I'm sure everyone recalls all of this. I've made up nothing, just collated a few quotes. I'm posting it mainly in response to today's article at http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/n ... man04.html which shows that the army investigators are still covering the backs of the commanders.
I'll start at the daily briefing of General John Abizaid, commander, Central Command, on Friday, April 30, 2004 9:05am:
"[...] I'd also like to say that while I was in Afghanistan yesterday I had the opportunity to talk to 1st Lieutenant Dave Hutman (sp) of the 1st Ranger Battalion, of the Ranger battalion - maybe I've got the wrong Ranger battalion that he was with. He was the platoon leader of Pat Tillman.
"I asked him yesterday how operations were going. I asked him about Pat Tillman. He said, "Pat Tillman was a great Ranger and a great soldier, and what more can I say about him?" And I'd say that about every one of those young men and women that are fighting, not only in Afghanistan but in Iraq.
"I also probably bear some understanding that - that lieutenant I was talking to happened to be a former first captain of corps of cadets at West Point, and when he was talking to me, he was still nursing a large number of wounds that he sustained in that firefight where Pat Tillman lost his life.
"These soldiers are fighting hard. They're fighting well. They're fighting courageously. And the only thing that the lieutenant could say to me is that he needed to get back in the field to his troops.
"Let's turn to Iraq. Next slide."
General Abizaid, where exactly did the attempted cover-up over Pat Tillman's friendly-fire death begin? This is as close to the start as I can get. I'm sure you can point to something earlier. You'd spoken to the platoon leader of Pat Tillman? The soldier whom subsequent reports describe as the man who started the friendly fire exchange? What shines out of your press briefing is that you knew exactly what had gone down, that you were careful not to tell any lies you could be called for later while avoiding the core truth.
What we have, after this, is the polished version of the lie:
"Tillman, a team leader, was in the platoon’s lead section when the trail section began receiving mortar and small arms fire. Because of the area’s cavernous terrain, the trail element was unable to maneuver out of the kill zone and it was difficult for the embattled trail section to target the enemy positions.
"Although Tillman's element was already safely out of the area of the attack, he ordered his team to dismount and then maneuvered the Rangers up a hill near the enemy's location. As they crested the hill, Tillman directed his team into firing positions and personally provided suppressive fire with an M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon machine gun.
"Through the firing, Tillman’s voice was heard issuing commands to take the fight to the enemy forces emplaced on the dominating high ground.
"Only after Tillman’s team had engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear that the hostile fires directed at the Ranger trail section were diminished.
"Leading his Rangers without regard for his own safety, Tillman was shot and killed while focusing his efforts on the elimination of the enemy forces and the protection of his team members."
Who wrote that, out of interest? Another Ranger? Did he forget the fifth stanza of the Ranger Creed - "under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country."?
By the end of May, we have this instead: "Corporal Tillman died after his unit of US Army Rangers became bedevilled by a series of mishaps. Operating about 100 miles south of Kabul near the Pakistani border, the unit split into two when one of its vehicles broke down. The group in the rear, which included Corporal Tillman, was then ambushed, sparking a 20-minute gunfight. On hearing the shots, the unit’s lead group returned to the scene, where, in poor visibility, the platoon commander mistakenly identified a soldier with the Afghan Milita Force, fighting alongside Corporal Tillman, as an enemy. Other US troops followed their commander’s lead, turning their guns on the Afghan and Corporal Tillman."
This is the same Platoon Commander you quoted at the press briefing, General Abizaid? He mentioned none of this to you? Of course he did.
Here's my final quote which I accept is, in the absence of unvarnished honesty on the part of the authorities involved, an unverified assertion, unlike the remainder of the tale:
The Afghan official gave the AP a differing account, based on his conversation with an Afghan fighter from the group that was separated from Tillman's. The Afghan soldier said the two groups drifted apart during the operation in the remote Spera district of Khost province, close to the Pakistani border.
"Suddenly the sound of a mine explosion was heard somewhere between the two groups and the Americans in one group started firing," the official said.
"Nobody knew what it was - a mine, a remote-controlled bomb - or what was going on, or if enemy forces were firing. The situation was very confusing," the official said.
"As the result of this firing, that American was killed and three Afghan soldiers were injured. It was a misunderstanding and afterwards they realized that it was a mine that had exploded and there were no enemy forces."
So, here's my impressions, a year on. All this cynical lying manipulation of the soul of America leaves a foul taste in the mouth. It's as though those responsible for the award agree with Mason Weems. You might not have heard of Mr Weems, but he wrote dismissively about George Washington's troops: "After the first shock, the loss of these poor souls was not much lamented. Tall young fellows, who could easily get their half dollar a day at the healthful and glorious labours of the plough, to go and enlist and rust among the lice and itch of a camp, for four dollars a month, were certainly not worth their country's crying about."
I suggest we rectify this. Given that the Silver Star is awarded to a person who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Army, is cited for gallantry in action against an enemy of the United States while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force, it seems impossible to award it to anyone involved on this occasion. As recompense for the subsequent national ballyhoo, it would be fitting to upgrade the award to a Distinguished Service Cross. This is awarded to a person who, while serving in any capacity with the Army, distinguishes himself or herself by extraordinary heroism, and given the circumstances of his induction from his well-paid job it describes Pat Tillman quite well. It does not, however, require the presence on the battlefield of an opposing foreign force.
A Google search for (tillman mine explosion "no enemy" "friendly fire") gives, today, 1210 hits.
To fictionalize this sorry event, to say that "through the firing, Tillman’s voice was heard issuing commands to take the fight to the enemy forces emplaced on the dominating high ground" is to demean the integrity of the United States Marine Corps. Is it too much to hope that the liar who dreamed up the Hollywood scenario might feel shame for his action and explain to the general public the circumstances under which he did it?
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
Mmmmm....I heard that GWBush only attacked Iraq because he wasn`t sure how to spell Afghanistan. Seriously, though, 50 innocent people got murdered by a suicide bomber there this morning; is everybody else in the world just supposed to ignore this sort of thing?
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
john8pies wrote: Seriously, though, 50 innocent people got murdered by a suicide bomber there this morning; is everybody else in the world just supposed to ignore this sort of thing?I don't recall there being many suicide bombers in either Iraq or Afghanistan, before those countries were Liberated. Would you have advised the Dutch or the Poles or the Norwegians not to resist, when they had foreign troops in their countries? You call them "50 innocent people", the newspapers describe them as "applying for Iraqi police jobs at the recruitment centre" - perhaps you could look up "Quisling" for a comparison.
I'm not sure what relevance this has to military cover-ups.
I'm not sure what relevance this has to military cover-ups.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
the minute the US pulls out of iraq, if a single suicide bomber takes out a single person, the whiners will start their chant of how we've 'abandoned' iraq when they need us most. that we're cowards for leaving when the going got tough.
there's no winning with the whiner contingent. nothing the US does will ever be right in their view. nothing.
oh, the tillman stuff? i think it's heinous to suggest that because an *initial* investigation suggested fratricide that it was therefore a 'coverup' that it wasn't immediately reported. bollocks! the whole point of an investigation is to confirm the truth. initial reports are just that - initial, and as such, not confirmed by a *full and complete* investigation. oh sure, let's tell the family right away that their son was killed by his brothers in arms. so what if later it might turn out to be wrong?!
there's no winning with the whiner contingent. nothing the US does will ever be right in their view. nothing.
oh, the tillman stuff? i think it's heinous to suggest that because an *initial* investigation suggested fratricide that it was therefore a 'coverup' that it wasn't immediately reported. bollocks! the whole point of an investigation is to confirm the truth. initial reports are just that - initial, and as such, not confirmed by a *full and complete* investigation. oh sure, let's tell the family right away that their son was killed by his brothers in arms. so what if later it might turn out to be wrong?!
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: oh, the tillman stuff? i think it's heinous to suggest that because an *initial* investigation suggested fratricide that it was therefore a 'coverup' that it wasn't immediately reported. bollocks! the whole point of an investigation is to confirm the truth. initial reports are just that - initial, and as such, not confirmed by a *full and complete* investigation. oh sure, let's tell the family right away that their son was killed by his brothers in arms. so what if later it might turn out to be wrong?!Indeed it would be heinous, anastrophe, just as you say, to suggest that because an *initial* investigation suggested fratricide that it was therefore a 'coverup' that it wasn't immediately reported. If that had happened, I would never have raised the issue at all.
I did put enough actual facts there to demonstrate that this wasn't what happened, though.
You can start with this quote from the most recent army investigation, taken from the Seattle Times article I linked to: "Soldiers on the scene said they were immediately sure Tillman was killed by a barrage of American bullets as he took shelter behind a boulder". It's not the guys making the *initial* report that lied, it was a deliberate fabrication or, if you will, cover-up, from within the larger portion of your well-insulated army - the part that doesn't fight the enemy on the ground. "The documents also show that officers made erroneous initial reports that Tillman was killed by enemy fire, destroyed critical evidence and initially concealed the truth from Tillman's brother, also an Army Ranger." Officers, you'll note. Not anyone who witnessed the affair, unless you're trying to implicate the Platoon Commander which I most certainly am not doing.
