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koan
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Post by koan »

rjwould;746759 wrote: I'm sorry you suffer as you do. I hope one day you can understand and accept who you were and where you were at that time of your life and you made the best decision you could at the time.

Something that jumped out at me in your post was the use of the word "evil". Would you mind expanding on that further? If it is too personal, I understand.

I understand the religious right sees the world through a lens of "good and evil" and is always in a defensive and warrior type posture when discussing difficult issues where they have no ability to empathize, but you don't strike me as a religious fundamentalist.


LOL

I'm so far from "religious right" I couldn't help laughing. I'm pagan.

I did recover from my experience. If you reread the story I told you'll see that. My current point of view is based on what I know from my own experience. I know I killed a baby. I've learned to live with that but I'm trying to let other people know what they need to understand before they make their choice.

Evil was a convenient thing for me to believe in at the time. Hence why I say I was insane.
koan
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Post by koan »

rjwould;746786 wrote: So, where do you stand on the morning after pill? And do you believe life begins at conception? Just asking!


I think it is incredibly terrible what such things do to the female body.

I also think it's the best way to kill the baby and not know whether you killed or not, as the pregnancy is unconfirmed.
koan
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Post by koan »

rjwould;746799 wrote: It sounds like a yes on the conception question then.


Yes. I felt the moment of conception. I didn't have the luxury of pretending it hadn't happened for even a day.
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minks
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Post by minks »

40+ female, anti-abortion, pro-education.

In my opinion abortion is an easy out when a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy. UGH what about adoption, how many people in this world can NOT have babies... and how must they feel when they hear of yet another babies life being taken.

All living creatures have rights.
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minks
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Post by minks »

rjwould;746854 wrote: Seems to be anything but easy in many, many cases

Completely agree! I would be willing to accept the pro life position as a compromise if sanctity of life included all living creatures. That will not happen though because the vast majority of Christians who feel so strongly about this issue only care about the life of unborn human children and no one else.


with the advancements of birth control these days there should be no unwanted pregnancies, and I must adjust my stand slightly, in the case of rape I suppose there lies my sitting on the fence attitude.

Yes I suppose it's not so cut and dry and simple when it comes to adoption (both giving up a child or adopting a child) this too adds to struggles a pregnant woman faces as well.
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suzycreamcheese
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Post by suzycreamcheese »

minks;746850 wrote: 40+ female, anti-abortion, pro-education.

In my opinion abortion is an easy out when a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy. UGH what about adoption, how many people in this world can NOT have babies... and how must they feel when they hear of yet another babies life being taken.

All living creatures have rights.


Adoption still requires a woman to go through a pregnancy and birth she doesnt want. Im all for adoption if that is whats right for the woman, but not enforced pregnancy and birth.

After giving birth naturally to a 10lb baby with no pain relief, and knowing other people who nearly split from front to back during childbirth amongst other permanent damage - If anyone else caused damage like that to someones body theyd be arrested for assault. Its not a walk in the park, with a "oh well, just get it adopted afterwards" Its a serious thing.

Children are wonderful IF YOU WANT TO HAVE ONE. If you dont, you shouldnt be forced. Thankfully long gone are the days in the west with chldren aplenty in childrens homes with noone wanting them. Every child should be a wanted child.

If abortion is done early, I just fail to see a problem. Its not a conscious lifeform at the stage the vast vast majority of abortions are carried out. If someone wants to personify an embryo at that stage, then thats lovely for them - ive done it myself, but thats only as a bonding thing - not because its true. To use it as a guilt trip against others is wrong.
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

rjwould;746854 wrote: Seems to be anything but easy in many, many cases

Completely agree! I would be willing to accept the pro life position as a compromise if sanctity of life included all living creatures. That will not happen though because the vast majority of Christians who feel so strongly about this issue only care about the life of unborn human children and no one else.


Wow! The value of human life is negotiable based on how the people you disagree with adjust their positions. You just said it's okay to murder unborn humans until animals are considered to have equal value. :-5

I wish I could stick with this discussion but I keep having to work.
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minks
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Post by minks »

suzycreamcheese;746856 wrote: Adoption still requires a woman to go through a pregnancy and birth she doesnt want. Im all for adoption if that is whats right for the woman, but not enforced pregnancy and birth.

