Message to Sinn Fein....

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:39 pm

Irish Americans from across the political spectrum are hugely annoyed with the Irish Republican Movement's recent events involving the IRA, Foreign Affairs Minister, Dermot Ahern said in Washington.

He indicated there was clearly a backlash to the Northern Ireland bank robbery and the killing of Robert McCartney. He went on to say also, that a message was going out that if the IRA did not stop its activities, then traditional Republican supporters in the United States would have nothing to do with Sinn Fein.

Its time that the IRA were history.

Attached files

David813 · Post by **David813** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:50 pm

I sympathize with Real IRA. I'm surprised as an Irishman you aren't opposed to the British occupation of Ulster.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:57 pm

David813 wrote: I sympathize with Real IRA. I'm surprised as an Irishman you aren't opposed to the British occupation of Ulster.The Real IRA, 32 County IRA, Official IRA and Provisional IRA are all one. British occupation? What occupation? Oh you have it wrong Sir,Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom until the people of NI say otherwise.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:59 pm

Do you wish to see all of Ireland become part of the UK?

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:03 pm

David813 wrote: Do you wish to see all of Ireland become part of the UK?We are all part of a Union within the European Union. Borders are gone,didn't you know?

David813 · Post by **David813** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:06 pm

I wish borders were gone but we as a society are far from achieving that level of civilization.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:59 pm

David813 wrote: I wish borders were gone but we as a society are far from achieving that level of civilization.hmmmm:-2

Bothwell · Post by **Bothwell** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:00 am

David, can I just clarify this, you support the Real IRA ?

You may want to google "The Omagh Bomb" and that may change your mind. Even Gerry (I dont know anyone in the IRA) Adams condemns the Real IRA and Sinn Fein for all their ties with the Provo's are at least trying to use the political process, why? because they know it's the only way to succeed.

Even that veteran IRA fundraiser Mr Ted (let me drive) Kennedy refused to meet the bearded one this year.

I reckon it's easy to support the IRA fron Kansas, bit more difficult over here. Northern Ireland is currently part of the United Kingdom and as Buzzard so rightly states will remain so until the people decide. My personal opinion is that a United Ireland is the way to go but until that is voted for it stays as it is.

www.wesleyjohnston.com/ users/ireland/past/omagh/main.html

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:54 am

Bothwell wrote: David, can I just clarify this, you support the Real IRA ?

You may want to google "The Omagh Bomb" and that may change your mind. Even Gerry (I dont know anyone in the IRA) Adams condemns the Real IRA and Sinn Fein for all their ties with the Provo's are at least trying to use the political process, why? because they know it's the only way to succeed.

Even that veteran IRA fundraiser Mr Ted (let me drive) Kennedy refused to meet the bearded one this year.

I reckon it's easy to support the IRA fron Kansas, bit more difficult over here. Northern Ireland is currently part of the United Kingdom and as Buzzard so rightly states will remain so until the people decide. My personal opinion is that a United Ireland is the way to go but until that is voted for it stays as it is.

www.wesleyjohnston.com/ users/ireland/past/omagh/main.htmlGood man Bothwell.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:08 pm

Bothwell wrote: David, can I just clarify this, you support the Real IRA ?

You may want to google "The Omagh Bomb" and that may change your mind. Even Gerry (I dont know anyone in the IRA) Adams condemns the Real IRA and Sinn Fein for all their ties with the Provo's are at least trying to use the political process, why? because they know it's the only way to succeed.

Even that veteran IRA fundraiser Mr Ted (let me drive) Kennedy refused to meet the bearded one this year.

I reckon it's easy to support the IRA fron Kansas, bit more difficult over here. Northern Ireland is currently part of the United Kingdom and as Buzzard so rightly states will remain so until the people decide. My personal opinion is that a United Ireland is the way to go but until that is voted for it stays as it is.

www.wesleyjohnston.com/ users/ireland/past/omagh/main.html

Being from MISSOURI (Kansas City, Missouri) does not mean I can only discuss issues regarding Missouri. I've known several people who sympathize with the IRA and it's goal to drive the British out of Northern Ireland. I read up on the various factions and came away politically sympathetic with Real IRA. No doubt violence is as tragic there as it was here in the U.S. when we resorted to all methods to force Britain out. The word terrorism gets thrown around alot and means different things to different people. I see the war on Iraq terrorism. It is an unfortunately sometimes necessary weapon of the poor man. Surely you recall the Jewish 'terrorists' that drove the British out of Palestine.

