator, not the other way around.

I couldn't agree more!

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:19 pm

"But the 'Christian' way is the right way".

As a Christian pluralist I have to disagree with this statement. Exclusivism has no place within the Christian family or within the family of humanity. This is one of the evils produced by the reformation.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:04 pm

jester:-6

That is your interpretation.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:40 pm

jester:-6

Of course it is and you are entitled to have it.

However, it is time to realize there are other points of view in the world that could be equally as valid.

Shalom

Ted:-6

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:14 pm

We all think stuff. It helps us explain the inexplicable, thereby making life meaningful, or at least bearable. I'm continually amazed by the creative constructs we erect - from evidence that is slim and again mainly depends of what we think and construct. I envy the certainties of some - life would be much simpler if - to use some constructed symbolism - real light shone in our darkness, our cloud of unknowing.