To answer a few bits and pieces, Channel 4 is an independent television station in the UK, not as well established as ITV
The report said that it was DEFINITELY the Americans who were to blame, and they quoted the figures (which I can`t honestly remember exactly), saying that the USA produced more pollution than any other country (ie, China, India, etc) at about 30% of the world`s output.
As a specific example, few Americans hang out their washing on lines to dry outside even if the weather is good. This overuses reliance on electricity, etc.
I`m an open-minded individual and I personally love what I`ve seen of America. I also love polar bears and seals (even if they do eat fish!)
skittles2004 wrote: Yanks??? i always here that. exactly what is a yank!
Yanks and Rebels faught in your civil war way back. Don't ask me who was south and who was north I can't recal.
�You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.�
john8pies wrote: Many thanks for all your comments on this.
To answer a few bits and pieces, Channel 4 is an independent television station in the UK, not as well established as ITV
The report said that it was DEFINITELY the Americans who were to blame, and they quoted the figures (which I can`t honestly remember exactly), saying that the USA produced more pollution than any other country (ie, China, India, etc) at about 30% of the world`s output.
As a specific example, few Americans hang out their washing on lines to dry outside even if the weather is good. This overuses reliance on electricity, etc.
I`m an open-minded individual and I personally love what I`ve seen of America. I also love polar bears and seals (even if they do eat fish!)
I was only reporting what I saw!
Pssst Majority of polar bears and seals reside in Canada
Hanging out laundry is bad due to polution tee hee hee
�You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.�
wow, nice screed. i'll approach it in my usual point-by-point style.
gmc wrote: Let me see now, if we listen to environmentalists we have pleasant surroundings, lots of wildlife new forms of transport that don't rely on fossil fuels and lead to new industries springing up and the oil companies make less profit unless thay realise their goal is to provide energy for industry and start spending on alternative sources in which case they will benefit greatly in the long run.
so you're saying that all "environmentalists" have these uniform goals, none of them have any other agendae? that's a pretty remarkable assertion. i've never known a consolidated, wide-ranging group under the umbrella term "environmentalists" who have such astoundingly consistent goals and ethical standards.
If we don't listen then we have polluted rivers full of chemicals containing oestrogen changing the make up of society in startling way, our agriculture is based on a few genetically modifeied plants supplied by seed companis that can charge what they like and incredibly vulnerable should anything actually be wrong with gm technology which we won't know about till after it happens. Oil is a finite resource, it will run out but not in our lifetime or maybe even our grandchildren's lifetime but it will run out why wait till it runs out before you make plans for an alternative. Basically we are up **** creek withoput a paddle.
here you seem to be saying that, in contrast to the uniformely ethical, honest, an incorruptible environmentalists, those who are *not* "environmentalists" are explicitly and uniformely dishonest, greedy, destroyers of land, air and water, and are, implicitly, incapable of the high values of environmentalists a priori. That's also a remarkable claim.
Assuming chemical companies and other industry will always behave responsibly is leaving our planet as a hostage to fortune.
assuming that all 'environmentalists' have your best interests at heart leaves us hostage to many who wish not what is good for us, but to impose their beliefs on others, by force. think PETA.
Those who disparage environmemtalists as tree huggers and closet commies do so because they want to stop people thinking about it and leave them alone to do what they want.
are you suggesting that's taken place in this topic, or is that just a general rumination for our edification? if the former, citations, please.
True global warming may be a farse as anastrophe says. Poo Poo all you like about global warming, it is only a theory but if it is proven true we are stuffed. The nay sayers are like the guys on the titanic going "naw it won't happen we're unsinkable" let's do lunch. Even if it does we get first go at the lifeboats the riff raff are locked down below. Personally I want to make sure the lifeboats work.
i could similarly characterize those who are promulgating the global warming hysteria as guilty of both crying wolf, and maintaining that the sky is falling. these hysterics want to take an utterly unproven theory, and use it as an excuse to operate on humanity with an axe (with apologies to eric hoffer).
(actually you can just imagine Noah's fellow villagers going, come on Noah we need the wood for cooking it's not going to rain)
can you imagine the followers of Jim Jones, some 600 of them, following their spiritual leader into the amazon, then committing suicide because he says it's the right thing to do?