Bothwell · Post by **Bothwell** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:48 am

David all that is just fine if you want to be selective in your terrorist choices, how about the UVA and UVF who would like to drive catholics out of Northern Ireland is that ok. How about the palestinians or even Osama who wants infidels out of Saudi.

In fact if you want to use the War of independance as a comparison then I would see a lot of parallels with Iraq, are the guys doing the bombings against the coalition terrorists or feedom fighters ?

How would you feel if native Americans suddenly started bombing US cities ? could this not be justified as a race reclaiming their country. You have to understand that the UK has lived with terrorism for 30 years and more, in certain times bombings and shooting were a daily occurance in Belfast. London, Birmingham and Manchester have also been bombed, London on many occassions. The USA suffered one major terrorist attack, the loss of life was huge and the coalition went to war with Afghanistan because of it. How would the rest of the world have felt if the UK had bombed Dublin in repriasal for IRA attacks.

My point is that there are terrorist groups (like the Provisional IRA) that after years of struggle and violence realise that the ballot box is the only way to solve their issues, that is fine by me. On the other hand there are just plain gangsters (real IRA) who want to exploit a situation for profit. I have witnessed first hand the work of the Real IRA so I am a little biaised.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:33 am

Bothwell wrote: David all that is just fine if you want to be selective in your terrorist choices, how about the UVA and UVF who would like to drive catholics out of Northern Ireland is that ok. How about the palestinians or even Osama who wants infidels out of Saudi.

In fact if you want to use the War of independance as a comparison then I would see a lot of parallels with Iraq, are the guys doing the bombings against the coalition terrorists or feedom fighters ?

How would you feel if native Americans suddenly started bombing US cities ? could this not be justified as a race reclaiming their country. You have to understand that the UK has lived with terrorism for 30 years and more, in certain times bombings and shooting were a daily occurance in Belfast. London, Birmingham and Manchester have also been bombed, London on many occassions. The USA suffered one major terrorist attack, the loss of life was huge and the coalition went to war with Afghanistan because of it. How would the rest of the world have felt if the UK had bombed Dublin in repriasal for IRA attacks.

My point is that there are terrorist groups (like the Provisional IRA) that after years of struggle and violence realise that the ballot box is the only way to solve their issues, that is fine by me. On the other hand there are just plain gangsters (real IRA) who want to exploit a situation for profit. I have witnessed first hand the work of the Real IRA so I am a little biaised.

I oppose the Protestants in Ulster and their militant hate brigades. I also support the Palestinians in their efforts to oust the Zionists from Palestine. Native Americans would get a pass from me if they chose to get some licks in against a government and society that committed full scale genocide against them. The date of these atrocities is irrelevant. Justice knows no time schedule. The bad guys in my eyes are the wealthy in militarily strong countries that use that power to oppress others. Anotherwords, capitalists. I sympathize with the freedom fighters of Iraq in their war against foreign Christian occupation and I nod my head to the RealIRA in their mission to unite Ireland. Unpopular opinions in these parts I assure you! Being a socialist in Kansas City is like being a Jew in Mecca!! Any open minds out there??

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Thu May 19, 2005 10:35 am

David813 wrote: I oppose the Protestants in Ulster and their militant hate brigades. I also support the Palestinians in their efforts to oust the Zionists from Palestine. Native Americans would get a pass from me if they chose to get some licks in against a government and society that committed full scale genocide against them. The date of these atrocities is irrelevant. Justice knows no time schedule. The bad guys in my eyes are the wealthy in militarily strong countries that use that power to oppress others. Anotherwords, capitalists. I sympathize with the freedom fighters of Iraq in their war against foreign Christian occupation and I nod my head to the RealIRA in their mission to unite Ireland. Unpopular opinions in these parts I assure you! Being a socialist in Kansas City is like being a Jew in Mecca!! Any open minds out there??Who was the founder of Socialism? And who founded the Irish Republican Army?

