I was going to bump this thread, but it's pretty long, and the indexing looks like it's near the limit. It was one of my favorites, evolving into a debate of the father's rights regarding an unborn child.Please read the original thread, or jump right in here.
I'm going to try to take a little time out, but I'd love to see where this subject goes with the newer personalities we have now in FG.
Scrat;250540 wrote: I can't believe we're going here again. This is unbefreakinglievable!!! Nobody has a right to tell a woman what to do with her body. Period. I do believe in parental conscent in these matters and I certainly am against taxpayers subsidizing womens rights to an abortion (I don't like any kind of tax at all. If we had a VAT tax on cloths I would wear rabbit skins) but I won't ever say a woman can't have an abortion if she wants one.
[* Snip *]
Man's Right to Choose
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I believe that this is really a touchy subject. I think a women has the right to choose if she wants to get an abortion, but, on the other hand a father has a right to have his child. Wow, I have to think about this one.:-2
Man's Right to Choose
Ooooooooo good question, of course all circumstances are completely different which makes it very complex. In general i would say if mum does not want the baby & dad does, why shouldent he be allowed to have it? If you are irresponsible enough to get pregnant when you dont want to be then you have to face the consequences of that action.
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I maintain that the mother retains the most choice in the matter as she is the one conceiving, carrying, using her body's system to form it into a proper human being and ultimately delivering. Not to mention most of the raising will fall to her.
And no way should she be forced to have a child because the father wants it. Until he can have his own, he must acquiesce to the mother's wants. IMO.
And no way should she be forced to have a child because the father wants it. Until he can have his own, he must acquiesce to the mother's wants. IMO.
Man's Right to Choose
Red he will never be in a position to have (carry his own)
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buttercup;678304 wrote: Red he will never be in a position to have (carry his own)
Exactly.
I feel this is the woman's domain. Always has been and I think always should be.
Exactly.
I feel this is the woman's domain. Always has been and I think always should be.
Man's Right to Choose
I wonder how you would feel if this situation were happening to your son or brother?
Man's Right to Choose
If a man wants a "right to chose" regarding abortion, then he should also have a "right to chose" using birth control such as condoms.
I used to know a man who impregnated his wife over and over and over and made her have abortions over and over and over, instead of using condoms. I think she had a total of 6 abortions.
I used to know a man who impregnated his wife over and over and over and made her have abortions over and over and over, instead of using condoms. I think she had a total of 6 abortions.
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buttercup;678309 wrote: I wonder how you would feel if this situation were happening to your son or brother?
I expect I would feel the same. I'm a woman and this is how I feel. It's nothing against men. I have always felt this way. It is fair that since possession is nine-tenths (heh) and we're using OUR bodies to do this incredibly important thing, that it remain our domain. I may be sad if my son were in this spot, it being my potential grandchild, but I'm still a woman first and I would better understand the position of the mother.
I expect I would feel the same. I'm a woman and this is how I feel. It's nothing against men. I have always felt this way. It is fair that since possession is nine-tenths (heh) and we're using OUR bodies to do this incredibly important thing, that it remain our domain. I may be sad if my son were in this spot, it being my potential grandchild, but I'm still a woman first and I would better understand the position of the mother.
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cinamin;678359 wrote: If a man wants a "right to chose" regarding abortion, then he should also have a "right to chose" using birth control such as condoms.
I used to know a man who impregnated his wife over and over and over and made her have abortions over and over and over, instead of using condoms. I think she had a total of 6 abortions.
What was wrong with this woman that she couldn't sneak in some birth control pills or foam or at least cut off the poontang until he showed some common sense and respect for her?!
I used to know a man who impregnated his wife over and over and over and made her have abortions over and over and over, instead of using condoms. I think she had a total of 6 abortions.
What was wrong with this woman that she couldn't sneak in some birth control pills or foam or at least cut off the poontang until he showed some common sense and respect for her?!
Man's Right to Choose
Um Red, if the father is the one wanting the baby and the mother doesn't how will most of the raising fall on her shoulders?
Stay tuned for a story.
Stay tuned for a story.
Life ain't linear.
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KB.;678382 wrote: Um Red, if the father is the one wanting the baby and the mother doesn't how will most of the raising fall on her shoulders?
Stay tuned for a story.
That's kind of moot. If the father wants the kid, since she's carrying it, why should she suffer through pregnancy and delivery to give him the child? I don't understand that expectation. It seems selfish although I am also aware that my stance seems selfish to many too.
Stay tuned for a story.
That's kind of moot. If the father wants the kid, since she's carrying it, why should she suffer through pregnancy and delivery to give him the child? I don't understand that expectation. It seems selfish although I am also aware that my stance seems selfish to many too.
Man's Right to Choose
There is nothing I want more than to be a Father. I don’t want to be your husband (I’m speaking in general here not at anyone); I don’t want to be your lover or your love either for that matter. I don’t want to be your daddy, your emotional punching bag, your rock, your anchor, or your friend.
If you’ve read my stories you have heard about the woman in Houston that talked about killing me in her sleep, the woman I put through rehab. The woman I had to leave the state to get away from. The last time I talked to her in person was maybe 5 years ago a couple of years after I left. She was going through a 12 step program and it was her turn to apologize, confess, what the hell ever. She called me to tell me she was sorry, but that she had been pregnant with a child, of mine, and had an abortion.
My chance to be a father was ripped from me and I didn’t even know it until two years later.
All I want is a chance to be one of the most noble of professions in the world. A parent. I also would like to continue the family line, it is important, there are only two of us left that may have children. Sounds archaic to you maybe, but I would rather not see the blood end if I can help it.
It may be your body, but that child is part of me as well. That child is far more important than your body and discomfort that will last nine months. I'd carry the child if I could, but I can't. There is never a moot point where life is concerned.
