Okay I'm concerned

Post by **spot** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:41 am

magenta flame;633613 wrote: If you were to say that America was the greatest country in the world in the fifties I would have agreed with you, but to say it now?That, I think, is a mistake. For decade after decade exactly the same devastating interference in internal affairs around the world went unchecked under the spurious excuse of containing communism (or, more recently, containing "terrorism") where no threat whatever to the integrity of the US existed, and the fifties was as full of it as this decade or the last has been. To focus on just the fifties would be informative. Italy and Greece, for example? Costa Rica and Guatemala? Syria and Iran? Indonesia and the Philippines? Pick any one of them and I'll post a couple of paragraphs illustrating the truth of it. Every intervention was against the national interest of the country concerned and in every case the excuse given was a lie, just as it is today.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:16 am

Yeah, its the Swedes I hate, bloody do-goodin peace niks, damn them, the devils. My favorites are the Transinistrians, or maybe the Montenard people of Vietnam, now they are cool (whoever they are), but don't tell the Vietnamese that.

Magenta, don't worry, I know its the Welsh you really despise, with that singing, and plots to corner the worlds leek supplies.

Spot, yes power is a terrible thing, but I would take western power over any other form of power any day. I think also that in looking at the current position of the world, its pretty obvious that the British and French (and other) colonial empires and their moral and financial collapse has more to do with where we find ourselves than simply blaming everything on the yanks. Also, I think that western countries are not the only actors in these things, and to claim otherwise is a little disengenuous. No?

As for me, I think, well, thats for another thread, but America is fine, its the world thats screwed. Though the latest Paris Hilton episode does lead one to suspect that western culture is a little decadent at present, oh well, what can you do???

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:28 am

what is wrong with a child in Palistine doing the same thing? What is wrong with a Russian child doing the same thing? What is wrong with an Indonasian child doing the same thing. What is wrong with the chechian child doing the same?

EVERYTHING IS WRONG WITH IT!

When you teach a child that the citizens of their country are more important than another that's when you breed comtempt. Thats when people see others as worth blowing up! I don't understand how anyone can think that way.

I hate to nitpick but its reasonable to assume a citizen can take pride in their countries essence without demeaning another for their honor. I get chills during the National Anthem but its ludicrous to assume that I feel superior because of it.

I and Ill say most others are able to see the bigger picture. One thing I can say about this countries people is that the common man/woman have genuine compassion. Youd really have to just share an elevator or stand in line at the grocery store with your neighbor to absorb that.

Most of us arent gun toting flag waving pulpit preaching seperatists.

The Rob · Post by **The Rob** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:01 am

I've said many times that I feel fortunate to have been born American. It's the truth. Does that mean I feel America is a great nation? Hell, no. The potential is here but it's squandered, and our government consists of The Old Rich Guy Club. You can't build or maintain a great nation from the top down if those at the top are fat, happy, complacent, and all too willing to keep the status quo. The arrogance of our leadership is stunning, and the current administration appears to be a band of robber-barons. We're mired in a war the reasons for which are propped up on cardboard legs. We're teaching our youth via Madison Avenue the joys and diversions of runaway consumerism, and next to nothing about civic duty and responsibility. Add to all this the fact that our conspicuous consumption is helping to sicken the very Entity that sustains us all.

I feel fortunate to have been born an American because it beats tribal genocide and fundamentalist dictatorialism (although there are those of the Far Right here that wouldn't mind that, I'm sure). I feel fortunate that I can walk the streets with the fairly secure knowledge that a truckload of militia won't careen around a corner and open fire on me or spirit me away at gunpoint. I can live my life with a high degree of faith that I won't be imprisoned for my religious beliefs, my political affiliations, or my debts.

My country is effed up, no argument, but it's all a matter of degree, folks.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:06 am

I, Rob;633719 wrote: I've said many times that I feel fortunate to have been born American. It's the truth. Does that mean I feel America is a great nation? Hell, no. The potential is here but it's squandered, and our government consists of The Old Rich Guy Club. You can't build or maintain a great nation from the top down if those at the top are fat, happy, complacent, and all too willing to keep the status quo. The arrogance of our leadership is stunning, and the current administration appears to be a band of robber-barons. We're mired in a war the reasons for which are propped up on cardboard legs. We're teaching our youth via Madison Avenue the joys and diversions of runaway consumerism, and next to nothing about civic duty and responsibility. Add to all this the fact that our conspicuous consumption is helping to sicken the very Entity that sustains us all.

