Not a frivolous matter!
The question, are we wolves, sheep, or merely half-awake children was not posted as a frivolous matter.
If we wish to improve our social structure we must know what humans are at a very basic level. The sciences of psychology, sociology, and psychiatry have determined that we have a neutral nature. We are not inherently selfish, evil, and self-destructive SOBs as we sometimes appear to be.
We are merely half-awake children and thus we can fairly easily turn around this lousy social structure we have invented if we can awaken the masses. I have decided that it is my duty as your Dutch uncle to awaken these young slumbering giants; and thus my posts. I have decided that I must ride through the towns and cities crying “awaken young giants, there is much learning to be done, go quickly to your nearest library and begin, the hour is very late.
Time is late because we have constructed hi-tech toys that can easily destroy us. We cannot continue, foolishly playing with matches, while sitting in a pool of gasoline.
Some have identified the generation that fought WWII as the greatest generation; for good reason. That generation had to kill and die in battle to save civilization; they did it with courage and dignity. Does this generation, the one just coming of age, have the courage and dignity to save civilization from self-destruction? This generation need not kill and die; this generation needs only to develop an intellectual life. Perhaps our society has generated young citizens who find it easier to kill and die than to learn and lead.
Hi-oh Silver, away; who was that masked-man mounted on the white horse; perhaps the apocalypse--perhaps our guardian angel?
Not a frivolous matter!
Not a frivolous matter!
coberst;544930 wrote: We are not inherently selfish, evil, and self-destructive SOBs as we sometimes appear to be.
I hope you are correct, though I'm not as optimistic about this as I use to be.
coberst;544930 wrote: We cannot continue, foolishly playing with matches, while sitting in a pool of gasoline.
Sagan? It's not just the playing with matches, it's the obsession with never having enough of them.
coberst;544930 wrote: Some have identified the generation that fought WWII as the greatest generation; for good reason. That generation had to kill and die in battle to save civilization; they did it with courage and dignity.coberst;544930 wrote: Perhaps our society has generated young citizens who find it easier to kill and die than to learn and lead.
Do you think that courage and dignity are byproducts of evolution? If so, does their digression between generations undermine your argument?
I hope you are correct, though I'm not as optimistic about this as I use to be.
coberst;544930 wrote: We cannot continue, foolishly playing with matches, while sitting in a pool of gasoline.
Sagan? It's not just the playing with matches, it's the obsession with never having enough of them.
coberst;544930 wrote: Some have identified the generation that fought WWII as the greatest generation; for good reason. That generation had to kill and die in battle to save civilization; they did it with courage and dignity.coberst;544930 wrote: Perhaps our society has generated young citizens who find it easier to kill and die than to learn and lead.
Do you think that courage and dignity are byproducts of evolution? If so, does their digression between generations undermine your argument?
Not a frivolous matter!
BH says--"Do you think that courage and dignity are byproducts of evolution? If so, does their digression between generations undermine your argument?"
You lost me.
You lost me.
Not a frivolous matter!
coberst;545124 wrote: You lost me.
Sorry. Perhaps I read more into your post than was there.
The qualities that you ascribed to the WWII generation, courage and dignity, are not included in your admonition to the current generation. Simply that they develop an intellectual life. Do you find these qualities lacking, sleeping, or unnecessary for our current times?
Sorry. Perhaps I read more into your post than was there.
The qualities that you ascribed to the WWII generation, courage and dignity, are not included in your admonition to the current generation. Simply that they develop an intellectual life. Do you find these qualities lacking, sleeping, or unnecessary for our current times?
Not a frivolous matter!
BH
The threat for the WWII generation was fascism, and militarism. These evils called for courage to defeat them.
The problem faced to today’s society is the nature of the society that we have created in which we have constructed a technology that gives us little room for error.
When we killed one another with the old technology we were not able to destroy the species with a small error in calculation. Of course there are the problems of the destruction of the planet also.