After giving birth naturally to a 10lb baby with no pain relief, and knowing other people who nearly split from front to back during childbirth amongst other permanent damage - If anyone else caused damage like that to someones body theyd be arrested for assault. Its not a walk in the park, with a "oh well, just get it adopted afterwards" Its a serious thing.

Children are wonderful IF YOU WANT TO HAVE ONE. If you dont, you shouldnt be forced. Thankfully long gone are the days in the west with chldren aplenty in childrens homes with noone wanting them. Every child should be a wanted child.

If abortion is done early, I just fail to see a problem. Its not a conscious lifeform at the stage the vast vast majority of abortions are carried out. If someone wants to personify an embryo at that stage, then thats lovely for them - ive done it myself, but thats only as a bonding thing - not because its true. To use it as a guilt trip against others is wrong.


absolutely however if one does not wish/choose to have children, they should take all necessary precautions to prevent the pregnancy, there lies pro choice in my opinion. Here in this city, birth control is free if you are unable to pay for it or have health coverage. Even at that it is not a costly pill. Sorry I say the choice should be made way before one even considers sex.

Terminating a pregnancy is a sad sad "after thought".
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

koan;746754 wrote: I sincerely thought that it was only my life that I'd be affecting when I made my choice and convinced myself that the thing inside of me was evil so that I could allow myself to kill it. I consider myself to have been somewhat insane when I made the choice I made. I panicked and didn't cope with the stress. I was unable to heal from the trauma of the abortion until I recognised that I had murdered my baby, given it as close to a proper burial as I could, and asked for forgiveness.

If the ability for me to do what I did was taken away, I must admit that I'd not fight for my right to repeat the insanity. I don't feel right telling other women what they should or shouldn't do as that would make me a hypocrite. I must live with knowing I murdered a baby. There is no going back. I wish I could believe that it wasn't a real person yet. I wanted to believe that. I really did. We tell ourselves all kinds of things to justify what we do. I could never have an abortion again and wouldn't have if I'd known what I was doing. As it is, I can't undo it but I can offer my experience so others realise what choice they are making.

I think abortion is murder but I also think that our society is murdering people when we fail to take care of those living in poverty. We should live in shame for as long as anyone in our country starves while others eat cake. Anyone who wants abortion made illegal needs to be at the forefront of an anti-poverty activist group and have proposals for how society will provide for those who need help.


Let me just say that I now have a great deal of respect for you.
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Post by minks »

rjwould;746861 wrote: With all due respect, I didn't see where koan asked for your forgiveness. Why in the world should she or anyone else care whether or not you or I forgive them for making a personal choice like abortion? Your not that person, nor are you their God. That is what I'm talking about with christians, they need a better understanding of boundaries.


rj that is jesters personal choice you should not deny that.
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minks
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Post by minks »

rjwould;746866 wrote: I am simply stating it doesn't matter.

When a person says something to another person they usually do it because it matters or is relevant.


Oh I think it matters.

sorry jester I spoke for ya there zipping my lips now.
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

rjwould;746865 wrote: Rephrasing my words, clint? The word murder is your word, not mine. I don't consider abortion, murder.


Very well, if you prefer to refer to it as killing that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that when abortion is over an innocent human life is gone.
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

rjwould;746876 wrote: I never used the word "killing" either. If you're going to quote me, then quote me, but don't rephrase what I've said. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy.


You do know there is no pregnancy without new life, don't you?
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minks
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Post by minks »

rjwould;746879 wrote: What exactly will you carry for her, jester? Apropos user name BTW.:)


pain shared is pain halved.
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

rjwould;746883 wrote: No, I don't know that, you do?


Absolutely, YES.
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Post by suzycreamcheese »

minks;746862 wrote: absolutely however if one does not wish/choose to have children, they should take all necessary precautions to prevent the pregnancy, there lies pro choice in my opinion. Here in this city, birth control is free if you are unable to pay for it or have health coverage. Even at that it is not a costly pill. Sorry I say the choice should be made way before one even considers sex.

Terminating a pregnancy is a sad sad "after thought".


Absolutely. Contraception first!! Unfortunately no contraception is 100% effective even if used correctly.
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Post by Clint »

rjwould;746891 wrote: Then is God a murderer?