I feel fortunate to have been born an American because it beats tribal genocide and fundamentalist dictatorialism (although there are those of the Far Right here that wouldn't mind that, I'm sure). I feel fortunate that I can walk the streets with the fairly secure knowledge that a truckload of militia won't careen around a corner and open fire on me or spirit me away at gunpoint. I can live my life with a high degree of faith that I won't be imprisoned for my religious beliefs, my political affiliations, or my debts.

My country is effed up, no argument, but it's all a matter of degree, folks.

Indeed.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:14 am

I, Rob;633719 wrote: I've said many times that I feel fortunate to have been born American. It's the truth. Does that mean I feel America is a great nation? Hell, no. The potential is here but it's squandered, and our government consists of The Old Rich Guy Club. You can't build or maintain a great nation from the top down if those at the top are fat, happy, complacent, and all too willing to keep the status quo. The arrogance of our leadership is stunning, and the current administration appears to be a band of robber-barons. We're mired in a war the reasons for which are propped up on cardboard legs. We're teaching our youth via Madison Avenue the joys and diversions of runaway consumerism, and next to nothing about civic duty and responsibility. Add to all this the fact that our conspicuous consumption is helping to sicken the very Entity that sustains us all.

I feel fortunate to have been born an American because it beats tribal genocide and fundamentalist dictatorialism (although there are those of the Far Right here that wouldn't mind that, I'm sure). I feel fortunate that I can walk the streets with the fairly secure knowledge that a truckload of militia won't careen around a corner and open fire on me or spirit me away at gunpoint. I can live my life with a high degree of faith that I won't be imprisoned for my religious beliefs, my political affiliations, or my debts.

My country is effed up, no argument, but it's all a matter of degree, folks.

:yh_clap :yh_clap

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:42 am

Why all the negativity , We get hurt we all feel the same pain , we get cut and we all bleed the same red blood , no matter where you were born or what color you are , we are all human beings , Peace to All Mankind :-4

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:46 am

Uncle Fester;633755 wrote: Why all the negativity , We get hurt we all feel the same pain , we get cut and we all bleed the same red blood , no matter where you were born or what color you are , we are all human beings , Peace to All Mankind :-4

BURN HIM !

The Rob · Post by **The Rob** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:53 am

Nomad;633762 wrote: BURN HIM !

:wah:

minks · Post by **minks** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:00 am

magenta flame;633613 wrote: I've recieved a PM that has eluded to the fact that I "hate Americans".

It actually concerns me that certain members that I hold in great esteem think that I hate Americans. This actually upsets me because nothing could be further than the truth. And I apologise if this has come to be the belief .

and this is how I state my case.

I'm Australian by birth only, My family grew up here and it's all down to a randy little Scot who decided he'd make a fortune by coming across the seas. Do some DNA testing across the seas and you'll find I'm related to many across the pacific I'm sure.

DO I have aboriginal blood ? Well I didn't get my nose from the English side:wah: but it's not spoken about ...so there you go.

I don't vote. I don't salute a flag I refuse to sing a national anthem.

My reason ? okay I ask you, when a child stands in America and sings the anthem and salutes a flag you applaud that child do you not? when a british child stands and sings God Save the Queen do you not feel proud? Does it not bring a tear to your eye? We are suddenly seeing the same in Australia, suddenly children not in scouts or guides or cadets are suddenly made ( sorry brow beaten ) to sing the national anthem and be all patriotic like.

Okay fine..............that's great and all warm and cushy. what is wrong with a child in Palistine doing the same thing? What is wrong with a Russian child doing the same thing? What is wrong with an Indonasian child doing the same thing. What is wrong with the chechian child doing the same?

EVERYTHING IS WRONG WITH IT!

When you teach a child that the citizens of their country are more important than another that's when you breed comtempt. Thats when people see others as worth blowing up! I don't understand how anyone can think that way.

Do I hate Americans? NO do I hate your government and the out of date clandestine policies it has throughout the world ? Absolutely! since the iron curtain came down your government has gone totally unchecked no one is holding them to account..........If you were to say that America was the greatest country in the world in the fifties I would have agreed with you, but to say it now? Take a look around you, if you are great because of military might again I would agree with you but for the average citizen .....................Well I look and I listen and I feel sorry fory our circumstance.

Do I hate Americans? No do I hate your government? YES and what it is doing to you? YES do I hate the web of lies it is wielding around the world? Yes.

to you yourselves ....................I see you as any citizen of this earth.............But I see every citizen of this earth equally..........with all the bumps and bruises you are all equal to me.

The Nuremburg defence just doesn't convince me anymore.

Wow Mag. Sorry to hear of the accusations.