Actually the EEC is just as bad as americans at this kind of thing. BP and Shell are not american. One difference is they can't completely ignore the green lobby, as BP found out being boycotted very soon made them listen.
you seem to be suggesting that here in america, the 'green lobby' is completely ignored. i'd be curious what your basis for that assertion is. there is absolutely no shortage of environmental groups in this country, and they weild significant power.
Oil prices are rising because demand is rising and will continue to rise as Russia and China get going, the us imports oil, I read somewhere youi have something like 3% of the total oil reserves, even with alaska this rises to 5% (correct me if I'm wrong) your economy is dependant on oil, it's not just about burning it in SUV's.
yes, that's not exactly a news bulletin. what is your point?
You're doing a pretty good job of wrecking your economy yourselves because you seem convinced the rest of the world owes you a living.
now *that's* a remarkable assertion! we're wrecking our economy, is that so? and please do tell me what countries we are holding our hand out to, begging for help? oh, right. it's the other way around. an honest mistake i'm sure.
A lot of US companies don't compete any more they try and stifle competition you stop imports to protect your industry, like you did with european steel, which may have helped steel workers but hurt other industries forced to buy more expensive US steel.
this is very old news. this is also not unique to the US. tariffs and subsidies are a normal part of trade balance, and sometimes the politicians go overboard. the market corrects itself in the long run.
They cpmplain about EEC labelling regulations on GM crops because they realise that many europeans will not buy GM foods.
so what? are we to understand that because they complain, you-all are going to just roll over and change your regulations? since when is complaining wrong. oh, a little tidbit: you eat 'gm' food every day.
You bleat about cheap labour overseas taking jobs. Why not blame the US companies that are doing that are exporting the jobs? They sell their goods in the US every time you buy one of their products you just gave tacit approval.
this really has become just a generalized screed against the US, hasn't it old boy? explain the relevance of cheap labor politics to global warming.
instead of making better cars, the UK tried to control imports, now we have no car industry left except the foreign owned companies making them here and niche manufacturers. Do people feel sympathy for Rover workers, yes they do, did they buy their cars, no because they were crap and no one owes them a living. Does it bother us that our car industry is foreign owned, no we are a trading nation and always have been. British companies do well in other countries and invest in them also that is the nature of business.
okay. what's your point? there are car manufacturers that have died here in the US, too. so what?
You need government and laws to control big business and keep it in its place not to try and run it or impose too much red tape unless it is a level playing field of red tape throughout-if you get my drift. We learned the hard way, you can't prop up ailing businesses just because they are having trouble competing.
you honestly think that the same has not and does not obtain here in the US? do you know how many tens of billions of dollars the government has pumped into failing car makers, and other industries, with no positive end result? there's a lot less of that going around these days. or do you base all of your judgement on america fifteen and twenty years ago, when we made these same mistakes?
Stop assuming everybody wants to destroy american industry, if you keep thinking like that you will have no industry worth destroying.
wow. nice. i can't speak for anyone else, but *i* haven't stated or assumed that 'everybody wants to destroy american industry'. where do you get that? or are you merely extrapolating from my being against the wretched excess that is the kyoto accord, to my believing everyone is out to get us?
Keep working the way you have been then we will be able to sell you, at a good price for bulk, all the green technology everybody else has been working on.
now you're just trying to make me laugh. let me guess - you believe the UK is at the forefront of research, discovery, and innovation regarding 'green' technologies, am i right? oh ha ha ha ha ha, that really is a knee-slapper! stop it, you're making my sides ache!
If China can get more fuel efficient engines what do you think they will buy?
great big hint: more fuel efficient does not directly equal less polluting. all new cars that are sold in the US have at least one, often two catalytic converters on them, a pollution control device that has been required since 1975. it adds about $100 to $400 to the cost of every car. they reduce gas mileage to some degree, because of the back pressure inherent in their design. they have been instrumental in turning the air that was chockingly bad in some metropolitan areas of this country into *cleaner* air than in many non-industrialized areas. guess what? china has no interest in $300 catalytic converters. absolutely, positively, none.
EU diesel technology for small cars is already way ahead of the US. Ironically it was because of lobbying by the environmentalists, germany and france reduced the tariffs on diesel to make it considerably cheaper than petrol, the result? Most of the cars on the road in france and germany are diesel, the money pouring in to research led to massive improvements, now they are flogging them to the chinese.that's great. too bad diesel pollutants are worse for health than gasoline pollutants. also too bad that it takes 20% more crude oil to make a gallon of diesel than it takes to make a gallon of gasoline. not exactly a good way to reduce oil consumption when it takes *more* of the raw product to make the stuff!