Now you believe in God. I'm sorry, you are too confused to have a discussion. I agree with Jester. It's time to end this thread.
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Post by minks »

suzycreamcheese;746889 wrote: Absolutely. Contraception first!! Unfortunately no contraception is 100% effective even if used correctly.


nor is pregnancy 100% every time a woman has sex, however I would hazard a guess that in the right combination pills/patch and a condom, you have to be at about 99.99% protected. Sure beats not even trying.
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minks
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Post by minks »

rjwould;746896 wrote: Please enlighten me. How is it that anyone except the individual can share in this pain? For one, you are trivializing what the person has or is experiencing by saying you can carry the pain for them, even some of it.

The only person a lady whom has chosen abortion needs forgiveness from is herself, and anyone she believes it necessary to ask for it. I simply did not see where koan asked jester for forgiveness.


to be blunt misery loves company. I don't mean that in a negative or nasty way. I mean that when an individual is in pain, there is relief in sharing. Nobody is saying we feel their pain 100% but more like we have felt similar, and there is relief in sharing, and there is relief in the support received. Mate I have to say many many of us here on FG have had some form of pain relief from sharing our stories and experiences here. It's comforting to humans to know they are not alone and that others are willing to listen, sometimes that is half the battle, letting it out from within ourselves. This forum has some amazing bonds that have developed over days, months and years, you are (I believe) an FG infant with lots to learn about us. Please understand anyone can forgive another when it comes to taking their stand in what the believe. Jester is anti abortion, yet he chose to forgive Koan her choice. I don't care weather she asked him to or not, it's a choice he made to let her know he isn't begrudging her past choice.
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minks
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Post by minks »

rjwould;746898 wrote: No, I don't believe in God, but you do, so is the God you believe in a murderer? And does he live up to your standards, or his own for that matter?

BTW--I don't blame you for backing out...


you seem pretty set on stomping on toes in here why? For a newby you need to practice a bit more tack. I think you have something intelligent to say, I hope you can prove so before you get into hotter water.
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minks
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Post by minks »

Jester;746903 wrote: RJ,

You forget what humanity is, we are all interlocked by compassion, when we will our understanding on somone and they accept it in sencerity then we have connected on a level and made each other feel that they care and are cared for.

Can we really take some of the burden in real ife, no, were not close enough to do that. But we can assist by well wishing. Its still felt and its still real in that sense.

Trivializing? Me? You say that aborting a child is just a simple decision rather than murder. And you say I'm trivializing?


want my willow switch Jester old buddy?
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Post by suzycreamcheese »

for what its worth, and also not knowing the little idiosyncransies of forumgarden as opposed to any other internet forum, i also find "i forgive you" a bit of a strange choice of words unless it something that was particularly done aginst you personally.

Although I guess thats the debate going totally off topic.
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minks
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Post by minks »

rjwould;746912 wrote: You seem sensitive. Because I haven't posted here for very long means I should sit back and not respond to people who are impolite towards women and others who understand the need for abortion and choice in general? When do I have your permission to go at it, minks?

Are clint and jester your little boy's whom you need to defend? Why the personal attacks when I am not even really having much of a discussion with you, minks? Are you a fellow christian?


I am sensitive. No I am not telling you to sit back and not respond but am suggesting you be a little less "all judging". You don't have my permission for anything, it's not up to me to hand it out, so don't ask me. Um no I don't "need" to defend anyone who can stand their own ground. I have not attacked you in any way, the willow switch comment is a mere giggle point for a little levity, the rest is my opinions that come from my own beliefs. I am a fellow christian at my own level.
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minks
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Post by minks »

suzycreamcheese;746918 wrote: for what its worth, and also not knowing the little idiosyncransies of forumgarden as opposed to any other internet forum, i also find "i forgive you" a bit of a strange choice of words unless it something that was particularly done aginst you personally.

Although I guess thats the debate going totally off topic.