I would like to say as a Canuck (Canadian) many of us share that belief as well. We as a small country (power that is) have struggled for decades to come out from under the mighty USA. It isn't because we dislike them it's because the government has controlled us long enough. And sadly yes we still have to "sleep" with them but we are making progress. We will never be cut free nor taken over completely but we are learning to work parallell with them while standing up for ourselves.

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:35 am

Nomad;633762 wrote: BURN HIM !
That won't work ,I wear asbestos jocks, so peace to all mankind except Nomad :p

KB. · Post by **KB.** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:37 am

What almostlost said, sorry I had to do it. There is nothing wrong with expressing yourself, but don't be upset when someone doesn't agree, and decided to express back. You have said some things that I, I am not including anyone else in it, thought were hurtful. Words to me hold a great power, they can be read, re-read, dissected, read again, edited, read again, ferment in your brain, read again, and then used as a guideline to make your own words. I certainly don't hold any ill will towards you, hell I wrote you a story.

minks · Post by **minks** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:40 am

Uncle Fester;633916 wrote: That won't work ,I wear asbestos jocks, so peace to all mankind except Nomad :p

Gnome you been cursed!

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:42 am

The PM was probably just fester stalking you..

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:08 am

zinkyusa;633925 wrote: The PM was probably just fester stalking you..
Wrong I only stalk scantily dressed women (all Races ) between the ages of 18 and 95 years :sneaky:

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:01 pm

I really don't believe there's anything wrong with saluting your country's flag or singing your national anthem. There's a long way between having pride for your country and thinking you're superior because of your country.

There is tons wrong with America. Definitely. As there is with any country. The smart among us silly ol' Yanks know this.

magenta, as for sounding like you hate Americans.... just recently you called me "an all knowing American" because I was teasing you a little bit about a habit of yours. And I never meant to seriously offend you! I'm sure you remember the thread. And I countered by asking you how my nationality had anything to do with the subject, since you seemed to think it did. How does that not sound like, at least, a little disdain??

Someone who's willing to spout off about someone's nationality as a defense tactic surely has some issues with them?? Just my understanding, anyway.

Midnight Sun · Post by **Midnight Sun** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:20 pm

I'm somewhat disturbed by this thread. Admittedly, I new around here, but I have a very different perspective on nationalism and much of what the original poster says.

When you boil it all down, it all comes down to Iraq. The media portrays it one way and the activists portray it another but the point of view that never gets told is that of the ones living through it. Having lived for 6 months at Balad Air Base, I've seen it. I've had the mother come up to me and say "Thank You." I've seen the smile on the kid's face. I've seen the anguish and pain over loved one lost to sectarianism, killed because they believe a different version of the same thing. And after seeing that, I'll argue until I'm blue in the face that we belong there. Go there. See it. See the conditions of that country. Volunteer to stand there and say, "I'm doing this to help make your life better." We stood up for those people that couldn't stand up for themselves. Ride home on a cargo plane with flag draped caskets. Did those men and women die for something? The media and activists will have you think that they didn't. They did. They died for the belief that our way of life, the idea that we all have value and we all deserve to be heard, the idea that the very right and freedom to say that we don't belong there was paid for in blood by the men and women who wore the uniform before us. Hate our government all you want. Those of us who wear that flag that you feel shouldn't be honored are making the world safe for you to feel that way.

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:17 pm

:yh_clap :yh_clap :yh_clap <----- to Midnight Sun. I'm so glad someone has stood up and told it like it is. I was disturbed by this thread, too. To think that some believe it's wrong to be proud of where you live and come from, wherever that may be.

I saw a young man in uniform in the store the other day. I wanted to go up to him and shake his hand. I didn't do it, 'cause I was afraid I'd embarrass myself! But, I really should have. The troops need to know how much they're appreciated. I certainly don't have the brass balls to lay my life on the line like that.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:16 pm

laneybug;634280 wrote: :yh_clap :yh_clap :yh_clap The troops need to know how much they're appreciated. I certainly don't have the brass balls to lay my life on the line like that.

Much respect to the soldiers who stand on the front line and risk their lives - equally, much contempt for the politicians who send them into battle at no risk to themselves.

I'm with Magenta on this, an attack on the government is not an attack on the people and I too have been accused of being anti American because I do not support the current administration's foreign policy. I truely believe that those who start a war are warmongers and should be procecuted as such - as individuals, not as a nation.

And neither do specific examples of gratitude cut much ice - you cannot argue the general from the specific and have you asked the families of the hundreds of thousands who've been killed as a result of this war how grateful they are it was started?

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:26 pm

magenta flame;633613 wrote: I've recieved a PM that has eluded to the fact that I "hate Americans".