David813 · Post by **David813** » Thu May 19, 2005 3:49 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: Who was the founder of Socialism? And who founded the Irish Republican Army?Frederick Engels & Patrick Pearse.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Thu May 19, 2005 4:03 pm

Long Live Bobby Sands!

Post by **spot** » Thu May 19, 2005 4:14 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: The Real IRA, 32 County IRA, Official IRA and Provisional IRA are all one. British occupation? What occupation? Oh you have it wrong Sir,Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom until the people of NI say otherwise.

I can imagine a time when Sinn Fein hold a majority in both the DÃƒÂ¡il Ãƒâ€°ireann and a resurrected Assembly in the North, Captain, but only if decommissioning were a distant memory, along with the troubles. Say in 20 years from now, a new political generation. It's not that long, comparatively.

If they - Sinn Fein - then call a simultaneous referendum in both parts of Ireland for uniting under a commonwealth umbrella, it might lead to some form of closure. The bigots on both sides have to be neutered, and that might do it. Ireland's too grand a country to be left embittered the way it is.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Thu May 19, 2005 4:37 pm

spot wrote: I can imagine a time when Sinn Fein hold a majority in both the DÃƒÂ¡il Ãƒâ€°ireann and a resurrected Assembly in the North, Captain, but only if decommissioning were a distant memory, along with the troubles. Say in 20 years from now, a new political generation. It's not that long, comparatively.

If they - Sinn Fein - then call a simultaneous referendum in both parts of Ireland for uniting under a commonwealth umbrella, it might lead to some form of closure. The bigots on both sides have to be neutered, and that might do it. Ireland's too grand a country to be left embittered the way it is.I must butt in and agree Spot. The bad feelings persist. The annual celebration of William of Orange's victory over the native Irish is designed specifically to antagonize real Irish. Hatemongering seperatists like Ian Paisley fan the flames and create the need for a more militant approach to the problem from the Real Irish side of this conflict. Occupation is a dirty thing that festers like a cancer. An Irishman that hails the Unionist terrorists is no Irishman at all. For a United Socialist Ireland!! Jail the Unionist militants!!

Post by **spot** » Thu May 19, 2005 4:45 pm

David813 wrote: I must butt in and agree Spot. The bad feelings persist. The annual celebration of William of Orange's victory over the native Irish is designed specifically to antagonize real Irish. Hatemongering seperatists like Ian Paisley fan the flames and create the need for a more militant approach to the problem from the Real Irish side of this conflict. Occupation is a dirty thing that festers like a cancer. An Irishman that hails the Unionist terrorists is no Irishman at all. For a United Socialist Ireland!! Jail the Unionist militants!!Well, to an extent, David, but the nasty chaps who let off the bombs should decide they've had their day and all go home. I'm not refering to Her Majesty's Forces here, either. You do sound a tad shrill and partisan on occasion.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Thu May 19, 2005 4:52 pm

spot wrote: Well, to an extent, David, but the nasty chaps who let off the bombs should decide they've had their day and all go home. I'm not refering to Her Majesty's Forces here, either. You do sound a tad shrill and partisan on occasion.Tis a war being fought Spot! Give up to the British funded thugs in Orange and "go home?" It is necessary to be shrill and partisan in conflict/occupation. Should the Palestinians just "Go home?" Be less shrill? Be less partisan? If a people or cause are up against an imperialist occupying power you fight with what you have. This is the committment the RealIRA is willing to make. Negotiating with apartheid terrorists either in Ulster or in Palestine is the road to submission.

