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Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

jesse b;523206 wrote: if i think that you are going to shot me with an illegal gun and i use an illegal gun to stop you no jury in the land will or can convict me of muder self defence reasonable force same force as attack

sorry mate your it


Can i just ask ( i'm just curious) how would a person justify having an illegal firearm and using it in self defence. Because i can't see any . If a person want's to own a gun, they then apply for the permit and comply with the regulations . If a person aquires an illegal firearm , simply handling the object becomes a crime . having it in a public place is a crime and discharging the unit is also a crime . You've commited offences before you've been in a position to fear for your life . So how would someone get away with that .
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Post by spot »

Jesse, you've drifted into write-only mode. You're not hearing us.
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Post by koan »

I think a key factor to self defense is that a person is only permitted to damage another person to the least extent required to procure their own safety. If the attacker can be subdued without causing death then to cause death is excessive force. So if a person could have managed to escape by clubbing someone with a nearby tire iron by chooses to pull their gun instead then it is not purely self defense.

As an aside, carrying a gun around with the idea that one might get the chance to use it is hardly the actions of a person with best intentions.
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Post by Nomad »

koan;524248 wrote: I think a key factor to self defense is that a person is only permitted to damage another person to the least extent required to procure their own safety. If the attacker can be subdued without causing death then to cause death is excessive force. So if a person could have managed to escape by clubbing someone with a nearby tire iron by chooses to pull their gun instead then it is not purely self defense.



As an aside, carrying a gun around with the idea that one might get the chance to use it is hardly the actions of a person with best intentions.




I took most of these conversations as implying the right to protect yourself and your family in the home from an intruder. Thats where I would assume most of us would find ourselves brandishing a weapon. If an intruder appears in your bedroom in the dark of night theres no question the homeowner would have the moral and legal right to use deadly force. I cant imagine a scenario in which an investigating officer would make an issue of where the intruder was shot on his person.

Another question might be how willing was the intruder to sacrifice his life for his wants ?
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Post by cars »

koan;524248 wrote: I think a key factor to self defense is that a person is only permitted to damage another person to the least extent required to procure their own safety. If the attacker can be subdued without causing death then to cause death is excessive force. So if a person could have managed to escape by clubbing someone with a nearby tire iron by chooses to pull their gun instead then it is not purely self defense.



As an aside, carrying a gun around with the idea that one might get the chance to use it is hardly the actions of a person with best intentions.


Don't know how it works in UK, but here in USA, if a "victim" was lucky enough to somehow "club their assaliant" and render them unconsious, then most likely as crazy as it sounds the assaliant then turns it around and sometimes "sues" the victim for bodily harm!!! Same thing is very likely if the "victim" had a gun, (for whatever reason) & used that gun to only "wound" the assaliant!
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Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

Two months ago my friends son was sentenced to seven years for having an illegal firearm and discharging it in a public place . The stupid little twat got it out and started waving it around . It went off accidently ..
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Post by koan »

Nomad;524257 wrote: I took most of these conversations as implying the right to protect yourself and your family in the home from an intruder.


I think most of the conversations were based on the same assumption. jesse was carrying it further to some concept that it was self defense if he believed he was in danger walking around the town. That's what I heard him saying.

It is interesting to look at how the law gets nit picky even in situations where most people would assume self defense was obvious but the law draws different lines.
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Post by spot »

cars;524260 wrote: Don't know how it works in UK, but here in USA, if a "victim" was lucky enough to somehow "club their assaliant" and render them unconsious, then most likely as crazy as it sounds the assaliant then turns it around and sometimes "sues" the victim for bodily harm!!! Same thing is very likely if the "victim" had a gun, (for whatever reason) & used that gun to only "wound" the assaliant!
In the UK it would depend entirely on whether the "victim" acted within the law or not. Definitely if he acted outside it then he would be open to such a civil claim.

Whether it would succeed in court is another matter. The earlier mentioned case of Tony Martin, for example, resulted in just such an attempted action by the survivor but "the action was later voluntarily dropped after many public figures questioned the moral (if not legal) validity of his claim".
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Post by BabyRider »

Nomad;524257 wrote: I took most of these conversations as implying the right to protect yourself and your family in the home from an intruder. Thats where I would assume most of us would find ourselves brandishing a weapon. If an intruder appears in your bedroom in the dark of night theres no question the homeowner would have the moral and legal right to use deadly force. I cant imagine a scenario in which an investigating officer would make an issue of where the intruder was shot on his person.

Another question might be how willing was the intruder to sacrifice his life for his wants ?
Unfortunately, that's not entirely accurate. Here in Michigan, we have a CCW law, but we have no self defense law. People with the perfect right to defend their home and family have killed intruders and been held accountable. The ideal places to live to avoid such insanity is Georgia, Florida, Alaska, etc. States where the fuzz does not question your judgement in protecting your family and yourself.
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Post by CARLA »

Just make sure if you wound and intruder in the US that he stays in the house when you wound him or he isn't an intruder anymore. He is then fleeing the scene and charges can be filed against you.

If you wound the intruder with an illegal gun you can almost bet charges will be filed against you for having an illegal weapon. All guns in the US are suppose to be registered or they are illegal period.

Unless you have that gun under you pillow when the intruder is in your home standing at the end of your bed and then shooting him/her. It most likely won't do you a damn bit of good you won't have time to react, and if you do it will most likely be use to kill you, not the intruder. :thinking: Just my opinions not the opinions of anyone else.
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Post by Nomad »

Diuretic;524267 wrote: On the bolded section - that's the point, that is exactly the major fact in issue. In my jurisdiction at least no-one can ever make that claim, it will always be tested either by a prosecuting authority or by a jury.




As it should be examined hoping they keep in mind what their very own reaction might be in the same situation with a wife by their side and children down the hall. Or for that matter just their own life.
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Post by BabyRider »

CARLA;524286 wrote: Just make sure if you wound and intruder in the US that he stays in the house when you wound him or he isn't an intruder anymore. He is then fleeing the scene and charges can be filed against you.


Carla, this also depends on the state. Several states have laws in place that if an intruder is on your property, be it in your house, your barn, or anywhere that you own that he does not belong, the use of deadly force is an acceptable action.
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Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


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Post by Nomad »

koan;524271 wrote: I think most of the conversations were based on the same assumption. jesse was carrying it further to some concept that it was self defense if he believed he was in danger walking around the town. That's what I heard him saying.



It is interesting to look at how the law gets nit picky even in situations where most people would assume self defense was obvious but the law draws different lines.


If you ever find yourself in the immediate need of making a life or death decision I wonder if the law enters your mind. Whats more important than protecting your family ?
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Post by koan »

Nomad;524299 wrote: If you ever find yourself in the immediate need of making a life or death decision I wonder if the law enters your mind. Whats more important than protecting your family ?


I've said from the beginning that I am likely to shoot someone if I have a gun and that is why I don't ever want one.
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Post by CARLA »

Nomad I can tell you the law never enters your mind period.

Your correct BR it is different by state. But once the intruder is wounded or killed outside your house it then becomes more complicated legally.

[quoOTE]If you ever find yourself in the immediate need of making a life or death decision I wonder if the law enters your mind. Whats more important than protecting your family ?[/QUOTE]
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Post by BabyRider »

spot;524273 wrote: Whether it would succeed in court is another matter. The earlier mentioned case of Tony Martin, for example, resulted in just such an attempted action by the survivor but "the action was later voluntarily dropped after many public figures questioned the moral (if not legal) validity of his claim".
I'd like to hear more about that case, Spot. Do you have somewhere for me to look?
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Post by spot »

BabyRider;524319 wrote: I'd like to hear more about that case, Spot. Do you have somewhere for me to look?
Yep... there's a link to the wikipedia article I was thinking of on http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=69 and it's one of the odder English cases of the last ten years. It got a lot of raised voices and controversy as it was happening, all the way through.
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Post by BabyRider »

spot;524323 wrote: Yep... there's a link to the wikipedia article I was thinking of on http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=69 and it's one of the odder English cases of the last ten years. It got a lot of raised voices and controversy as it was happening, all the way through.
Thanks spot!

It makes a person wonder how a man with the kind of psychological problems they speak of ever gets a gun in his possession.
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Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


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Post by spot »

BabyRider;524329 wrote: Thanks spot!

It makes a person wonder how a man with the kind of psychological problems they speak of ever gets a gun in his possession.
He was a farmer, BR. They're guaranteed to have both in England.
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Post by BabyRider »

spot;524331 wrote: He was a farmer, BR. They're guaranteed to have both in England.
Hey, I have a hard enough time keeping track of all the damn rules here, I sure can't keep track of them across the friggin' pond! :yh_wink
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Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


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Post by K.Snyder »

koan;524042 wrote: That was a great post, Magenta.



Snyder. Can we assume that the s*** being blown away is not a human being? I'd still not brag. Even if it was a milk jug I blasted.


Anyone can assume what they want...I don't refer to human beings as s***, and anyone who does has some serious issues.
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Post by Nomad »

koan;524304 wrote: I've said from the beginning that I am likely to shoot someone if I have a gun and that is why I don't ever want one.




So you would offer your last breathe to an intruder who only wants your cash and jewelry but wont leave a trace behind for fear of being identified ?

You would give your life for this ?

And if your daughter God forbid were in danger ?
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Post by K.Snyder »

Diuretic;524048 wrote: There was a time when I was working in a small opal-mining township when I had to buy my own firearm for self-defence (long story). I bought a pump-action shotgun. I tried out various types of shot and with a couple of my colleagues (who were in the same boat at the time) to try out our newly acquired weaponry - they had other weapons. I basically blew up a dead tree with a range of slugs including solid shot. It was quite cathartic and it was, for some reason, fun. When the reason for our needing to be tooled up was over I sold the shotgun because I didn't need it any longer. But I still remember how that dead tree (okay it was a small one) was reduced to almost nothing in a relatively brief time.

I like it every time I go on the range. I don't own a personal weapon any longer (I used to have a Colt Diamondback) but I have to qualify and it's fun both on the inside and outside ranges shooting in different circumstances.


Ive shot a .45 and while it's cool, I wasn't ecstatic about it...I thought it was rather weak and puny...

When I shot a 12 gauge shotgun, the kick is truly intimidating, but that's not my sort of thing either because I found I couldn't really aim well with it...

I loved shooting my 30-30 rifle...not very much kick, and it was extremely accurate within a couple hundred yards...

But I would love to have an M-16...I would be unloading that thing all the time...
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Post by koan »

Nomad;524363 wrote: So you would offer your last breathe to an intruder who only wants your cash and jewelry but wont leave a trace behind for fear of being identified ?

You would give your life for this ?

And if your daughter God forbid were in danger ?


If all the intruder wanted was my cash and jewelry I'd help them load it up.

I seriously believe that an intruder is more likely to shoot you if you pose a threat to them then if you just let them take what they want.

My daughter's safety is the one thing that could push me to do what I would otherwise not.
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Post by Nomad »

[quote=koan;524397]If all the intruder wanted was my cash and jewelry I'd help them load it up.



I seriously believe that an intruder is more likely to shoot you if you pose a threat to them then if you just let them take what they want.




You might want to pick up any given Sunday paper in any given city in any given land and read through the crimes section. This is a naive statement that could cost you your life one day. If I have to Ill compile as many instances as you need to prove otherwise.





My daughter's safety is the one thing that could push me to do what I would otherwise not.




Then were on the same page now.
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Post by koan »

Nomad;524406 wrote:

You might want to pick up any given Sunday paper in any given city in any given land and read through the crimes section. This is a naive statement that could cost you your life one day. If I have to Ill compile as many instances as you need to prove otherwise.




Compile away but I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Post by Nomad »

koan;524412 wrote: Compile away but I think we'll have to agree to disagree.




My daughter's safety is the one thing that could push me to do what I would otherwise not.





Disagree on what ? We have identical ideas.
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Post by koan »

Nomad;524422 wrote: My daughter's safety is the one thing that could push me to do what I would otherwise not.





Disagree on what ? We have identical ideas.


I disagree that having a gun would result in her safety.
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Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

LC 2007;523893 wrote: i can understand some peoples' aversion to guns. however, as a police officer i have a different outlook, only for myself. it's a tool of the trade. however, if we have to shoot someone in the line of duty we are required to visit a psychiatrist as a matter of course. i think that's wise.


Hey where did LC go .
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Post by Nomad »

koan;524451 wrote: I disagree that having a gun would result in her safety.




What would then ?

If an intruder means to harm your child how will you protect her ?

You do have a plan right ?

And isnt being able to protect yourself in the best interest of your child/family ?
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Post by Nomad »

pantsonfire321@aol.com;524459 wrote: Hey where did LC go .


You should start a welcome back thread. :D :p
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Post by Nomad »

Novelty;524477 wrote: It's a dark place to be when you only feel safe with a gun,




Really deep caves are dark too. I think too often we overlook this.
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