I suppose it's a matter of interpretation isn't it, as with many things.
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koan
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Post by koan »

Jester;746873 wrote: I think you ought to keep your nose out of it and let Koan recieve it in the spirit in which it is sent.




your comment was well received :)

I question how terminating a pregnancy can be seen as separate from terminating a life, rj. The state of being pregnant is the state of carrying a foetus. They are not separate but intricately linked. A nursing mother who no longer carries a child in her body but chooses to breast feed is also directly affecting the health of her child if she takes drugs and nurses. Children's advocacy groups are now pressing to make smoking in homes and vehicles with children illegal. There are many ways in which our personal choices of what to do with our bodies does not merely affect ourselves.
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Post by minks »

rjwould;746926 wrote: Be careful because your post count is even lower than mine. While I agree with you, together we don't have the right to say too much.

Do I have that about right, minks?
Take it as you wish.

I tried to give you a little insight to FG structure and style, so be it, use it as you see fit. Again you may want to read back on some of my posts where I stated, I believe you may have some value to your posting, just your approach is a little "off". Simply my opinion. FG is the internet I don't make the rules, nor do I care to make them but I have seen what works and what doesn't consider it fair and unbiased suggestions from me to you.

And on that note I am off. Have a nice time RJ, and remember not everybody starts out as your enemy.
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Post by suzycreamcheese »

koan;746925 wrote: your comment was well received :)

I question how terminating a pregnancy can be seen as separate from terminating a life, rj. The state of being pregnant is the state of carrying a foetus. They are not separate but intricately linked. A nursing mother who no longer carries a child in her body but chooses to breast feed is also directly affecting the health of her child if she takes drugs and nurses. Children's advocacy groups are now pressing to make smoking in homes and vehicles with children illegal. There are many ways in which our personal choices of what to do with our bodies does not merely affect ourselves.


A nursing mother is nourishing her child, but its still an action that could, if necessary be done by someone else.

If it were possible to safely transplant a foetus into another womb, then thats one thing, but they cant, so i dont see why a woman should have to carry it if she doesnt want to.

The fact that you feel a lot of guilt for what you did is very sad. We all do what we feel is the right decision for us at the time, and you seem to be being very hard on yourself. In hindsight, it maybe was the wrong decision for you, but that doesnt make the act wrong in itself.

I hope you find peace
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minks
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Post by minks »

rjwould;746932 wrote: Whom have I judged besides the notion of God? Would you please show me the posts. If you mean having a opinion or challenging others opinions is judging then we just disagree.


can't find where I said that. I felt you were judging people like Koan and Jester, Clint and a few others. RJ there is no point me carrying on with you, like others here I must leave now... perhaps one day I will return to see where this has taken you.
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koan
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Post by koan »

I would be more concerned if I didn't feel sad over what happened. I didn't realise that a good life required us to feel that we've done nothing wrong or to avoid negative feelings. To me, all feelings are part of the state of being human and deserve to be heard when they are present.

I think we spend far too much time trying to fool ourselves into denying what seems unpleasant. I would rather feel sad than feel nothing. When I do something I don't have a problem admitting what I've done. I think honesty is the only way to a peaceful existence.
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Post by koan »

Lucky for me, I also believe in reincarnation. Perhaps I'll have another opportunity to give that life back.

There are many actions that can result in death to another in this world. Death happens. The concern here is that people are fooling themselves into thinking that they are not ending a life when they make their choice.
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Post by suzycreamcheese »

koan;746955 wrote: I would be more concerned if I didn't feel sad over what happened. I didn't realise that a good life required us to feel that we've done nothing wrong or to avoid negative feelings. To me, all feelings are part of the state of being human and deserve to be heard when they are present.

I think we spend far too much time trying to fool ourselves into denying what seems unpleasant. I would rather feel sad than feel nothing. When I do something I don't have a problem admitting what I've done. I think honesty is the only way to a peaceful existence.


There are also a lot of people who have terminated a pregnancy and are fairly comfortable with their decision. me included.

I dont think its down to being in denial about what it actually was, but more being realistic about the circumstances that led to the decision at the time and why I made that decision. Also maybe a differing view about where "life" really begins.

I can totally get the logic that if you personally see a 6 week old foetus (for example) as a fully fledged human being, then of course you will be anti-abortion, but for the life of me, i really cant bring myself to give it that status, and im thankful that the law doesnt either.
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Post by Wolverine »

i do and don't agree with abortion.

women who use abortions as a form of birth control need to be slapped. and yes i know 3 women like that. i went to high school 2 of them and in the last 10 years one has had 3 and the other 6.

and those women who find out their pregnant and in the 2nd or 3rd month decide they don't want it. WRONG.

there are plenty of good people out there who can't have kids and would love to adopt.

but... if they are in their 20s and are in no way ready for a child, i think it should be an option. albeit a "last resort"

like gmc said, it all goes back to Education. but parents (it seems) don't want to talk to their kids about sex, and "By God" nobody else is either.


