What's wrong with atheism?
What's wrong with atheism?
I don't personally see anything wrong with atheism. It is a chosen way of life the same as any other chosen way of life. To my knowledge atheists do not harm anybody any more than people from any other walk of life.:-6
miriam:yh_flower
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
What's wrong with atheism?
gmc;468545 wrote: I think basically we do agree. An agnostic is soneone who says you can't know either way.
I object to the wording as it rather predicates god does exist but you have no knowledge of him.
The number of times you end up with this logic loop in discussion with some religious people that goes round something like -you don't know about god because you have not studied the bible, if you did you would be a believer, if you have studied and don't believe then you haven't studied properly and didn't understand. You are an unbeliever because you have no knowledge of god.
The very concept that you might have actually given the matter some thought freaks them out.
On the other hand an aetheist would argue you have no knowledge of god because he does not exist. You can't be an unbeliever because you can't not believe in something that does not exist.
The very idea that yo might have given the matter somethoght and regard aetheism as just as irrational a belief as monotheism freaks them out.
Whereas an agnostic would argue you just don't know. You get all sides trting to club you in to submission so you agree with them.
What is wrong with aetheism is the same thing that is wrong with relgon. Fundamntalists opf all types just cannot acept that some do not believe as they do and feel compelled top ramtheir beliefs down everybody elses throat. Either by force when they have the authority or by more subtle social control when they don't.
Let's not get bogged down in a specific phrase - I see it as indeterminate with anything read into it being down to the beliefs of the reader.
Leave it as an Agnostic is someone who does not know it God does or does not exist and agree about it
I object to the wording as it rather predicates god does exist but you have no knowledge of him.
The number of times you end up with this logic loop in discussion with some religious people that goes round something like -you don't know about god because you have not studied the bible, if you did you would be a believer, if you have studied and don't believe then you haven't studied properly and didn't understand. You are an unbeliever because you have no knowledge of god.
The very concept that you might have actually given the matter some thought freaks them out.
On the other hand an aetheist would argue you have no knowledge of god because he does not exist. You can't be an unbeliever because you can't not believe in something that does not exist.
The very idea that yo might have given the matter somethoght and regard aetheism as just as irrational a belief as monotheism freaks them out.
Whereas an agnostic would argue you just don't know. You get all sides trting to club you in to submission so you agree with them.
What is wrong with aetheism is the same thing that is wrong with relgon. Fundamntalists opf all types just cannot acept that some do not believe as they do and feel compelled top ramtheir beliefs down everybody elses throat. Either by force when they have the authority or by more subtle social control when they don't.
Let's not get bogged down in a specific phrase - I see it as indeterminate with anything read into it being down to the beliefs of the reader.
Leave it as an Agnostic is someone who does not know it God does or does not exist and agree about it
What's wrong with atheism?
Bryn Mawr;468719 wrote: Let's not get bogged down in a specific phrase - I see it as indeterminate with anything read into it being down to the beliefs of the reader.
Leave it as an Agnostic is someone who does not know it God does or does not exist and agree about it
You're right we shouldn't get bogged down, but semantics do matter.
How about an agnostic is someone that argues you cannot know whether he exists or not.
Does not know as I said earlier rather implies that you can be brought to know god by a religious person or that you just need to be enlightened by the aetheist.
It's not that you don't "know" it's simply that no one can know for sure either way. Faith would not exist as there would be no need for it if you could actually prove god existed, just as atheism would not exist if you could prove conclusively there was no god.
But you're right it's silly to get bogged down in something we essentially agree on.
posted by diuretic
I think this is more about the personality of some people rather than atheism or religion of themselves.
Perhaps but there is also something inherent in both that turns a character flaw in to a fanatic. An inability to accept that others may look at the same event (supposed or otherwise) and interpret it differently with religon becomes perverted in to a dangerous zeal to impose their view on others for their own good. Because you believe what you believe is the only correct belief then it is not too hard to convince yourself that you are justified in doing anything necessary to bring unbelievers over.
Maybe the problem is the nature of mankind and our simian ancestry-unless you reject the theory of evolution in favour of a mysoginistic fairy story as found in genesis.
Leave it as an Agnostic is someone who does not know it God does or does not exist and agree about it
You're right we shouldn't get bogged down, but semantics do matter.
How about an agnostic is someone that argues you cannot know whether he exists or not.
Does not know as I said earlier rather implies that you can be brought to know god by a religious person or that you just need to be enlightened by the aetheist.
It's not that you don't "know" it's simply that no one can know for sure either way. Faith would not exist as there would be no need for it if you could actually prove god existed, just as atheism would not exist if you could prove conclusively there was no god.
