ANTI - WAR Protester

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:03 pm

Design Gal

I gave you a break once - don't start **** with me and this is not the thread to post your sarcasm.

Patsy

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:21 pm

Scrat;515424 wrote: I live about 40 miles from Ft Lewis in Washington state. There is a special community here in Kent for the elderly and disabled (read low-rent district) and Ballys is right next to it.

Part of this community is essentially outsourced by the VA. It pays the rent of a lot of veterans who are "recovering" from their wounds. I used to see some of them at Ballys. I don't go in the weekdays/workdays anymore, only mornings or evenings.

That body armor is very good. It protects the trunk and vital organs but unfortunately not the limbs/face. I am not going into detail but it will suffice to say a lot of these wounded men will never have anything like a normal life.

I know Bush never sees this, I know the rest of the politicos rarely if ever do. Ithink we need a law that says that when we go to war the children of the politicos must go to.

Joseph Stalins son died in the Pripyat marshes nw of Gomel, a noble act for a good reason.
How could you possibly know what he sees and doesn't see? You only have your opinions, filtered through extreme prejudice against America and Americans. In short, you know nothing.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:29 pm

Patsy Warnick;515454 wrote: Babyrider

I was listening - your wrong

Verbatim quote: Damn straight - I'd never buy one, this kind of garbage pisses me off.

Well then let me clarify for the weak minded: HIS GARBAGE pisses me off and is considered a slap in the face to our servicemen, and that comes right from one of those servicemen.

And you are STILL not listening, and since it's apparent you never will and don't care, I'm done with your ignorance.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:38 pm

Scrat;515507 wrote: And not with greedy, self centered, narcissitic people like you around.
:wah:

Where's your evidence that I'm any of those adjectives?

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:25 pm

Babyrider

Why is ones opinion ignorant ? Because one doesn't agree with you?

Why do you have to throw mud around trying to get your point across? This is a forum with several opinions, right,wrong,or otherwise. If you don't agree thats one thing - can't handle ones opinion - don't read this thread.

I don't consider anyone here ignorant due to their opinion, and I don't appreciate being called your immature labels. Is this how you handle all discussions, with mud?

I'm trying to be polite.

Patsy

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:03 pm

Patsy Warnick;515478 wrote: Design Gal

I gave you a break once - don't start **** with me and this is not the thread to post your sarcasm.

Patsy

Or what? Don't threaten me. And I dont need your "breaks". I was making a joke. Dont be a jerk.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:01 pm

I'm always amazed at these "discussions". You would think the world is full of military planners with access to the most classified information. People decide if they will support the President or not based on what they hear and whether or not it sounds good to them. I give the president my support because he is the President and he has access to information that I can't even hope to see. Very smart people who have devoted their lives to understanding and planning these things are advising him, not me and not anyone posting here that I'm aware of. I suspect that if we could all know what those who are really in the know do, there wouldn't be so many so willing to run away.

People say the President is waging this war for some personal reason...like what...26% approval ratings? If it was for personal reasons he would stick his finger in the air every morning and do what the majority want him to do. Right Bubba?

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:46 pm

CLINT:

We'll know we have victory when (not a complete list):

People stop bombing themselves and everyone around them no matter if they are innocent or not just because things aren't going thier way.

It's okay to ask someone to join you in your faith but it isn't okay to demand they do or die.

You can get on an airplane and only wonder if it will have a mechanical failure.

The people of Iraq are sharing in its wealth.

Iraq is sharing its wealth with the world.

We can leave and know that there won't be the slaughter that occured when we left Vietnam.

The government of Iraq is able to maintain order (peace is an individual state of mind)

Most of the above is happening and we can see the rest will follow.

+++++++++++++++ I'll admit I'm nearly speechless at this statement. How on EARTH do you expect that anyone can accomplish these things when the world of terrorist/fundamental Islam keeps replicating itself daily?

You might hope we can get on an airplane safely if WE have high-tech security in place, but the troops dying in Iraq won't guarantee that. Those first two statements are so outside the realm of our powers that I'm amazed you consider them a possibility, as are the last.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:35 am

Scrat;516539 wrote: I'm going to be sick.Then turn off your 'puter and go to bed.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:10 pm

As an outsider I find this discussion puzzling. In the UK no one would dare accuse someone opposed to the war as not supporting our troops for the simple reason they would get very short shrift indeed. (Don't be so Stupid is one of the politer responses ) It's seen as a not so subtle attempt to curb dissent along with the other dafty -you don't support the war yopu must support the terrorists. People here are angry that british troops are involved in a war started under false pretences.

If you support your troops why aren't you angry at the politicians that sent them in to battle in the first place in to a country that hadn't attacked you and who lied in order to get your support? Why do so many still believe those lies? Is it because you can't believe that a president is capable of abusing his position to that extent?