If you’ve read my stories you have heard about the woman in Houston that talked about killing me in her sleep, the woman I put through rehab. The woman I had to leave the state to get away from. The last time I talked to her in person was maybe 5 years ago a couple of years after I left. She was going through a 12 step program and it was her turn to apologize, confess, what the hell ever. She called me to tell me she was sorry, but that she had been pregnant with a child, of mine, and had an abortion.
My chance to be a father was ripped from me and I didn’t even know it until two years later.
All I want is a chance to be one of the most noble of professions in the world. A parent. I also would like to continue the family line, it is important, there are only two of us left that may have children. Sounds archaic to you maybe, but I would rather not see the blood end if I can help it.
It may be your body, but that child is part of me as well. That child is far more important than your body and discomfort that will last nine months. I'd carry the child if I could, but I can't. There is never a moot point where life is concerned.
Life ain't linear.
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Damn, this was one of my better ideas.
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Let me get this straight, KB.
You don't want to be the rock for the woman who bears your child but you want to be a parent? You want the benefit without giving anything to the woman who went through hell to deliver that baby? Do I understand that right? Because that would never cut it with me. I don't see that as a real man in any respect. And that's part of the problem with society today.
You don't want to be the rock for the woman who bears your child but you want to be a parent? You want the benefit without giving anything to the woman who went through hell to deliver that baby? Do I understand that right? Because that would never cut it with me. I don't see that as a real man in any respect. And that's part of the problem with society today.
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KB.;678384 wrote:
It may be your body, but that child is part of me as well. That child is far more important than your body and discomfort that will last nine months. I'd carry the child if I could, but I can't. There is never a moot point where life is concerned.
I could not disagree more. If he's not willing to be my man, that child ain't his.
And with all due respect, a man has no clue what a woman's pain is. We are the lifegivers and we can be the lifetakers as well. You don't get this for free.
It may be your body, but that child is part of me as well. That child is far more important than your body and discomfort that will last nine months. I'd carry the child if I could, but I can't. There is never a moot point where life is concerned.
I could not disagree more. If he's not willing to be my man, that child ain't his.
And with all due respect, a man has no clue what a woman's pain is. We are the lifegivers and we can be the lifetakers as well. You don't get this for free.
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Accountable;678387 wrote: Damn, this was one of my better ideas.
Acc, you knew I'd climb into this one didn't you?
I think this may be the subject that kills off FG. :-3
Acc, you knew I'd climb into this one didn't you?
I think this may be the subject that kills off FG. :-3
Man's Right to Choose
Accountable;678387 wrote: Damn, this was one of my better ideas.
Ya done good there, man.
Ya done good there, man.
Man's Right to Choose
I'm rolling out of this one before I really **** someone off. Yall have fun.
Life ain't linear.
Man's Right to Choose
It was meant to be harsh. Look at what you ladies are saying. You basically take it upon yourselves to call the man nothing more than a sperm donor with zero rights in the situation. F uck that. How would you feel if I said, "If I put a dollar in a coke machine and a dr pepper comes out, who does the drink belong to? Me or the machine?" Don't tell me I sound harsh when a child that takes two people to create suddenly becomes the pawn of the person carrying it for them to do with as they god damned please. You've been there, but so have I. You know how much I love kids and how much I want some of my own. That was taken away from me and all I got in return was a apology from a AA meeting.
Life ain't linear.
Man's Right to Choose
Who said we were having unprotected sex? Things happen, and where did I say I expect every woman I meet to want to be a mother. I never did. I said, paraphrased, that when a woman I have been together with for a year becomes pregnant with my child I expect to have some say so in the outcome of that pregnancy. Way to ignore the whole, "basically calling us a just sperm donor accusation." That might be fine for some of the half assed want to be men; but it don't fly with me. We also ain't talking about men straightening up, we are talking about women deciding the fate of mankind because they feel like they are in sole control of the continuing of society.
Like I said, I'm rolling for real this time. I'm going to sequester myself to music threads and the writing section. I'm ion an irritable mood and emotianl shrapnel is going to catch someone in the ass if I hang around in this thread much longer.
Like I said, I'm rolling for real this time. I'm going to sequester myself to music threads and the writing section. I'm ion an irritable mood and emotianl shrapnel is going to catch someone in the ass if I hang around in this thread much longer.
Life ain't linear.
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Yeah I'll bail too. I'm already disgusted and the older ones here know how I can let loose and I'm trying to avoid that these days. We shouldn't make it personal but there's no way we can avoid drawing on our own experiences, and yet I know I'm uncomfortable talking about it when I know too much about someone. Besides, it's not like we're going to change each others' mind or gain some monumental insight. We already are who we are.
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almostfamous;678388 wrote: Kev I understand your point. I do but and let me just speak from my own experience for a minute.
When I was pregnant with D's child, I was terrified. I can't 100% say that I would have kept it and about a 1000% sure I would have never told him about the child. He is poison. I don't care who the hell he is or how much he wanted me to have the child I would have never allowed him contact. Why? Most importantly because it is my choice, my body, my blood. He??? psh. fk him. Thank God I miscarried.
I just reallllly think that it should be understood from the getgo the stance on children. We don't need laws to tell us who has what right. We're adults and should be held accountable for our actions. I would never marry or date a man that doesn't want kids. That's me taking responsibility in the selection of whom I, excuse me, spread em for.
Let's run away to Utah. I want to marry you. :-4
When I was pregnant with D's child, I was terrified. I can't 100% say that I would have kept it and about a 1000% sure I would have never told him about the child. He is poison. I don't care who the hell he is or how much he wanted me to have the child I would have never allowed him contact. Why? Most importantly because it is my choice, my body, my blood. He??? psh. fk him. Thank God I miscarried.
I just reallllly think that it should be understood from the getgo the stance on children. We don't need laws to tell us who has what right. We're adults and should be held accountable for our actions. I would never marry or date a man that doesn't want kids. That's me taking responsibility in the selection of whom I, excuse me, spread em for.