Post by **spot** » Thu May 19, 2005 4:59 pm

David813 wrote: Tis a war being fought Spot! Give up to the British funded thugs in Orange and "go home?" It is necessary to be shrill and partisan in conflict/occupation. Should the Palestinians just "Go home?" Be less shrill? Be less partisan? If a people or cause are up against an imperialist occupying power you fight with what you have. This is the committment the RealIRA is willing to make. Negotiating with apartheid terrorists either in Ulster or in Palestine is the road to submission.David, this isn't a game, and I never said "go home" to anyone. The negotiated path to a just solution is well on track. There is no excuse or justification for any more deaths on either side. I have my view of how progress can be made, the Captain has his, and neither of us would want that progress to be accompanied by gunfire, extortion or threat. Ian Paisley and his associates revel in the wild words that you're pouring out, it empowers them. I would much rather that you stopped.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Thu May 19, 2005 5:05 pm

spot wrote: David, this isn't a game, and I never said "go home" to anyone. The negotiated path to a just solution is well on track. There is no excuse or justification for any more deaths on either side. I have my view of how progress can be made, the Captain has his, and neither of us would want that progress to be accompanied by gunfire, extortion or threat. Ian Paisley and his associates revel in the wild words that you're pouring out, it empowers them. I would much rather that you stopped.I do take all world conflicts very seriously. The US SWP has a position on all of them. It is no game. We won't stop calling out the enemy in these conflicts. Progress begins with the expulsion of the Orange Order mafia from the Irish Republic. The erasure of the border dividing the country and reparations to Real Irish in Ulster. Finally a socialist government being installed and a break of all economic/cultural and military ties to the UK. This is the view of the US revolutionary socialist movement concerning Ireland.

Post by **spot** » Thu May 19, 2005 5:11 pm

David813 wrote: Progress begins with the expulsion of the Orange Order mafia from the Irish Republic.You can't DO that, you strange man, they and their ancestors have lived there for hundreds of years. This isn't a question of coercion, it's a question of balance and closure between a large number of factions, most of which have been severely hurt for far too many years.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Thu May 19, 2005 6:18 pm

spot wrote: You can't DO that, you strange man, they and their ancestors have lived there for hundreds of years. This isn't a question of coercion, it's a question of balance and closure between a large number of factions, most of which have been severely hurt for far too many years.Extreme problems require extreme solutions. Happens all the time.

Post by **spot** » Thu May 19, 2005 6:33 pm

David813 wrote: Extreme problems require extreme solutions. Happens all the time.It's not an extreme problem to anyone living in Ireland, that's half the point. It's an extreme problem to the Palestinians, for example. Ireland isn't Palestine. No part of Ireland has been like any part of Palestine in my lifetime.

http://www.themilitant.com/2004/6848/684810.html is the current position of SWP/US as far as I can make out. It's a balanced and fair reflection of the current position there. It has nothing about "expulsion of the Orange Order mafia from the Irish Republic" or "a break of all economic/cultural and military ties to the UK". I don't think your posts reflect the SWP/US position remotely, David. I hesitate to sound offensive, but you have all the feel of an agent provocateur about you.

Rather than adding "This is the view of the US revolutionary socialist movement concerning Ireland." to your views, it would sound more convincing if you could find something they've published that backs up your extreme analysis.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Thu May 19, 2005 6:47 pm

spot wrote: It's not an extreme problem to anyone living in Ireland, that's half the point. It's an extreme problem to the Palestinians, for example. Ireland isn't Palestine. No part of Ireland has been like any part of Palestine in my lifetime.

http://www.themilitant.com/2004/6848/684810.html is the current position of SWP/US as far as I can make out. It's a balanced and fair reflection of the current position there. It has nothing about "expulsion of the Orange Order mafia from the Irish Republic" or "a break of all economic/cultural and military ties to the UK". I don't think your posts reflect the SWP/US position remotely, David. I hesitate to sound offensive, but you have all the feel of an agent provocateur about you.

