ID cards and civil disobedience

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:20 pm

Right, you ungrateful lot. It's time for a serious thread, I think.

The US passed a bill entitled the Real ID Act on May 11, 2005. The bill compelled states to design new driver's licenses to comply with federal antiterrorist standards. Federal employees will reject licenses or identity cards that don't comply, starting in December 2009 (that's deferred from the original date of May 11 2008). If you don't carry one you'll be barred, for starters, from air travel, national parks and federal property - I'm sure the list will grow subsequently. The Real ID Act establishes what amounts to a national identity card for American citizens.

Got that bit? Read it again if you're not sure.

Part of the "federal antiterrorist standard" is that the card has a RFID tag built into it. That allows it to be read from a distance, whether you take it out and show it or not. Effectively it's a passive transmitter that responds to any powered reader within receiving range. It identifies who you are. It's not just law enforcement who have readers, most shops will have them too. They're used at checkouts. They're the modern-day version of bar-codes and they're coming in fast. I've bought things with them on, I'm sure you have too. It's what makes shop or library alarms beep if you try to take out goods without paying for them, or books without checking them out at the desk. They're getting smaller than they used to be.

Some states are fighting Congress over it. They're not likely to get it rescinded.

What I suggest, for anyone who wants to push this thread along, is a quiet personal viewing of a movie I bet you've never heard of which actually got into a few theaters last year, called "America: From Freedom to Fascism". It's available to view over the Internet. For free, even. All it costs you is 107 minutes of your life. Make sandwiches, get a beer.

That's my bit done. I'll join in with anyone who posts.

The link again? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3867390173

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:23 pm

Grrr....this already goes against everything I believe in. I'll watch that film and get back to this.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:36 pm

I was hoping you might. It's better than television and there's no advertising or product placement.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:52 pm

Dang it. I saw the part about income tax but I can't get the Google Player to work. It says it's corrupted. I am *slightly* familiar with these ID cards, at least I have heard about them. What am I missing in the film to be able to talk about them? I don't want to be ignorant but I want in on this discussion. As you probably figured, I am dead against this idea. They can excuse it by labeling it anti-terrorist but what they should call it is Orwellian.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:53 pm

magenta flame;650892 wrote: Could you describe the video to me ? It's points etc?Really, watching it is just a joy MF, it's far better than a summary. It's a hoot.This documentary covers many subjects regarding tax protester arguments including: the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), income tax, the Federal Reserve System, national ID cards (REAL ID Act), human-implanted RFID tags (Spychips), Diebold electronic voting machines, globalization, the possibility of America becoming a police state, Big Brother, and the alleged use of terrorism by government as a means to diminish the citizens' rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America:_F ... to_Fascism

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:54 pm

I don't get the resistance to a national ID card. That's what a passport is. That's what a Social Security number has become.

The tracking & logging bit is definitely over the line, but it's not necessarily a slippery slope.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:55 pm

RedGlitter;650908 wrote: Dang it. I saw the part about income tax but I can't get the Google Player to work. It says it's corrupted. I am *slightly* familiar with these ID cards, at least I have heard about them. What am I missing in the film to be able to talk about them? I don't want to be ignorant but I want in on this discussion. As you probably figured, I am dead against this idea. They can excuse it by labeling it anti-terrorist but what they should call it is Orwellian.

You should be able to right-click, save-as and download it from http://vp.video.google.com/videodownloa ... 3867390173

but - I did watch it all through on Google this evening. Maybe a second try might be worth it.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:58 pm

Accountable;650914 wrote: I don't get the resistance to a national ID card. That's what a passport is. That's what a Social Security number has become.

The tracking & logging bit is definitely over the line, but it's not necessarily a slippery slope.

A passport is far more optional than a driver's license, a Social Security number doesn't have to be produced on demand to law enforcement, and the slippery slope starts wherever you decide to dig your heels in. The trick is to dig in at the same moment the rest of the population does, or you all fall over one by one.

Papers please. May I see your papers? You have to accompany me to the precinct station sir, while we confirm your identity. This is a Tazer and I'm quite willing to use it.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:06 pm

magenta flame;650922 wrote: So spot are you more concerned with the policing of it? A policman will ask you for ID. If you are driving you are required to hold a lisence , if you cannot produce that lisence then alternative ID is acceptable to establish an identity. If you cannot produce this you are detained anyway until they can prove an identity.

It has nothing whatever to do with driving, MF. The OP mentions "If you don't carry one you'll be barred, for starters, from air travel, national parks and federal property - I'm sure the list will grow subsequently".

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:10 pm

I'm still working on that link, Spot. Haven't given up yet.

I can only imagine the kind and amount of personal info they can read on us from "afar." I expect someone to pop out of the woodpile and say "I have nothing to hide!" But that's not the point. I'm getting warm already. I'm looking forward to sinking my teeth into this topic.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:11 pm

magenta flame;650929 wrote: I'm cool with federal buildings and air travel but why National parks? why do you have to show ID to go camping?

