Sheez, maybe customers should never let l person wearing a hijab serve them - and how would that go down ? This whole thing is getting ridiculous, but then we should not stoop to their level either.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770
Muslim M&S worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother, customer claims
Last updated at 16:02pm on 15th January 2008
This children's book was branded 'unclean' by a store assistant
A Muslim store worker at Marks & Spencer refused to serve a customer buying a children's book on biblical stories because she said it was "unclean".
Sally Friday, a customer at a branch of one of the famous stores, felt publicly humiliated when she tried to pay for First Bible Stories as a gift for her young grandson.
When the grandmother put the book on the counter, the assistant refused to touch it, declared it was unclean and then summoned another member of staff to deal with the purchase.
Mrs Friday was so upset that she has now complained to the store's manager.
Politicians and religious leaders supported her in condemning the high street chain and it has reignited the debate over religious beliefs in the workplace.
Conservative MP Philip Davies said the refusal to serve Mrs Friday, 69, was "unacceptable" and "damaging" to community relations.
Inayat Bunglawala, assistant secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, described the assistant's comments as "offensive" and called for Marks & Spencer to conduct an investigation.
He said: "This appears to be a very regrettable incident and the 'unclean' remark was clearly very offensive and unacceptable.
"Many Biblical stories complement the teachings of the Koran. We hope that M&S will investigate this incident."
The incident has reignited debate over religious beliefs in the workplace
A spokesman for Marks & Spencer today said that an investigation into the alleged incident was under way.
She added: "We are surprised by this alleged incident and are investigating it thoroughly.
"It appears that there has been some misunderstanding over what was said.
"We have apologised to Mrs Friday over any distress caused."
A source close to the shop assistant claimed there had been a misunderstanding.
She said: "I think there was some confusion over what the customer heard."
Mrs Friday said that the incident had ruined her trip to the sales in Reading, Berks, with her daughter.
She said: "I went to the till and heard the girl say it was unclean and then she got someone else to serve me.
"At first I wasn't sure what was going on and then I realised she was wearing a headdress and I clicked that the title of the book had Bible in it.
"I felt very humiliated and immediately left the store."
Mrs Friday, who lives in Old Basing, Hants, went on: I have given it careful thought and still feel humiliated that because I am purchasing a children's Bible story book, a cashier is able to object and refuse to put it through the till.
"Had this been a copy of the Koran I am confident any Christian person would be happy to do her job, and for this to happen in a Marks & Spencer of all places beggars belief.
"I am not racist but I have vowed never to let a person wearing a head-dress serve me again.
"It will be a long, long time before I shop again at M&S."
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
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freetobeme
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uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
senior's politics and discussion
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RedGlitter
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uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
I'm curious why the woman felt humiliated by this. The Muslim woman (by employee standards) was clearly in the wrong, the other woman had nothing to be humiliated about. This is like Jews refusing to sell pork in their delis or something. There's a limit. Or should be.
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
freetobeme;758760 wrote: "I am not racist but I have vowed never to let a person wearing a head-dress serve me again.
I don't know ... but that kinda sounds bigoted to me.
I don't know ... but that kinda sounds bigoted to me.
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
What I found quite interesting was the response from the, on the surface of it, tolerant Muslim council member in the response that the assistant was wrong in calling the biblical book "unclean" and refusing to touch it not because in general its highly insulting and utterly intolerant of a shop assistant (in general) to refuse to sell someone a book (of any religion) that is on sale in a normal shop (not a Mosque or a religious store) because they don't believe in that religion, but because the biblical stories are "okayed" by the Koran.
This would suggest that all legitimacy for actions like these should be based on whether its ok based on the Koran? So what about the Vedic scriptures, or a book on scientology, or a Harry Potter book, which do not relate to anything in the Koran? It would then be OK? The point is that it doesn't matter in the U.K. whether something is sanctioned "Koranically" or not, the UK is not a Muslim country and constantly basing the legitimacy of whether something is "acceptable" by Koranic teaching is completely specious and part of this general trend among even pretty tolerant Muslims in non Muslim countries (though not all) to want to define everything by the terms of their own particularlist religion.