Rather than adding "This is the view of the US revolutionary socialist movement concerning Ireland." to your views, it would sound more convincing if you could find something they've published that backs up your extreme analysis.I am thrilled you found our link. We are the Communist League in the UK. I am poor at posting links and don't know how to do searches where I COULD present more info on all the elements that make up the SWP/USA. I'm at work and have little time to explore all that the computer can do. Agent provocateur? I suppose anyone who's political convictions lay outside centrism or conservatism is just a troll. Heard it before from others that refuse to believe there are well read politically trained and seasoned people in the world that don't subscribe to capitalist thinking or bend over for all it's so called solutions to the problems of the world. I'm not a 20 year old burning off youth. At age 41, games do not appeal to me. Driving away from the thread to stop the discussion because you dislike views outside the mainstream isn't what FG is about.

Post by **spot** » Thu May 19, 2005 7:02 pm

David813 wrote: Heard it before from others that refuse to believe there are well read politically trained and seasoned people in the world that don't subscribe to capitalist thinking or bend over for all it's so called solutions to the problems of the world.Of course there are such people, David. Such people include those at SWP/US. The views you have espoused in this thread, though, do *not* reflect SWP/US views as expressed in the link I posted. Claiming to reflect SWP/US views while advocating the expulsion of tens of thousands of people from the land of their birth doesn't benefit left-wing politics in the least. If you're speaking for yourself, then speak for yourself, but don't drag an honorable thoughtful socialist outfit through the mud in the process. Equating extremist provocation with left-wing policy is uncalled for and, in the case of Ireland, inaccurate. By all means, David, challenge my left-wing credentials, but do it with citations rather than simply your opinion!

David813 · Post by **David813** » Thu May 19, 2005 7:11 pm

spot wrote: Of course there are such people, David. Such people include those at SWP/US. The views you have espoused in this thread, though, do *not* reflect SWP/US views as expressed in the link I posted. Claiming to reflect SWP/US views while advocating the expulsion of tens of thousands of people from the land of their birth doesn't benefit left-wind politics in the least. If you're speaking for yourself, then speak for yourself, but don't drag an honorable thoughtful socialist outfit through the mud in the process. Equating extremist provocation with left-wing policy is uncalled for and, in the case of Ireland, inaccurate. By all means, David, challenge my left-wing credentials, but do it with citations rather than simply your opinion!Sounds like you'll simply have to adapt to my opinion until I get computer lessons. Since you know so much about the SWP/US tell me which faction I am from. Dying to hear your reply.

Post by **spot** » Thu May 19, 2005 7:38 pm

David813 wrote: Sounds like you'll simply have to adapt to my opinion until I get computer lessons. Since you know so much about the SWP/US tell me which faction I am from. Dying to hear your reply.I have no idea what sort of labels you'd use in the USA for left-wing movements, least of all for "factions" - all I can do is put the words together that you presumably consider your core values - anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist, common ownership of the means of production, proletarian, disempower the fascistic petty-bourgeoisie, class-abolitionist, pro-manufacturing, anti-State. All laudable stuff, I'm not sure where you place your emphasis most.

What you can't do is hijack the Irish problem, especially from your safe distance, and advocate killing for the sake of advancing your own agenda, at the expense of theirs. That's not socialism, that's cynicism and opportunism.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Thu May 19, 2005 8:19 pm

spot wrote: I have no idea what sort of labels you'd use in the USA for left-wing movements, least of all for "factions" - all I can do is put the words together that you presumably consider your core values - anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist, common ownership of the means of production, proletarian, disempower the fascistic petty-bourgeoisie, class-abolitionist, pro-manufacturing, anti-State. All laudable stuff, I'm not sure where you place your emphasis most.

