Europe has a new Treaty

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:01 am

Ok then, the question is, when is Britain leaving the EU please and when is Scotland joining? :wah:

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:08 am

Since we refuse year after year to hold a referendum we would appear to be able to retain our current position, both the UK and Scotland.

What's far more interesting is that you Irish are committed to a referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon and quite likely to - what was it Charlie McCreevy said? Make Ireland "the laughing stock of Europe"?

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:34 am

spot;739202 wrote: Since we refuse year after year to hold a referendum we would appear to be able to retain our current position, both the UK and Scotland.

What's far more interesting is that you Irish are committed to a referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon and quite likely to - what was it Charlie McCreevy said? Make Ireland "the laughing stock of Europe"?

That's right, we will have a referendum in 2008, I am guessing that assorted pin-striped right-wing U.K. Tory research groups will be over here (in disguise if they want to influence anyone) banging on about "our" sovereignty and hoping against hope we vote "No". I doubt that the referendum will be an issue, though at the moment most people over here are not really thinking about it. I actually thought we were the annoying nouveau riche party people of Europe, but its true that we do have a better sense of humour than the Germans (unsurprisingly).

I'm guessing that the reason there are no U.K. referendums on the EU is that any issue put to a referendum would get a resounding "No", whether it was the creation of the Soviet Socialist Euro Federal Union of Germania (we are all in on it you know) or the price of Banana's in that banana shop in Antwerp, which is one of the reasons why Britain should leave and think of some other continent to be involved with, perhaps the one slightly to the West of Galway would be a more acceptable idea. :wah:

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:04 am

I also have to say the fact that the British Prime Minister couldn't even be bothered turning up because he is so scared about even looking co-operative with his European collegues is a typically insulting and petty demonstration of the contempt shown in Britain for other European counties. This was a special one though, 26 other national European leaders were there, but Gordon Brown was too busy in a Westminster committee room to turn up on time, says it all really.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:06 am

galbally

i wondered about him being late and why - he has special diary secretaries which arrange every minute of his day - if he was really late and they cocked up, heads would roll.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:19 am

lemon_and_mint;739387 wrote: galbally

i wondered about him being late and why - he has special diary secretaries which arrange every minute of his day - if he was really late and they cocked up, heads would roll.

I don't really see why Downing Street didn't ask the Portuguese to delay the ceremony for a couple of hours to allow the Prime Minister to attend, what is after all quite an important ceremony that cements the new democracies of Eastern Europe in the Union. Its obviously a fairly clumsy snub, and it also shows Brown's generally cowardly style of leadership, which is at least something that Tony Blair could never be accused of. I actually think its a fairly bad insult to countries like Poland and the Czech Republic (as well as the rest of us who are Britain's partners in the EU) who are reforming their old communist economies and cementing liberal democratic structures. I wouldn't ever try and say that the British people don't have every right to either not want to sign up to the treaty or even leave the EU if thats what they want. But for the British government, which decided to sign the treaty without a refferendum, to act in such a childish manner is frankly pathetic and it certainly damages British interests on the continent, in a word: foolish.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:24 am

Every other country considers them selves part of Europe, which Britain doesn't seem to.I lose track of the number of times I've corrected someone who has told me "I'm going on holiday to Europe", explaining that we are already in Europe, and they get this look of sheer amazement that they hadn't realised this before.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:32 am

lemon_and_mint;739398 wrote: Every other country considers them selves part of Europe, which Britain doesn't seem to.I lose track of the number of times I've corrected someone who has told me "I'm going on holiday to Europe", explaining that we are already in Europe, and they get this look of sheer amazement that they hadn't realised this before.

Yes, I understand I have also had this conversation with people in Britain (sometimes having to have to refer to a map to demonstrate Britain's actual location on planet Earth, i.e. 35 miles directly north of that other world known as France). Its both heartbreaking and also funny at the same time. That said, I understand some of the criticisms in Britain of the EU, (as we all realize the limitations of the EU and the European idea), but thats no excuse for this type of behaviour. The sad thing is that Gordon is now going to tour other European capitals lecturing everyone else on how to run their economies and why they should be sending more troops to bolster US foreign policy, and he will wonder why people might be a little slow to heed his advice.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:41 am

Without critisising any other countries at all, i do worry that the concept of Europe is now becoming too big and unwieldy - there are currently 26 countries and in the future they want to include something like 8 more, and turkey is the one which worries me the most.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:43 am

maybe it's the island mentality - i think our geographical perspective is unique within europe, excluding of course the minor islands attached to other countries.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:45 am

lemon_and_mint;739409 wrote: Without critisising any other countries at all, i do worry that the concept of Europe is now becoming too big and unwieldy - there are currently 26 countries and in the future they want to include something like 8 more, and turkey is the one which worries me the most.