I watch CNN occasionally and they sometimes have a feature about fallen heroes. If the UK govt tried to make political capital out of the death of a soldier like that there would be lynch mobs waithing for them. There heroism makes the devious natire of the politicians even more obscene. Soldiers may be there to serve but not as cannon fodder for politicians to play with anbd you don't allow soldiers to keep getting killed because a politician is afraid to admit making a mistake.

posted by clint

I didn't set foot on U.S. soil for three straight years (67-70). I didn't know what the likes of this guy selling T shirts and Scrat were doing back home. I thought I was fighting for my country like my father had. When I returned I was angry and I've been angry every since. You want to do that to another generation of men and women who volunteer to put their lives on the line. If you do, we will never be able to stand for anything again. Maybe that appeals to some but it sure doesn't appeal to me.

Don't know the truth of it but from what I can gather Bush wriggled out of going to vietnam. Does it not anger you that he is ready to send men to fight for his country when he would not go himself? What were you angry about? I'm not trying to wind you up I'm curious to hear your answer because i don't understand why your anger is directed at your fellow citizens not politicians.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:52 pm

GMC

I agree with you - I'm upset with the Politicians and they don't have their kids over there fighting. Then to announce to send over 20 thousands more over to fight - not their kids.??

Patsy

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:56 pm

GMC: "I'm curious to hear your answer because i don't understand why your anger is directed at your fellow citizens not politicians."

+++++++++++ Trust me on this one...most of us are not angry in the least at fellow citizens who criticize the administration! Bush began the general nastiness when he accused people against the war of being against the troops!

Don't forget that many of the people who actually voted for this man are now left with nowhere to put their anger...so they'll direct it toward anyone but themselves.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:45 pm

GMC,

Thank you for the spirit of decency in your post.

When the president committed to this action in Iraq he had the support of the politicians and the public (mostly). Those who are criticizing him now conveniently forget where they stood when this started. They now use their perfect hind sight to degrade the honest intent at the time. We are there now and some who opposed going in the beginning now find great pleasure in pointing it out at the expense of the effort.

As I have stated, war isn’t like a sporting event. When you move in and destabilize a country you can’t just decide to remove your support when the home team isn’t doing well. More than half the battle against this enemy is public opinion and the will to finish. If the enemy can demoralize the “fans, the team will lose¦guaranteed. In this war each of us is as valuable as a soldier. 12th man doesn’t go anywhere near far enough in explaining how important it is. Remove your support and you have removed a soldier from the team.

Politicians don’t have my respect on a personal level but this isn’t personal and the enemy is worse than any politician. If I’m choosing sides, I’ll side with the politician and use mouthwash later.

When I came home from Vietnam I came home to people who hated me because I wore the uniform of my country. The politicians had listened to those who had decided the effort wasn’t worth winning. All of those who died died for nothing. That made me angry then and it still makes me angry. To make things worse we pulled out in a way that cost untold loss of life. We just walked away from those people who depended on us and let them be slaughtered. I gave three years of my life and a lot more for nothing. But what we did to them makes me forget about that.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:49 pm

"When I came home from Vietnam I came home to people who hated me because I wore the uniform of my country. The politicians had listened to those who had decided the effort wasn’t worth winning. All of those who died died for nothing. That made me angry then and it still makes me angry. To make things worse we pulled out in a way that cost untold loss of life. We just walked away from those people who depended on us and let them be slaughtered. I gave three years of my life and a lot more for nothing. But what we did to them makes me forget about that."

+++++++++++ I saw this happen and I remember. It was a dreadful reaction on the public's part and I don't think it'll ever be repeated! My father died in military service...nobody knows better than I what a sacrifice that is! Every day, reading the names of those who were killed yesterday, my heart breaks and my resolve to bring the troops home stiffens. THEY ARE DYING "FOR NOTHING!"

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:26 pm

I hear and read about Dick Cheney’s ulterior motives. I have yet to see any proof. People so dislike him they fabricate things and hang them on him as though there was a truck load of proof and a trial had already been held.

If the invasion of Iraq was all about oil and I don’t think it was, would it be illegitimate if it was to preserve the world’s oil supply? I would say no but there are others who would say it was essential.

I’m not a military planner so I don’t know any more than anyone else about this but I have an idea as to why we went in. My idea is as valid as those who’s position it is that we went in for ill gain. We both hypothesize.

Right now we are looking at a very aggressive Iran. My guess is those in the know have seen it coming for many years. Syria has been a bad actor for a long time as well. The whole region’s population is Islamic and even though a small percent of them are radical it represents a large number of people. They want the west destroyed. It isn’t about oil to them, it is about religion. They are the ones we are at war with. Iraq is strategically located to provide a base for us to operate from and deal with a problem that will follow us home if we don’t keep it occupied there.

Extreme Muslims follow the teachings of Mohamed. They believe Mohamed teaches them to deal with their closest enemy first, then their worst enemy and after that the others until there is no one left but those who have converted to their brand of Islam. They will joyfully kill other less extreme Muslims. If we base ourselves where we are the closest enemy at all times, they won’t be free to concentrate their efforts on their worst enemy and begin working their way down the list of priorities.