What you can't do is hijack the Irish problem, especially from your safe distance, and advocate killing for the sake of advancing your own agenda, at the expense of theirs. That's not socialism, that's cynicism and opportunism.I'm on the Stantis wing of the Party where Bolshevik purists dwell. Not a one of us is involved in authoring the Militant newspaper. I respectfully disagree that I come from opportunism and cynicism. We are Internationalists and aren't bound to the "closest to the US" countries when constructing policy. We have a position on Iran, Sudan, Indonesia and Ukraine as well. I regret you dismiss my points in the Ireland struggle against British occupation. It appears New Labourites and US Marxists are nowhere close to seeing eye to eye. I'll leave the thread to the Captain and yourself.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 20, 2005 5:13 am

David813 wrote: Frederick Engels & Patrick Pearse.Karl Marx and Edward Fitzgerald

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri May 20, 2005 2:17 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: Karl Marx and Edward FitzgeraldWRONG.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 20, 2005 2:51 pm

David813 wrote: Long Live Bobby Sands!He is dead

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri May 20, 2005 3:15 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: He is deadSo is Jesus, Marx & Lenin.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 20, 2005 3:16 pm

David813 wrote: So is Jesus, Marx & Lenin.hohoho

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri May 20, 2005 3:17 pm

David813 wrote: WRONG.Engels pre-dates Marx and Edmund Fitzgerald was a ship that sank in Lake Superior.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 20, 2005 3:20 pm

David813 wrote: Engels pre-dates Marx and Edmund Fitzgerald was a ship that sank in Lake Superior.Do you know anything about Irish history? And its Edward Fitzgerald of 1798

www.iol.ie/~98com/

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri May 20, 2005 3:28 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: Do you know anything about Irish history? And its Edward Fitzgerald of 1798

www.iol.ie/~98com/Have you not noticed I know more about Irish history than the vast majority of Yanks? Is no one as learned and brilliant as the Captain & Tenille?

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 20, 2005 3:30 pm

David813 wrote: Have you not noticed I know more about Irish history than the vast majority of Yanks? Is no one as learned and brilliant as the Captain & Tenille?You are getting better at it;)

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri May 20, 2005 3:34 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: You are getting better at it;)Tanks Mate!!:yh_peace

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 20, 2005 3:37 pm

David813 wrote: Tanks Mate!!:yh_peaceAnd another thing, I'm not one bit interested in what goes on in the mid east. We have more than enough to contend with here in Ireland and the Europe

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri May 20, 2005 3:50 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: And another thing, I'm not one bit interested in what goes on in the mid east. We have more than enough to contend with here in Ireland and the EuropeThe fires of yonder burn until we all smell them. All battles are one battle.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 20, 2005 3:54 pm

David813 wrote: The fires of yonder burn until we all smell them. All battles are one battle.Ask the CIA

RedSoxFan · Post by **RedSoxFan** » Fri May 20, 2005 5:51 pm

David 813 seems really smart. i wonder what turned hm comunist.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri May 20, 2005 6:04 pm

RedSoxFan wrote: David 813 seems really smart. i wonder what turned hm comunist.You are SO right RedSock! I AM smart. I turned away from bourgeois politics in the early 80's and found revolutionary socialism much more logical. It identified the true enemy: The USA and Israel.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 20, 2005 6:21 pm

David813 wrote: You are SO right RedSock! I AM smart. I turned away from bourgeois politics in the early 80's and found revolutionary socialism much more logical. It identified the true enemy: The USA and Israel.Whatever happened to the Desktop Generals.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri May 20, 2005 6:23 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: Whatever happened to the Desktop Generals.Is that a metal band??

turbonium · Post by **turbonium** » Sat May 21, 2005 12:37 am

It identified the true enemy: The USA and Israel.

Don't you really mean the Rothschild cabal?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat May 21, 2005 12:19 pm

posted by david813

You are SO right RedSock! I AM smart. I turned away from bourgeois politics in the early 80's and found revolutionary socialism much more logical. It identified the true enemy: The USA and Israel.

May be logical but completely ignores human nature viewing mankind as a cogs in a machine waiting for the enlightened and more intelligent revolutionary socialist to show them the way. Breathtaking in it's arrogance it has all the hallmarks of a fundamentalist religon with the proponents more interested in arguing about the word and with each other to the extent that becomes the reason for their existence, spouting revolutionary slogans the way a fundamentalist priest spouts the bible calling on the brethern to rise up in the name of Jesus-sorry revolution. A passe form of intellectual masterbation that has had it's day.