This would suggest that all legitimacy for actions like these should be based on whether its ok based on the Koran? So what about the Vedic scriptures, or a book on scientology, or a Harry Potter book, which do not relate to anything in the Koran? It would then be OK? The point is that it doesn't matter in the U.K. whether something is sanctioned "Koranically" or not, the UK is not a Muslim country and constantly basing the legitimacy of whether something is "acceptable" by Koranic teaching is completely specious and part of this general trend among even pretty tolerant Muslims in non Muslim countries (though not all) to want to define everything by the terms of their own particularlist religion.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
Galbally;758902 wrote: What I found quite interesting was the response from the, on the surface of it, tolerant Muslim council member in the response that the assistant was wrong in calling the biblical book "unclean" and refusing to touch it not because in general its highly insulting and utterly intolerant of a shop assistant (in general) to refuse to sell someone a book (of any religion) that is on sale in a normal shop (not a Mosque or a religious store) because they don't believe in that religion, but because the biblical stories are "okayed" by the Koran.
That's a subtle point ... I'm impressed
I suppose we could ask what the target audience of his comment was... as an argument is typically based the assumptions of the target audience. If he's talking to a Muslim audience, it's natural for him to argue for tolerance on those grounds.
Similarly, when talking to Christians I typically support my points of view from the Bible, when possible, even though I'm not a Christian myself. For example, I might remind the lady that Christ urged people to turn the other cheek and forgive.
It might be a dialectic argument (IIRC) on his part ...
That's a subtle point ... I'm impressed
I suppose we could ask what the target audience of his comment was... as an argument is typically based the assumptions of the target audience. If he's talking to a Muslim audience, it's natural for him to argue for tolerance on those grounds.
Similarly, when talking to Christians I typically support my points of view from the Bible, when possible, even though I'm not a Christian myself. For example, I might remind the lady that Christ urged people to turn the other cheek and forgive.
It might be a dialectic argument (IIRC) on his part ...
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
Well this comes as no surprise the muslims like to cry foul for everything, as there agenda is for us infidels, yes that is what the call christian, jews, buddist etc
they want all ppl on planet earth 2 revert, yes revert, not convert, and the signs are all there I see it on many Muslim forums, they regard the rest of the human race as inferior to them, they call us kaffirs {spellin] I personally want every person to live in peace and harmony not wanting to kill ppl who have a different faith, revelations has a few clues to the final days and the religious war. Not a practising Catholic, but come push to shove I will die for my Lord and Saviour Jesus. Over billion muslims growing more each yr, they can attack our beliefs, but as soon as someone says something about there faith, tickets for us, to be honest majority of muslim are kind careing ppl but it is tge fundenmentalist that like to rock the boat
they want all ppl on planet earth 2 revert, yes revert, not convert, and the signs are all there I see it on many Muslim forums, they regard the rest of the human race as inferior to them, they call us kaffirs {spellin] I personally want every person to live in peace and harmony not wanting to kill ppl who have a different faith, revelations has a few clues to the final days and the religious war. Not a practising Catholic, but come push to shove I will die for my Lord and Saviour Jesus. Over billion muslims growing more each yr, they can attack our beliefs, but as soon as someone says something about there faith, tickets for us, to be honest majority of muslim are kind careing ppl but it is tge fundenmentalist that like to rock the boat
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
yaaarrrgg;758910 wrote: That's a subtle point ... I'm impressed
I suppose we could ask what the target audience of his comment was... as an argument is typically based the assumptions of the target audience. If he's talking to a Muslim audience, it's natural for him to argue for tolerance on those grounds.
Similarly, when talking to Christians I typically support my points of view from the Bible, when possible, even though I'm not a Christian myself. For example, I might remind the lady that Christ urged people to turn the other cheek and forgive.