Yes, I think everyone involved in the EU is aware that the EU is potentially becoming too large to be run effectively as an economic area, which is precisely why this treaty was required and why it is so important. Also many countries still have a long way to go before they will qualify for Euro membership, but at least they have a standard to reach in making their economies and currencies stronger in the future. To be honest I can't see Turkey being admitted in this generation, which is a little unfair on the Turks, but thats real-politic for you.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:48 am

why not? i think they are scheduled for 2010?

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:37 pm

lemon_and_mint;739409 wrote: Without critisising any other countries at all, i do worry that the concept of Europe is now becoming too big and unwieldy - there are currently 26 countries and in the future they want to include something like 8 more, and turkey is the one which worries me the most.

What is wrong with that? There are 50 States in the USA and Alaska is no where near the rest of the States.

I would worry a bit about Turkey as well.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:19 pm

lemon_and_mint;739415 wrote: why not? i think they are scheduled for 2010?

Because there are 80 million Muslims in Turkey, many are very poor, and they will not be given free travel access to the rest of Europe, certainly not in the current geo-politcal situation. Turkey also has a land border with Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Armenia, so if Turkey becomes a member then the EU will border all these countries. I am not saying that is right or fair, but these are the reasons. I think Turkey is a unique country and it has both a European and central Asian heritage as well as a long legacy of high culture, I would be favour of allowing Turkey into the EU, though I can see why this probably wont happen.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:21 pm

mikeinie;739443 wrote: What is wrong with that? There are 50 States in the USA and Alaska is no where near the rest of the States.

I would worry a bit about Turkey as well.

yes but your 50 states all speak the same language and have the same cultural background - do you have any idea how many translators and interpretors it requires to make a relatively easy decision within the EU nowadays?

Post by **Betty Boop** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:55 pm

lemon_and_mint;739409 wrote: Without critisising any other countries at all, i do worry that the concept of Europe is now becoming too big and unwieldy - there are currently 26 countries and in the future they want to include something like 8 more, and turkey is the one which worries me the most.

There are 27 countries at the mo

Right this very moment writing an essay on the Parliamentary Sovereignty and the impact of the EU

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:56 pm

Betty Boop;739497 wrote: There are 27 countries at the mo

Right this very moment writing an essay on the Parliamentary Sovereignty and the impact of the EU

I was not counting Switzerland - they have special arrangements.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:01 pm

basically it is setting a more structured leadership in place and doing away with the power of veto which countries can give in some decisions.

What this means in practice remains to be seen.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:01 pm

some people see it as brown signing away the rights of the uk to veto any decisions which would have a detrimental effect on us.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:06 pm

lemon_and_mint;739478 wrote: yes but your 50 states all speak the same language and have the same cultural background - do you have any idea how many translators and interpretors it requires to make a relatively easy decision within the EU nowadays?

Milkenie is Irish not American Lemon and Mint, and the EU Commission uses English as its working language, (which is another reason why Britain should be all guns for the EU, imagine the continent where most people could speak English and understand English language culture, wouldn't you be in favour of that?). Though the EU does recognize all the major languages of its people which is only right and proper, it also keeps highly skilled multi-lingual translators in jobs, which is not that bad a thing if you think about it. Again, the point of this new treaty is exactly that, to simplify EU Commission decision making.

One one hand the EU is criticized because its too complex, when it tries to streamline its workings, then its trying to erode Britain's sovereignty, its obvious that the real argument is that Britain doesn't really want to be involved in this. I think to be honest that the British people have been convinced by certain elements in the UK political class that the EU is the source of all Britain's problem, and that the EU is some kind of post-kafka-esque nightmare beauracracy that employs tens of thousands of people whose only mission is to annoy cockney barrow boys, which is simply not true.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:06 pm

lemon_and_mint;739498 wrote: I was not counting Switzerland - they have special arrangements.