It actually concerns me that certain members that I hold in great esteem think that I hate Americans. This actually upsets me because nothing could be further than the truth. And I apologise if this has come to be the belief .

and this is how I state my case.

I'm Australian by birth only, My family grew up here and it's all down to a randy little Scot who decided he'd make a fortune by coming across the seas. Do some DNA testing across the seas and you'll find I'm related to many across the pacific I'm sure.

DO I have aboriginal blood ? Well I didn't get my nose from the English side:wah: but it's not spoken about ...so there you go.

I don't vote. I don't salute a flag I refuse to sing a national anthem.

My reason ? okay I ask you, when a child stands in America and sings the anthem and salutes a flag you applaud that child do you not? when a british child stands and sings God Save the Queen do you not feel proud? Does it not bring a tear to your eye? We are suddenly seeing the same in Australia, suddenly children not in scouts or guides or cadets are suddenly made ( sorry brow beaten ) to sing the national anthem and be all patriotic like.

Okay fine..............that's great and all warm and cushy. what is wrong with a child in Palistine doing the same thing? What is wrong with a Russian child doing the same thing? What is wrong with an Indonasian child doing the same thing. What is wrong with the chechian child doing the same?

EVERYTHING IS WRONG WITH IT!

When you teach a child that the citizens of their country are more important than another that's when you breed comtempt. Thats when people see others as worth blowing up! I don't understand how anyone can think that way.

Do I hate Americans? NO do I hate your government and the out of date clandestine policies it has throughout the world ? Absolutely! since the iron curtain came down your government has gone totally unchecked no one is holding them to account..........If you were to say that America was the greatest country in the world in the fifties I would have agreed with you, but to say it now? Take a look around you, if you are great because of military might again I would agree with you but for the average citizen .....................Well I look and I listen and I feel sorry fory our circumstance.

Do I hate Americans? No do I hate your government? YES and what it is doing to you? YES do I hate the web of lies it is wielding around the world? Yes.

to you yourselves ....................I see you as any citizen of this earth.............But I see every citizen of this earth equally..........with all the bumps and bruises you are all equal to me.

The Nuremburg defence just doesn't convince me anymore.

This site likes to PM bash. I suspect the behind the covers means that person is WAY TOO INSECURE to state their opinions openly. Don't worry about some elses opinion of you. I like you...........OOPPS..that might get you in trouble too. :wah:

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:50 pm

Nomad;633670 wrote: what is wrong with a child in Palistine doing the same thing? What is wrong with a Russian child doing the same thing? What is wrong with an Indonasian child doing the same thing. What is wrong with the chechian child doing the same?

EVERYTHING IS WRONG WITH IT!

When you teach a child that the citizens of their country are more important than another that's when you breed comtempt. Thats when people see others as worth blowing up! I don't understand how anyone can think that way.

I hate to nitpick but its reasonable to assume a citizen can take pride in their countries essence without demeaning another for their honor. I get chills during the National Anthem but its ludicrous to assume that I feel superior because of it.

I and Ill say most others are able to see the bigger picture. One thing I can say about this countries people is that the common man/woman have genuine compassion. Youd really have to just share an elevator or stand in line at the grocery store with your neighbor to absorb that.

Most of us arent gun toting flag waving pulpit preaching seperatists.

I was going to say something but this about covers it for me...

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:03 pm

Midnight Sun;634224 wrote: I'm somewhat disturbed by this thread. Admittedly, I new around here, but I have a very different perspective on nationalism and much of what the original poster says.

When you boil it all down, it all comes down to Iraq. The media portrays it one way and the activists portray it another but the point of view that never gets told is that of the ones living through it. Having lived for 6 months at Balad Air Base, I've seen it. I've had the mother come up to me and say "Thank You." I've seen the smile on the kid's face. I've seen the anguish and pain over loved one lost to sectarianism, killed because they believe a different version of the same thing. And after seeing that, I'll argue until I'm blue in the face that we belong there. Go there. See it. See the conditions of that country. Volunteer to stand there and say, "I'm doing this to help make your life better." We stood up for those people that couldn't stand up for themselves. Ride home on a cargo plane with flag draped caskets. Did those men and women die for something? The media and activists will have you think that they didn't. They did. They died for the belief that our way of life, the idea that we all have value and we all deserve to be heard, the idea that the very right and freedom to say that we don't belong there was paid for in blood by the men and women who wore the uniform before us. Hate our government all you want. Those of us who wear that flag that you feel shouldn't be honored are making the world safe for you to feel that way.
I'm proud of you, young bro'