Our problem today is that we have not learned to structure a morality that allows us to live together in harmony. Such a moral structure requires that society become much more intellectually sophisticated than before. We need to raise the level of intellectual sophistication significantly so that we can begin to dialogue together and create a different social structure that will allow us and our planet to survive. To remain ignorant is to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
The threat for the WWII generation was fascism, and militarism. These evils called for courage to defeat them.
The problem faced to today’s society is the nature of the society that we have created in which we have constructed a technology that gives us little room for error.
When we killed one another with the old technology we were not able to destroy the species with a small error in calculation. Of course there are the problems of the destruction of the planet also.
Our problem today is that we have not learned to structure a morality that allows us to live together in harmony. Such a moral structure requires that society become much more intellectually sophisticated than before. We need to raise the level of intellectual sophistication significantly so that we can begin to dialogue together and create a different social structure that will allow us and our planet to survive. To remain ignorant is to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
Not a frivolous matter!
coberst;545390 wrote: The threat for the WWII generation was fascism, and militarism. These evils called for courage to defeat them.
Absolutely. And yet, one could argue that fascism and militarism were only indirectly targeted when the civilian populations of London, Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima and Nagasaki (and others) were bombed. Which leads to:
coberst wrote: Our problem today is that we have not learned to structure a morality that allows us to live together in harmony. Such a moral structure requires that society become much more intellectually sophisticated than before. We need to raise the level of intellectual sophistication significantly so that we can begin to dialogue together and create a different social structure that will allow us and our planet to survive. To remain ignorant is to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
Absolutely. And yet, I would ask, "What has changed?" Granted, we're playing with more matches in a larger room of gasoline now, but what else? The intellectual sophistication that would have prevented WWII did not exist. The intellectual sophistication that would have prevented the deliberate targeting of civilian populations did not exist. Now, it is with our continued lack of intellectual sophistication that we replace fascism and militarism with renewed colonialism and religious martyrdom. And civilians continue to be the bargaining chips. We would rather be immoral than accept another's morality. What has ever changed?
coberst wrote: We are not inherently selfish, evil, and self-destructive SOBs as we sometimes appear to be.
The potential for intellectual sophistication died when Moonwatcher murdered rather than share a watering hole [or however that first encounter went down].
I share your concerns, as I pointed out in my first response, I do not share your optimism.
Absolutely. And yet, one could argue that fascism and militarism were only indirectly targeted when the civilian populations of London, Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima and Nagasaki (and others) were bombed. Which leads to:
coberst wrote: Our problem today is that we have not learned to structure a morality that allows us to live together in harmony. Such a moral structure requires that society become much more intellectually sophisticated than before. We need to raise the level of intellectual sophistication significantly so that we can begin to dialogue together and create a different social structure that will allow us and our planet to survive. To remain ignorant is to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
Absolutely. And yet, I would ask, "What has changed?" Granted, we're playing with more matches in a larger room of gasoline now, but what else? The intellectual sophistication that would have prevented WWII did not exist. The intellectual sophistication that would have prevented the deliberate targeting of civilian populations did not exist. Now, it is with our continued lack of intellectual sophistication that we replace fascism and militarism with renewed colonialism and religious martyrdom. And civilians continue to be the bargaining chips. We would rather be immoral than accept another's morality. What has ever changed?
coberst wrote: We are not inherently selfish, evil, and self-destructive SOBs as we sometimes appear to be.
The potential for intellectual sophistication died when Moonwatcher murdered rather than share a watering hole [or however that first encounter went down].
I share your concerns, as I pointed out in my first response, I do not share your optimism.
Not a frivolous matter!
BH
I hope everyone in the younger generation does not give up so easily.
I hope everyone in the younger generation does not give up so easily.
Not a frivolous matter!
The operative question and perhaps most compelling aspect of your insight is how do we all get "on the same page" ?
I AM AWESOME MAN
Not a frivolous matter!
Nomad;546013 wrote: The operative question and perhaps most compelling aspect of your insight is how do we all get "on the same page" ?
We do not want to be on the same page. What we want are critical thinking, knowledgable, and independent minded adults.
We do not want to be on the same page. What we want are critical thinking, knowledgable, and independent minded adults.
