The Arctic is melting. Are the Americans to blame?!

john8pies · Post by **john8pies** » Mon May 09, 2005 12:26 pm

Just seen a news item on Channel 4 saying that vast over-consumption by the Americans is responsible for the eating of the ozone layer above the Arctic Circle, which has resulted in more ice flows and makes it more and more difficult - and it may soon become impossible - for the indigenous population to carry out their traditions of seal-clubbing and polar bear-hunting for food and fur. In fact, they`re apparently ready to take the USA to the international courts or UN to get them to stop.

Don`t know about anybody else, but quite frankly I feel nauseated at the thought of people clubbing seals and hunting polar bears, anyway, so I hope they`re not successful.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon May 09, 2005 12:30 pm

American over-consumption is the cause of a depleting ozone layer. Now I have heard absolutely everything.

Is there anything in the world that someone won't blame on America? Anything at all?

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Mon May 09, 2005 12:32 pm

"The Arctic is melting. Are the Americans to blame?"

No. next question.

minks · Post by **minks** » Mon May 09, 2005 12:38 pm

BabyRider wrote: American over-consumption is the cause of a depleting ozone layer. Now I have heard absolutely everything.

Is there anything in the world that someone won't blame on America? Anything at all?

Well I ummm have this hang nail, y ou see and well uhhh gee isn't it your guys fault tee hee hee.

BR I have to agree with you it is getting a little sickening that America is being seen as the cause of all the world horrors. I am sure per capita, every bloody country contributes. I can't see Asia, Europe etc as being any less offensive maybe just in different ways.

minks · Post by **minks** » Mon May 09, 2005 1:21 pm

flopstock wrote: Starting to get the feeling that perhaps a laxative is in order for some of you. Seems you are unable to have a thought that is not geared toward taking a dump on america. How about -you just sit down and get on with the job? Let it out and don't stop until there is nothing left. Then flush it from your systems and pick any other topic in the universe to harp on..

Is there so little else in your lives? Or is the intent of your posts to turn me from a liberal into a staunch conservative?

Hope you meant that tongue in cheek and not thinking the general forum is pooping on America, or that the American posters are uptite.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon May 09, 2005 1:23 pm

I agree with the popluation control aspect. I disagree with the "blame America for it" aspect.

minks · Post by **minks** » Mon May 09, 2005 1:42 pm

Jiperly wrote: But Canadian laws are Americans fault(somehow) :yh_eyebro

Slapping my knee laughing my ass off on that one

minks · Post by **minks** » Mon May 09, 2005 1:56 pm

flopstock wrote: Absolutely 'tongue in the cheek above my shoulders'. LOL

Most of the group in here are totally fascinating for me to watch. You have a wide range of interests and appear open to ideas from other members. I learn something from different ones of you every day, in spite of myself. Swear to god I even get a laugh out of Agnes every time I find her...

But I've started avoiding threads because of the posters , as much , if not more, then I search out threads because of who's posting. The title of this one just happened to push my button...

Aww don't avoic posts because of some posters, jump on in and contribute. We can't all like everyone here.

Ohhh button pushing huh, you ought not reveal that to many folks hehehehe

Well I can say one thing that irks me about "american" generalizations... DO FOLKS FORGET us Canadians are Americans, we all reside in North America, so I get irked about the general "american" slams.

minks · Post by **minks** » Mon May 09, 2005 2:04 pm

ok then we need a new name for the folks from the USA because we all come from the Americas soo what do ya suggest??

Silly settlers thinking america would be all one country one day sheesh.

minks · Post by **minks** » Mon May 09, 2005 2:16 pm

ooo skittles is gonna kick yo ass for that one.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon May 09, 2005 2:35 pm

minks wrote: ooo skittles is gonna kick yo ass for that one.And I'm gonna let her borrow my motorcycle boots to do the job right!! :yh_bigsmi

minks · Post by **minks** » Mon May 09, 2005 3:02 pm

Jiperly wrote: Well then what would you name Americans?

Anything but Americans, cause ya got Canadians, Mexicans, and all those folks in the south Americas, fairly broad if you ask moi.

I dunno maybe they could think of that them selves.

I recall in the 70-'s and 80's it was a very redneck thing here to call them "yanks" hehehehe

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon May 09, 2005 3:04 pm

posted by jiperly

Well then what would you name Americans?