Then you can compare the date of "Top commanders within the U.S. Central Command, including Abizaid, were notified by April 29", from the latest investigation, with the date of the quoted daily briefing of General Abizaid - April 30 - where he gave out the implied lie of 'died fighting the enemy' having said he'd discussed it with the Platoon Commander in person. That's an absolute minimum of one day after he knew the truth, the latest investigation confirms. Read that paragraph again - "top Army officials, including the theater commander, Gen. John Abizaid, were told Tillman's death was fratricide". And then, afterwards, even later, you get that filthy citation written out of sheer embarrassment at events and the futile hope that the world will never hear that nobody took any enemy fire at all that night.
When you have everyone who was present on the ground saying immediately and fully what occurred, it is folly to concoct that lunatic Hollywood script... "Although Tillman's element was already safely out of the area of the attack, he ordered his team to dismount and then maneuvered the Rangers up a hill near the enemy's location" didn't come from anywhere except invention. It was made up, within the army, from someone's fertile imagination.
How do you have the temerity to label me 'the whiner contingent', instead of calling for an apology from the small group of people who deliberately created the lie? What America has here is a breakdown of honor. It still needs mending. Either the propaganda unit should stand up like men and apologise jointly to the nation for misunderstanding their mission, or better yet, the person who originated the executive order to them should. Who knows, if the fuss dies down before then, the bloodsucking profiteers will probably make the Film of the Lie, the way they did with Jessica Lynch.
I did put enough actual facts there to demonstrate that this wasn't what happened, though.
You can start with this quote from the most recent army investigation, taken from the Seattle Times article I linked to: "Soldiers on the scene said they were immediately sure Tillman was killed by a barrage of American bullets as he took shelter behind a boulder". It's not the guys making the *initial* report that lied, it was a deliberate fabrication or, if you will, cover-up, from within the larger portion of your well-insulated army - the part that doesn't fight the enemy on the ground. "The documents also show that officers made erroneous initial reports that Tillman was killed by enemy fire, destroyed critical evidence and initially concealed the truth from Tillman's brother, also an Army Ranger." Officers, you'll note. Not anyone who witnessed the affair, unless you're trying to implicate the Platoon Commander which I most certainly am not doing.
Then you can compare the date of "Top commanders within the U.S. Central Command, including Abizaid, were notified by April 29", from the latest investigation, with the date of the quoted daily briefing of General Abizaid - April 30 - where he gave out the implied lie of 'died fighting the enemy' having said he'd discussed it with the Platoon Commander in person. That's an absolute minimum of one day after he knew the truth, the latest investigation confirms. Read that paragraph again - "top Army officials, including the theater commander, Gen. John Abizaid, were told Tillman's death was fratricide". And then, afterwards, even later, you get that filthy citation written out of sheer embarrassment at events and the futile hope that the world will never hear that nobody took any enemy fire at all that night.
When you have everyone who was present on the ground saying immediately and fully what occurred, it is folly to concoct that lunatic Hollywood script... "Although Tillman's element was already safely out of the area of the attack, he ordered his team to dismount and then maneuvered the Rangers up a hill near the enemy's location" didn't come from anywhere except invention. It was made up, within the army, from someone's fertile imagination.
How do you have the temerity to label me 'the whiner contingent', instead of calling for an apology from the small group of people who deliberately created the lie? What America has here is a breakdown of honor. It still needs mending. Either the propaganda unit should stand up like men and apologise jointly to the nation for misunderstanding their mission, or better yet, the person who originated the executive order to them should. Who knows, if the fuss dies down before then, the bloodsucking profiteers will probably make the Film of the Lie, the way they did with Jessica Lynch.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
Scrat wrote: Anastrophe.
We have 2 realistic options that will produce a result, both will be costly in one way or another.
Pack up and leave, let the Iraqis sort it out. The cost will be tremendous in our prestige and world standing but really I don't see what we have to lose at this point.
The next is to triple the troop strength to a million men and turn the country into the largest concentration camp in history. No cars, no communication of any kind (modern communications put the insurgents almost on par with us) no contact with the outside world. Seal the cuntry hermetically.
Wish I had timew to elaborate further but I do not.
Oh please, please, please elaborate. Such a brilliant analysis and erudite solution demands more detail. You bring such fresh perspective, and unique ideas to this complex problem.
Perhaps you could author a white paper for distribution to our legislators, president Bush, hell, even the UN.
You simply must educate, inspire, and lead us with your wisdom.
:yh_pray :yh_worshp :yh_clap
We have 2 realistic options that will produce a result, both will be costly in one way or another.
Pack up and leave, let the Iraqis sort it out. The cost will be tremendous in our prestige and world standing but really I don't see what we have to lose at this point.
The next is to triple the troop strength to a million men and turn the country into the largest concentration camp in history. No cars, no communication of any kind (modern communications put the insurgents almost on par with us) no contact with the outside world. Seal the cuntry hermetically.
Wish I had timew to elaborate further but I do not.
Oh please, please, please elaborate. Such a brilliant analysis and erudite solution demands more detail. You bring such fresh perspective, and unique ideas to this complex problem.
Perhaps you could author a white paper for distribution to our legislators, president Bush, hell, even the UN.
You simply must educate, inspire, and lead us with your wisdom.
:yh_pray :yh_worshp :yh_clap
Old age and treachery, is an acceptable response to overwelming youth and skill 
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
Der Wulf wrote: Oh please, please, please elaborate.Wulf, you may feel that sarcasm is appropriate in discussing something this tragic, but I don't think many of us do. This is about people who died, not about a screwball comedy on late-night TV.
Flopstock asked very pertinent question: what could we do next, realistically? Scrat answered it from a broad perspective and got laughed at. OK, here's a more focused reply instead.
Let me try to put what happened in a small measure of context, as that might be a part of the reason that this crass cover-up was allowed by the Theater Staff Officers in general, and General Abizaid in particular. I think they, and he, were panicked.
"April 29, the US suffered the most devastating blow of the war. It came not from the enemy but from its own soldiers. CBS News broadcast the first photos from Abu Ghraib prison, showing US Army soldiers horribly abusing Iraqi prisoners. The following day, April 30, the US Army Special Operations Command announced that Patrick D Tillman 'has been posthumously awarded the Silver Star'. The Silver Star is one of the military's highest awards, the third-highest award for gallantry on the battlefield. It was given for Tillman's "selfless actions after his Ranger element was ambushed by anti-coalition insurgents during a ground assault through southeastern Afghanistan". And it was issued with unusual haste, barely a week after Tillman's death."
Now, if that's not context, I don't know what would be.
Anyway, what could we do next, realistically. I stand by my first suggestion, that Pat Tillman's inappropriate award of the Silver Star be uprated to a Distinguished Service Cross. The way to achieve this is:
Firstly to read Army Regulation 600-8-22, "Military Awards", from http://www.usapa.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_8_22.pdf paying particular attention to the special instructions in Chapter 3;
Then to fill in as fully as possible DA Form 638, Recommendation For Award, from http://www.per.hqusareur.army.mil/servi ... ms/638.dot
and send it for processing to:
General John Abizaid
U.S. Central Command
7115 South Boundary Boulevard
MacDill, AFB, FL 33621-5101
asking for his endorsement, and that he process the application on behalf of his late colleague through to completion.
On the question of responsibility, it's difficult to see how General Abizaid could have interviewed the Platoon Commander, who was an eye-witness fully aware of what he had seen and done, on the 29th, or for him to know that there were a dozen other eye-witness testimonies already sworn in his theater of war by that date, and not give any public warning of problems ahead at his press conference on the morning of the 30th, or at the very least suppress the lying citation which was actually published later that same day. I think the evidence suggests that he went along with the lie, and that he should consequently consider his position with a view to immediate resignation both from the Army and from public life. Maybe we could put this to him in the same letter, along with the form?
"These soldiers are fighting hard. They're fighting well. They're fighting courageously. They're fighting each other." That's all it needed, on the day.
Flopstock asked very pertinent question: what could we do next, realistically? Scrat answered it from a broad perspective and got laughed at. OK, here's a more focused reply instead.
Let me try to put what happened in a small measure of context, as that might be a part of the reason that this crass cover-up was allowed by the Theater Staff Officers in general, and General Abizaid in particular. I think they, and he, were panicked.
"April 29, the US suffered the most devastating blow of the war. It came not from the enemy but from its own soldiers. CBS News broadcast the first photos from Abu Ghraib prison, showing US Army soldiers horribly abusing Iraqi prisoners. The following day, April 30, the US Army Special Operations Command announced that Patrick D Tillman 'has been posthumously awarded the Silver Star'. The Silver Star is one of the military's highest awards, the third-highest award for gallantry on the battlefield. It was given for Tillman's "selfless actions after his Ranger element was ambushed by anti-coalition insurgents during a ground assault through southeastern Afghanistan". And it was issued with unusual haste, barely a week after Tillman's death."