Let's run away to Utah. I want to marry you. :-4
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RedGlitter;678393 wrote: Acc, you knew I'd climb into this one didn't you?
I think this may be the subject that kills off FG. :-3
No way. Healthy, respectful debate is what's made FG great. That and goofballs.
I think this may be the subject that kills off FG. :-3
No way. Healthy, respectful debate is what's made FG great. That and goofballs.
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KB.;678432 wrote: Like I said, I'm rolling for real this time. I'm going to sequester myself to music threads and the writing section. I'm ion an irritable mood and emotianl shrapnel is going to catch someone in the ass if I hang around in this thread much longer.
RedGlitter;678436 wrote: Yeah I'll bail too.
almostfamous;678444 wrote: I'm sorry for my assumptions, I was wrong. I'm bailing out as well. I never meant to hurt your feelings.
There's a word for the three of you, but it would be taken out of context in this thread.
Obviously it's a vitally important subject, otherwise ya'll wouldn't have your emotions tied up in it. There are hundreds of closed minds that we could help give balance to. Get p'd off, sure, but don't leave it. Read that thread linked in the OP. Everybody that posted there got angry, but everybody stayed (the ones that are gone now left for other reasons).
It's incredibly important
for women to know that taking on a long-term relationship involves more than their hearts; the man's heart is included as well.
for men to understand that protected sex is no guarantee, and that your girlfriend has the right to kill your offspring if she chooses, so you'd both better be damn sure you agree on how to handle a pregnancy, should it occur, before you take that chance.
for people to learn that stereotypes are just that, and you need to get to know the individual you're with before taking on the life-changing risk of pregnancy. Because it is life-changing for both the father and the mother, whether the baby is kept, aborted, or given for adoption.These things are important! Important enough to get angry about. Important enough to take personally. Important enough to empathize and learn from everybody's opionions.
Now get back here.
RedGlitter;678436 wrote: Yeah I'll bail too.
almostfamous;678444 wrote: I'm sorry for my assumptions, I was wrong. I'm bailing out as well. I never meant to hurt your feelings.
There's a word for the three of you, but it would be taken out of context in this thread.
Obviously it's a vitally important subject, otherwise ya'll wouldn't have your emotions tied up in it. There are hundreds of closed minds that we could help give balance to. Get p'd off, sure, but don't leave it. Read that thread linked in the OP. Everybody that posted there got angry, but everybody stayed (the ones that are gone now left for other reasons).
It's incredibly important
for women to know that taking on a long-term relationship involves more than their hearts; the man's heart is included as well.
for men to understand that protected sex is no guarantee, and that your girlfriend has the right to kill your offspring if she chooses, so you'd both better be damn sure you agree on how to handle a pregnancy, should it occur, before you take that chance.
for people to learn that stereotypes are just that, and you need to get to know the individual you're with before taking on the life-changing risk of pregnancy. Because it is life-changing for both the father and the mother, whether the baby is kept, aborted, or given for adoption.These things are important! Important enough to get angry about. Important enough to take personally. Important enough to empathize and learn from everybody's opionions.
Now get back here.
Man's Right to Choose
I'm still very much in the thread & on the side of men on this one. I think its a healthy debate to have. To say women give life & we can take it away is just sick. (sorry Red, thats a comment of yours & not meant as an attack against you as such, many women feel as you do) I'm surprised you backed out the thread, get back in here, thought you loved a good debate?
So the woman does not want to have the baby but the man does, his family does, they can raise it in a loving home, can she not find it in her heart to carry it, give the child life & allow her (then) partner to raise it? Why not? What does that say about her as a person?
So the woman does not want to have the baby but the man does, his family does, they can raise it in a loving home, can she not find it in her heart to carry it, give the child life & allow her (then) partner to raise it? Why not? What does that say about her as a person?
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I don't know Acc. Those days of me flying off the handle are in the past pretty much and I hate to bait myself. Maybe we three are the wrong personalities to discuss? I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but there's no way I can agree that a man has a right to to force a woman to have a baby because it's part his. I think that's wholly wrong. I understand the other side's point of view and it's a good one. However, I still say whoever would be carrying the child has the most say-so. It just happens to be the woman and I feel that needs to be accepted. If you want a child that bad then make sure you know who you're doing. Find that stuff out beforehand. I haven't said what's on my mind yet but if it comes to it I'm fixing to.
But as you know, I am trying to be good. :rolleyes:
But as you know, I am trying to be good. :rolleyes:
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buttercup;678534 wrote: I'm still very much in the thread & on the side of men on this one. I think its a healthy debate to have. To say women give life & we can take it away is just sick. (sorry Red, thats a comment of yours & not meant as an attack against you as such, many women feel as you do)
That's fine Buttercup, I see nothing sick at all about it. I'm surprised you backed out the thread, get back in here, thought you loved a good debate?
I do but I'm tired of arguing. And that's always what it comes down to.
So the woman does not want to have the baby but the man does, his family does, they can raise it in a loving home, can she not find it in her heart to carry it, give the child life & allow her (then) partner to raise it? Why not? What does that say about her as a person?
First the man doesn't "have" the baby. I have always hated this "we're pregnant" crap. SHE is pregnant and you got her that way. But YOU are not pregnant.
Why SHOULD she have to deliver this baby if she doesn't want it? You act as if there's no big deal about doing that. It's a hell of a big deal and a definite sacrifice for her to do such a thing and she should not have to or even have to explain to anyone but the father why she chooses not to do so.
And why would that imply that there is anything "wrong" with her? I suppose you want me to say she's selfish but I don't see that at all. I do think the father expecting her to crank out that kid and hand it over to him is supremely selfish. Talk about consequence all you want but humans do things wrong sometimes and maybe she slept with him for her own reasons but he doesn't chalk up to father material. Have you considered that?