Why don't you stick with Canadian and let them have American? After all do you want to be called after an Italian that got lost going to India?

minks · Post by **minks** » Mon May 09, 2005 3:06 pm

gmc wrote: posted by jiperly

Why don't you stick with Canadian and let them have American? After all do you want to be called after an Italian that got lost going to India?

Do we want to know? Tee hee hee

I think they will remain Americans for ever indeed, but as I said above "American" covers many a country.

Philadelphia Eagle · Post by **Philadelphia Eagle** » Mon May 09, 2005 3:10 pm

I hope you're joking, John, for if not you have a nasty surprise coming.

For your information the UN is held in comtempt here.

They are presently under scrutiny by Congress for their theft of millions of dollars they received as part of the Iraq Oil For Food Program

Their Secretary General - Kofi Annan - is likely to face charges of unlawful concealment of facts both in connexion with the aforementioned Oil For Food Program and for unlawfully allowing his son -Koko- to be employed by one of the UN's agencies. Koko then made off with several million dollars!

The UN is corrupt beyond belief and will soon have to pay the price for being found out.

The fact that the USA pays no less than 30% of the UN's funding is about to come to an abrupt halt.

Surely even the left biased UK press have reported the true facts of this ongoing saga.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon May 09, 2005 3:15 pm

john8pies wrote: Just seen a news item on Channel 4 saying that vast over-consumption by the Americans is responsible for the eating of the ozone layer above the Arctic Circle, which has resulted in more ice flows and makes it more and more difficult - and it may soon become impossible - for the indigenous population to carry out their traditions of seal-clubbing and polar bear-hunting for food and fur. In fact, they`re apparently ready to take the USA to the international courts or UN to get them to stop.

Don`t know about anybody else, but quite frankly I feel nauseated at the thought of people clubbing seals and hunting polar bears, anyway, so I hope they`re not successful.

I have a degree in environmental science - which does NOT make me an expert on the subject - just someone who has had the opportunity to study environmental issues in a little more depth than most people. I also have my own opinions about how the general public views environmental issues - another thread - another time. ANYWAY, from my perspective and study, the Earth has gone through many of these warming and cooling trends. It just so happens the last cooling trend (what we know as the Ice Age) ended 18,000 years ago - a blink in Earth time (a long time in human time) and now the Earth is warming again - no big deal and nobody to blame. As for clubbing seals and hunting polar bears, it is my opinion that no one should be allowed to do that but the indigenous people upon whose survival these practices depend.

kmhowe72 · Post by **kmhowe72** » Mon May 09, 2005 5:37 pm

I just hope it doesn't turn into a desaster like on the day after tormorrow. Anyway I think everyone is to blame. And we don't get channel four here so please in lighten us on where that is.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Mon May 09, 2005 5:45 pm

Philadelphia Eagle wrote: I hope you're joking, John, for if not you have a nasty surprise coming.

For your information the UN is held in comtempt here.

They are presently under scrutiny by Congress for their theft of millions of dollars they received as part of the Iraq Oil For Food Program

Their Secretary General - Kofi Annan - is likely to face charges of unlawful concealment of facts both in connexion with the aforementioned Oil For Food Program and for unlawfully allowing his son -Koko- to be employed by one of the UN's agencies. Koko then made off with several million dollars!

The UN is corrupt beyond belief and will soon have to pay the price for being found out.

The fact that the USA pays no less than 30% of the UN's funding is about to come to an abrupt halt.

Surely even the left biased UK press have reported the true facts of this ongoing saga.Actually only rightwing nutjobs feel contempt for the UN in the US. We were a major player in creating the UN to bring a post WW2 world together. It had an important role in bringing the standards of it's membership up from the Dark Ages of battle. It coordinated relief efforts, aid in famines and stability to unstable regions. There was a code of conduct members had to adhere to and that benefited the world as a whole. As soon as the US began openly violating the rules we helped set in place the rightwing nuts saw an opportunity to demonize the UN and ignore ALL it stood for! Now the US has a rightist chimp in office that declares the UN IS CORRUPT!:yh_rotfl This from the most corrupt Western govt. on Earth! And WE will REFORM the UN! Who are the Yanks to reform an international body! We broke the rules we set ourselves and now the most deranged of the right and their corrupt Prez in DC are going to call them corrupt! The US will 'reform' them?? The US has proven it's hostility to the rest of the world and that arrogance should lead to a US withdrawal from the UN. Fortress America it is. The UN would be MUCH better off without Americans.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Mon May 09, 2005 6:33 pm