Now, if that's not context, I don't know what would be.
Anyway, what could we do next, realistically. I stand by my first suggestion, that Pat Tillman's inappropriate award of the Silver Star be uprated to a Distinguished Service Cross. The way to achieve this is:
Firstly to read Army Regulation 600-8-22, "Military Awards", from http://www.usapa.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_8_22.pdf paying particular attention to the special instructions in Chapter 3;
Then to fill in as fully as possible DA Form 638, Recommendation For Award, from http://www.per.hqusareur.army.mil/servi ... ms/638.dot
and send it for processing to:
General John Abizaid
U.S. Central Command
7115 South Boundary Boulevard
MacDill, AFB, FL 33621-5101
asking for his endorsement, and that he process the application on behalf of his late colleague through to completion.
On the question of responsibility, it's difficult to see how General Abizaid could have interviewed the Platoon Commander, who was an eye-witness fully aware of what he had seen and done, on the 29th, or for him to know that there were a dozen other eye-witness testimonies already sworn in his theater of war by that date, and not give any public warning of problems ahead at his press conference on the morning of the 30th, or at the very least suppress the lying citation which was actually published later that same day. I think the evidence suggests that he went along with the lie, and that he should consequently consider his position with a view to immediate resignation both from the Army and from public life. Maybe we could put this to him in the same letter, along with the form?
"These soldiers are fighting hard. They're fighting well. They're fighting courageously. They're fighting each other." That's all it needed, on the day.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
spot wrote: Indeed it would be heinous, anastrophe, just as you say, to suggest that because an *initial* investigation suggested fratricide that it was therefore a 'coverup' that it wasn't immediately reported. If that had happened, I would never have raised the issue at all.
I did put enough actual facts there to demonstrate that this wasn't what happened, though.
You can start with this quote from the most recent army investigation, taken from the Seattle Times article I linked to: "Soldiers on the scene said they were immediately sure Tillman was killed by a barrage of American bullets as he took shelter behind a boulder". It's not the guys making the *initial* report that lied, it was a deliberate fabrication or, if you will, cover-up, from within the larger portion of your well-insulated army - the part that doesn't fight the enemy on the ground. "The documents also show that officers made erroneous initial reports that Tillman was killed by enemy fire, destroyed critical evidence and initially concealed the truth from Tillman's brother, also an Army Ranger." Officers, you'll note. Not anyone who witnessed the affair, unless you're trying to implicate the Platoon Commander which I most certainly am not doing.
1. you are basing your opinion, apparently, exclusively on the seattle times article, which is a reprint of an article from the washington post. this is not exactly 'going to the source'.
2. let me repeat your quote with more context from the article:
Soldiers on the scene said they were immediately sure Tillman was killed by a barrage of American bullets as he took shelter behind a boulder during a twilight firefight along a narrow canyon road near the Pakistani border, according to nearly 2,000 pages of interview transcripts and investigative reports obtained by The Washington Post.
now then. the article is saying that the *report* - in hindsight of unknown depth - quotes soldiers as having said they were 'immediately sure' tillman was killed by friendly fire. when did they make these statements? the very day of the incident? or six months later during the investigation? this is the crux of the matter. the soldiers may well have been sure of that - but that is not necessarily what they reported back days after the incident. you are taking that statement quoted above as being definitive to the actual time of the incident, and that is not necessarily the case.
it would ultimately be best if we had access to these interview transcripts.
When you have everyone who was present on the ground saying immediately and fully what occurred,
that is an assumption you are making based upon a paragraph in the article. that is not, as a matter of factual information, necessarily the case, per above.
How do you have the temerity to label me 'the whiner contingent', instead of calling for an apology from the small group of people who deliberately created the lie?
i'll thank you to reread my post, in context within this topic, and taking special note of how the post is parsed. i did no such thing as label you 'the whiner contingent'.
I did put enough actual facts there to demonstrate that this wasn't what happened, though.
You can start with this quote from the most recent army investigation, taken from the Seattle Times article I linked to: "Soldiers on the scene said they were immediately sure Tillman was killed by a barrage of American bullets as he took shelter behind a boulder". It's not the guys making the *initial* report that lied, it was a deliberate fabrication or, if you will, cover-up, from within the larger portion of your well-insulated army - the part that doesn't fight the enemy on the ground. "The documents also show that officers made erroneous initial reports that Tillman was killed by enemy fire, destroyed critical evidence and initially concealed the truth from Tillman's brother, also an Army Ranger." Officers, you'll note. Not anyone who witnessed the affair, unless you're trying to implicate the Platoon Commander which I most certainly am not doing.
1. you are basing your opinion, apparently, exclusively on the seattle times article, which is a reprint of an article from the washington post. this is not exactly 'going to the source'.
2. let me repeat your quote with more context from the article:
Soldiers on the scene said they were immediately sure Tillman was killed by a barrage of American bullets as he took shelter behind a boulder during a twilight firefight along a narrow canyon road near the Pakistani border, according to nearly 2,000 pages of interview transcripts and investigative reports obtained by The Washington Post.
now then. the article is saying that the *report* - in hindsight of unknown depth - quotes soldiers as having said they were 'immediately sure' tillman was killed by friendly fire. when did they make these statements? the very day of the incident? or six months later during the investigation? this is the crux of the matter. the soldiers may well have been sure of that - but that is not necessarily what they reported back days after the incident. you are taking that statement quoted above as being definitive to the actual time of the incident, and that is not necessarily the case.
it would ultimately be best if we had access to these interview transcripts.
When you have everyone who was present on the ground saying immediately and fully what occurred,
that is an assumption you are making based upon a paragraph in the article. that is not, as a matter of factual information, necessarily the case, per above.
How do you have the temerity to label me 'the whiner contingent', instead of calling for an apology from the small group of people who deliberately created the lie?
i'll thank you to reread my post, in context within this topic, and taking special note of how the post is parsed. i did no such thing as label you 'the whiner contingent'.
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Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: 1. you are basing your opinion, apparently, exclusively on the seattle times article, which is a reprint of an article from the washington post. this is not exactly 'going to the source'.And these, you suggest, are not journals of record? Do please suggest a source I should go to instead.
anastrophe wrote: 2. let me repeat your quote with more context from the article:I'm not sure, anastrophe, why you're saying this, when you then leave out the immediately preceding two paragraphs that refute your point completely. These say:
WASHINGTON  The first Army investigator who looked into the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman in Afghanistan last year found within days that he was killed by his fellow Rangers in an act of "gross negligence," but Army officials decided not to inform Tillman's family or the public until weeks after a nationally televised memorial service.
A new Army report shows that top Army officials, including the theater commander, Gen. John Abizaid, were told Tillman's death was fratricide days before the service.
Why do you bother trying out "six months later during the investigation" when the section you omitted has the answer - "within days".
What you fail to query is where the lie that ended up in the citation for the Silver Star originated. It wasn't a mistake, it was an invention. It wasn't an invention of the men on the ground, it was the invention of propagandists. By all means wait for a full investigation before you tell friends, family or press, but surely it's reasonable to say nothing rather than pump out Hollywood filth in place of the truth, whether that truth is known or unknown at the time.
Your words were: "bollocks! the whole point of an investigation is to confirm the truth. initial reports are just that - initial, and as such, not confirmed by a *full and complete* investigation. oh sure, let's tell the family right away that their son was killed by his brothers in arms. so what if later it might turn out to be wrong?!"
Are you seriously saying sure, go ahead with the citation and the two hour national telecast funeral even though it was an army-invented pastiche, in the hope that nobody will ever find out the truth later? Are you saying sure, the army had to invent something, and it might as well have been Hollywood dreck? I don't buy that. If they had holes in their knowledge - and I say "if" not believing that they had any - then that's what they should say, but they can't fill the holes with gleaming Terminator fiction. Better yet, they could have come out with what the Platoon Commander must have told General Abizaid the day before the press conference of 30th April in which the General lied by omission. Or are you suggesting that the Platoon Commander might have lied by omission to his Theater Commander, too?
anastrophe wrote: 2. let me repeat your quote with more context from the article:I'm not sure, anastrophe, why you're saying this, when you then leave out the immediately preceding two paragraphs that refute your point completely. These say:
WASHINGTON  The first Army investigator who looked into the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman in Afghanistan last year found within days that he was killed by his fellow Rangers in an act of "gross negligence," but Army officials decided not to inform Tillman's family or the public until weeks after a nationally televised memorial service.
A new Army report shows that top Army officials, including the theater commander, Gen. John Abizaid, were told Tillman's death was fratricide days before the service.