It might be a dialectic argument (IIRC) on his part ...
I understand your point, it is useful to use cultural references to specific audiences. Though I think the main point is that this occurred in the UK which is a secular state, where the vast majority of the population are native, white, and overwhelmingly Christian. If a white British Christian discriminated against anyone because they did not meet any of those 3 specific criteria in the UK they could face prosecution and cultural sensitivities would not be a defence. So (as a British person) the representative of the Muslim council should also take into account the cultural and religious views of non muslims, as well of course as Muslims also. TO be fair, it probably wasn't intentional, but just indicative of the exclusivist mindset.
I suppose we could ask what the target audience of his comment was... as an argument is typically based the assumptions of the target audience. If he's talking to a Muslim audience, it's natural for him to argue for tolerance on those grounds.
Similarly, when talking to Christians I typically support my points of view from the Bible, when possible, even though I'm not a Christian myself. For example, I might remind the lady that Christ urged people to turn the other cheek and forgive.
It might be a dialectic argument (IIRC) on his part ...
I understand your point, it is useful to use cultural references to specific audiences. Though I think the main point is that this occurred in the UK which is a secular state, where the vast majority of the population are native, white, and overwhelmingly Christian. If a white British Christian discriminated against anyone because they did not meet any of those 3 specific criteria in the UK they could face prosecution and cultural sensitivities would not be a defence. So (as a British person) the representative of the Muslim council should also take into account the cultural and religious views of non muslims, as well of course as Muslims also. TO be fair, it probably wasn't intentional, but just indicative of the exclusivist mindset.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
Jester;758932 wrote: its only the beginning...
Oh no, its way past the beginning, this is a very old story that is actually so old that most Western people were not aware of it, but that's changing again.
Oh no, its way past the beginning, this is a very old story that is actually so old that most Western people were not aware of it, but that's changing again.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
fuzzy butt;758946 wrote: bibles shouldn't be sold they should be given as gifts to all people
Hmm - at whose expense?
Hmm - at whose expense?
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freetobeme
- Posts: 258
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uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
Galbally;758902 wrote: The point is that it doesn't matter in the UK whether something is sanctioned Koranically or not, the UK is not a Muslim country and constantly basing the legitimacy of whether something is acceptably by Koranic teaching is specious and part of this general trend among even pretty tolerant Muslims in non Muslim countries (though not all) to want to define everything by the terms of their own particularlist religion.
Exactly, well put. I would like to see the reaction to the reverse - a Christian clerk refusing to touch a Koran or other religious book. I wonder how fast that clerk would be fired, and no obfuscating by the company saying it was 'just a misunderstanding'
Jester is right, it is just the beginning, we have instances of Muslim cab drivers who refuse to accept blind people with a guide dogs ( based on religious beliefs )
http://tinyurl.com/yv3pz5 here and other countries.
How would you feel if a cashier made you swipe your own groceries because of his/her religious beliefs? http://www.buzz.mn/?q=node/898
Not to mention the recent 'honour killing' in Toronto...
Maybe we (as in Country/gov't) are not making it clear that we do not discriminate, even if our religion condones it.
Exactly, well put. I would like to see the reaction to the reverse - a Christian clerk refusing to touch a Koran or other religious book. I wonder how fast that clerk would be fired, and no obfuscating by the company saying it was 'just a misunderstanding'
Jester is right, it is just the beginning, we have instances of Muslim cab drivers who refuse to accept blind people with a guide dogs ( based on religious beliefs )
http://tinyurl.com/yv3pz5 here and other countries.
How would you feel if a cashier made you swipe your own groceries because of his/her religious beliefs? http://www.buzz.mn/?q=node/898
Not to mention the recent 'honour killing' in Toronto...
Maybe we (as in Country/gov't) are not making it clear that we do not discriminate, even if our religion condones it.
senior's politics and discussion
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
freetobeme;758760 wrote:
"I am not racist but I have vowed never to let a person wearing a head-dress serve me again.