I resent the notion that I think men are "sperm donors." It takes two but who gets the short end of the stick? What do men give to this program? Besides the obvious? No, you give women the respect they deserve and respect that the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. It has always been.
How did you two drag me back into this?
That's fine Buttercup, I see nothing sick at all about it. I'm surprised you backed out the thread, get back in here, thought you loved a good debate?
I do but I'm tired of arguing. And that's always what it comes down to.
So the woman does not want to have the baby but the man does, his family does, they can raise it in a loving home, can she not find it in her heart to carry it, give the child life & allow her (then) partner to raise it? Why not? What does that say about her as a person?
First the man doesn't "have" the baby. I have always hated this "we're pregnant" crap. SHE is pregnant and you got her that way. But YOU are not pregnant.
Why SHOULD she have to deliver this baby if she doesn't want it? You act as if there's no big deal about doing that. It's a hell of a big deal and a definite sacrifice for her to do such a thing and she should not have to or even have to explain to anyone but the father why she chooses not to do so.
And why would that imply that there is anything "wrong" with her? I suppose you want me to say she's selfish but I don't see that at all. I do think the father expecting her to crank out that kid and hand it over to him is supremely selfish. Talk about consequence all you want but humans do things wrong sometimes and maybe she slept with him for her own reasons but he doesn't chalk up to father material. Have you considered that?
I resent the notion that I think men are "sperm donors." It takes two but who gets the short end of the stick? What do men give to this program? Besides the obvious? No, you give women the respect they deserve and respect that the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. It has always been.
How did you two drag me back into this?
Man's Right to Choose
Just threw out a line & reeled you in :wah:
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buttercup;678541 wrote: Just threw out a line & reeled you in :wah:
What kind of bait did you use there, missy? :wah:
Oh boy. I feel hell coming on in this one.
And then you go and start another thread like this one! You're evil Buttercup! Evil!
What kind of bait did you use there, missy? :wah:
Oh boy. I feel hell coming on in this one.
And then you go and start another thread like this one! You're evil Buttercup! Evil!
Man's Right to Choose
RedGlitter;678539 wrote:
First the man doesn't "have" the baby. I have always hated this "we're pregnant" crap. SHE is pregnant and you got her that way. But YOU are not pregnant.
Why SHOULD she have to deliver this baby if she doesn't want it? You act as if there's no big deal about doing that. It's a hell of a big deal and a definite sacrifice for her to do such a thing and she should not have to or even have to explain to anyone but the father why she chooses not to do so.
And why would that imply that there is anything "wrong" with her? I suppose you want me to say she's selfish but I don't see that at all. I do think the father expecting her to crank out that kid and hand it over to him is supremely selfish. Talk about consequence all you want but humans do things wrong sometimes and maybe she slept with him for her own reasons but he doesn't chalk up to father material. Have you considered that?
I resent the notion that I think men are "sperm donors." It takes two but who gets the short end of the stick? What do men give to this program? Besides the obvious? No, you give women the respect they deserve and respect that the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. It has always been.
How did you two drag me back into this?
Ok above post was for fun, on a serious note, why do you think pregnancy is a big deal & a sacrifice? Ive been pregnant twice, i managed to live my life pretty much as normal through both. Its not an illness.
First the man doesn't "have" the baby. I have always hated this "we're pregnant" crap. SHE is pregnant and you got her that way. But YOU are not pregnant.
Why SHOULD she have to deliver this baby if she doesn't want it? You act as if there's no big deal about doing that. It's a hell of a big deal and a definite sacrifice for her to do such a thing and she should not have to or even have to explain to anyone but the father why she chooses not to do so.
And why would that imply that there is anything "wrong" with her? I suppose you want me to say she's selfish but I don't see that at all. I do think the father expecting her to crank out that kid and hand it over to him is supremely selfish. Talk about consequence all you want but humans do things wrong sometimes and maybe she slept with him for her own reasons but he doesn't chalk up to father material. Have you considered that?
I resent the notion that I think men are "sperm donors." It takes two but who gets the short end of the stick? What do men give to this program? Besides the obvious? No, you give women the respect they deserve and respect that the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. It has always been.
How did you two drag me back into this?
Ok above post was for fun, on a serious note, why do you think pregnancy is a big deal & a sacrifice? Ive been pregnant twice, i managed to live my life pretty much as normal through both. Its not an illness.
Man's Right to Choose
RedGlitter;678542 wrote: What kind of bait did you use there, missy? :wah:
Oh boy. I feel hell coming on in this one.
And then you go and start another thread like this one! You're evil Buttercup! Evil!
Red i really dont understand why you feel this thread is going to make all hell break loose. I think its a fair enough question to ask, i hope many more will join in on the debate cos it'll be boring if its just me saying white & you saying black. Where's all the shades of grey? C'mon other fgers
Oh boy. I feel hell coming on in this one.
And then you go and start another thread like this one! You're evil Buttercup! Evil!
Red i really dont understand why you feel this thread is going to make all hell break loose. I think its a fair enough question to ask, i hope many more will join in on the debate cos it'll be boring if its just me saying white & you saying black. Where's all the shades of grey? C'mon other fgers
Man's Right to Choose
I do see both points of view and can understand exactly why feelings run so high on this issue it's such a personal and emotive subject.
I have noticed that in the debate so far the actual pregnancy and giving birth has so far been sidelined as if it is a trivial event. Let me just remind you that for a lot of women it is far from that, many women struggle with pregnancy and it is a far from joyable experience and then there is the birth itself.............!!!!
Whilst I appreciate that death in childbirth is fairly rare it does still happen, I'm 40 and during my lifetime I have known 3 or 4 women that have died during or just after childbirth. I was very ill after giving birth and without the excellent care I received my circumstances could have been very different. I'm not sure I could put myself through it for a child I didn't really want.