Ok

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:00 pm

lemon_and_mint;739478 wrote: yes but your 50 states all speak the same language and have the same cultural background - do you have any idea how many translators and interpretors it requires to make a relatively easy decision within the EU nowadays?

Same cultural background? How do you figure that? How many Americans are Spanish speaking? Your young country is made of of nationalities from all over the world, OK English is your formal language, but don't kid yourself you are not made up from the same cultural backgrounds.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:07 pm

mikeinie;739592 wrote: Same cultural background? How do you figure that? How many Americans are Spanish speaking? Your young country is made of of nationalities from all over the world, OK English is your formal language, but don't kid yourself you are not made up from the same cultural backgrounds.

sorry miekienie i think we have both got confused here - ok, now i see, i thought you were american, sorry.

I'm British - are you talking about Britain or America?

In any case the argument about the 50 states still stands - they were bought together bofore the influx of Puerto Ricans (I'm guessing that;s why you mention Spanish).We could say the same about Britain that there have been mass immigrations to this area from peoples who speak other languages.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:09 pm

lemon_and_mint;739601 wrote: sorry miekienie i think we have both got confused here - ok, now i see, i thought you were american, sorry.

I'm British - are you talking about Britain or America?

In any case the argument about the 50 states still stands - they were bought together bofore the influx of Puerto Ricans (I'm guessing that;s why you mention Spanish).We could say the same about Britain that there have been mass immigrations to this area from peoples who speak other languages.

Haaa hhaa I thought tht you were American as well!:wah:

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:09 pm

mikeinie;739605 wrote: Haaa hhaa I thought tht you were American as well!:wah:

yes, I think we are talking at cross-purposes - we are both on the same side of the argument!

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:10 pm

lemon_and_mint;739608 wrote: yes, I think we are talking at cross-purposes - we are both on the same side of the argument!

That would make us....European:wah:

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:13 pm

very stupid joke i heard.

if you are English in England, and British in Britain, what are you in the toilet?

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:20 pm

lemon_and_mint;739618 wrote: very stupid joke i heard.

if you are English in England, and British in Britain, what are you in the toilet?

Relieved to have gotten there in time perhaps?

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:21 pm

mikeinie;739611 wrote: That would make us....European:wah:

Yes, we are all quite different in our national ways and cultures, but we also definetly share a common cultural heritage and world outlook. I think its the differences that actually make Europe the rich and interesting continent it is.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:22 pm

Galbally;739629 wrote: Relieved to have gotten there in time perhaps?

no - European!!!! get it? it took me a while.

sorry I have lowered the tone now.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:28 pm

Betty Boop;739497 wrote: There are 27 countries at the mo

Right this very moment writing an essay on the Parliamentary Sovereignty and the impact of the EU

I would argue that the impact of maggie thatcher and tony blair has been far more detrimental to parliamentary sovereignty than anything the EU has done. We now have a PM that has just been handed the office without a peep from anybody in the house. We badly need electoral reform to redress the nonsense whereby 1/3rd of the voters elect the government, no wonder people don't bother voting any more.

posted by jimbo

i see on the news brown has signed away our country what does this mean to us englanders

Shame on you, you should have an opinion of your own. I take it you're not a unionist then:sneaky: can England survive without Scotland? Please don't hold gordon Brown against us we'll vote the bugger out at the next election. i put it to you that he cancelled the November election because he was scared.

posted by lemon and mint

some people see it as brown signing away the rights of the uk to veto any decisions which would have a detrimental effect on us.

Most of the problems arise from the way european legislation is implemented rather than the legislation itself. Since the bulk of our trade is with europe and our biggest export is financial services opting out is likely to result in us losing far more than we gain. london could very easily lose it's status as the world's financial capital. Ignoring the eu is not really a viable option. The idea that all these other nations will accept a european superstate and lose their own national identity is ludicrous, a large percentage of then have only just got theirs back.

posted by galbally

I think to be honest that the British people have been convinced by certain elements in the UK political class that the EU is the source of all Britain's problem, and that the EU is some kind of post-kafka-esque nightmare beauracracy that employs tens of thousands of people whose only mission is to annoy cockney barrow boys, which is simply not true.

i have very little time for that section that are anti european. Much of their approach is ill thought out , ignorant xenophobia. It's also incredibly negative and backward looking.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:02 am

lemon_and_mint;739632 wrote: no - European!!!! get it? it took me a while.

sorry I have lowered the tone now.