Are you afraid it's 1984 stuff?

YES.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:17 pm

The main problem I have with it is that it can be read from a distance without you knowing it's being read, by anyone at all who has the technology. You can be utterly certain that employers will track employees around their workplaces with it, that shops will note who comes into their premises and where they browse. Law enforcement is the least of it.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:33 pm

magenta flame;650943 wrote: Have you ever gone for Goverment employment ? Been in the armed forces? Worked in a public hospital? Had a police check done so as to work with children or a job?The main problem I have with it is that it can be read from a distance without you knowing it's being read, by anyone at all who has the technology. I'm not sure you heard me last time.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:35 pm

magenta flame;650943 wrote: Have you ever gone for Goverment employment ? Been in the armed forces? Worked in a public hospital? Had a police check done so as to work with children or a job?

But Magenta that stuff is voluntary. If you don't want the gov'tment to know all about you, don't take a job with them, or join the service or work in a hospital. That's the difference- this card and what it provides is not voluntary. Our right to priivacy is being degraded even more.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:39 pm

I'm quite sure that if I find myself being grilled by a friendly plainclothes officer in Criminal Investigations he'll have a copy of this thread at his disposal as well. That's already done. I'm talking about your personal identity being trackable by a lot more people than just the filth.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:51 pm

magenta flame;650948 wrote: What I'm trying to say here is that someone can always delve into your private affairs from afar any time they want to

there's no need to be rude about it.Nobody disputes the information that can be found. The difference of emphasis is the trackability of the identification, without your explicit consent. Once it's done I'll be able to set up an ID checking monitor in my house and have a full list of everyone who walked past outside - date, time, direction of travel and who they were with. If I can do it you can bet Walmart won't be far behind me.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:55 pm

Do you really not see the value of that sort of information to employers? Or Walmart, if I can use them as an exemplar of commercial interest?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:59 pm

magenta flame;650953 wrote: OK out of all the billions of people in the world who wants to know who your with and what your doing with whom....................who could possibley be that interested in you that they would take time out of their busy lives just to track you down to see what you're up to at any given moment ?

Just tell me who?

Magenta, that's naive, no disrespect intended. That goes right along with "I've nothing to hide." Creditors, divorce attorneys, social services, etc etc etc would be privy to all kinds of stuff they don't need to know about. Why make it easier for people to get this info without your explicit consent?

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:03 pm

Just as an instance, I can guarantee that all those LCD adverts you see in town centres - they line the escalators on London's underground stations now, for example - will have talking heads saying things like "Hey Magenta, you're low on Persil Non-Bio Washing Powder, you'd better drop into Tesco on the way home tonight" when you get within four feet of each. Come on, Google already personalises its adwords whenever you search, it's exactly he same concept. All the system needs is for you to carry a readable ID within range of the advert. Maybe they'll let you pay to override the advertisers and get soothing music instead. I do not want that level of assault on my senses.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:29 pm

The idea is to prevent it from happening.

The more power the government has, the less YOU have.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:41 pm

No, that's called a biometric passport, not a national ID card.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:55 pm

The biometric part means it records details of your person which can be checked if needed, to prove that the carrier is who it was issued to (what the photo used to be considered good enough for in the old days), like a digitally-expressed sequence of your DNA (from a cheek-swab) or a fingerprint or an eye-scan. The machine-readable-at-a-distance bit is different but yes, you've probably got that as well.

G-man · Post by **G-man** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:55 pm

...and I was expecting a serious discussion... *begins to head back to the butter thread...*

It at least seemed somewhat serious until I reached the bottom (finally) of the first post... that was until I read that this film was by Aaron Russo... the same Russo that failed miserably at a run for the presidency back in '04... the same Aaron Russo that owes millions of dollars in tax liens filed by the IRS... and all because he can't seem to understand the difference between Title 26 of the United States Code and Title 26 of the Code of Federal Regulations...

...the same Aaron Russo that went to Cannes to promote this "documentary" by setting up an inflatable movie screen on the beach in the city of Cannes... NOT at the actual site of the Cannes film festival and personally lauded it as "America: Freedom to Fascism Opens to Standing Ovations at Cannes!" :wah:

I actually attempted to view the film that was less Michael Moore (at least his *cough* "documentaries" are entertaining in parts...) and more well... Zecharia Sitchin. :p

I finally had to call it quits after he, within fifteen minutes, managed to cut and paste , paraphrase, misquote, and take out of context several of Woodrow Wilson's attributed quotes; notes a seriously questionable quote that some have attributed to Mussolini; and partially quote, (and COMPLETELY take out of context!) Bill Clinton. :wah:

Perhaps instead of offering this documentary free to the public, he could've made enough to pay the taxes he owes to the IRS... just a thought. Perhaps, too, if Mr. Russo actually understood which Title 26 that the IRS referred him to, he'd have realised his ignorance and he wouldn't be in this situation or would've ever wasted his time making a documentary about him being pissed at the IRS. Perhaps when he gets out of prison for tax evasion, he'll come up with a better idea for a documentary about say... the mistreatment of prisoners. :wah:

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:47 am

magenta flame;650929 wrote: I'm cool with federal buildings and air travel but why National parks? why do you have to show ID to go camping?