"It will be a long, long time before I shop again at M&S."
lolz!@ the bit in bold.
I expect no less from the daily mail.
"I am not racist but I have vowed never to let a person wearing a head-dress serve me again.
"It will be a long, long time before I shop again at M&S."
lolz!@ the bit in bold.
I expect no less from the daily mail.
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
This brings to mind the story not too long ago where the muslim chemist refused to dispense the morning after pill.
What next....... The vegetarian at McDonalds refusing to serve a big mac?
What next....... The vegetarian at McDonalds refusing to serve a big mac?
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
abbey;758965 wrote: This brings to mind the story not too long ago where the muslim chemist refused to dispense the morning after pill.
What next....... The vegetarian at McDonalds refusing to serve a big mac?
My friend had a woman refuse to make an appointment at the docs for a termination as she was a Catholic.
There's nowt as queer as folk.
What next....... The vegetarian at McDonalds refusing to serve a big mac?
My friend had a woman refuse to make an appointment at the docs for a termination as she was a Catholic.
There's nowt as queer as folk.
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
freetobeme;758958 wrote: Exactly, well put. I would like to see the reaction to the reverse - a Christian clerk refusing to touch a Koran or other religious book. I wonder how fast that clerk would be fired, and no obfuscating by the company saying it was 'just a misunderstanding'
Jester is right, it is just the beginning, we have instances of Muslim cab drivers who refuse to accept blind people with a guide dogs ( based on religious beliefs )
http://tinyurl.com/yv3pz5 here and other countries.
How would you feel if a cashier made you swipe your own groceries because of his/her religious beliefs? http://www.buzz.mn/?q=node/898
Not to mention the recent 'honour killing' in Toronto...
Maybe we (as in Country/gov't) are not making it clear that we do not discriminate, even if our religion condones it.
Yeah, I misspelled "aceptable" as "acceptably" though.
Jester is right, it is just the beginning, we have instances of Muslim cab drivers who refuse to accept blind people with a guide dogs ( based on religious beliefs )
http://tinyurl.com/yv3pz5 here and other countries.
How would you feel if a cashier made you swipe your own groceries because of his/her religious beliefs? http://www.buzz.mn/?q=node/898
Not to mention the recent 'honour killing' in Toronto...
Maybe we (as in Country/gov't) are not making it clear that we do not discriminate, even if our religion condones it.
Yeah, I misspelled "aceptable" as "acceptably" though.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
abbey;758965 wrote: This brings to mind the story not too long ago where the muslim chemist refused to dispense the morning after pill.
There are plenty of Christians who do the same. Also, there are Christians that blow up abortion clinics.
There are plenty of Christians who do the same. Also, there are Christians that blow up abortion clinics.
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
Now I'm assuming that M and S will not want a repeat of a similar incident, and presumably they will have to revise some of their induction/training programmes for staff. That could prove a little "thorny" couldn't it, in respect of trying not to cause offence to staff from various religious groups? Or perhaps being accused of discrimination on religious grounds?
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
yaaarrrgg;758978 wrote: There are plenty of Christians who do the same. Also, there are Christians that blow up abortion clinics.
My point was not the fact that the worker was Muslim but of ethics.
Would the same worker at M&S refuse to pass a packet of pork through the checkout in the food hall for instance?
My point was not the fact that the worker was Muslim but of ethics.
Would the same worker at M&S refuse to pass a packet of pork through the checkout in the food hall for instance?
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freetobeme
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uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
abbey;758983 wrote: My point was not the fact that the worker was Muslim but of ethics.
Would the same worker at M&S refuse to pass a packet of pork through the checkout in the food hall for instance?
Probably, it's allready been done, see the link I posted earlier.
As far as Christians blowing up clinics, exactly how many have done that - very few. Those who do are caught and punished.
Would the same worker at M&S refuse to pass a packet of pork through the checkout in the food hall for instance?
Probably, it's allready been done, see the link I posted earlier.
As far as Christians blowing up clinics, exactly how many have done that - very few. Those who do are caught and punished.
senior's politics and discussion
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
freetobeme;758995 wrote: Probably, it's allready been done, see the link I posted earlier.
As far as Christians blowing up clinics, exactly how many have done that - very few. Those who do are caught and punished.
It's not as rare as you might think ... looks to be in the hundreds:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm
In my town, after 19 whacko Muslim guys blew up the WTC, a drunk Christian drove his truck into the local Muslim mosque. If this were a Muslim man attacking a Christian church, it would have made the national news. But it hardly made a blip on even the local news.
As far as Christians blowing up clinics, exactly how many have done that - very few. Those who do are caught and punished.
It's not as rare as you might think ... looks to be in the hundreds:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm
In my town, after 19 whacko Muslim guys blew up the WTC, a drunk Christian drove his truck into the local Muslim mosque. If this were a Muslim man attacking a Christian church, it would have made the national news. But it hardly made a blip on even the local news.
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lemon_and_mint
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uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
in defence, if this did happen, the server asked someone else to serve the woman.
also the assistant has not been asked for her side of the story - she was working on a checkout where liquids are often spilled, perhaps she actually said, "its not clean" meaning the checkout area, and went to clean it up, or maybe she was due a break, and said that?
also the assistant has not been asked for her side of the story - she was working on a checkout where liquids are often spilled, perhaps she actually said, "its not clean" meaning the checkout area, and went to clean it up, or maybe she was due a break, and said that?
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lemon_and_mint
- Posts: 928
- Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:04 pm
uslim MS worker refused to sell 'unclean' Bible book to grandmother
Jester;759241 wrote: You know what, there really is no defense of this, I agree and see your point that we need to make sure that it happend the way the complaint was lodged thats a given, but...
IF...
It happened as it says then the muslum server was wrong, and should be reprimanded as a reminder that when you live in a world of many others, and you make a choice that limits how you might interact with them, then you are the one to show deference NOT the ones in the world.
For instance, I dont use alcohol as a general rule nor do I advocate other use it either, but, I dont have the right to force my opinions on others or refuse to do part of my job if that part of my job is the normal job duties.
The deference that I show in that instance is that I chose a job that does not serve or advocate the use of alcohol.
I dont work for a number of industries because I have my own personal convictions about life.
If for some reason I had to take a job as a bartender I'd have to suck up my beliefs and serve, or I'd expect to be fired!
You cant use a job to make your religious stand, your not on your own time, you are being paid to work for the company and abide by their rules they lay down in the process of doing that job.
I agree with what you say in general, just that if such an incident happened to me, I dont think I would be bothered about it as long as i was served, however i can't believe it did as Marks and Spencer sells alcohol, and all sorts of pork and nonhalal meat, as well as books of bible stories and necklaces with crosses on, the assistant would never serve anyone.
IF...
It happened as it says then the muslum server was wrong, and should be reprimanded as a reminder that when you live in a world of many others, and you make a choice that limits how you might interact with them, then you are the one to show deference NOT the ones in the world.
For instance, I dont use alcohol as a general rule nor do I advocate other use it either, but, I dont have the right to force my opinions on others or refuse to do part of my job if that part of my job is the normal job duties.
The deference that I show in that instance is that I chose a job that does not serve or advocate the use of alcohol.
I dont work for a number of industries because I have my own personal convictions about life.
If for some reason I had to take a job as a bartender I'd have to suck up my beliefs and serve, or I'd expect to be fired!
You cant use a job to make your religious stand, your not on your own time, you are being paid to work for the company and abide by their rules they lay down in the process of doing that job.
I agree with what you say in general, just that if such an incident happened to me, I dont think I would be bothered about it as long as i was served, however i can't believe it did as Marks and Spencer sells alcohol, and all sorts of pork and nonhalal meat, as well as books of bible stories and necklaces with crosses on, the assistant would never serve anyone.