Why do you bother trying out "six months later during the investigation" when the section you omitted has the answer - "within days".
What you fail to query is where the lie that ended up in the citation for the Silver Star originated. It wasn't a mistake, it was an invention. It wasn't an invention of the men on the ground, it was the invention of propagandists. By all means wait for a full investigation before you tell friends, family or press, but surely it's reasonable to say nothing rather than pump out Hollywood filth in place of the truth, whether that truth is known or unknown at the time.
Your words were: "bollocks! the whole point of an investigation is to confirm the truth. initial reports are just that - initial, and as such, not confirmed by a *full and complete* investigation. oh sure, let's tell the family right away that their son was killed by his brothers in arms. so what if later it might turn out to be wrong?!"
Are you seriously saying sure, go ahead with the citation and the two hour national telecast funeral even though it was an army-invented pastiche, in the hope that nobody will ever find out the truth later? Are you saying sure, the army had to invent something, and it might as well have been Hollywood dreck? I don't buy that. If they had holes in their knowledge - and I say "if" not believing that they had any - then that's what they should say, but they can't fill the holes with gleaming Terminator fiction. Better yet, they could have come out with what the Platoon Commander must have told General Abizaid the day before the press conference of 30th April in which the General lied by omission. Or are you suggesting that the Platoon Commander might have lied by omission to his Theater Commander, too?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
spot wrote: And these, you suggest, are not journals of record? Do please suggest a source I should go to instead.
the actual transcripts, as i said.
I'm not sure, anastrophe, why you're saying this, when you then leave out the immediately preceding two paragraphs that refute your point completely. These say:
WASHINGTON  The first Army investigator who looked into the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman in Afghanistan last year found within days that he was killed by his fellow Rangers in an act of "gross negligence," but Army officials decided not to inform Tillman's family or the public until weeks after a nationally televised memorial service.
A new Army report shows that top Army officials, including the theater commander, Gen. John Abizaid, were told Tillman's death was fratricide days before the service.
Why do you bother trying out "six months later during the investigation" when the section you omitted has the answer - "within days".
What you fail to query is where the lie that ended up in the citation for the Silver Star originated. It wasn't a mistake, it was an invention. It wasn't an invention of the men on the ground, it was the invention of propagandists. By all means wait for a full investigation before you tell friends, family or press, but surely it's reasonable to say nothing rather than pump out Hollywood filth in place of the truth, whether that truth is known or unknown at the time.i agree. but again, you're basing your opinion on whatever spin the article is putting on it. again, the report - according to the article - claims that they found XYZ. i'd like to see the actual record and transcripts, thanks. the washington post has a distinctly anti-military stance, so who knows in what way they may be distorting things? as i pointed out, they spun the words well enough to have you believe that XYZ was known "immediately" - according to interviews conducted well after the fact.
Your words were: "bollocks! the whole point of an investigation is to confirm the truth. initial reports are just that - initial, and as such, not confirmed by a *full and complete* investigation. oh sure, let's tell the family right away that their son was killed by his brothers in arms. so what if later it might turn out to be wrong?!"
Are you seriously saying sure, go ahead with the citation and the two hour national telecast funeral even though it was an army-invented pastiche, in the hope that nobody will ever find out the truth later? Are you saying sure, the army had to invent something, and it might as well have been Hollywood dreck?
no, i'm not saying that. thanks for asking, better than just putting the words in my mouth then attacking me for them!
I don't buy that. If they had holes in their knowledge - and I say "if" not believing that they had any - then that's what they should say, but they can't fill the holes with gleaming Terminator fiction. Better yet, they could have come out with what the Platoon Commander must have told General Abizaid the day before the press conference of 30th April in which the General lied by omission. Or are you suggesting that the Platoon Commander might have lied by omission to his Theater Commander, too?no, but again, thanks for asking.
the actual transcripts, as i said.
I'm not sure, anastrophe, why you're saying this, when you then leave out the immediately preceding two paragraphs that refute your point completely. These say:
WASHINGTON  The first Army investigator who looked into the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman in Afghanistan last year found within days that he was killed by his fellow Rangers in an act of "gross negligence," but Army officials decided not to inform Tillman's family or the public until weeks after a nationally televised memorial service.
A new Army report shows that top Army officials, including the theater commander, Gen. John Abizaid, were told Tillman's death was fratricide days before the service.
Why do you bother trying out "six months later during the investigation" when the section you omitted has the answer - "within days".
What you fail to query is where the lie that ended up in the citation for the Silver Star originated. It wasn't a mistake, it was an invention. It wasn't an invention of the men on the ground, it was the invention of propagandists. By all means wait for a full investigation before you tell friends, family or press, but surely it's reasonable to say nothing rather than pump out Hollywood filth in place of the truth, whether that truth is known or unknown at the time.i agree. but again, you're basing your opinion on whatever spin the article is putting on it. again, the report - according to the article - claims that they found XYZ. i'd like to see the actual record and transcripts, thanks. the washington post has a distinctly anti-military stance, so who knows in what way they may be distorting things? as i pointed out, they spun the words well enough to have you believe that XYZ was known "immediately" - according to interviews conducted well after the fact.
Your words were: "bollocks! the whole point of an investigation is to confirm the truth. initial reports are just that - initial, and as such, not confirmed by a *full and complete* investigation. oh sure, let's tell the family right away that their son was killed by his brothers in arms. so what if later it might turn out to be wrong?!"
Are you seriously saying sure, go ahead with the citation and the two hour national telecast funeral even though it was an army-invented pastiche, in the hope that nobody will ever find out the truth later? Are you saying sure, the army had to invent something, and it might as well have been Hollywood dreck?
no, i'm not saying that. thanks for asking, better than just putting the words in my mouth then attacking me for them!
I don't buy that. If they had holes in their knowledge - and I say "if" not believing that they had any - then that's what they should say, but they can't fill the holes with gleaming Terminator fiction. Better yet, they could have come out with what the Platoon Commander must have told General Abizaid the day before the press conference of 30th April in which the General lied by omission. Or are you suggesting that the Platoon Commander might have lied by omission to his Theater Commander, too?no, but again, thanks for asking.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: the actual transcripts, as i said.I doubt whether I have access to them. Have you access to them? Can you direct me to them?
anastrophe wrote: ...no, i'm not saying that. thanks for asking, better than just putting the words in my mouth then attacking me for them!
...no, but again, thanks for asking.That's a fair summary of what you're not saying, then. May we have your opinion about the source of the information in the citation, please?
anastrophe wrote: ...no, i'm not saying that. thanks for asking, better than just putting the words in my mouth then attacking me for them!
...no, but again, thanks for asking.That's a fair summary of what you're not saying, then. May we have your opinion about the source of the information in the citation, please?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
spot wrote: I doubt whether I have access to them. Have you access to them? Can you direct me to them?
uh, google? my point is that you're coming to conclusions about this matter based upon one brief newspaper article. why would you trust this report any more or less than any other report?
That's a fair summary of what you're not saying, then.
no, it's not. that's frankly a pretty silly thing to say. let's summarize what paul isn't saying. he's not saying that aliens ate pat tillman's brain while having sex with madonna. he's not saying that the welding two pieces of metal together will bring jesus into your life. he's not saying that bottle caps held at arms length in front of the sun actually *turn off* the sun.
May we have your opinion about the source of the information in the citation, please?
i have no opinion about the source of the information in the citation, because i haven't read it. i don't know whether to believe or disbelieve a report from a newspaper that will take any and every opportunity to paint anything that isn't far left in a bad light against what decorated military officers stated publicly. i don't know what the motives of those reporting the story were, nor the motives of the military officers mentioned. i don't know if the reporter did or did not actually have an axe to grind in this case, or whether the officers had an axe to grind in this case.
i do think it would be best to actually read the report and decide for yourself, rather than just accepting on faith what the article said.
uh, google? my point is that you're coming to conclusions about this matter based upon one brief newspaper article. why would you trust this report any more or less than any other report?
That's a fair summary of what you're not saying, then.
no, it's not. that's frankly a pretty silly thing to say. let's summarize what paul isn't saying. he's not saying that aliens ate pat tillman's brain while having sex with madonna. he's not saying that the welding two pieces of metal together will bring jesus into your life. he's not saying that bottle caps held at arms length in front of the sun actually *turn off* the sun.
May we have your opinion about the source of the information in the citation, please?
i have no opinion about the source of the information in the citation, because i haven't read it. i don't know whether to believe or disbelieve a report from a newspaper that will take any and every opportunity to paint anything that isn't far left in a bad light against what decorated military officers stated publicly. i don't know what the motives of those reporting the story were, nor the motives of the military officers mentioned. i don't know if the reporter did or did not actually have an axe to grind in this case, or whether the officers had an axe to grind in this case.
i do think it would be best to actually read the report and decide for yourself, rather than just accepting on faith what the article said.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: uh, google?You feel that the original transcripts of evidence on these deaths are available through google? You're demented. And I'm not relying on single sources. Most of what I understand of this comes through a series of UK news articles from an investigative reporting team that has built up its reputation over decades, but I've cross-checked with a number of US publications. My quotes, so far, have been from at least four separate original reports over the last year.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
spot wrote: You feel that the original transcripts of evidence on these deaths are available through google? You're demented.
my point, in mentioning google, is not that you will necessarily find the actual report there. my point is that it is not for me to do your homework. you're the one who has come to a set of very specific conclusions, based, ostensibly, on the one article to which you linked at the very beginning of this thread. my point is that the article isn't the source.
And I'm not relying on single sources. Most of what I understand of this comes through a series of UK news articles from an investigative reporting team that has built up its reputation over decades, but I've cross-checked with a number of US publications. My quotes, so far, have been from at least four separate original reports over the last year.
okey dokey. 'original reports'. i just don't know what to make of any of this any more. you say you don't have access to the original source reports. but your quotes are from at least four separate 'original' reports over the last year. which is it? have you read the actual source report, or are you basing your assumptions on what others have written about the actual source report.
and not to disparage UK investigative reporting teams, but what the hell do they care about pat tillman? besides, forsooth, having some axe to grind about US policy?
my point, in mentioning google, is not that you will necessarily find the actual report there. my point is that it is not for me to do your homework. you're the one who has come to a set of very specific conclusions, based, ostensibly, on the one article to which you linked at the very beginning of this thread. my point is that the article isn't the source.
And I'm not relying on single sources. Most of what I understand of this comes through a series of UK news articles from an investigative reporting team that has built up its reputation over decades, but I've cross-checked with a number of US publications. My quotes, so far, have been from at least four separate original reports over the last year.
okey dokey. 'original reports'. i just don't know what to make of any of this any more. you say you don't have access to the original source reports. but your quotes are from at least four separate 'original' reports over the last year. which is it? have you read the actual source report, or are you basing your assumptions on what others have written about the actual source report.
and not to disparage UK investigative reporting teams, but what the hell do they care about pat tillman? besides, forsooth, having some axe to grind about US policy?
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Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: okey dokey. 'original reports'. i just don't know what to make of any of this any more.Original reports. As in, an original Associated Press report of an event, or an original Reuters report of an event, as opposed to various newspapers all of which have copied from a single such original report of an event. It's why the employees of Associated Press or Reuters are often called "reporters".
For the record, I believe that this is the full text of Pat Tillman's citation for the Silver Star, though it's very difficult to be sure since it wasn't widely disseminated:
---text starts---
During the Rangers' combat patrol, Tillman's platoon was split into two sections. Tillman, a team leader, was in the platoon's lead section when the trail section began receiving mortar and small arms fire. Because of the area's cavernous terrain, the trail element was unable to maneuver out of the kill zone and it was difficult for the embattled trail section to target the enemy positions.
Although Tillman's element was already safely out of the area of the attack, he ordered his team to dismount and then maneuvered the Rangers up a hill near the enemy's location. As they crested the hill, Tillman directed his team into firing positions and personally provided suppressive fire with an M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon machine gun.
Through the firing, Tillman's voice was heard issuing commands to take the fight to the enemy forces emplaced on the dominating high ground.
Only after Tillman's team had engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear that the hostile fires directed at the Ranger trail section were diminished.
Leading his Rangers without regard for his own safety, Tillman was shot and killed while focusing his efforts on the elimination of the enemy forces and the protection of his team members.
As a result of Tillman's combat leadership and his Soldiers' efforts, the platoon's trail section was able to maneuver through the ambush to positions of safety without taking a single casualty.
---text ends---
For the record, I believe that this is the full text of Pat Tillman's citation for the Silver Star, though it's very difficult to be sure since it wasn't widely disseminated:
---text starts---
During the Rangers' combat patrol, Tillman's platoon was split into two sections. Tillman, a team leader, was in the platoon's lead section when the trail section began receiving mortar and small arms fire. Because of the area's cavernous terrain, the trail element was unable to maneuver out of the kill zone and it was difficult for the embattled trail section to target the enemy positions.
Although Tillman's element was already safely out of the area of the attack, he ordered his team to dismount and then maneuvered the Rangers up a hill near the enemy's location. As they crested the hill, Tillman directed his team into firing positions and personally provided suppressive fire with an M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon machine gun.
Through the firing, Tillman's voice was heard issuing commands to take the fight to the enemy forces emplaced on the dominating high ground.
Only after Tillman's team had engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear that the hostile fires directed at the Ranger trail section were diminished.
Leading his Rangers without regard for his own safety, Tillman was shot and killed while focusing his efforts on the elimination of the enemy forces and the protection of his team members.
As a result of Tillman's combat leadership and his Soldiers' efforts, the platoon's trail section was able to maneuver through the ambush to positions of safety without taking a single casualty.
---text ends---
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
Hmmm.. I can't quite seem to understand why America-haters would join a predominently American board, just so they could post Anti-American "opinions"
Surely that's deliberate "trolling" isn't it? The act of stating a position that you know will inflame and insult the majority of the members.
I don't get it.
Surely that's deliberate "trolling" isn't it? The act of stating a position that you know will inflame and insult the majority of the members.
I don't get it.
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
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anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
Scrat wrote: The motives of the story more than likely was a cover up and turned out to be amaturish propaganda spun out of the military public relations machine , truth did not matter and could not be allowed to matter because someone such as Tillman getting offed by his own people would definitely look bad considering this whole war on terror is of dubious value all the way around.
It's not good for a star to die in any other way but gloriously is it?
This whole Tillman thing was about damage control, not truth.
curiously, the truth did come out. as reported by the US military.
doh!
It's not good for a star to die in any other way but gloriously is it?
This whole Tillman thing was about damage control, not truth.
curiously, the truth did come out. as reported by the US military.
doh!
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
spot wrote: Do please suggest a source I should go to instead.
anastrophe wrote: the actual transcripts, as i said.
Well, they finally came out with a refusal...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/nfl_afghan_usa_tillman_dc
"Curtin said the Army was not trying to cover up or hide anything by not releasing the new report".
Well, he would say that, wouldn't he.
There's a good discussion of this approach to damage control, at http://archiv.vulgo.net/index.php?optio ... e&sid=1303
I take just one paragraph from it, into the thread:
'In the past, faced with bad news, politicians typically dissimulated. They issued denials: "it never happened". Later, when denial was no longer possible, they downplayed the matter: "it happened, but it wasn't as bad as you say". Later still, when the scale of the scandal was clear, they would concede "well, yes, it happened and it was as bad as you say. But it's all so long ago - why dredge up the past?" '
anastrophe wrote: the actual transcripts, as i said.
Well, they finally came out with a refusal...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/nfl_afghan_usa_tillman_dc
"Curtin said the Army was not trying to cover up or hide anything by not releasing the new report".
Well, he would say that, wouldn't he.
There's a good discussion of this approach to damage control, at http://archiv.vulgo.net/index.php?optio ... e&sid=1303
I take just one paragraph from it, into the thread:
'In the past, faced with bad news, politicians typically dissimulated. They issued denials: "it never happened". Later, when denial was no longer possible, they downplayed the matter: "it happened, but it wasn't as bad as you say". Later still, when the scale of the scandal was clear, they would concede "well, yes, it happened and it was as bad as you say. But it's all so long ago - why dredge up the past?" '
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
spot wrote: Well, they finally came out with a refusal...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/nfl_afghan_usa_tillman_dc
"Curtin said the Army was not trying to cover up or hide anything by not releasing the new report".
Well, he would say that, wouldn't he.
There's a good discussion of this approach to damage control, at http://archiv.vulgo.net/index.php?optio ... e&sid=1303
I take just one paragraph from it, into the thread:
'In the past, faced with bad news, politicians typically dissimulated. They issued denials: "it never happened". Later, when denial was no longer possible, they downplayed the matter: "it happened, but it wasn't as bad as you say". Later still, when the scale of the scandal was clear, they would concede "well, yes, it happened and it was as bad as you say. But it's all so long ago - why dredge up the past?" '
pat tillman's family requested that the report itself not be made public. are you suggesting they are part of the coverup?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/nfl_afghan_usa_tillman_dc
"Curtin said the Army was not trying to cover up or hide anything by not releasing the new report".
Well, he would say that, wouldn't he.
There's a good discussion of this approach to damage control, at http://archiv.vulgo.net/index.php?optio ... e&sid=1303
I take just one paragraph from it, into the thread:
'In the past, faced with bad news, politicians typically dissimulated. They issued denials: "it never happened". Later, when denial was no longer possible, they downplayed the matter: "it happened, but it wasn't as bad as you say". Later still, when the scale of the scandal was clear, they would concede "well, yes, it happened and it was as bad as you say. But it's all so long ago - why dredge up the past?" '
pat tillman's family requested that the report itself not be made public. are you suggesting they are part of the coverup?
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: pat tillman's family requested that the report itself not be made public. are you suggesting they are part of the coverup?I've no idea, I can scarcely ask anyone who knows. But do you feel nobody in that Administration would feel constrained from putting them under any pressure?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
spot wrote: I've no idea, I can scarcely ask anyone who knows. But do you feel nobody in that Administration would feel constrained from putting them under any pressure?
no, and i find the suggestion absurd. the family complained bitterly, publicly, about the whole affair. i can't speak for other countries, but in this country, the people can express their displeasure with the government unfettered.
no, and i find the suggestion absurd. the family complained bitterly, publicly, about the whole affair. i can't speak for other countries, but in this country, the people can express their displeasure with the government unfettered.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: no, and i find the suggestion absurd. the family complained bitterly, publicly, about the whole affair. i can't speak for other countries, but in this country, the people can express their displeasure with the government unfettered.People in the US also seem to respond positively when told their patriotic duty.
If the report finally confirms the detail below - that there was no enemy activity that night - it would explain the reluctance to have it read in public. That seems a fair suggestion. Up until this report came out, "Although the Tillmans believe the Rangers who shot their son had been fired on by insurgents, they also say the Pentagon has tried to cover up deadly mistakes and negligence that night." If the report finally confirms otherwise, it would be a reason for them to agree to non-publication.
Tillman had conducted previous patrols in the Spera district, a mountainous region dominated by conservative Pushtun tribesmen. In the village of Magar, he became known as the soldier who handed out small sums of cash ($2 for children and $10 for men) and small, hand-cranked radios.
"He was a good man. Everybody in our tribe liked him," said Walikha Khan, a leader of the Borekhen tribe in Magar, a hilltop hamlet near the canyon where Tillman died.
Khan and other village headmen said Tillman's Afghan translator had told them that Tillman was a famous athlete in America. Khan said Tillman posed for photos with them.
The night Tillman died, Zamir Jan said he had been saying evening prayers around 7:30 p.m. when he heard a distant explosion high up a canyon wall south of his mud-walled dwelling. Jan, a thin, white-bearded farmer who said he did not know his age, is the only resident of the Laka Gorge, a series of rocky canyons hugging the Pakistan border.
Shortly afterward, Jan said, he heard gunfire that continued for at least 20 minutes. Just after the shooting stopped, he said, a group of American soldiers broke down his door and stormed into his house. He said they searched the dwelling, destroyed his food supplies and accused Jan of setting the explosion.
Jan said he told the soldiers' Afghan interpreter that he knew nothing about the explosion. The soldiers then asked him for a mattress, saying they needed it for a badly wounded American soldier outside.
Jan said he learned later that the soldier bleeding in the dark between two boulders on a ridge just below his house was a famous American football player. Later that night, he said, an American military helicopter landed in the streambed and evacuated Tillman's body.
Police chief Khan and his deputy, Din, said they were eating a dinner of flatbread and chicken at the tiny stone district police station a few miles from the canyon that evening. Hearing an explosion, they gathered up several policemen and set out in four-wheel drive vehicle to investigate.
"This is my district, and it's my responsibility to investigate whenever there's gunfire," Khan said.
When they reached the canyon, the two men said, they were intercepted by American soldiers who refused to answer questions or allow them to speak to Afghan militiamen.
Early the next morning, Khan said, he and his men returned to the canyon and were able to question militiamen who had witnessed the shooting.
"They said the Americans misunderstood what was happening," Khan said. "They were so worried about being attacked by the Taliban that they overreacted."
The explosion, which sent rocks tumbling down the mountainside in the dark, created a series of confusing echoes, Din said. Both Ranger units "thought the Taliban or Al Qaeda had opened fire on them," he said.
If the report finally confirms the detail below - that there was no enemy activity that night - it would explain the reluctance to have it read in public. That seems a fair suggestion. Up until this report came out, "Although the Tillmans believe the Rangers who shot their son had been fired on by insurgents, they also say the Pentagon has tried to cover up deadly mistakes and negligence that night." If the report finally confirms otherwise, it would be a reason for them to agree to non-publication.
Tillman had conducted previous patrols in the Spera district, a mountainous region dominated by conservative Pushtun tribesmen. In the village of Magar, he became known as the soldier who handed out small sums of cash ($2 for children and $10 for men) and small, hand-cranked radios.
"He was a good man. Everybody in our tribe liked him," said Walikha Khan, a leader of the Borekhen tribe in Magar, a hilltop hamlet near the canyon where Tillman died.
Khan and other village headmen said Tillman's Afghan translator had told them that Tillman was a famous athlete in America. Khan said Tillman posed for photos with them.
The night Tillman died, Zamir Jan said he had been saying evening prayers around 7:30 p.m. when he heard a distant explosion high up a canyon wall south of his mud-walled dwelling. Jan, a thin, white-bearded farmer who said he did not know his age, is the only resident of the Laka Gorge, a series of rocky canyons hugging the Pakistan border.
Shortly afterward, Jan said, he heard gunfire that continued for at least 20 minutes. Just after the shooting stopped, he said, a group of American soldiers broke down his door and stormed into his house. He said they searched the dwelling, destroyed his food supplies and accused Jan of setting the explosion.
Jan said he told the soldiers' Afghan interpreter that he knew nothing about the explosion. The soldiers then asked him for a mattress, saying they needed it for a badly wounded American soldier outside.
Jan said he learned later that the soldier bleeding in the dark between two boulders on a ridge just below his house was a famous American football player. Later that night, he said, an American military helicopter landed in the streambed and evacuated Tillman's body.
Police chief Khan and his deputy, Din, said they were eating a dinner of flatbread and chicken at the tiny stone district police station a few miles from the canyon that evening. Hearing an explosion, they gathered up several policemen and set out in four-wheel drive vehicle to investigate.
"This is my district, and it's my responsibility to investigate whenever there's gunfire," Khan said.
When they reached the canyon, the two men said, they were intercepted by American soldiers who refused to answer questions or allow them to speak to Afghan militiamen.
Early the next morning, Khan said, he and his men returned to the canyon and were able to question militiamen who had witnessed the shooting.
"They said the Americans misunderstood what was happening," Khan said. "They were so worried about being attacked by the Taliban that they overreacted."
The explosion, which sent rocks tumbling down the mountainside in the dark, created a series of confusing echoes, Din said. Both Ranger units "thought the Taliban or Al Qaeda had opened fire on them," he said.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
spot wrote: People in the US also seem to respond positively when told their patriotic duty.
and you know this based upon what? partis pris, most likely. why not come right out and say what you mean?
yes, the hundreds of thousands who have protested in the streets definitely did respond positively to being told that their patriotic duty was to not demonstrate against the war. heck, it makes sense. there were no demonstrations. none at all. all those photos in the newspapers, and all that video shown on television? staged. on a movie set. to keep the american sheep, er, i mean, people, nicely in line. let them believe that there's actual dissent. yes, it's a huge government coverup. anyone who disagrees with this country's policies tends to 'disappear'. that's why there are relentless editorials in the newspapers, every single day, decrying america's foreign policy. they're all made up, by the government, in a brilliant conspiracy to make the sheep, i mean, people, *think* that there's actual dissent. it really is truly brilliant. and those reports the government came out with, confirming that there were no weapons of mass destruction. brilliant! yes, the government planned it all out perfectly. first, make up fake evidence of weapons of mass destruction. go to war over them. then, rather than covering up the fact that the evidence was fake - or even easier, conveniently "finding" some handy weapons of mass destruction that the CIA could build easily and make it look like they were built by saddam - no, the brilliant 'coverup' was to actually let the public find out that there were no WMD's! make the people *think* that the government is honest, by *not* covering up the failure! truly brilliant!!!!!!!!
If the report finally confirms the detail below - that there was no enemy activity that night - it would explain the reluctance to have it read in public. That seems a fair suggestion. Up until this report came out, "Although the Tillmans believe the Rangers who shot their son had been fired on by insurgents, they also say the Pentagon has tried to cover up deadly mistakes and negligence that night." If the report finally confirms otherwise, it would be a reason for them to agree to non-publication.
this makes no sense whatsoever. none. the tillman family wanted the truth to come out. they complained publicly. a government investigation was launched. the truth was revealed that in fact there was a coverup by officers, and they made up the story of tillman's bravery. sooo........that would be reason for the tillman family to suddenly become good little patriotic citizens, and agree to the government covering up the details further?
no sense at all.
and you know this based upon what? partis pris, most likely. why not come right out and say what you mean?
yes, the hundreds of thousands who have protested in the streets definitely did respond positively to being told that their patriotic duty was to not demonstrate against the war. heck, it makes sense. there were no demonstrations. none at all. all those photos in the newspapers, and all that video shown on television? staged. on a movie set. to keep the american sheep, er, i mean, people, nicely in line. let them believe that there's actual dissent. yes, it's a huge government coverup. anyone who disagrees with this country's policies tends to 'disappear'. that's why there are relentless editorials in the newspapers, every single day, decrying america's foreign policy. they're all made up, by the government, in a brilliant conspiracy to make the sheep, i mean, people, *think* that there's actual dissent. it really is truly brilliant. and those reports the government came out with, confirming that there were no weapons of mass destruction. brilliant! yes, the government planned it all out perfectly. first, make up fake evidence of weapons of mass destruction. go to war over them. then, rather than covering up the fact that the evidence was fake - or even easier, conveniently "finding" some handy weapons of mass destruction that the CIA could build easily and make it look like they were built by saddam - no, the brilliant 'coverup' was to actually let the public find out that there were no WMD's! make the people *think* that the government is honest, by *not* covering up the failure! truly brilliant!!!!!!!!