If my idea is correct it certainly wouldn't be something that could be made public as the purpose for being there.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:41 pm

Scrat

Your right about the US has to show strength,be independent so other countries can't pull puppet strings.

In Pres. Bush's speech Wednesday - he went into detail about our troops going into Baghdad - he just left out drawing a map. Insurgants will just go under ground now since they know of Bush's plan.

Did you / anyone else notice that?

Remember when Geraldo drew a map in the dirt on location? I was waiting for Bush to show a map.

I don't think this war is all about oil - right now I'm not sure the purpose of it. And we have few allies - so everyones confused.

I know I have relatives over there and it scares the hell out of me.

Patsy

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:07 pm

Complicated but can be done

at what expense?

Patsy

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:54 am

Just for the record. Scrat's rants and the way he uses them, totally invalidate what he says in them. As far as I'm concerned though, he has totally destroyed yet another thread that could have been a construtive give and take. Mission accomplished Scrat.

ShawnG · Post by **ShawnG** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:38 am

I'll probably regret wading into this one...but here goes.

In 2003 I was one of the very fervent opponents of this action, I posted in message boards, signed petitions etc... I was fairly sure that Iraq did have WMD's, I knew and understood all of the geopolitical implications such as the ongoing sanctions, our troops in Saudi etc... I was not opposed to getting rid of Saddam, I was opposed to taking the extremely large risk involved, to get rid of someone who was already for the most part contained. I will also add that I had similar mixed feelings when Clinton killed Iraqis for the same reason in 1998. So I was against this action from the start, and when the bombs started falling, I was fairly disgusted.

However that battle is long over. It annoys me when all I hear about this conflict is that we never should have gone there in the first place, and all of the supposed "reasons" that Bush did this. We are there, people. We are fighting a war, now. What we should be talking about is what to do next; and to be honest, there's no good options, so in essence we have to do something wrong to end the situation. Don't talk about the right way out, there isn't one at this point. We have two options, we can win and deal with the consequences, or we can lose and deal with the consequences.

And here they are:

1. Massive troop surge, generally be a complete bastard, and kill and overwhelm everyone in opposition, mop up afterwards, and install a strong democracy when the only people left are the moderates, and then leave.

Pro: Solves the problem, establishes a friendly country, disheartens the overall enemy, maintains the current world order.

Con: Will always be some pockets of insurgency, will damage American standing worldwide, we don't have the troops to pull it off, will hurt other world interests in the long term. Lose Arab street

2. Phased retreat, hand the ball to the Iraqi's and hope. Go home and refocus on finding that elusive Bin Laden Guy

Pro: allows us to focus on Al Queda, American combat deaths will stop. People around the world might not hate us as much as they do now.

Con: Iraqi's not likely to stop killing each other in droves, gives Al Queda a huge feather in their hat, will introduce a new, and more chaotic world order. Iran has more influence in the region.

Note that we are not doing either of these. the troop increase proposed by Bush is not sufficient to do anything, and even those who cry for the return of the troops fall silent when it comes time to actually consider doing it. So it's just going to drag on. What criminal charge are you going to level at Bush to Impeach him? What evidence is there? He's only guilty of being a moron, and unfortunately that's still constitutionally protected. The problem is that the Republicans can't allow us to lose, and the Democrats can't allow us to win. For purely political reasons. So we have mess, enjoy it, we're all part of the problem Warmongers, Peaceniks, Leftists, Rightwingers, moderates alike. We need to stop this and make a really bad decision really soon, or the cons on both of the options listed above will come true, and none of the pros.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:52 pm

My t- shirt arrived today, LOVE IT. Names are in alphabetical order - my husbands wearing his tomorrow to visit his Republican friends.

A flyer was inserted into my package - this web site sells several ideas on shirts and bumper stickers etc. here are some examples for sale

Gore for 2008 !!

Be nice to America or we'll bring Democracy to your country.

If you're not outraged - you're not paying attention.

Vietnam II, relive the tragedy - Now playing in selected Iraqi cities,dirested by

George Bush,starring people you love.

The problems we face will not be solved by the minds that created them.

www.CarryaBigSticker.com

Patsy

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:55 pm

I went to that site earlier Patsy, and I saw a lot of neat stuff- stuff that wasn't even that political but more environmental or harmony-inducing, like a simple sticker that just said "COEXIST." I will probably order some stuff.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:06 pm

That's me too, Scrat- you've heard that saying "When I have money I buy books. If there's anything left I buy food...?" Yep. :wah:

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:17 am

Yep, that's the problem with books, if you don't have a library. I'm boxing some up as we speak to pass onto my friend and she will then pass on what she doesn't want to keep. I can't think o fwhat it's called now butthere is a program where you leave your books in public places with a special sticker on it and it can be tracked by you...you get to watch where the book goes from reader to reader. Wish I could think of that program!

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:07 am

YES! That's it! Thanks Di!!