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Post by koan »

One of the worst parts of the process was having to wait 6 weeks to do it. I wanted it gone right away. Having to wait made it harder each day. I was really ill by the time it was done. Absolute hell.
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Post by suzycreamcheese »

koan;747046 wrote: One of the worst parts of the process was having to wait 6 weeks to do it. I wanted it gone right away. Having to wait made it harder each day. I was really ill by the time it was done. Absolute hell.


Thats awful. Why did they make you wait so long???
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Post by koan »

There is a limit on how long you can wait to do it but also on how soon.
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Post by suzycreamcheese »

oh i see.

I dont think they have that rule here (im in the UK)
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Post by BTS »

drumbunny1;746635 wrote: Pro Choice has absolutley NOTHING to do with the ending a life or letting one live...it has to do with a woman having a choice about what she can do with her own body!!! The Govt should not have a say in that! AT ALL!!!!:mad: Might as well start rounding people up with tattoos, , then telling them its illegal...you can't get tattoos...we think your body is a temple...and blah blah blah...screw that! I'll be damned if someone tells me what to do with MY own body!


That's all fine and well to get tattoos........ piercings etc.....Any part of your body......

But when you create a life and terminate it that is a little different than putting graffiti on your body... Don't you think?

Or are they the same in your way of thinking?

If so I pitty what this country is coming to.
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
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Post by BTS »

rjwould;746638 wrote: Someone cynical might say they have been lucky to escape 8 years of Bush, Rove and Cheeney, the torture of the american school system, the pressure to perform, the chance to do what ever it takes to survive, and then of course, the opportunity to sit at home at a computer and debate people like me or you. One could conceivably make a good argument for not living.


But not one that was aborted!!!!!

They could NEVER have that choice.............EVER

Like you have that choice...........



I ask again............Where is the choice here??????
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
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Post by BTS »

suzycreamcheese;746653 wrote: until a baby can survive independently of its mothers body, ihas no rights and certainly shouldnt have rights that override the peson carrying it.

Pregnancy and birth isnt a walk in the park, its damn hard graft and what it can do to a body physically and mentally can be pretty severe. Its one thing to go through that with a much wanted child, but its something else to force a woman to go through that when she neither wants it, or is ready to deal with it.


Keeping your legs together or using ALL the available birth control would have been a MUCH better start than to get knocked and say "Pregnancy and birth isnt a walk in the park, its damn hard graft and what it can do to a body physically and mentally can be pretty severe."



Wouldn't you think using your head and ALL available controls, such as birth control pills, rubbers, abstinence or even the after morning pill etc would be a BETTER PRO CHOICE?



Kinda like.....

gee I was drunk, hit and killed a pedestrian......



Same thing I think......... POOR CHOICES TO START WITH AND THE INNOCENT PAY



MY Point:



POOR choice= Driving Drunk...Killing pedestrian......Goto jail

POOR choice= Sex without birth control (that is READABLY available).....conceive a child........abort that child......



Tell me again how you are PRO CHOICE?
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
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Post by BTS »

Jester;746873 wrote: I think you ought to keep your nose out of it and let Koan recieve it in the spirit in which it is sent.



It's so much easier to say I forgive you to someone who cannot forgive herself. It merely says. 'I understand' and I'll take part of that burden for you, 'I'll carry some of that'.
Save your breath........err I meant fingers Jes.......

It is falling on deaf ears...........err again........ I meant blind eyes :sneaky:
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
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BTS
Posts: 3202
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:47 am

Anti-Choice Bush Nominee

Post by BTS »

abortions at about 7 Weeks (first trimester)



also include a pathologist's medical authentication.



http://www.priestsforlife.org/resour...yage/index.htm
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
User avatar
BTS
Posts: 3202
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:47 am

Anti-Choice Bush Nominee

Post by BTS »

This one was 4 1/2 months



BABY Choice



http://www.priestsforlife.org/resour...yage/index.htm
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
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