Are you afraid it's 1984 stuff?
I've never been comfortable with federal control of private enterprise such as air travel. Airlines should handle their own security and be allowed to accept or deny any customer as other private businesses do.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:55 am

spot;650952 wrote: Nobody disputes the information that can be found. The difference of emphasis is the trackability of the identification, without your explicit consent. Once it's done I'll be able to set up an ID checking monitor in my house and have a full list of everyone who walked past outside - date, time, direction of travel and who they were with. If I can do it you can bet Walmart won't be far behind me.
Sounds like there will be a market for a wallet that blocks the signal. Any electronic engineers up for the challenge?

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:59 am

G-man;651047 wrote: and all because he can't seem to understand the difference between Title 26 of the United States Code and Title 26 of the Code of Federal RegulationsThe United States Code is statute law. The Code of Federal Regulations mirrors statute law, so the numbering necessarily parallels the United States Code. Title 26 of both consequently relates to Internal Revenue. The section of Title 26 at issue relates to Income Tax. You say the man misspoke himself at some point? I do that sometimes too. You can afford to be a little more forgiving.

"The regulations are treated by the courts as being as legally binding as statutory law, provided the regulations are a reasonable interpretation of the underlying statutes". Income tax protesters allege that these particular regulations have no effect because the underlying statutes are ill-constructed and consequently void. They maintain several arguments to this effect. They say that the 14th Amendment was never properly ratified by three quarters of the states and even if properly ratified, the Amendment stated explicitly the it didn't introduce any new form of taxation. Secondary to that last point is a contention that prior to the 14th Amendment, a tax on personal income as apportioned by the US Federal Government was unconstitutional.

One may reasonably assume that all of these arguments are cute but incorrect. Anyone wishing to convince themselves of the "incorrect" bit can read the Tax Protester FAQ and save themselves a lot of heartache fighting the IRS.

There's a lot in the movie that's interesting, G-man. I'd not have posted the link to it if I hadn't intended people to watch it to the end. The discussion of IRS agents' behaviour is interesting and informative in its own right. The subsequent topics stand independent of the IRS section with which the movie begins. As far as whether Americans have a legal obligation to file financially accurate annual income tax returns goes - of course they do.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:36 am

I actually watched the first 20 minutes of that film and I also have not made it to the part about ID cards. The opening of the film is almost intolerable. The ego of the filmmaker is brutally obvious and there is no way in hell I'm going to make it to the section you were wanting to discuss.

Please summarize or present the information that you'd wanted to discuss. It's almost 2 hours long. That appears to be about an hour beyond my tolerance for a film of poor quality.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:54 am

btw, I scanned ahead and over an hour into the damn thing they still weren't talking about the ID cards. Perhaps this thread is really about taxes?

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:10 am

Gosh, someone got out of bed on the wrong side this morning then.

I did, earlier, post a URL to a complete summary of the content for those incapable of finding the time to watch. As I say, I enjoyed watching it.

G-man · Post by **G-man** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:36 am

spot wrote:

You say the man misspoke himself at some point? I do that sometimes too. You can afford to be a little more forgiving.

Misspoke himself at some point?! The man misspoke himself at every point in the first fifteen or twenty minutes of time I wasted watching that BS. As far as what I can and cannot do... I'll decide that for myself, thank you very much. How about I tell you what you can do with this thread? :sneaky:

Even after hearing factual information that the "documentary" is total rubbish... you still cling to the belief that the "documentary" is still "interesting"? Are you serious? More interesting perhaps, but only in the sense that the Gin Blossoms made Jives more interesting. :wah:

koan;651195 wrote: btw, I scanned ahead and over an hour into the damn thing they still weren't talking about the ID cards. Perhaps this thread is really about taxes?

Yeah, the link has little or nothing to do with this thread... much in the same manner as this thread has nothing to do with serious discussion. Bwahahaha! :wah:

*Heads off to check out one of TruthBringers latest threads...*

Post by **spot** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:59 am

G-man;652221 wrote: As far as what I can and cannot do... I'll decide that for myself, thank you very much. How about I tell you what you can do with this thread? :sneaky: The door, dear boy, is located behind you. Shut it quietly on the way out please. I'm so glad I didn't write "you are obliged to participate in this thread and watch this video" anywhere or I'd be feeling guilty of an imposition.