What happens if the child is disabled and the father decides that he doesn't want it after all? Or if the mother agrees to have the baby and then she decides to keep it but have nothing to do with the father? Or if the mother finds out after giving the baby to the father that she can't have any more children? So many things can go wrong and then the child becomes the subject of a court battle.
Whilst I feel desparately sorry for any man denied the chance to be a father in these circumstances there are more ways to be a parent than by having a baby - there are children crying out to be adopted.
I have noticed that in the debate so far the actual pregnancy and giving birth has so far been sidelined as if it is a trivial event. Let me just remind you that for a lot of women it is far from that, many women struggle with pregnancy and it is a far from joyable experience and then there is the birth itself.............!!!!
Whilst I appreciate that death in childbirth is fairly rare it does still happen, I'm 40 and during my lifetime I have known 3 or 4 women that have died during or just after childbirth. I was very ill after giving birth and without the excellent care I received my circumstances could have been very different. I'm not sure I could put myself through it for a child I didn't really want.
What happens if the child is disabled and the father decides that he doesn't want it after all? Or if the mother agrees to have the baby and then she decides to keep it but have nothing to do with the father? Or if the mother finds out after giving the baby to the father that she can't have any more children? So many things can go wrong and then the child becomes the subject of a court battle.
Whilst I feel desparately sorry for any man denied the chance to be a father in these circumstances there are more ways to be a parent than by having a baby - there are children crying out to be adopted.
Originally Posted by spot
She is one fit bitch innit, that Immy
Don't worry; it only seems kinky the first time
She is one fit bitch innit, that Immy
Don't worry; it only seems kinky the first time
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Accountable
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RedGlitter;678536 wrote: I don't know Acc. Those days of me flying off the handle are in the past pretty much and I hate to bait myself. Maybe we three are the wrong personalities to discuss? I think AF and KB are exactly the people we need here to discuss it. They've lived it. As for you flying off the handle -- keep it that way, but don't turn it off completely. Moderation and control are signs of maturity.
RedGlitter wrote: I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but there's no way I can agree that a man has a right to to force a woman to have a baby because it's part his. I think that's wholly wrong.So don't agree to that, but at least be open to the vast ground between that view and the man gets no say at all.
RedGlitte wrote: I understand the other side's point of view and it's a good one. However, I still say whoever would be carrying the child has the most say-so. It just happens to be the woman and I feel that needs to be accepted. If you want a child that bad then make sure you know who you're doing. Find that stuff out beforehand. I haven't said what's on my mind yet but if it comes to it I'm fixing to.
But as you know, I am trying to be good. :rolleyes:
So be good. Just don't be quiet.
RedGlitter wrote: I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but there's no way I can agree that a man has a right to to force a woman to have a baby because it's part his. I think that's wholly wrong.So don't agree to that, but at least be open to the vast ground between that view and the man gets no say at all.
RedGlitte wrote: I understand the other side's point of view and it's a good one. However, I still say whoever would be carrying the child has the most say-so. It just happens to be the woman and I feel that needs to be accepted. If you want a child that bad then make sure you know who you're doing. Find that stuff out beforehand. I haven't said what's on my mind yet but if it comes to it I'm fixing to.
But as you know, I am trying to be good. :rolleyes:
So be good. Just don't be quiet.
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RedGlitter
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buttercup;678543 wrote: Ok above post was for fun, on a serious note, why do you think pregnancy is a big deal & a sacrifice? Ive been pregnant twice, i managed to live my life pretty much as normal through both. Its not an illness.
It's not an illness but it is taxing to the body. The mother's body. And only hers.
Do you not think pregnancy is a big deal, Butter? I think carrying a parasitic human inside you for nine months and going through all the unpleasantries of a pregnancy during that time, then having to force that human being out of your body and experience hellish pain is a sacrifice. I know right now there's a really nasty induhvidual on FG who wants to tear me up for saying this and I'm waiting on him, but I don't take children lightly. In spite of my views on abortion and this issue, they're a big deal to me. I just see it differently than some.
It's not an illness but it is taxing to the body. The mother's body. And only hers.
Do you not think pregnancy is a big deal, Butter? I think carrying a parasitic human inside you for nine months and going through all the unpleasantries of a pregnancy during that time, then having to force that human being out of your body and experience hellish pain is a sacrifice. I know right now there's a really nasty induhvidual on FG who wants to tear me up for saying this and I'm waiting on him, but I don't take children lightly. In spite of my views on abortion and this issue, they're a big deal to me. I just see it differently than some.
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RedGlitter
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Accountable;678550 wrote: I think AF and KB are exactly the people we need here to discuss it. They've lived it. As for you flying off the handle -- keep it that way, but don't turn it off completely. Moderation and control are signs of maturity.
So be good. Just don't be quiet.
Thanks Acc for understanding. I appreciate that.
So be good. Just don't be quiet.
Thanks Acc for understanding. I appreciate that.
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Accountable
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Imladris, I don't feel I know you well enough, so I have to post this request. I have a response to your post, but I don't want you to take it as a personal attack. A good FG friend was very sensitive about this subject and I ended up walking on egg shells for awhile to keep her from quitting. She quit anyway.
I will respect your request that I leave your post alone; please don't give me permission unless you mean it. :-6
I will respect your request that I leave your post alone; please don't give me permission unless you mean it. :-6
Man's Right to Choose
RedGlitter;678551 wrote:
Do you not think pregnancy is a big deal, Butter? I think carrying a parasitic human inside you for nine months and going through all the unpleasantries of a pregnancy during that time, then having to force that human being out of your body and experience hellish pain is a sacrifice.
For those considering pregnancy other than a few uncomfortable moments the process can also be pure joy :-4
Dont just take Red's word for it :wah:
Do you not think pregnancy is a big deal, Butter? I think carrying a parasitic human inside you for nine months and going through all the unpleasantries of a pregnancy during that time, then having to force that human being out of your body and experience hellish pain is a sacrifice.