If the report finally confirms the detail below - that there was no enemy activity that night - it would explain the reluctance to have it read in public. That seems a fair suggestion. Up until this report came out, "Although the Tillmans believe the Rangers who shot their son had been fired on by insurgents, they also say the Pentagon has tried to cover up deadly mistakes and negligence that night." If the report finally confirms otherwise, it would be a reason for them to agree to non-publication.
this makes no sense whatsoever. none. the tillman family wanted the truth to come out. they complained publicly. a government investigation was launched. the truth was revealed that in fact there was a coverup by officers, and they made up the story of tillman's bravery. sooo........that would be reason for the tillman family to suddenly become good little patriotic citizens, and agree to the government covering up the details further?
no sense at all.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: and you know this based upon what? partis pris, most likely. why not come right out and say what you mean? I think it was in my mind from reading something John Swinton, former Chief of Staff at The New York Times, said to the New York Press Club:
"There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job.
"If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth; to lie outright; to pervert; to vilify; to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell the country for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press. We are the tools and vassals of the rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."
anastrophe wrote: a government investigation was launched. the truth was revealed that in fact there was a coverup by officers, and they made up the story of tillman's bravery. sooo........that would be reason for the tillman family to suddenly become good little patriotic citizens, and agree to the government covering up the details further?Perhaps, if I'd been allowed to read the report, I could answer that. As it is, we'll have to wait for it to be declassified.
"There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job.
"If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth; to lie outright; to pervert; to vilify; to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell the country for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press. We are the tools and vassals of the rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."
anastrophe wrote: a government investigation was launched. the truth was revealed that in fact there was a coverup by officers, and they made up the story of tillman's bravery. sooo........that would be reason for the tillman family to suddenly become good little patriotic citizens, and agree to the government covering up the details further?Perhaps, if I'd been allowed to read the report, I could answer that. As it is, we'll have to wait for it to be declassified.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
spot wrote: I think it was in my mind from reading something John Swinton, former Chief of Staff at The New York Times, said to the New York Press Club:
"There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job.
"If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth; to lie outright; to pervert; to vilify; to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell the country for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press. We are the tools and vassals of the rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."
clearly, you prefer the rantings of what appears to be a clinical paranoic over the actual evidence of dissent you can find plastered all over the internet, and that includes the websites of the popular press.
as i said - partis pris.
"There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job.
"If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth; to lie outright; to pervert; to vilify; to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell the country for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press. We are the tools and vassals of the rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."
clearly, you prefer the rantings of what appears to be a clinical paranoic over the actual evidence of dissent you can find plastered all over the internet, and that includes the websites of the popular press.
as i said - partis pris.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: clearly, you prefer the rantings of what appears to be a clinical paranoic over the actual evidence of dissent you can find plastered all over the internet, and that includes the websites of the popular press.
as i said - partis pris.John Swinton was an honorable man, Sir, not a clinical paranoic.
I've used "parti pris", to mean bias, or pre-judging a case, or having a mind already made up, but I have never encountered it in the plural before. What on earth does partis pris mean?
as i said - partis pris.John Swinton was an honorable man, Sir, not a clinical paranoic.
I've used "parti pris", to mean bias, or pre-judging a case, or having a mind already made up, but I have never encountered it in the plural before. What on earth does partis pris mean?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
spot wrote: John Swinton was an honorable man, Sir, not a clinical paranoic.this is pretty funny. i just did some further research. you've been bamboozled.
http://www.rense.com/general20/yes.htm
of course, if you want to continue to maintain that this quote, from at least 150 years ago, bears some relevance - hey, whatever puts wind in your sails.
the curious thing is that you posed that quote as somehow having something to do with your statement that "People in the US also seem to respond positively when told their patriotic duty." a rambling indictment of the press, lodged 100 or so years ago, seems rather far removed from your statement, to say the least.
but it falls right in line with your need to turn everything into an indictment of america, and americans.
I've used "parti pris", to mean bias, or pre-judging a case, or having a mind already made up, but I have never encountered it in the plural before. What on earth does partis pris mean?it's called a misspelling. it happens, remarkably enough, to us all at one time or another.
http://www.rense.com/general20/yes.htm
of course, if you want to continue to maintain that this quote, from at least 150 years ago, bears some relevance - hey, whatever puts wind in your sails.
the curious thing is that you posed that quote as somehow having something to do with your statement that "People in the US also seem to respond positively when told their patriotic duty." a rambling indictment of the press, lodged 100 or so years ago, seems rather far removed from your statement, to say the least.
but it falls right in line with your need to turn everything into an indictment of america, and americans.
I've used "parti pris", to mean bias, or pre-judging a case, or having a mind already made up, but I have never encountered it in the plural before. What on earth does partis pris mean?it's called a misspelling. it happens, remarkably enough, to us all at one time or another.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: this is pretty funny. i just did some further research. you've been bamboozled.
http://www.rense.com/general20/yes.htm
of course, if you want to continue to maintain that this quote, from at least 150 years ago, bears some relevance - hey, whatever puts wind in your sails.Just page down your cited webpage, it's there word for word. John Swinton, then the preeminent New York journalist, was the guest of honour at a banquet given him by the leaders of his craft, followed by what I quoted. Why does it being said in 1880 make it inappropriate? I don't feel bamboozled. I liked the way he expressed what critics of Rupert Murdoch have been saying for decades.
http://www.rense.com/general20/yes.htm
of course, if you want to continue to maintain that this quote, from at least 150 years ago, bears some relevance - hey, whatever puts wind in your sails.Just page down your cited webpage, it's there word for word. John Swinton, then the preeminent New York journalist, was the guest of honour at a banquet given him by the leaders of his craft, followed by what I quoted. Why does it being said in 1880 make it inappropriate? I don't feel bamboozled. I liked the way he expressed what critics of Rupert Murdoch have been saying for decades.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
spot wrote: Just page down your cited webpage, it's there word for word. John Swinton, then the preeminent New York journalist, was the guest of honour at a banquet given him by the leaders of his craft, followed by what I quoted. Why does it being said in 1880 make it inappropriate? I don't feel bamboozled. I liked the way he expressed what critics of Rupert Murdoch have been saying for decades.
feel free to keep drifting further and further and further. this is the behavior that elicited the label "Troll". i respond to something you've written, you digress yet ever further from what was actually written, to add new fuel to the conversation having to do with your parti pris regarding america and americans.
now we have rupert murdoch tossed into the mix. all because i challenged you on your mean-spirited, coy statement that "People in the US also seem to respond positively when told their patriotic duty."
yes. of course. makes perfect sense. americans are subservient sheep, and it apparently relates to rupert murdoch.
ignore the reality, and the evidence that would smack you in the forehead if you were to remove your blinders.
feel free to keep drifting further and further and further. this is the behavior that elicited the label "Troll". i respond to something you've written, you digress yet ever further from what was actually written, to add new fuel to the conversation having to do with your parti pris regarding america and americans.
now we have rupert murdoch tossed into the mix. all because i challenged you on your mean-spirited, coy statement that "People in the US also seem to respond positively when told their patriotic duty."
yes. of course. makes perfect sense. americans are subservient sheep, and it apparently relates to rupert murdoch.
ignore the reality, and the evidence that would smack you in the forehead if you were to remove your blinders.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: now we have rupert murdoch tossed into the mix. all because i challenged you on your mean-spirited, coy statement that "People in the US also seem to respond positively when told their patriotic duty."Do you know, I'd completely forgotten that Rupert Murdoch was now an American citizen. I apologize for bringing him into the mix, then, I think of him, naturally, as the Aussie carpetbagger who has owned a quarter of the UK press since the 1980s.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
spot wrote: Do you know, I'd completely forgotten that Rupert Murdoch was now an American citizen. I apologize for bringing him into the mix, then, I think of him, naturally, as the Aussie carpetbagger who has owned a quarter of the UK press since the 1980s.
pat tillman. topic over. perhaps i should just close the thread? this has devolved into one of the singularly pathetic topics i've made the poor judgement of engaging in here in FG.
pat tillman. topic over. perhaps i should just close the thread? this has devolved into one of the singularly pathetic topics i've made the poor judgement of engaging in here in FG.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: pat tillman. topic over. perhaps i should just close the thread? this has devolved into one of the singularly pathetic topics i've made the poor judgement of engaging in here in FG.OK, you want to be back on topic, here's the current comments from the Hill.
"This goes to a bigger question," said Democratic Rep. Ed Pastor. "This is part of a pattern of the military not being truthful to the American people when dealing with high-profile situations with a lot of publicity." Pastor said he was referring also to the Abu Ghraib prison scandals and the military's initial hyping of the story of Pfc. Jessica Lynch.
Franks, Hayworth, Pastor and other lawmakers from Arizona said it should have been evident to the Army that the truth would not have diminished Tillman's patriotic sacrifice and heroism.
An Army spokesman on Wednesday denied any intentional cover-up in the April 22, 2004, death of Tillman, 27, in eastern Afghanistan, as he and other Rangers patrolled a rugged canyon area near the Pakistan border.The report is out though not public. The Army *still*, after the new report, denies "any intentional cover-up" from the outset. So where did the content of the citation - which I've quoted earlier, in full - come from?
"This goes to a bigger question," said Democratic Rep. Ed Pastor. "This is part of a pattern of the military not being truthful to the American people when dealing with high-profile situations with a lot of publicity." Pastor said he was referring also to the Abu Ghraib prison scandals and the military's initial hyping of the story of Pfc. Jessica Lynch.
Franks, Hayworth, Pastor and other lawmakers from Arizona said it should have been evident to the Army that the truth would not have diminished Tillman's patriotic sacrifice and heroism.
An Army spokesman on Wednesday denied any intentional cover-up in the April 22, 2004, death of Tillman, 27, in eastern Afghanistan, as he and other Rangers patrolled a rugged canyon area near the Pakistan border.The report is out though not public. The Army *still*, after the new report, denies "any intentional cover-up" from the outset. So where did the content of the citation - which I've quoted earlier, in full - come from?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
The focus does seem to be closing in on General Abizaid, as far as responsibility for this cover-up goes. I re-iterate my invitation to write to the General, as described earlier in this thread.
"As far as our family is concerned, the case of Pat's death is not closed, as the Army suggests," she [Mary Tillman] told me. "It concerns us that the documents we received state that Gen. [John P.] Abizaid knew on April 28 that Pat was absolutely killed by fratricide. Why were we not told prior to Pat's memorial service, which was nationally televised on May 3? We weren't told until five weeks later, and only because the troops that were with Pat came home from Afghanistan and the story was unfolding."
Remainder of yesterday's item, http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/com ... 773.column
It may, as has been suggested here, be an Anti-American left-wing propaganda rag of no repute and decadent moral values, but at least the LA Times allows her a means to express her position, and to maintain pressure on a small bunch of very powerful people who damaged both her specifically and the American public in general.
I'd quite like to read the unpublished report.
"As far as our family is concerned, the case of Pat's death is not closed, as the Army suggests," she [Mary Tillman] told me. "It concerns us that the documents we received state that Gen. [John P.] Abizaid knew on April 28 that Pat was absolutely killed by fratricide. Why were we not told prior to Pat's memorial service, which was nationally televised on May 3? We weren't told until five weeks later, and only because the troops that were with Pat came home from Afghanistan and the story was unfolding."
Remainder of yesterday's item, http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/com ... 773.column
It may, as has been suggested here, be an Anti-American left-wing propaganda rag of no repute and decadent moral values, but at least the LA Times allows her a means to express her position, and to maintain pressure on a small bunch of very powerful people who damaged both her specifically and the American public in general.
I'd quite like to read the unpublished report.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings, Scrat. Yesterday's article was the first I've seen that confirmed the timeline of knowledge I'd been claiming in this thread. To the very day.
The agenda you refer to, presumably, is the transformation of Afghanistan to a free market economy? I'm never quite sure.
The agenda you refer to, presumably, is the transformation of Afghanistan to a free market economy? I'm never quite sure.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
spot wrote:
It may, as has been suggested here, be an Anti-American left-wing propaganda rag of no repute and decadent moral values, but at least the LA Times allows her a means to express her position, and to maintain pressure on a small bunch of very powerful people who damaged both her specifically and the American public in general.
from anyone else, the concern expressed for the tillman's and the american public in general would be touching, and heartwarming.
Sadly, there is no expression of concern for tillman's family or the american public in general. the topic is merely another convenient whipping boy for spot, who is convinced that there is a cabal in america that is responsible for - if not everything wrong, most things wrong in the world.
the malign obsession with america so many brits have would be comical if it wasn't so hostile. why, i can hear the shouting behind every one of them - "We USED TO BE the most powerful imperialist nation on the planet! Iraq USED TO BE our toy to play with! Remember the Falklands, we beat the stuffing out of those sheep! WE'RE IMPORTANT, damn you, it's true! We're NOT an insignificant country, shut up you liars! it's all YOUR FAULT! YOU'RE the bully of the world (a title we wish we had like the good old days)"
this post brought to you by coffee, a short temper, and a malign obsession with the insignificance of the UK.
It may, as has been suggested here, be an Anti-American left-wing propaganda rag of no repute and decadent moral values, but at least the LA Times allows her a means to express her position, and to maintain pressure on a small bunch of very powerful people who damaged both her specifically and the American public in general.
from anyone else, the concern expressed for the tillman's and the american public in general would be touching, and heartwarming.
Sadly, there is no expression of concern for tillman's family or the american public in general. the topic is merely another convenient whipping boy for spot, who is convinced that there is a cabal in america that is responsible for - if not everything wrong, most things wrong in the world.
the malign obsession with america so many brits have would be comical if it wasn't so hostile. why, i can hear the shouting behind every one of them - "We USED TO BE the most powerful imperialist nation on the planet! Iraq USED TO BE our toy to play with! Remember the Falklands, we beat the stuffing out of those sheep! WE'RE IMPORTANT, damn you, it's true! We're NOT an insignificant country, shut up you liars! it's all YOUR FAULT! YOU'RE the bully of the world (a title we wish we had like the good old days)"
this post brought to you by coffee, a short temper, and a malign obsession with the insignificance of the UK.
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Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: the topic is merely another convenient whipping boy for spotWhat a metaphor. Topics aren't whipping boys. People are whipping boys. I seem to be yours, anastrophe. It's my lucky day. I often have to pay good cash for abuse.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
spot wrote: What a metaphor. Topics aren't whipping boys. People are whipping boys.
really? you mean a topic isn't a human being? wow, your powers of explanation are truly illuminating. now go look up the word "metaphor". sheesh.
I seem to be yours, anastrophe. It's my lucky day. I often have to pay good cash for abuse.
and there's the conclusion to the evidence that you're a masochist, as first evidenced in 'novocane[sic]'.
at least now we know why you keep coming back for more.
really? you mean a topic isn't a human being? wow, your powers of explanation are truly illuminating. now go look up the word "metaphor". sheesh.
I seem to be yours, anastrophe. It's my lucky day. I often have to pay good cash for abuse.
and there's the conclusion to the evidence that you're a masochist, as first evidenced in 'novocane[sic]'.
at least now we know why you keep coming back for more.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: really? you mean a topic isn't a human being? wow, your powers of explanation are truly illuminating. now go look up the word "metaphor". sheesh.The expression you need is, I suspect "whipping post".
Whipping boys were paid staff of the aristocracy, on whom the blows fell when the young prince misbehaved. It was supposed to teach the young prince to behave in a more courtly fashion.
Whipping boys were paid staff of the aristocracy, on whom the blows fell when the young prince misbehaved. It was supposed to teach the young prince to behave in a more courtly fashion.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
spot wrote: The expression you need is, I suspect "whipping post".
Whipping boys were paid staff of the aristocracy, on whom the blows fell when the young prince misbehaved. It was supposed to teach the young prince to behave in a more courtly fashion.
sigh. i'm aware of what the term means, spotster. but you still don't get it. oh well. back to flogging pat tillman's corpse, old boy!
Whipping boys were paid staff of the aristocracy, on whom the blows fell when the young prince misbehaved. It was supposed to teach the young prince to behave in a more courtly fashion.
sigh. i'm aware of what the term means, spotster. but you still don't get it. oh well. back to flogging pat tillman's corpse, old boy!
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: and there's the conclusion to the evidence that you're a masochist, as first evidenced in 'novocane[sic]'.Well, no, not quite - it's another of those literary allusions you so disapprove of me dropping into threads, this time to a reasonably well known Monty Python sketch.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Pat Tillman, and a failed Hollywood script.
anastrophe wrote: sigh. i'm aware of what the term means, spotster. but you still don't get it. oh well. back to flogging pat tillman's corpse, old boy!If you knew what it meant, you strange fellow, why did you mis-use it?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.