Harry :-6
I have absolutley no problem with what you have said. I only want to draw to your attention that there are many Christians who would disagree with some of your interpretations.
I accept what koan was hoping to accomplish by this thread and will try to assist.
However, they are BIG questions and will take time so you will have to bear with us.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Literal or Metaphor?
Literal or Metaphor?
koan :-6
I will start by saying that not all that is written is what has convinced people about the nature of Yeshua of Nazareth. For many folks it is based on the experiential reality of the Risen Lord. The experience is the final piece that puts the framework together. Not only is the the final piece but it is the basic tie that holds it all together. Without the experience all the reading etc. is but empty space.
Shalom
Ted :-6
I will start by saying that not all that is written is what has convinced people about the nature of Yeshua of Nazareth. For many folks it is based on the experiential reality of the Risen Lord. The experience is the final piece that puts the framework together. Not only is the the final piece but it is the basic tie that holds it all together. Without the experience all the reading etc. is but empty space.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Literal or Metaphor?
koan :-6
Most of the words attributed to Jesus in reference to his messiahsip come from the Gospel of John. Most scholars today believe that all those words in John are the words of the evangelist or writer put into the mouth of Jesus. John is thought to be the latest of all the gospels written. The author is very much is dispute. However, it is not taken lightly because it reflects what the early church had come to believe about Jesus. It is really the early developing traiditon of the Church. It is not believed that the evangelist ever knew Jesus except through history remembered and passed on and the oral traditions. This is not to say that they don't in one way or another reflect what Jesus taught and did.
If we are to understand what these words mean we must be aware of where they came from and how they came into being.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Most of the words attributed to Jesus in reference to his messiahsip come from the Gospel of John. Most scholars today believe that all those words in John are the words of the evangelist or writer put into the mouth of Jesus. John is thought to be the latest of all the gospels written. The author is very much is dispute. However, it is not taken lightly because it reflects what the early church had come to believe about Jesus. It is really the early developing traiditon of the Church. It is not believed that the evangelist ever knew Jesus except through history remembered and passed on and the oral traditions. This is not to say that they don't in one way or another reflect what Jesus taught and did.
If we are to understand what these words mean we must be aware of where they came from and how they came into being.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Literal or Metaphor?
Just thought of another one...
What do you think the Holy Grail really is? Of course you can say the cup that held Jesus' blood. But why was it so important to King Arthur? If you believe King Arthur stories. I think there are many possibilities for what this means as a symbol.
What do you think the Holy Grail really is? Of course you can say the cup that held Jesus' blood. But why was it so important to King Arthur? If you believe King Arthur stories. I think there are many possibilities for what this means as a symbol.
Literal or Metaphor?
Very interesting. Here are some other things from the bible that people don't like talking about. One at a time:
Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."
VS.
Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."
Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."
Has anyone seen Him and lived? Or not? It says both. Both statements can't be true.
Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."
VS.
Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."
Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."
Has anyone seen Him and lived? Or not? It says both. Both statements can't be true.
Literal or Metaphor?
So, generally, people opt for God's face never to have been seen?
If Moses received the Ten Commandments from God but wasn't really seeing God. What would that mean?
Also wondering:
Jesus says to "honour thy father and mother" (Matt. 15:4), but contradicts that when in Luke 14:26 he says "If any man comes to me and does not hate his father and mother...he cannot be my disciple". Also he says "Let the dead bury the dead" (Matt. 8:21-22) when a disciple asks leave due to the death of his father.
How can this be?
If Moses received the Ten Commandments from God but wasn't really seeing God. What would that mean?
Also wondering:
Jesus says to "honour thy father and mother" (Matt. 15:4), but contradicts that when in Luke 14:26 he says "If any man comes to me and does not hate his father and mother...he cannot be my disciple". Also he says "Let the dead bury the dead" (Matt. 8:21-22) when a disciple asks leave due to the death of his father.
How can this be?
Literal or Metaphor?
Also, in Mark 10:19 Jesus told a man to follow the Commandments. Yet one of those listed by Jesus was "defraud not," which isn't even an Old Testament commandment. If Jesus was the one that Moses saw on the mount, did Moses copy it down wrong or did Jesus forget what he had said?
Literal or Metaphor?
koan :-6
Those damned inconsistencies etc. LOL. In Matt we are told to love our paents.
Apparently in Luke 14 we are told to hate them.
It is more an emphasis on a particular point then on hatred. Jesus was expressing the committment that He required from his followers. It was not a commandment to hate but a comparison conderning committment that He was demanding.
In John 1:1-5 we read"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was wtih God, and the Word was God. He was in the =beginningwith God. All things cameinto being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was the life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in and the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it."