But you're right it's silly to get bogged down in something we essentially agree on.
posted by diuretic
I think this is more about the personality of some people rather than atheism or religion of themselves.
Perhaps but there is also something inherent in both that turns a character flaw in to a fanatic. An inability to accept that others may look at the same event (supposed or otherwise) and interpret it differently with religon becomes perverted in to a dangerous zeal to impose their view on others for their own good. Because you believe what you believe is the only correct belief then it is not too hard to convince yourself that you are justified in doing anything necessary to bring unbelievers over.
Maybe the problem is the nature of mankind and our simian ancestry-unless you reject the theory of evolution in favour of a mysoginistic fairy story as found in genesis.
What's wrong with atheism?
gmc;469515 wrote:
How about an agnostic is someone that argues you cannot know whether he exists or not.
Where does that leave someone who has investigated the arguments from every side and has failed to reach a conclusive decision but hopes to, given more information and insight?
Believer - One who believes yea
Agnostic - One who believes it unproven or unprovable
Athiest - One who believes nay
How about an agnostic is someone that argues you cannot know whether he exists or not.
Where does that leave someone who has investigated the arguments from every side and has failed to reach a conclusive decision but hopes to, given more information and insight?
Believer - One who believes yea
Agnostic - One who believes it unproven or unprovable
Athiest - One who believes nay
What's wrong with atheism?
Bryn Mawr;469671 wrote: Where does that leave someone who has investigated the arguments from every side and has failed to reach a conclusive decision but hopes to, given more information and insight?
Believer - One who believes yea
Agnostic - One who believes it unproven or unprovable
Athiest - One who believes nay
Agnostic, one who believes it unproven or unproveable-so far. You can't know either way doesn't shut of the possibility that that may change as we learn more.
Believer - One who believes yea
Agnostic - One who believes it unproven or unprovable
Athiest - One who believes nay
Agnostic, one who believes it unproven or unproveable-so far. You can't know either way doesn't shut of the possibility that that may change as we learn more.
What's wrong with atheism?
gmc;470014 wrote: Agnostic, one who believes it unproven or unproveable-so far. You can't know either way doesn't shut of the possibility that that may change as we learn more.
Perfectly acceptable - as clear a definition as I've seen and exactly where I would like to get to.
Perfectly acceptable - as clear a definition as I've seen and exactly where I would like to get to.
What's wrong with atheism?
Bryn Mawr;470341 wrote: Perfectly acceptable - as clear a definition as I've seen and exactly where I would like to get to.
Kind of sounds like you are already there. The thing is you find yourself annoying both sides of the faith debate each wanting you to take the leap to their side and telling you you haven't thought things through.
Kind of sounds like you are already there. The thing is you find yourself annoying both sides of the faith debate each wanting you to take the leap to their side and telling you you haven't thought things through.
What's wrong with atheism?
As an agnostic, I've been accused of being unable to make up my mind. As if the human mind could, in fact, grasp the forces which created the universe as we understand it!
Sure! :rolleyes:
I usually tell those people that I'm comfortable without having to "know"...I'm brave enough to live with uncertainty. THAT usually changes the subject! :wah:
Sure! :rolleyes:
I usually tell those people that I'm comfortable without having to "know"...I'm brave enough to live with uncertainty. THAT usually changes the subject! :wah:
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
What's wrong with atheism?
Lulu2;471089 wrote: As an agnostic, I've been accused of being unable to make up my mind. As if the human mind could, in fact, grasp the forces which created the universe as we understand it!
Sure! :rolleyes:
I usually tell those people that I'm comfortable without having to "know"...I'm brave enough to live with uncertainty. THAT usually changes the subject! :wah:
I usually respond with something along the lines of you can't make up your mind if there is insufficient information and they have basically made an irrational choice. Doesn't always go down very well.
Sure! :rolleyes:
I usually tell those people that I'm comfortable without having to "know"...I'm brave enough to live with uncertainty. THAT usually changes the subject! :wah:
I usually respond with something along the lines of you can't make up your mind if there is insufficient information and they have basically made an irrational choice. Doesn't always go down very well.
What's wrong with atheism?
Precisely! Haven't you noticed that most people are just too f$%(G scared of the dark to live their lives without some sort of myth to keep them comfy?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
What's wrong with atheism?
gmc;471450 wrote: I usually respond with something along the lines of you can't make up your mind if there is insufficient information and they have basically made an irrational choice. Doesn't always go down very well.
Life is just a bunch of choices and no one person's choice is any better than any other person's choice. There is no such thing as an irrational choice except in the mind of one who thinks he has made the rightest choice. Because you see, to make no choice is a choice of its own. So every person alive makes a choice.
And Lulu
You call it a myth if you like with all your mirth and you be as foolish as anyone else.
Life is just a bunch of choices and no one person's choice is any better than any other person's choice. There is no such thing as an irrational choice except in the mind of one who thinks he has made the rightest choice. Because you see, to make no choice is a choice of its own. So every person alive makes a choice.
And Lulu
You call it a myth if you like with all your mirth and you be as foolish as anyone else.
miriam:yh_flower
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
What's wrong with atheism?
"foolish?"
Weber...you've just made my "ignore" list.
Weber...you've just made my "ignore" list.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
What's wrong with atheism?
Lulu2;471719 wrote: "foolish?"
Weber...you've just made my "ignore" list.
Anyone with an ignore list, well it doesn't matter. Somebody please quote me so she has to see it.
What I said was not that bad, ever.
Weber...you've just made my "ignore" list.
Anyone with an ignore list, well it doesn't matter. Somebody please quote me so she has to see it.
What I said was not that bad, ever.
miriam:yh_flower
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
What's wrong with atheism?
weber;471723 wrote: Anyone with an ignore list, well it doesn't matter. Somebody please quote me so she has to see it.
What I said was not that bad, ever.
When someone calls people f**king scared and believing in myths it does appear to be over the top to then take umbridge at being called foolish.
If you throw it out then take the flack.
What I said was not that bad, ever.
When someone calls people f**king scared and believing in myths it does appear to be over the top to then take umbridge at being called foolish.
If you throw it out then take the flack.
What's wrong with atheism?
Bryn, you've done Weber's bidding and I'm sure she's grateful. "throwing it out and taking the flack" is your opinion, of course, and I've no intention of debating any of this with any of you.
Goodbye.
Goodbye.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
What's wrong with atheism?
Lulu
What I said wasn't so bad and that is why he quoted, not because I asked. I said foolish as anyone else and in a sense we are all foolish. There is a lot of love in this forum......enough to get through these squabbles we have. I had no intent to harm you. To have my belief called a myth is hurtful. I don't do that to anybody else. I give leeway to everybody to believe as they choose. And I have nobody on ignore, not even the trolls. I didn't join here to shut people out.
You asked me to agree to disagree before. At first I wouldn't and then I did when I realized what I had done. Can you agree to disagree, and continue with this thread which has merit.
What I said wasn't so bad and that is why he quoted, not because I asked. I said foolish as anyone else and in a sense we are all foolish. There is a lot of love in this forum......enough to get through these squabbles we have. I had no intent to harm you. To have my belief called a myth is hurtful. I don't do that to anybody else. I give leeway to everybody to believe as they choose. And I have nobody on ignore, not even the trolls. I didn't join here to shut people out.
You asked me to agree to disagree before. At first I wouldn't and then I did when I realized what I had done. Can you agree to disagree, and continue with this thread which has merit.
miriam:yh_flower
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
.................Charles Mingus
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/enter.cfm?
What's wrong with atheism?
Lulu2;471780 wrote: Bryn, you've done Weber's bidding and I'm sure she's grateful. "throwing it out and taking the flack" is your opinion, of course, and I've no intention of debating any of this with any of you.
Goodbye.
No, I've done what I thought was right - and if that get me onto your ignore list then so be it.
Goodbye.
No, I've done what I thought was right - and if that get me onto your ignore list then so be it.
What's wrong with atheism?
Lulu2;471708 wrote: Precisely! Haven't you noticed that most people are just too f$%(G scared of the dark to live their lives without some sort of myth to keep them comfy?
You act like people lie about how they feel upon their faith. If such were the case, it would be blatantly obvious, and I don't see that as the case at all. I see people who wish to believe in something powerful and pure associated with love that they wish to spread continuously, without having the need to defend themselves.
You act like people lie about how they feel upon their faith. If such were the case, it would be blatantly obvious, and I don't see that as the case at all. I see people who wish to believe in something powerful and pure associated with love that they wish to spread continuously, without having the need to defend themselves.
What's wrong with atheism?
Lulu2;471708 wrote: Precisely! Haven't you noticed that most people are just too f$%(G scared of the dark to live their lives without some sort of myth to keep them comfy?
Which myth? Atheist fundamentalists are just a bad as christian or muslim ones.
Actually I find most people are just intensely curious and want to work through for their own answers. I generally approach with a study everything, choose what to believe cautiously and disparage nothing and nobody attitude. It isn't always reciprocated but I don't need to worry about that.
posted by diuretic
And none of us, atheist, agnostic, theist, has a special claim to moral superiority
I would also add intellectual superiority as well.