Not a frivolous matter!
coberst;546043 wrote: We do not want to be on the same page. What we want are critical thinking, knowledgable, and independent minded adults.
well that rules jimbo out , but who are the we big guy
well that rules jimbo out , but who are the we big guy
Not a frivolous matter!
coberst;546043 wrote: We do not want to be on the same page. What we want are critical thinking, knowledgable, and independent minded adults.
That coupled with an "Im right and only Im right" attitude and we have the usual quagmire.
Save yourself.
That coupled with an "Im right and only Im right" attitude and we have the usual quagmire.
Save yourself.
I AM AWESOME MAN
Not a frivolous matter!
coberst;545950 wrote:
I hope everyone in the younger generation does not give up so easily.
I hope you are right, my Dutch uncle.
coberst;545390 wrote: Our problem today is that we have not learned to structure a morality that allows us to live together in harmony.
Why not? Could it be that this would require a greater measure of humility than intellectual sophistication?
coberst;546043 wrote: We do not want to be on the same page. What we want are critical thinking, knowledgable, and independent minded adults.
Are we not achieving this? In fact, while I am not anti-intellectualism, isn't the independent minded attitude at the very heart of our inability to establish a sense of community?
I hope everyone in the younger generation does not give up so easily.
I hope you are right, my Dutch uncle.
coberst;545390 wrote: Our problem today is that we have not learned to structure a morality that allows us to live together in harmony.
Why not? Could it be that this would require a greater measure of humility than intellectual sophistication?
coberst;546043 wrote: We do not want to be on the same page. What we want are critical thinking, knowledgable, and independent minded adults.
Are we not achieving this? In fact, while I am not anti-intellectualism, isn't the independent minded attitude at the very heart of our inability to establish a sense of community?
Not a frivolous matter!
To reason together we must share a common pool of knowledge. To dialogue together about complex, multifacted problems requires that we share a wide range of common knowledge, a unity of knowledge is necessary. We have not prepared our young people to be either Critical Thinkers nor have they learned how to learn on their own in most cases. A greater degree of intellectual sophistication is necessary to allow us to come together in dialogue to create a social structure that will promote a moral understanding for social harmony.
Not a frivolous matter!
coberst wrote: Our problem today is that we have not learned to structure a morality that allows us to live together in harmony.
I sure miss those pre Big Bang days.
I sure miss those pre Big Bang days.
Not a frivolous matter!
coberst;546163 wrote: To reason together we must share a common pool of knowledge.
I disagree, as we have confused knowledge with wisdom. Wisdom allows reasonable people to reach similar conclusions, even when the people are not similar. There is no lack of knowledge on the planet. Wisdom is rare. Why?
coberst wrote: A greater degree of intellectual sophistication is necessary to allow us to come together in dialogue to create a social structure that will promote a moral understanding for social harmony.
With all due respect, post-modernism, fueled in part by intellectual sophistication, resists your goals. Truth, therefore morality, is all relative now. Critical Thinkers tell us this.
I disagree, as we have confused knowledge with wisdom. Wisdom allows reasonable people to reach similar conclusions, even when the people are not similar. There is no lack of knowledge on the planet. Wisdom is rare. Why?
coberst wrote: A greater degree of intellectual sophistication is necessary to allow us to come together in dialogue to create a social structure that will promote a moral understanding for social harmony.
With all due respect, post-modernism, fueled in part by intellectual sophistication, resists your goals. Truth, therefore morality, is all relative now. Critical Thinkers tell us this.
Not a frivolous matter!
koan;546200 wrote: I sure miss those pre Big Bang days.
Life was rich and meaningful then wasnt it ? (((sigh)))
No disrespect Coberst but Ive given up on unity through deeper reasoning. I used to have those thoughts but they seem to have decomposed and moldered. Oddly enough very soon after joining FG.
Life was rich and meaningful then wasnt it ? (((sigh)))
No disrespect Coberst but Ive given up on unity through deeper reasoning. I used to have those thoughts but they seem to have decomposed and moldered. Oddly enough very soon after joining FG.
I AM AWESOME MAN