This is one of John's writings that was used to support the Idea that Jesus was God in the flesh. It was what John and the early church had come to believe about Jesus. It is John's statement and can be seen a midrashic. It was simply trying to emphasize the nature of Jesus.
As far as the other quotes go remember they are man's writing concerning his experience of the Divine; midrashic and metaphorical and not meant to be taken literallly.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Those damned inconsistencies etc. LOL. In Matt we are told to love our paents.
Apparently in Luke 14 we are told to hate them.
It is more an emphasis on a particular point then on hatred. Jesus was expressing the committment that He required from his followers. It was not a commandment to hate but a comparison conderning committment that He was demanding.
In John 1:1-5 we read"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was wtih God, and the Word was God. He was in the =beginningwith God. All things cameinto being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was the life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in and the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it."
This is one of John's writings that was used to support the Idea that Jesus was God in the flesh. It was what John and the early church had come to believe about Jesus. It is John's statement and can be seen a midrashic. It was simply trying to emphasize the nature of Jesus.
As far as the other quotes go remember they are man's writing concerning his experience of the Divine; midrashic and metaphorical and not meant to be taken literallly.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Literal or Metaphor?
I think a lot of the inconsistencies show that the midrashic view is the only logical one, but there are many who strongly believe it was written in plain language. Regardless, the inconsistencies and errors in the Bible do not mean that there is no "sense" in it. Kind of like throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Sorry, just left the Chicken Soup thread.
Still, I must laugh when we are told God is everywhere but he must come down to Earth to see the tower of Babel. It is in keeping with the misunderstanding of the people building the tower thinking they could reach Heaven with it 'cause the sky was a big dome over the Earth.
I was going to ask about the tower of Babel. God was so pissed he had to destroy us all with the flood. Then we are all getting along and he has to "come down" and confuse all the language. What a big meanie!!!!
Sorry, just left the Chicken Soup thread.
Still, I must laugh when we are told God is everywhere but he must come down to Earth to see the tower of Babel. It is in keeping with the misunderstanding of the people building the tower thinking they could reach Heaven with it 'cause the sky was a big dome over the Earth.
I was going to ask about the tower of Babel. God was so pissed he had to destroy us all with the flood. Then we are all getting along and he has to "come down" and confuse all the language. What a big meanie!!!!
Literal or Metaphor?
koan :-6
The Tower of Babel was actually just a means of trying to explain why there were so many diffeent languages in the world..
I'm alwarys amused by God asking Adam where he is hiding in the Garden of Eden! LOL
Shalom
Ted :-6
The Tower of Babel was actually just a means of trying to explain why there were so many diffeent languages in the world..
I'm alwarys amused by God asking Adam where he is hiding in the Garden of Eden! LOL
Shalom
Ted :-6
Literal or Metaphor?
Ted wrote:
I'm alwarys amused by God asking Adam where he is hiding in the Garden of Eden! LOL
Shalom
Ted :-6
I forgot about that one! :yh_rotfl
Here are other "oddities" about the God in the Bible.
God doesn't repent. Num. 23:19
God does repent. Ex.32:14
No man can see God's face and live Ex. 33:20
A man saw God's face and his life was preserved Gen. 32:30
His "home", Heaven, is a perfect place yet there was a war there. Rev. 12:7
I think we did make God in our image. The only way to truth here must be to see the metaphor and look for God THROUGH the lines and not IN the words. If in the beginning there was the WORD, each word is divine...it's when we put them together that we seem to have problems.
I'm alwarys amused by God asking Adam where he is hiding in the Garden of Eden! LOL
Shalom
Ted :-6
I forgot about that one! :yh_rotfl
Here are other "oddities" about the God in the Bible.
God doesn't repent. Num. 23:19
God does repent. Ex.32:14
No man can see God's face and live Ex. 33:20
A man saw God's face and his life was preserved Gen. 32:30
His "home", Heaven, is a perfect place yet there was a war there. Rev. 12:7
I think we did make God in our image. The only way to truth here must be to see the metaphor and look for God THROUGH the lines and not IN the words. If in the beginning there was the WORD, each word is divine...it's when we put them together that we seem to have problems.
Literal or Metaphor?
koan :-6
Ah, look for the truth and the message behind the lines. That is what midrash is all about.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Ah, look for the truth and the message behind the lines. That is what midrash is all about.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Literal or Metaphor?
It is interesting about legends taking two generations.
I wonder what legends will come of our generation. Wouldn't it be fun to come up with our own modern testament? What metaphorical stories might need to be told to preserve our knowledge?
I wonder what legends will come of our generation. Wouldn't it be fun to come up with our own modern testament? What metaphorical stories might need to be told to preserve our knowledge?
Literal or Metaphor?
lesley :-6
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. The Bible becomes for Christians "God's Word" because God speaks to us through the Bible not by virtue of its authorship which was purely human.
In facat the Bible was never intended to be an historical document. It is composed of myth, legend, folk tale, poetry, philosophy, short story, fiction etc. and a few kernels of history.
The book itself is midrash from cover to cover and contains a great deal of metaphor. In fact the first five books the Pentateuch was passed on by oral tradition for centuries before being put into writing during the Babylonian Exile. Midrash makes a great deal of use of metaphor as can be seen in the birth stories of Jesus which are pure midrash and were never intended to be taken literally. This in no way denies the historicity of this man Yeshua of Nazareth.
With God's help, much study, prayer discussion and metaphor God will help us to discern the very human words in the Bible from the very messages that God intended.
Shalom
Ted :-6
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. The Bible becomes for Christians "God's Word" because God speaks to us through the Bible not by virtue of its authorship which was purely human.
In facat the Bible was never intended to be an historical document. It is composed of myth, legend, folk tale, poetry, philosophy, short story, fiction etc. and a few kernels of history.
The book itself is midrash from cover to cover and contains a great deal of metaphor. In fact the first five books the Pentateuch was passed on by oral tradition for centuries before being put into writing during the Babylonian Exile. Midrash makes a great deal of use of metaphor as can be seen in the birth stories of Jesus which are pure midrash and were never intended to be taken literally. This in no way denies the historicity of this man Yeshua of Nazareth.
With God's help, much study, prayer discussion and metaphor God will help us to discern the very human words in the Bible from the very messages that God intended.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Literal or Metaphor?
Lesley, welcome to the discussion.
symbolism is a worldly term, a term made by man to describe something in such a way to suit his own purpose.........and his own limited imagination
if you are curious about Gods existence can i suggest you start by reading His word.....and not rely on another mortals opinion...
How creative of man to make the word and develop the use of symbolism to describe what we could otherwise not express...my own imagination is somewhat rampant though can still not conceive of everything nor will it ever as long as it is contained within my brain. I would think that a literal interpretation of the bible takes much less imagination. The words written in the bible were written by mortals and I agree with your assessment.
symbolism is a worldly term, a term made by man to describe something in such a way to suit his own purpose.........and his own limited imagination
if you are curious about Gods existence can i suggest you start by reading His word.....and not rely on another mortals opinion...
How creative of man to make the word and develop the use of symbolism to describe what we could otherwise not express...my own imagination is somewhat rampant though can still not conceive of everything nor will it ever as long as it is contained within my brain. I would think that a literal interpretation of the bible takes much less imagination. The words written in the bible were written by mortals and I agree with your assessment.
Literal or Metaphor?
According to J. Spong the story of the raising of Lazarus from the dead is not an historical event.
John was a sophisticated symbolizer and Lazarus was clearly one of h is primary symbols. So ws water being turned into wineJonh 2:1-11), the concept of being born again (John 3:1-15) and many, many others. p182 "Liberating the Gospels" John Spong.
Shalom
Ted :-6
John was a sophisticated symbolizer and Lazarus was clearly one of h is primary symbols. So ws water being turned into wineJonh 2:1-11), the concept of being born again (John 3:1-15) and many, many others. p182 "Liberating the Gospels" John Spong.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Literal or Metaphor?
marlboro :-6
In order to understand what I have been saying one must be familiar with the ancient style of sacred writing. Most of the Bible is midrash and this makes a great deal of use of metaphor.
The Bible is composed of myth, folk tale, legend, poetry, short story, fiction with kernels of history scattered throughout. None of this negates the truths that it presents.
The Bible becomes for us as Christians "The Word of God" not by virtue of its authorship but by virtue of the fact that God speaks to us through the Bible. The Bible is not a history book and was never intended to be read as such. It was written to present the truths of the Divine. It was written by very human men using very human words as they described their various experiences of the Divine.
As a Christian pluralist I am quite confident in the judgement of God.
Shalom
Ted :-6
In order to understand what I have been saying one must be familiar with the ancient style of sacred writing. Most of the Bible is midrash and this makes a great deal of use of metaphor.
The Bible is composed of myth, folk tale, legend, poetry, short story, fiction with kernels of history scattered throughout. None of this negates the truths that it presents.
The Bible becomes for us as Christians "The Word of God" not by virtue of its authorship but by virtue of the fact that God speaks to us through the Bible. The Bible is not a history book and was never intended to be read as such. It was written to present the truths of the Divine. It was written by very human men using very human words as they described their various experiences of the Divine.
As a Christian pluralist I am quite confident in the judgement of God.
Shalom
Ted :-6