And to go direct to the thread subject; YES. The US is to blame for global warming. In reality we are only a part of the problem but once again arrogance comes with a price! As the self proclaimed "Leaders of the World" we place ourselves in a more responsible seat. Responsibility is not something the current junta understands but being the so-called sole superpower we have a responsibility to be mature in decisions that affect the world. Kyoto is just one example of our failure at looking beyond the profits of our Saudi financed Prez & his Mafia. People will laugh at global warming and point fingers away from themselves until it directly affects them. The US will once again learn the hard way.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Mon May 09, 2005 7:36 pm

David813 wrote: And to go direct to the thread subject; YES. The US is to blame for global warming. In reality we are only a part of the problem but once again arrogance comes with a price! As the self proclaimed "Leaders of the World" we place ourselves in a more responsible seat. Responsibility is not something the current junta understands but being the so-called sole superpower we have a responsibility to be mature in decisions that affect the world. Kyoto is just one example of our failure at looking beyond the profits of our Saudi financed Prez & his Mafia. People will laugh at global warming and point fingers away from themselves until it directly affects them. The US will once again learn the hard way.
if only "global warming" weren't an utter and complete farce. the sole point of kyoto is to destroy the US economy while letting countries like china belch air pollution to the kitty kats come home.

global warming has slightly less than zero actual scientific basis.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon May 09, 2005 7:59 pm

Global warming is a complete farse - I hope you were answering me "A". I cannot write your name out without having to look at it several times - my apologies for the shortening. This planet is going through a warmng trend - pure and simple - and no goverment agency can interfere with that fact. Man had very little to do with the warming trend and any of you who think man has anything to with it needs to talk to the dinasaurs. Oh yea - you can't - they are extinct.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:07 pm

the holes in the 'global warming caused by burning fossil fuels' theory are big enough to drive a nitro-burning funny car through.

SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY

WATCH BIG DADDY DON GARLITS

ROAR THROUGH THE GATES OF HELL

AND SHAKE HANDS WITH THE DEVIL

David813 · Post by **David813** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:08 pm

anastrophe wrote: if only "global warming" weren't an utter and complete farce. the sole point of kyoto is to destroy the US economy while letting countries like china belch air pollution to the kitty kats come home.

global warming has slightly less than zero actual scientific basis.I agree China and India have far greater pollution problems. Rapid industrialization is the culprit. We did the same thing in the early 20th century. Not every international treaty, alliance or bloc is diabolically designed to usurp US power and rule the world. Not everyone thinks like us. That arrogance again!:yh_worshp I am opposed to rad-lib environmental groups and am not a tree hugging hippie. As most rightists assume anyone that agrees with the vast majority of science must be one of the above. There is a global warming A. I know you'll demand a list of links and articles to prove it but even if I were able to do that you would likely disparage the links, the authors, the sources, etc. To not believe record breaking temps, change in weather patterns and the agreement among many that there is global warming is, yet again, that US made arrogance that if it didn't come from Bush's lips it is a liberal lie. What has caused this notable climate change is the reasonable question we should be asking ourselves. But if you're on the Rush Limbaugh Brigade then believe as you wish. We just need to look at causes, not bicker amongst ourselves until we miss more opportunities to resolve this issue.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:12 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: Global warming is a complete farse - I hope you were answering me "A". I cannot write your name out without having to look at it several times - my apologies for the shortening. This planet is going through a warmng trend - pure and simple - and no goverment agency can interfere with that fact. Man had very little to do with the warming trend and any of you who think man has anything to with it needs to talk to the dinasaurs. Oh yea - you can't - they are extinct.That's "FARCE' vvalleyvee. You are correct! There IS global warming! Whether it is natural or worsened by Man IT IS WARMER! Anastrophe disagrees there is ANY warming at all. Someone that would ignore something as basic and available as world weather data just to stay on the rightist side of the fence is impossible to debate with.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:13 pm

anastrophe wrote: the holes in the 'global warming caused by burning fossil fuels' theory are big enough to drive a nitro-burning funny car through.

SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY

WATCH BIG DADDY DON GARLITS

ROAR THROUGH THE GATES OF HELL

AND SHAKE HANDS WITH THE DEVIL

thanks for the agreement "A"

David813 · Post by **David813** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:15 pm

anastrophe wrote: the holes in the 'global warming caused by burning fossil fuels' theory are big enough to drive a nitro-burning funny car through.

SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY

WATCH BIG DADDY DON GARLITS

ROAR THROUGH THE GATES OF HELL

AND SHAKE HANDS WITH THE DEVILRight A. There is no global warming. It's a lie manufactured by Michael Moore, Jesse Jackson, Hillary Clinton & Jane Fonda. It's actually getting colder globally! The conspiracy is to force US automakers to find an alternative fuel! That's it!!

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:18 pm

David813 wrote: That's "FARCE' vvalleyvee. You are correct! There IS global warming! Whether it is natural or worsened by Man IT IS WARMER! Anastrophe disagrees there is ANY warming at all. Someone that would ignore something as basic and available as world weather data just to stay on the rightist side of the fence is impossible to debate with.

Thanks for correcting my spelling - I really appreciate the lesson. As I said our warming trend is 18,000 years old and nothing that man can do will stop it. We may make it seem worse by the "supposed" ozone levels but it will happen none-the-less.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:23 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: Thanks for correcting my spelling - I really appreciate the lesson. As I said our warming trend is 18,000 years old and nothing that man can do will stop it. We may make it seem worse by the "supposed" ozone levels but it will happen none-the-less.I have no problem with your statement. It could be true. But because of the human & financial costs associated with searching for oil and the environmental hazards it creates now what would be wrong with exploring other energy sources? Some real players would lose their thrones is why. It is very possible our input of fossil fuels into the atmosphere has zero effect on global climate. It also may not be true.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:33 pm

David813 wrote: I agree China and India have far greater pollution problems. Rapid industrialization is the culprit. We did the same thing in the early 20th century. Not every international treaty, alliance or bloc is diabolically designed to usurp US power and rule the world.
i agree. however, kyoto is.

Not everyone thinks like us. That arrogance again!:yh_worshp I am opposed to rad-lib environmental groups and am not a tree hugging hippie. As most rightists assume anyone that agrees with the vast majority of science must be one of the above. There is a global warming A. I know you'll demand a list of links and articles to prove it but even if I were able to do that you would likely disparage the links, the authors, the sources, etc. To not believe record breaking temps, change in weather patterns and the agreement among many that there is global warming is, yet again, that US made arrogance that if it didn't come from Bush's lips it is a liberal lie.
i don't give a rats ass what bush says. my argument has nothing to do with bush. 'record breaking temps' is meaningless. humans have only been able to accurately measure temperatures for about a hundred years or so. the global warming theory is based upon a *statistical* deviation to a less than one degree centigrade increase in overall temperature readings. those readings, from all over the globe, ignore the *completely normal* variability of weather. why do you think we have 'weather forecasters'? if these idiot scientists who have found an insignificant statistical deviation of one degree centigrade are able to deduce that this deviation is due to humans burning fossil fuels, well then, why do we need weather forecasters? if they have that perspicacious an understanding of weather, then there would be no need for the daily forecast. they could simply issue a yearly calendar, advising what the temperature will be on any given day, whether there will be precipitation, whether there will be a freeze.

only in recent years have scientists come to realize that weather on the west coast of california is significantly affected by a thing called 'el nino', a long-cycle deviation in weather patterns that actually is fairly predictable, but that utterly buggers up the notion that measuring temperatures year to year will be able to give you a long (as in hundred year) view of what is "normal".

never mind that temperature measuring instruments have only become truly accurate to fractions of a degree centigrade in the last fifty to seventy five years. there is no older data that is reliable. so how can they claim to know anything more than the last fifty years or so of statistical data? a common fallacy i point out is that correlation is not equal to causation. that this tiny statistical deviation has been found during roughly the same interval that we've been burning fossil fuels does not mean that's what's causing it!

What has caused this notable climate change is the reasonable question we should be asking ourselves.
no more notable than weather at any other time. there are heat waves. there are cold waves. there are hurricanes. there are floods. right now, the global warming hysterics point to *any* "change" as evidence of global warming. a mild spring? global warming! a hurricane (they happen every year) - global warming! a cold snap in the *northeast*? global warming! it's really quite pathetic.

But if you're on the Rush Limbaugh Brigade then believe as you wish.
are you suggesting that's me? or just saying it for effect? i don't listen to rush limbaugh. i don't listen to talk radio. i don't drink budweiser. i don't have a red neck. i've voted for democrats, independents, republicans, and libertarians. feel free to find a label to stick to me, david. if that makes it easier to demonize me, rather than confront my ideas, feel free.