I still don't get it? I am not very good at these things.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:11 am

lemon_and_mint;739410 wrote: maybe it's the island mentality - i think our geographical perspective is unique within europe, excluding of course the minor islands attached to other countries.

I forgot to respond to this one, and I have to say that I also live on a large Island off the northwest coast of the continent and one that is farther away than Britain is from the rest of Europe, but we certainly don't have the same hang ups about the fact that we are European as well as being Irish.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:16 am

jimbo;739499 wrote: well dr g aka hoff

i see on the news brown has signed away our country what does this mean to us englanders

not in spock lingo if you dont mind:D

Sorry Jimbo, I forgot to respond to this, it will mean that the EU runs more effectively, that the EU will be better able to deal with the big things in the world like climate change, the world economy, and things like the balkan problems and Iran and all that. It will also make it harder for individual countries to scupper decisions on these kind of issues, which is important when you have 27 members.

Oh and also you will have to speak German, change the name of London to Berlin, and have Deutschland Uber Alles as your national anthem, so no problems there then! Look its already started, an Italian is managing England, quick get down to the White Cliffs and see off Johnny Foreigner. :wah:

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:20 am

Galbally;739767 wrote: I forgot to respond to this one, and I have to say that I also live on a large Island off the northwest coast of the continent and one that is farther away than Britain is from the rest of Europe, but we certainly don't have the same hang ups about the fact that we are European as well as being Irish.

Now that is really interesting, I wonder why it is, as you say, you have the same geographical perspective - an island - yet you don't have the same mentality?

I think I feel a research paper coming on.

This morning's breaking news is that Gordon Brown has attended a meeting in Brussels!As he is supposed to!

Post by **spot** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:35 am

Galbally;739762 wrote: I still don't get it? I am not very good at these things.

It's the way she tells them.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:48 am

jimbo;739771 wrote: :wah::wah: thanks buddy but i'm polish now ,i did not want to be the only Englishman in the pub,shop,building site etc so i'm polish

Ok so can we call you Jivmbro now? :wah: I tell ya, you would never keep up with them Poles in the pub, they drink, well they drink like east Europeans. :wah:

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:50 am

lemon_and_mint;739770 wrote: Now that is really interesting, I wonder why it is, as you say, you have the same geographical perspective - an island - yet you don't have the same mentality?

I think I feel a research paper coming on.

This morning's breaking news is that Gordon Brown has attended a meeting in Brussels!As he is supposed to!

I want any royalties on that paper please. Yeah, Brown apparently has even condescended to talk to other leaders without using a megaphone or wearing a Beefeater costume.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:51 am

spot;739774 wrote: It's the way she tells them.

Oh god, Johnny Carson. Or as we call him in Oireland, Frank Carson.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:15 am

Its also quite interesting that the British people are in general against the EU in terms of domestic politics in Britain, but when it comes to things like negotiating treaties on things like climate change or tough trade talks with the other big world powers the US, China, or security issues etc, they are very much in step with other Europeans. I suppose that is partly the EUs fault as its been very inward-looking, and it needs to demonstrate to European citizens that it actually does some very useful and important things. It also shows that the British position on the EU tends to be a bit self-contradictory sometimes.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:24 am

The Brits are afraid of losing their national identity - many of them fear losing the pound to the single Euro currency.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:26 am

Galbally;739780 wrote: Oh god, Johnny Carson. Or as we call him in Oireland, Frank Carson.

not to be confused with Willy Carson.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:49 am

lemon_and_mint;739848 wrote: The Brits are afraid of losing their national identity - many of them fear losing the pound to the single Euro currency.

Thats perfectly understandable, though personally I don't think that will happen. I do think that some of the arguments made in Britain about the EU and the Euro are very valid, its not all knee-jerk stuff. Which is why I would prefer Britain to stay in Europe as Britain's long history of democracy, liberal government, civil institutions, and market economics are a hugely positive influence on political debate, espeicially in the former Warsaw pack member states. Thats also why Brown's shenanigans are so disheartening.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:49 am

lemon_and_mint;739850 wrote: not to be confused with Willy Carson.

They were all different heights, thats how I tell them apart. :wah: