Wind Farms

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Okie
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Post by Okie »

I dont know why I just recalled but some time ago I got a letter from my electric company informing me that now I could buy part or all of my electric power from a wind farm. The percent I could choose to buy from the wind farm would cost about double what I pay now. I pay about $135.00 USD every month. I am on averaging. I hear the senators taling about alternative energy and I am for clean power but it strikes me that the government should get in on the act and not be up to local power companies. I think most people whould not choose to pay double for power if they did not have to knowing that others would buy power from burning coal or gas and buying it cheaper. It seems to me the federal should make the energy companies add the cost of all power they make and average it. Maybe make them use wind for a certain percent. At least if all customers have to pay the same it would be better. As it is each state has companies that produce power and even here there is rural power companies and there is city power grids. Seems it all should be coordinated.
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Bill Sikes
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Post by Bill Sikes »

Okie;467458 wrote: I dont know why I just recalled but some time ago I got a letter from my electric company informing me that now I could buy part or all of my electric power from a wind farm. The percent I could choose to buy from the wind farm would cost about double what I pay now. I pay about $135.00 USD every month. I am on averaging. I hear the senators taling about alternative energy and I am for clean power but it strikes me that the government should get in on the act and not be up to local power companies. I think most people whould not choose to pay double for power if they did not have to knowing that others would buy power from burning coal or gas and buying it cheaper. It seems to me the federal should make the energy companies add the cost of all power they make and average it. Maybe make them use wind for a certain percent. At least if all customers have to pay the same it would be better. As it is each state has companies that produce power and even here there is rural power companies and there is city power grids. Seems it all should be coordinated.


That is a lot of electric to use! I don't particularly agree with wind generation of

electricity - can't you reduce usage?
booradley
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Post by booradley »

do you mind me asking why you don't particularly agree with wind generation for electricity, Bill? Do you know something I don't?

I'm keen on renewable energy and I'd quite happily have a wind turbine in my garden if I could...I am a bit of a skinflint though:yh_tong2
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Bill Sikes
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Post by Bill Sikes »

booradley;467476 wrote: do you mind me asking why you don't particularly agree with wind generation for electricity, Bill? Do you know something I don't?

I'm keen on renewable energy and I'd quite happily have a wind turbine in my garden if I could...I am a bit of a skinflint though yh_tong2


Sorry, I'm not totally against it, a wind turbine in the garden would be a Good

Thing IMO. I am against the large wind farms that are springing up all over the

UK and a) blighting the landscape and b) producing heavily-subsidised electric

that doesn't have particularly "green" credentials. B&Q are apparently selling

"windmills" for power generation. Once economies of scale are bought into play

the price should drop.

Have you noticed the proliferation of solar celled traffic equipment, and so on?

That seems like a small step in the right direction, too.
suncrafter
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Post by suncrafter »

Bill Sikes;467503 wrote: Have you noticed the proliferation of solar celled traffic equipment, and so on?

That seems like a small step in the right direction, too.


I've noticed that. I wonder if that is cheaper - power wise or cheaper - labor wise. Or maybe both?
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Elvira
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Post by Elvira »

I actually think that the wind farms are a lesser blot on the landscape than the nasty polluting, black smoke producing energy plants!

In fact, when we drive down to Cornwall, I love the majestic sight of the silent wind turbines!
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Bill Sikes
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Post by Bill Sikes »

Elvira;522000 wrote: I actually think that the wind farms are a lesser blot on the landscape than the nasty polluting, black smoke producing energy plants!

In fact, when we drive down to Cornwall, I love the majestic sight of the silent wind turbines!


Hm. To make the same energy as a conventional power station (what black

smoke?) would need somewhere between about 60 and 160 wind farms,

all operating at peak output all the time (which is clearly not possible!).