For those considering pregnancy other than a few uncomfortable moments the process can also be pure joy :-4
Dont just take Red's word for it :wah:
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Accountable
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RedGlitter;678551 wrote: It's not an illness but it is taxing to the body. The mother's body. And only hers.
Do you not think pregnancy is a big deal, Butter? I think carrying a parasitic human inside you for nine months and going through all the unpleasantries of a pregnancy during that time, then having to force that human being out of your body and experience hellish pain is a sacrifice. I know right now there's a really nasty induhvidual on FG who wants to tear me up for saying this and I'm waiting on him, but I don't take children lightly. In spite of my views on abortion and this issue, they're a big deal to me. I just see it differently than some.
I'm just glad you see it as human while still in the womb. :yh_clap
Do you not think pregnancy is a big deal, Butter? I think carrying a parasitic human inside you for nine months and going through all the unpleasantries of a pregnancy during that time, then having to force that human being out of your body and experience hellish pain is a sacrifice. I know right now there's a really nasty induhvidual on FG who wants to tear me up for saying this and I'm waiting on him, but I don't take children lightly. In spite of my views on abortion and this issue, they're a big deal to me. I just see it differently than some.
I'm just glad you see it as human while still in the womb. :yh_clap
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RedGlitter
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buttercup;678555 wrote: For those considering pregnancy other than a few uncomfortable moments the process can also be pure joy :-4
Oh, I'm not trying to imply that pregnancy isn't a joyous thing. I'm talking barfing, hemmorhoids, constantly having to visit the john, not being able to touch your own feet, having to eat properly and packing on weight and of course PAIN. That can't be denied. We can't pretend the baby just pops out like a pea from a pod.
Dont just take Red's word for it :wah:
Accountable;678557 wrote: I'm just glad you see it as human while still in the womb. :yh_clapYes absolutely and when I said parasitic, I only meant that the baby uses its mother's resources until birth. Maybe a bad choice of word there.
Oh, I'm not trying to imply that pregnancy isn't a joyous thing. I'm talking barfing, hemmorhoids, constantly having to visit the john, not being able to touch your own feet, having to eat properly and packing on weight and of course PAIN. That can't be denied. We can't pretend the baby just pops out like a pea from a pod.
Dont just take Red's word for it :wah:
Accountable;678557 wrote: I'm just glad you see it as human while still in the womb. :yh_clapYes absolutely and when I said parasitic, I only meant that the baby uses its mother's resources until birth. Maybe a bad choice of word there.
Man's Right to Choose
Accountable;678554 wrote: Imladris, I don't feel I know you well enough, so I have to post this request. I have a response to your post, but I don't want you to take it as a personal attack. A good FG friend was very sensitive about this subject and I ended up walking on egg shells for awhile to keep her from quitting. She quit anyway.
I will respect your request that I leave your post alone; please don't give me permission unless you mean it. :-6
Acc - say what you think please. I'm big enough and ugly enough to take it!
Seriously though, I have nothing but respect for you and know that you wouldn't deliberately offend.
I will respect your request that I leave your post alone; please don't give me permission unless you mean it. :-6
Acc - say what you think please. I'm big enough and ugly enough to take it!
Seriously though, I have nothing but respect for you and know that you wouldn't deliberately offend.
Originally Posted by spot
She is one fit bitch innit, that Immy
Don't worry; it only seems kinky the first time
She is one fit bitch innit, that Immy
Don't worry; it only seems kinky the first time
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Accountable
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Man's Right to Choose
Imladris;678561 wrote: Acc - say what you think please. I'm big enough and ugly enough to take it!
Seriously though, I have nothing but respect for you and know that you wouldn't deliberately offend.Thanks. I'm flattered
Imladris;678547 wrote: I do see both points of view and can understand exactly why feelings run so high on this issue it's such a personal and emotive subject.
I have noticed that in the debate so far the actual pregnancy and giving birth has so far been sidelined as if it is a trivial event. Let me just remind you that for a lot of women it is far from that, many women struggle with pregnancy and it is a far from joyable experience and then there is the birth itself.............!!!!Which is why I think it is so very important to consider all this before sex, to discuss it with the man before sex, and to have a plan should all that protection fail.
Imladris wrote: Whilst I appreciate that death in childbirth is fairly rare it does still happen, I'm 40 and during my lifetime I have known 3 or 4 women that have died during or just after childbirth. I was very ill after giving birth and without the excellent care I received my circumstances could have been very different. I'm not sure I could put myself through it for a child I didn't really want.This is a strong argument for abstinance.
Imladris wrote: What happens if the child is disabled and the father decides that he doesn't want it after all? Or if the mother agrees to have the baby and then she decides to keep it but have nothing to do with the father? Or if the mother finds out after giving the baby to the father that she can't have any more children? So many things can go wrong and then the child becomes the subject of a court battle.Please tell me you don't believe that abortion is preferable to any of these relatively trivial matters.
Imladris wrote: Whilst I feel desparately sorry for any man denied the chance to be a father in these circumstances there are more ways to be a parent than by having a baby - there are children crying out to be adopted.KB was talking about continuing his bloodline, so adoption is out in that particular case. I'm all for adoption, too. I don't think anyone should risk bringing a child into this world unless BOTH people are prepared for the lifetime commitment that comes with it.
Seriously though, I have nothing but respect for you and know that you wouldn't deliberately offend.Thanks. I'm flattered
Imladris;678547 wrote: I do see both points of view and can understand exactly why feelings run so high on this issue it's such a personal and emotive subject.
I have noticed that in the debate so far the actual pregnancy and giving birth has so far been sidelined as if it is a trivial event. Let me just remind you that for a lot of women it is far from that, many women struggle with pregnancy and it is a far from joyable experience and then there is the birth itself.............!!!!Which is why I think it is so very important to consider all this before sex, to discuss it with the man before sex, and to have a plan should all that protection fail.