We just need to look at causes, not bicker amongst ourselves until we miss more opportunities to resolve this issue.
there are no 'causes'. there is no issue to resolve. it's called "weather".

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:36 pm

About the only way Arctic drilling will affect the global climate will be because it will disrupt the natural wildlife in an already fragile ecosystem. The Alaskan pipeline had to go back and make sure the natural migration of the Arctic wildlife could cross their pipeline. The pipeline restricted them at first. This new one will be in an even more sesitive ecosystem - I hope they have people who care.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:38 pm

anastrophe wrote: i agree. however, kyoto is.

i don't give a rats ass what bush says. my argument has nothing to do with bush. 'record breaking temps' is meaningless. humans have only been able to accurately measure temperatures for about a hundred years or so. the global warming theory is based upon a *statistical* deviation to a less than one degree centigrade increase in overall temperature readings. those readings, from all over the globe, ignore the *completely normal* variability of weather. why do you think we have 'weather forecasters'? if these idiot scientists who have found an insignificant statistical deviation of one degree centigrade are able to deduce that this deviation is due to humans burning fossil fuels, well then, why do we need weather forecasters? if they have that perspicacious an understanding of weather, then there would be no need for the daily forecast. they could simply issue a yearly calendar, advising what the temperature will be on any given day, whether there will be precipitation, whether there will be a freeze.

only in recent years have scientists come to realize that weather on the west coast of california is significantly affected by a thing called 'el nino', a long-cycle deviation in weather patterns that actually is fairly predictable, but that utterly buggers up the notion that measuring temperatures year to year will be able to give you a long (as in hundred year) view of what is "normal".

never mind that temperature measuring instruments have only become truly accurate to fractions of a degree centigrade in the last fifty to seventy five years. there is no older data that is reliable. so how can they claim to know anything more than the last fifty years or so of statistical data? a common fallacy i point out is that correlation is not equal to causation. that this tiny statistical deviation has been found during roughly the same interval that we've been burning fossil fuels does not mean that's what's causing it!

no more notable than weather at any other time. there are heat waves. there are cold waves. there are hurricanes. there are floods. right now, the global warming hysterics point to *any* "change" as evidence of global warming. a mild spring? global warming! a hurricane (they happen every year) - global warming! a cold snap in the *northeast*? global warming! it's really quite pathetic.

are you suggesting that's me? or just saying it for effect? i don't listen to rush limbaugh. i don't listen to talk radio. i don't drink budweiser. i don't have a red neck. i've voted for democrats, independents, republicans, and libertarians. feel free to find a label to stick to me, david. if that makes it easier to demonize me, rather than confront my ideas, feel free.

there are no 'causes'. there is no issue to resolve. it's called "weather".

I'd just like to quote your last statement - "it's called weather" Thanks "A"

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:44 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: I have a degree in environmental science - which does NOT make me an expert on the subject - just someone who has had the opportunity to study environmental issues in a little more depth than most people. I also have my own opinions about how the general public views environmental issues - another thread - another time. ANYWAY, from my perspective and study, the Earth has gone through many of these warming and cooling trends. It just so happens the last cooling trend (what we know as the Ice Age) ended 18,000 years ago - a blink in Earth time (a long time in human time) and now the Earth is warming again - no big deal and nobody to blame. As for clubbing seals and hunting polar bears, it is my opinion that no one should be allowed to do that but the indigenous people upon whose survival these practices depend.

I agreed with you "A". Did you read my earlier post?

David813 · Post by **David813** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:48 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: I agreed with you "A". Did you read my earlier post?For what it's worth I only agree with your last sentence.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:10 pm

I think that is the only one that counts David. Now if we could keep everyone who is NOT an aboriginal (SP) out of the picture - it would work out fine.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:28 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: I think that is the only one that counts David. Now if we could keep everyone who is NOT an aboriginal (SP) out of the picture - it would work out fine.In areas where native people's live I agree the rest of us keep out. All the natives in my state were exterminated. Not one reservation in Missouri. There's one in Kansas. A true holocaust.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:33 pm

I'm sorry your native people were wiped out in Missouri - we are talking about raping the the Artctic Tundra - some of the last know true wildlife refugee. Could you survive in that environment?

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:34 pm

We CANNOT correct the past - we can only make the future better.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Mon May 09, 2005 10:27 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: I agreed with you "A". Did you read my earlier post?
yup. as the saying goes, We park our cars in the same garage.

:yh_silly

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue May 10, 2005 1:39 am

Let me see now, if we listen to environmentalists we have pleasant surroundings, lots of wildlife new forms of transport that don't rely on fossil fuels and lead to new industries springing up and the oil companies make less profit unless thay realise their goal is to provide energy for industry and start spending on alternative sources in which case they will benefit greatly in the long run.

If we don't listen then we have polluted rivers full of chemicals containing oestrogen changing the make up of society in startling way, our agriculture is based on a few genetically modifeied plants supplied by seed companis that can charge what they like and incredibly vulnerable should anything actually be wrong with gm technology which we won't know about till after it happens. Oil is a finite resource, it will run out but not in our lifetime or maybe even our grandchildren's lifetime but it will run out why wait till it runs out before you make plans for an alternative. Basically we are up **** creek withoput a paddle.

Assuming chemical companies and other industry will always behave responsibly is leaving our planet as a hostage to fortune.

Those who disparage environmemtalists as tree huggers and closet commies do so because they want to stop people thinking about it and leave them alone to do what they want.

True global warming may be a farse as anastrophe says. Poo Poo all you like about global warming, it is only a theory but if it is proven true we are stuffed. The nay sayers are like the guys on the titanic going "naw it won't happen we're unsinkable" let's do lunch. Even if it does we get first go at the lifeboats the riff raff are locked down below. Personally I want to make sure the lifeboats work.

(actually you can just imagine Noah's fellow villagers going, come on Noah we need the wood for cooking it's not going to rain)

Actually the EEC is just as bad as americans at this kind of thing. BP and Shell are not american. One difference is they can't completely ignore the green lobby, as BP found out being boycotted very soon made them listen.

posted by anastrophe

if only "global warming" weren't an utter and complete farce. the sole point of kyoto is to destroy the US economy while letting countries like china belch air pollution to the kitty kats come home.

global warming has slightly less than zero actual scientific basis

Oil prices are rising because demand is rising and will continue to rise as Russia and China get going, the us imports oil, I read somewhere youi have something like 3% of the total oil reserves, even with alaska this rises to 5% (correct me if I'm wrong) your economy is dependant on oil, it's not just about burning it in SUV's.

You're doing a pretty good job of wrecking your economy yourselves because you seem convinced the rest of the world owes you a living. A lot of US companies don't compete any more they try and stifle competition you stop imports to protect your industry, like you did with european steel, which may have helped steel workers but hurt other industries forced to buy more expensive US steel. They cpmplain about EEC labelling regulations on GM crops because they realise that many europeans will not buy GM foods. You bleat about cheap labour overseas taking jobs. Why not blame the US companies that are doing that are exporting the jobs? They sell their goods in the US every time you buy one of their products you just gave tacit approval.

instead of making better cars, the UK tried to control imports, now we have no car industry left except the foreign owned companies making them here and niche manufacturers. Do people feel sympathy for Rover workers, yes they do, did they buy their cars, no because they were crap and no one owes them a living. Does it bother us that our car industry is foreign owned, no we are a trading nation and always have been. British companies do well in other countries and invest in them also that is the nature of business.

You need government and laws to control big business and keep it in its place not to try and run it or impose too much red tape unless it is a level playing field of red tape throughout-if you get my drift. We learned the hard way, you can't prop up ailing businesses just because they are having trouble competing.

Stop assuming everybody wants to destroy american industry, if you keep thinking like that you will have no industry worth destroying. Keep working the way you have been then we will be able to sell you, at a good price for bulk, all the green technology everybody else has been working on. If China can get more fuel efficient engines what do you think they will buy? EU diesel technology for small cars is already way ahead of the US. Ironically it was because of lobbying by the environmentalists, germany and france reduced the tariffs on diesel to make it considerably cheaper than petrol, the result? Most of the cars on the road in france and germany are diesel, the money pouring in to research led to massive improvements, now they are flogging them to the chinese. In the UK we are behind because the petrol companies don't want to see their profits drop and the chancellor needs the tax revenue. Sore point diesel cars are sold at a premium here which is annpying cos I want another one.

Keep kidding yourself that kyoto is about destroying US industry, stay uncompetitive and stuck in the past, blame foreign competition and anti americanism for your own failures you may think the world depends on america but it doesn't.