In the UK we are behind because the petrol companies don't want to see their profits drop and the chancellor needs the tax revenue. Sore point diesel cars are sold at a premium here which is annpying cos I want another one.
you'd be better off with a hybrid gasoline vehicle, like the Toyota Prius sold here in the US (and so popular that it can take more than a year to get one after you buy it!)
Keep kidding yourself that kyoto is about destroying US industry,
it is. why else would it have severe penalties for US pollution, and practically none for China, India, and other 'developing' countries? it's all about punishing the US. no more, no less.
stay uncompetitive and stuck in the past,
we are competitive and we're not stuck in the past. so nyah.
blame foreign competition and anti americanism for your own failures you may think the world depends on america but it doesn't.
well, that's a great summation line. your argument has little to do with global warming, and everything to do with resenting america. oh well.
nvalleyvee wrote: I'm sorry your native people were wiped out in Missouri - we are talking about raping the the Artctic Tundra - some of the last know true wildlife refugee. Could you survive in that environment?If I were raised in that environment I'm sure I could survive. I do not belong there now though as I am not a native of the area.
"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group that believes you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas millionaires, or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." [font=Arial Narrow][/font]
so you're saying that all "environmentalists" have these uniform goals, none of them have any other agendae? that's a pretty remarkable assertion. i've never known a consolidated, wide-ranging group under the umbrella term "environmentalists" who have such astoundingly consistent goals and ethical standards.
here you seem to be saying that, in contrast to the uniformely ethical, honest, an incorruptible environmentalists, those who are *not* "environmentalists" are explicitly and uniformely dishonest, greedy, destroyers of land, air and water, and are, implicitly, incapable of the high values of environmentalists a priori. That's also a remarkable claim.
Nope, I was using the term generally, I have little time for anti technology type environmentalists either, subsistence economies only seem idyllic when you have a choice in the matter, Don't know about the US but in this country most of the "alternative lifestylers" are well off and don't need to make a living from their eco friendly cottage industry.
but lumping then all together as nutters is just as bad as assuming all industry together as despoilers of the environment, both sides have good points to make but there are a lot of companies that are environmentally conscious because they have been forced to be.
assuming that all 'environmentalists' have your best interests at heart leaves us hostage to many who wish not what is good for us, but to impose their beliefs on others, by force. think PETA.
See above, I don't assume, we have a term here "environmantal fascists" to describe some of the more extreme.
i could similarly characterize those who are promulgating the global warming hysteria as guilty of both crying wolf, and maintaining that the sky is falling. these hysterics want to take an utterly unproven theory, and use it as an excuse to operate on humanity with an axe (with apologies to eric hoffer).
They do have a point, something is happening to our weather system what and how serious is worth considering, I'm not too impressed with some of the counter theories either, given the potential consequences of environmental damage I think caution is warranted.
can you imagine the followers of Jim Jones, some 600 of them, following their spiritual leader into the amazon, then committing suicide because he says it's the right thing to do
Oh yes, how about the ones who thought they were going on to that comet? If they do harm others they can do what they like so far as I am concerned, are yo suggesting their religon should be banned (kidding)
yes, that's not exactly a news bulletin. what is your point?
We all need to think about alternatives to oil for running cars. Oil has other uses.
that's great. too bad diesel pollutants are worse for health than gasoline pollutants. also too bad that it takes 20% more crude oil to make a gallon of diesel than it takes to make a gallon of gasoline. not exactly a good way to reduce oil consumption when it takes *more* of the raw product to make the stuff!
That's is one of the stories out about by the petrol lobby, the evidence does not stack up. The diesel engine is a high pressure one, you do not need to burn oil form fossil fuels, vegetable oil burns just as well if it could be produced economically enough to make it viable, maybe when oil gets above $100 a barrel, who knows. In Vienna all the buses run on bio diesel, faint smell of chipfat everywhere.
you seem to be suggesting that here in america, the 'green lobby' is completely ignored. i'd be curious what your basis for that assertion is. there is absolutely no shortage of environmental groups in this country, and they weild significant power.
Nope I'm not but, i do have the impression that they are on the back foot at the moment against big business, how accurate that is I don't know. They don't have a lot of clout here in the UK but they do have effect on single issues, In the likes of germany the green party do quite well, here they are a fringe party.
now *that's* a remarkable assertion! we're wrecking our economy, is that so? and please do tell me what countries we are holding our hand out to, begging for help? oh, right. it's the other way around. an honest mistake i'm sure.
this is very old news. this is also not unique to the US. tariffs and subsidies are a normal part of trade balance, and sometimes the politicians go overboard. the market corrects itself in the long run.
The two are related, e.g. you put up trade barriers against foreign steel protecting your steel producers from the need to modernise, you complain about foreign imports when you don't get your own way with the EEC over your gm foods you stamp your foot complain it is anti american and threaten to have a trade war putting tariffs on EU goods instead of negotiating and appreciating the fact that we want to know what is in the food and that the concern is legitimate.
That is the way it is portrayed in european press (well british anyway). The reality is many in europe will not buy GM foods if it is labelled as such the US comes across as objecting and arguing the policy is specifically anti US.
You are in danger of wrecking your economy by perpetuating this belief that action taken against big business by governments in the EU and elsewhere is motivated by nothing more than anti americanism. When your steel industry shuts down it's not because they have lost out in a competitive world market it's because of anti americanism. When americans buy Hondas and Hyundias in preference to Chevrolet somehow that is the fault of the japanese and Koreans not of the people refusing to buy GM or Ford. When textile manufacture moves to vietnam and china it's the fault of the vietnamese or the chinese not of the company moving abroad or the people who are happy to buy foreign made goods.
It's a global economy the days when the US and europe took in raw materials and exported high value manufactured goods are gone, things are changing all the time, interesting times as they say.
so what? are we to understand that because they complain, you-all are going to just roll over and change your regulations? since when is complaining wrong. oh, a little tidbit: you eat 'gm' food every day.
I hope not cos i don't think we should. That is rather the point it should be a choice about what you eat not have it hidden from you. We have had a number of major scandals about our food content, it would be fair to say we don't trust the food companies any more. Stuff that was overtly GM and labeeled as containing it suffered a major boycott and was taken off the shelves of the supermarket, now it's sneaking back in.
It's not just the GM part per se but the concomitamnt used of herbicides tc that cause concern. We are a small country and intensive farming has caused a lot of danmage that most people have seen for themselves, dead rivers, oestrogen in fish, acid rain so when people tell us something is good for us and good for the environment the first response is sceptical in the extreme.
this really has become just a generalized screed against the US, hasn't it old boy? explain the relevance of cheap labor politics to global warming.
Well all these companies are locating in the far east where environmental and labour laws make it cheaper. New factories new pollution. You need to get off this anti american thing, I would levy exactly the same points at the EU, British, german, french companies they are all at it as well. It's a general comment about companies doing what they always do, looking after their bottom line. Nowadays many of them are supranational with budgets bigger than the GDP of some countries.
The point I was making was if you don't like jobs going overseas don't buy the products from the companies that are doing it.
In the UK a lot of financial services companies moved their call centres to India and places like that. Many are now reviewing their policy for the simple reason it is costing them business as people put the phone down. The likes of Nike suffered a campign in the US did it not with their shops being picketed for exploiting their workers?
now you're just trying to make me laugh. let me guess - you believe the UK is at the forefront of research, discovery, and innovation regarding 'green' technologies, am i right? oh ha ha ha ha ha, that really is a knee-slapper! stop it, you're making my sides ache!
Sadly no we're not, though given our natural abilities and general talent we should be. All our best scientists and engineers tend to go aboroad to get jobs with foreign companies. We rather lost our industrial dominance because we started thinking people would buy just because it's british, that's what happened to our car industry, they forgot the world didn't owe them a living.
it is. why else would it have severe penalties for US pollution, and practically none for China, India, and other 'developing' countries? it's all about punishing the US. no more, no less.
You're the biggest comnsumers and polluters at the moment, what is your suggestion then. The US just walked away.
well, that's a great summation line. your argument has little to do with global warming, and everything to do with resenting america. oh well.
Get over this everybody hates the US idea, global warming is a global problem and everybody is responsible not just US companies, believe it or not there are companies out there that are not american and that are just as capable of causing problems, china is about to add considerably to the problem as is Russia.
But every time it gets brought up suddenly it becomes oh that is just anti american and designed to wreck our economy. Sometimes i think you have all been brainwashed by big business in the US to stop you using your critical faculties to question what you are told. Stop feeling sorry for yourselves and telling everybody how much the world owes america, maybe go with the global village idea a bit more.