That IMO is around 60 to 160 too many! They're scarcely majestic, nor

silent, and I really do not want any more of Cornwall, or anywhere else,

blighted with these things, let alone entirely covered with them!
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Elvira
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Post by Elvira »

Bill Sikes;522004 wrote: They're scarcely majestic, nor

silent, and I really do not want any more of Cornwall, or anywhere else,

blighted with these things, let alone entirely covered with them!


As an Arts graduate, I guess my mindset is a little different from yours. I clearly see beauty and majesty where you do not.

In your statement above, you imply that I am wrong, whereas in reality, very simply, our opinions differ.

As for not wanting any more of them around, I think that you may be disappointed. But perhaps you could assuage your displeasure by recognising that others may see beauty in them, and want to protect the environment in the longer term. :)
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spot
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Post by spot »

Elvira;522000 wrote: I actually think that the wind farms are a lesser blot on the landscape than the nasty polluting, black smoke producing energy plants!

In fact, when we drive down to Cornwall, I love the majestic sight of the silent wind turbines!Where on earth do you find "black smoke producing energy plants" in the UK?

Every wind turbine I ever stood within two hundred yards of made a startling amount of noise if it was operating. They're silent only when they don't turn.
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Elvira
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Post by Elvira »

spot;522017 wrote: Where on earth do you find "black smoke producing energy plants" in the UK?

Every wind turbine I ever stood within two hundred yards of made a startling amount of noise if it was operating. They're silent only when they don't turn.


OK - if we're all determined to be pedants, I'm happy to play along. Oil is a source of energy, is it not? In which case, I would say that you could find a plant that has produced black smoke in hemel hempstead! :wah: and furthermore :-5

I've been pretty close to a wind turbine or 40 in Cornwall, and I thought they were fairly silent. (they were in operation too!) Maybe the noise of the traffic drowned it out? :)
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spot
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Post by spot »

Elvira;522019 wrote: OK - if we're all determined to be pedants, I'm happy to play along. Oil is a source of energy, is it not? In which case, I would say that you could find a plant that has produced black smoke in hemel hempstead! :wah: They don't put out black smoke, ever. They have amazingly effective filters for particulates. They even capture sulphur emissions these days.
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abbey
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Post by abbey »

Elvira;522000 wrote: I actually think that the wind farms are a lesser blot on the landscape than the nasty polluting, black smoke producing energy plants!



In fact, when we drive down to Cornwall, I love the majestic sight of the silent wind turbines!I have some wonderful memories tramping over Scout Moore, unfortunately the days are numbered as a wind farms going up.

I just can't imagine a wind farm on those majestic moors!



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spot
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Post by spot »

abbey;522122 wrote: I have some wonderful memories tramping over Scout Moore, unfortunately the days are numbered as a wind farms going up.

I just can't imagine a wind farm on those majestic moors!Many a time, from when I was at school onward, I spent days and nights on the Brecon Beacons with a map and compass, and I tried to pass some of those skills on to my children eventually. The presence of three turbines standing like Golgotha on the horizon visible from fifteen miles away tended to short-cut their orienteering lessons. There's far too few places like the Beacons left already without damaging yet more of them. We got to the point where I'd only take them up there in winter fog, I couldn't stomach what they'd done to the view.
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abbey
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Post by abbey »

If that's progress Spot, they can stuff it!

I can stand on top of Knowl Hill and see right over the Penines, and Lancashire.

What a breathtaking sight, soon to be no more. :-1
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spot
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Post by spot »

I can't see a photo of the three at the Brecon end of the range but this is a view of the Western boundary of the National Park from three miles away, the buggers. Why they can't site them over the horizon offshore I don't know, there's plenty of room in the North Sea still. A few square miles of generators driven by the tidal rush between Anglesey or some of the Scottish islands and the mainland would be invisible as well, and that's a lot of fast water that nobody's going to pine over.

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abbey
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Post by abbey »

spot;522150 wrote: I can't see a photo of the three at the Brecon end of the range but this is a view of the Western boundary of the National Park from three miles away, the buggers. Why they can't site them over the horizon offshore I don't know, there's plenty of room in the North Sea still. A few square miles of generators driven by the tidal rush between Anglesey or some of the Scottish islands and the mainland would be invisible as well, and that's a lot of fast water that nobody's going to pine over.
What an awful sight, how very, very sad.