Imladris wrote: Whilst I appreciate that death in childbirth is fairly rare it does still happen, I'm 40 and during my lifetime I have known 3 or 4 women that have died during or just after childbirth. I was very ill after giving birth and without the excellent care I received my circumstances could have been very different. I'm not sure I could put myself through it for a child I didn't really want.This is a strong argument for abstinance.
Imladris wrote: What happens if the child is disabled and the father decides that he doesn't want it after all? Or if the mother agrees to have the baby and then she decides to keep it but have nothing to do with the father? Or if the mother finds out after giving the baby to the father that she can't have any more children? So many things can go wrong and then the child becomes the subject of a court battle.Please tell me you don't believe that abortion is preferable to any of these relatively trivial matters.
Imladris wrote: Whilst I feel desparately sorry for any man denied the chance to be a father in these circumstances there are more ways to be a parent than by having a baby - there are children crying out to be adopted.KB was talking about continuing his bloodline, so adoption is out in that particular case. I'm all for adoption, too. I don't think anyone should risk bringing a child into this world unless BOTH people are prepared for the lifetime commitment that comes with it.
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Betty Boop
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Accountable;678588 wrote:
Which is why I think it is so very important to consider all this before sex, to discuss it with the man before sex, and to have a plan should all that protection fail.
Wow, so all those one night stands that happen out there, thats some serious conversation to be having, coffee really would mean coffee and talking! By the time you'd discussed the if's, buts and maybes the moment would have passed anyway :wah:
We now live in a society that mainly views sex as a hobby, a thrill, not as a union of two people in love.
Which is why I think it is so very important to consider all this before sex, to discuss it with the man before sex, and to have a plan should all that protection fail.
Wow, so all those one night stands that happen out there, thats some serious conversation to be having, coffee really would mean coffee and talking! By the time you'd discussed the if's, buts and maybes the moment would have passed anyway :wah:
We now live in a society that mainly views sex as a hobby, a thrill, not as a union of two people in love.
Man's Right to Choose
Accountable;678588 wrote: Thanks. I'm flattered
Which is why I think it is so very important to consider all this before sex, to discuss it with the man before sex, and to have a plan should all that protection fail.
This is a strong argument for abstinance.
Please tell me you don't believe that abortion is preferable to any of these relatively trivial matters.
KB was talking about continuing his bloodline, so adoption is out in that particular case. I'm all for adoption, too. I don't think anyone should risk bringing a child into this world unless BOTH people are prepared for the lifetime commitment that comes with it.
You thought that might offend?? :wah: Bless you.
I totally agree that contraception or abstinance is far preferable to an abortion but accidents happen - they shouldn't but they do.
Whilst I agree that to some people what you call trivial matters may be but to others they aren't, a disabled child (who may have a reduced life span) is a far from trivial issue if you aren't equipped emotionally to cope with it. I've seen friends left as single parents and that is tough too, not that any of their children were unplanned or unwanted but at the same time they didn't think they'd be left to on their own to rear these planned and wanted kids.
I can understand that KB wants to continue his bloodline but if that doesn't happen his family name can be continued by adoption or surrogacy or sperm donation (yes I know he had a previous girlfriend get pregnant but secondary infertility is common)
OK - lay it on the line - I hate abortion, I believe that life is precious and sacred and that it begins at conception. But (and I know that this contradicts the previous) I am also pro-choice and I would prefer that my daughter has the choice to end an unwanted or non-viable pregnancy than have to continue or worse - go to a back street abortionist and risk her life.
Ultimately it is the woman that has to make these choices (and abortion is a far from easy choice) it is unfair on the man but that imbalance is a price that we pay for having the freedom to control our own lives.
Which is why I think it is so very important to consider all this before sex, to discuss it with the man before sex, and to have a plan should all that protection fail.
This is a strong argument for abstinance.
Please tell me you don't believe that abortion is preferable to any of these relatively trivial matters.
KB was talking about continuing his bloodline, so adoption is out in that particular case. I'm all for adoption, too. I don't think anyone should risk bringing a child into this world unless BOTH people are prepared for the lifetime commitment that comes with it.
You thought that might offend?? :wah: Bless you.
I totally agree that contraception or abstinance is far preferable to an abortion but accidents happen - they shouldn't but they do.
Whilst I agree that to some people what you call trivial matters may be but to others they aren't, a disabled child (who may have a reduced life span) is a far from trivial issue if you aren't equipped emotionally to cope with it. I've seen friends left as single parents and that is tough too, not that any of their children were unplanned or unwanted but at the same time they didn't think they'd be left to on their own to rear these planned and wanted kids.
I can understand that KB wants to continue his bloodline but if that doesn't happen his family name can be continued by adoption or surrogacy or sperm donation (yes I know he had a previous girlfriend get pregnant but secondary infertility is common)
OK - lay it on the line - I hate abortion, I believe that life is precious and sacred and that it begins at conception. But (and I know that this contradicts the previous) I am also pro-choice and I would prefer that my daughter has the choice to end an unwanted or non-viable pregnancy than have to continue or worse - go to a back street abortionist and risk her life.
Ultimately it is the woman that has to make these choices (and abortion is a far from easy choice) it is unfair on the man but that imbalance is a price that we pay for having the freedom to control our own lives.
Originally Posted by spot
She is one fit bitch innit, that Immy
Don't worry; it only seems kinky the first time
She is one fit bitch innit, that Immy
Don't worry; it only seems kinky the first time
Man's Right to Choose
Betty Boop;678591 wrote: Wow, so all those one night stands that happen out there, thats some serious conversation to be having, coffee really would mean coffee and talking! By the time you'd discussed the if's, buts and maybes the moment would have passed anyway :wah:
We now live in a society that mainly views sex as a hobby, a thrill, not as a union of two people in love.
And I find that so sad not to mention worrying as a mother of a soon to be teenager
We now live in a society that mainly views sex as a hobby, a thrill, not as a union of two people in love.
And I find that so sad not to mention worrying as a mother of a soon to be teenager
Originally Posted by spot
She is one fit bitch innit, that Immy
Don't worry; it only seems kinky the first time
She is one fit bitch innit, that Immy
Don't worry; it only seems kinky the first time
Man's Right to Choose
Accountable;678518 wrote: No way. Healthy, respectful debate is what's made FG great. That and goofballs.
love you, too! :p
love you, too! :p
Man's Right to Choose
almostfamous;678714 wrote: Sorry, I had to take a breather from it.
It is a very highly emotional subject for me, obviously, but more than anything I didn't mean to hurt KB with any of my words.
When I saw the OP .. I made comments based on the dead-beat dad population. You have to know when you change something or make a ruling decision for all "men" .. aimed towards the good ones, like our KB .. the bad ones benefit as well. That's something I will fight tooth and nail to prevent. My position stands but I'm very sympathetic to the other side.
Don't take this wrong but do you ever hear of dead beat Mom's? No. Why? Because the single fathers out there take care of their children without the dead mom's help and with out whining. I have a friend who has had his boy for 9 yrs now with no help from mom and no contact. I know there are definetly more dead beat dad's out there but there are also mom's.
It is a very highly emotional subject for me, obviously, but more than anything I didn't mean to hurt KB with any of my words.
When I saw the OP .. I made comments based on the dead-beat dad population. You have to know when you change something or make a ruling decision for all "men" .. aimed towards the good ones, like our KB .. the bad ones benefit as well. That's something I will fight tooth and nail to prevent. My position stands but I'm very sympathetic to the other side.
Don't take this wrong but do you ever hear of dead beat Mom's? No. Why? Because the single fathers out there take care of their children without the dead mom's help and with out whining. I have a friend who has had his boy for 9 yrs now with no help from mom and no contact. I know there are definetly more dead beat dad's out there but there are also mom's.
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Accountable
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Man's Right to Choose
Imladris;678592 wrote: You thought that might offend?? :wah: Bless you.
I totally agree that contraception or abstinance is far preferable to an abortion but accidents happen - they shouldn't but they do.
Whilst I agree that to some people what you call trivial matters may be but to others they aren't, a disabled child (who may have a reduced life span) is a far from trivial issue if you aren't equipped emotionally to cope with it. I've seen friends left as single parents and that is tough too, not that any of their children were unplanned or unwanted but at the same time they didn't think they'd be left to on their own to rear these planned and wanted kids.You missed the word "relatively". All these issues are base trivia compared to killing the child. My dear sis would have a far more bearable life if she hadn't had my neice to take care of alone these almost 30 years now, but she will tell you that all the hell and problems were nothing compared to the blessing of having her special angel.
I totally agree that contraception or abstinance is far preferable to an abortion but accidents happen - they shouldn't but they do.
Whilst I agree that to some people what you call trivial matters may be but to others they aren't, a disabled child (who may have a reduced life span) is a far from trivial issue if you aren't equipped emotionally to cope with it. I've seen friends left as single parents and that is tough too, not that any of their children were unplanned or unwanted but at the same time they didn't think they'd be left to on their own to rear these planned and wanted kids.You missed the word "relatively". All these issues are base trivia compared to killing the child. My dear sis would have a far more bearable life if she hadn't had my neice to take care of alone these almost 30 years now, but she will tell you that all the hell and problems were nothing compared to the blessing of having her special angel.
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Accountable
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almostfamous;678714 wrote: Sorry, I had to take a breather from it.
It is a very highly emotional subject for me, obviously, but more than anything I didn't mean to hurt KB with any of my words.
When I saw the OP .. I made comments based on the dead-beat dad population. You have to know when you change something or make a ruling decision for all "men" .. aimed towards the good ones, like our KB .. the bad ones benefit as well. That's something I will fight tooth and nail to prevent. My position stands but I'm very sympathetic to the other side.
So you would prevent anyone from a right they deserve because someone might abuse it?? Because some are untrustworthy, all must not be trusted??
That's an unacceptable position on just about any issue I could name. Why should it be acceptable in this one?
It is a very highly emotional subject for me, obviously, but more than anything I didn't mean to hurt KB with any of my words.
When I saw the OP .. I made comments based on the dead-beat dad population. You have to know when you change something or make a ruling decision for all "men" .. aimed towards the good ones, like our KB .. the bad ones benefit as well. That's something I will fight tooth and nail to prevent. My position stands but I'm very sympathetic to the other side.
So you would prevent anyone from a right they deserve because someone might abuse it?? Because some are untrustworthy, all must not be trusted??
That's an unacceptable position on just about any issue I could name. Why should it be acceptable in this one?
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Accountable
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almostfamous;678748 wrote: I do recognize that trust me and that really only validates my point.
Dead beat moms are created from the lack of desire of wanting to have, care and nurture their children, same goes for the dads but they should have been more RESPONSIBLE with whom they interacted with sexually and this wouldn't be an issue. I can say that because yes, I've been irresponsible in the past.
Force a woman to have a child that she doesn't want .. for whatever reason .. and tell me that child will not suffer. A child knows their mother's emotions, even in the womb, and will know it's not wanted.
But (s)he IS wanted. That's the point.
Dead beat moms are created from the lack of desire of wanting to have, care and nurture their children, same goes for the dads but they should have been more RESPONSIBLE with whom they interacted with sexually and this wouldn't be an issue. I can say that because yes, I've been irresponsible in the past.
Force a woman to have a child that she doesn't want .. for whatever reason .. and tell me that child will not suffer. A child knows their mother's emotions, even in the womb, and will know it's not wanted.
But (s)he IS wanted. That's the point.