And what about the habitat, they dont give a stuff for the animals and insects that live on the land that they plunder.
l.plates
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Post by l.plates »

They are enormous noisey and ugly, bird carcasses found underneath them, the flikering from the blades when the sun shines is like living next too a strobe light.

I know I live near one of these farms.

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Bill Sikes
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Post by Bill Sikes »

abbey;522158 wrote: What an awful sight, how very, very sad.


"New industrial landscape". Frightful. There's be an outcry if planning consent for

some large agricultural sheds, or a non-polluting factory, was sought, but not

for these poxy things, with their pseudo-green credentials...
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spot
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Post by spot »

Elvira;522016 wrote: In your statement above, you imply that I am wrong, whereas in reality, very simply, our opinions differ.Regarding art and beauty you're correct by definition. As far as "silent" goes, though, these things are measurable and you're not right at all.

On a windy day the sound of the wind itself both masks and can carry away the wind turbine noise. With a steady quiet breeze, though, out in the countryside, the sound of the blades thwarts any attempt to listen to background nature, and I speak from experience.

"Today, an operating wind farm at a distance of 750 to 1,000 feet is no noisier than a kitchen

refrigerator" is a somewhat badly worded description which even so carries a fair indication of what it's like (from a kilometer downwind, having been there and tried) - being in a room with a fridge humming in the background. The quote's from an industry handout at http://www.awea.org/pubs/factsheets/WE_Noise.pdf
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Explorer the eighth
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Post by Explorer the eighth »

I only like the idea of wind farms in the sea, probably built on the top of old oil rigs or something similar. They don't produce enough power to have them scattered all over the countryside apparently just to please the green lobby (although I'm not against the green lobby pressing their case in those situations where it is right to do so). I support the nuclear lobby, in this particular case, now that nuclear power stations are safer and more efficient than they used to be. That's the best option to supply most of any country's needs these days. For us in Britain, we don't want to be hostages to Russia's gas supplies.
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Uncle Fester
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Post by Uncle Fester »

I am one of those strange people who would like to see more Nuclear Power stations come on line , no pollution






IF YOU CAN'T SAY GOOD ABOUT SOME ONE , KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT





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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Uncle Fester;575777 wrote: I am one of those strange people who would like to see more Nuclear Power stations come on line , no pollution


An essential move in my opinion
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Bill Sikes
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Post by Bill Sikes »

Bryn Mawr;575986 wrote: An essential move in my opinion


It would be very nice to see more investigations into the "low tech" ideas about

nuclear power generation. Certainly a better option than "wind farms", which are

worth as much as a fart in a thunderstorm.
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Bill Sikes;576033 wrote: It would be very nice to see more investigations into the "low tech" ideas about

nuclear power generation. Certainly a better option than "wind farms", which are

worth as much as a fart in a thunderstorm.


Wind farms are fine in their place but cannot be relied upon when you're looking at a high percentage of our power needs.

Underlying all of the opertunistic sources there must be at least one source that can be guaranteed and that can no longer be based on fossil fuels.
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Bill Sikes
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Post by Bill Sikes »

Soberano;576043 wrote: Damned things are a blot on the landscape. We have enough of the ugly buggers down here.


There are a number of the things in Cornwall, too. B horrible.
samanthauk23
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Post by samanthauk23 »

*shudder* those things give me panic attacks.... (wind farms, not erections....)
SlipStream
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Post by SlipStream »

why don't the make wind farms blend in more with the landscape?
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Chookie
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Post by Chookie »

Could anyone make something like this blend in?





There are 36 of these damn things, purportedly producing 72 MW of electricity. They don't. On a good day (meaning the wind is blowing at no less than 15 mph and no more than 50mph), it will produce something in the region of 60MW. At windspeeds under 15mph or over 50mph, it will not operate.

The turbine blades are noisy, the gearing within the turbines is noisy, the infrastructure (roads etc) for these farms are environmental disasters, they have a disastrous effect on the local wildlife.

Having said this, I do believe the theory behind the wind turbine, I just do not think this is the correct way to utilise it.
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911
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Post by 911 »

You guys don't have tornados?

What happens to wind farms when a tornado comes through and knocks them all down? Is there a reserve of power somewhere?

We don't have any around here and I don't know that much about them. From what y'all have said, I don't think I want one.

Now windmills, I like, but probably not every 1/4 mile.
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Bill Sikes
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Post by Bill Sikes »

Chookie;604185 wrote: Could anyone make something like this blend in?




That is a bloody good reason for mis-using about two boxes of blasting gelatine.
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Bill Sikes
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Post by Bill Sikes »

911;604206 wrote: You guys don't have tornados?


No - or very, very rarely, and tiny with it.
911
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Post by 911 »

Bill Sikes;604237 wrote: No - or very, very rarely, and tiny with it.


Wow, must be nice.

I wonder why?
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SlipStream
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Post by SlipStream »

lowcation!
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spot
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Post by spot »

The UK government came out with a surprising target today, finally, and it's not at all what I expected.

The UK Energy Secretary, John Hutton told a European energy industry conference in Berlin there would have to be a switch to low-carbon energy production to combat the threat of climate change. "But if we could manage to achieve this, by 2020 enough electricity could be generated off our shores to power the equivalent of all of the UK's homes," he told a European energy industry conference in Berlin. "This could be a major contribution towards meeting the EU's target of 20% energy from renewable sources by 2020". What he's announced is a target of 7000 new turbines in the next 12 years, taking renewables energy production capacity to 33 GigaWatts.

The trouble with going to such a high sporadic figure is that electricity consumption isn't like a bank account. The consumer burns what the generator produces each second. If the winds drop for a day the consumer still wants to burn what he was intending to burn. Either there's an electricity storage system to go alongside the wind farms or the UK is going to need to keep the full count of fossil fuel or nuclear generating stations alongside the wind farms and just turn down their production when the wind farms are online. In other words, we have to build an entire national generating system twice over, once for windy days and once for non-windy, just so we can set half the fossil fuel generators to idle when the wind farms can feed the National Grid. That's a rather bigger investment in idle plant than the government's commented on today.

We do actually have one battery in the National Grid, it's called the Dinorwic reservoir and it saves keeping one generating station fired up on hot standby. I don't think we could build many more like that and they don't feed the grid for day after day, Dinorwic goes flat in minutes when it's called on.
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gmc
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Post by gmc »

posted by spot

We do actually have one battery in the National Grid, it's called the Dinorwic reservoir and it saves keeping one generating station fired up on hot standby. I don't think we could build many more like that and they don't feed the grid for day after day, Dinorwic goes flat in minutes when it's called on.

Actually it's not the only one nor was it the first.

http://www.scotland.org/about/entertain ... achan.html

The first hydro electric scheme was built in 1899, hydro electric is the single biggest producer of electricity in scotland.

http://www.rls.org.uk/database/record.p ... -001-499-L
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spot
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Post by spot »

Oh - yes, there's hydro-electric. That's not what I meant by battery. Dinorwic's rechargeable, it pump-fills the top reservoir to mop up bits of overcapacity at night and then streams it back to the low reservoir when there's an abrupt peak moment during the day which the grid would otherwise need a hot standby to cover. What I really meant was that without batteries you can't store the turbine output until it's needed, and batteries don't last long feeding the grid.
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Chookie
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Post by Chookie »

Wind farms will never meet the needs of the consumers. Wind turbines alone are not the most efficient way. To me, a mixture of solar panels, water power:-hydro- electric and water turbines, waterwheels (if there is enough flow pressure), wave energy, geo-thermal energy, biomass, domestic sized wind turbines and, yes, wind farms makes much more sense than using one technology.
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