Of course one of the problems about being reasonable and having an open mind is you miss out in all the heated arguements because you try and respect the others point of view rather than just calling them pillocks and getting into fights about it.
Which myth? Atheist fundamentalists are just a bad as christian or muslim ones.
Actually I find most people are just intensely curious and want to work through for their own answers. I generally approach with a study everything, choose what to believe cautiously and disparage nothing and nobody attitude. It isn't always reciprocated but I don't need to worry about that.
posted by diuretic
And none of us, atheist, agnostic, theist, has a special claim to moral superiority
I would also add intellectual superiority as well.
Of course one of the problems about being reasonable and having an open mind is you miss out in all the heated arguements because you try and respect the others point of view rather than just calling them pillocks and getting into fights about it.
What's wrong with atheism?
Diuretic;472590 wrote: We all have a cross (or maybe not a cross) to bear 
I still haven't decided
:yh_rotfl
I still haven't decided
:yh_rotfl-
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What's wrong with atheism?
:wah: :wah:
What's wrong with atheism?
Diuretic;472389 wrote: And none of us, atheist, agnostic, theist, has a special claim to moral superiority
Nah, more or less, they are the same. People of religion and people whom do not believe in god, as far as morality is concerned. Rather just stating that people of religion are seen as imposing their religion as opposed to just trying to spread the word of god.
Nah, more or less, they are the same. People of religion and people whom do not believe in god, as far as morality is concerned. Rather just stating that people of religion are seen as imposing their religion as opposed to just trying to spread the word of god.
What's wrong with atheism?
K.Snyder;472856 wrote: Nah, more or less, they are the same. People of religion and people whom do not believe in god, as far as morality is concerned. Rather just stating that people of religion are seen as imposing their religion as opposed to just trying to spread the word of god.
Don't quite get what point you are trying to make:-3 .
Don't quite get what point you are trying to make:-3 .
What's wrong with atheism?
Diuretic;455417 wrote: Yes weber. I always thought the word was a synonym for "non-theism". I'm not a language expert but it sort of reminds me of the word "amoral" meaning "not oral". So a-theism for me means, non-theism, meaning not religious.
I think the pre-fix "a" means "without" so atheism is without god, amoral is without morals.....asymetrical means without symmetry....
I think the pre-fix "a" means "without" so atheism is without god, amoral is without morals.....asymetrical means without symmetry....
What's wrong with atheism?
I don't know what exactly I believe in - I think there is something but I am uncomfortable with the organised religion side of it all. whether we believe or not, we're all going to find out in the end!! My grandpa used to hedge his bets so to speak - he used to say he believed so that if there was a god he'd be alreight but if there was nothing then it didn't matter anyway!!
Maybe belief is like Terry Pratchett puts it - gods pop in and out of existance according to how many people believe. And at the end of the day, if anyone had found the right religion/belief, which made perfect sense and was the truth, there would be no conflict as every one would say yes that's right, that's how it is........
Maybe belief is like Terry Pratchett puts it - gods pop in and out of existance according to how many people believe. And at the end of the day, if anyone had found the right religion/belief, which made perfect sense and was the truth, there would be no conflict as every one would say yes that's right, that's how it is........
What's wrong with atheism?
I have determined for myself that... I do not for myself, like the word atheiist. For some inexplicable reason when I discover I am in the company of someone who claims the title... I feel quite fearful. It isnt discovering that they dont believe in GOD. Its that it makes me feel that they dont believe in anything divine. It is indicitive to me of a person who leans more towards scientific explanations for living, and I know those personalities are not a good match for me. I refer to GOD on a regular and automatic basis. When in acctuality it is not God per say that I believe in. It is really an energy a force, some kind of observer of human behavior. Although I have stated over and over again that I scoff at organized religion... the seeds of my Catholic upbringing evidently took root and cultivated weeds of fear that I have to keep pulling out day after day after day. Since I do not believe in using chemicals, I have to do it manually. It is very exhausting.
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What's wrong with atheism?
Diuretic;508003 wrote: Agreed. I have found myself in the past in conflict with someone close to me and that conflict being a fundamental disagreement on the existence of God or god or gods. I believe in nothing divine. I have no time at all for religion and I really believe the world would be much better without any trace of it. However I try not to make a fetish of it. Oops, another pun.
Catholicism is a powerful and effective propaganda machine and has destroyed countless lives and is still causing immense harm in the world. Still it's nice to know they dispensed with Limbo a while ago. I must admit to feeling great relief for the innocents. Now all they have to do is work on Purgatory (which I believe is still in the Vatican real estate listings).
Theology - a waste of brain power. Always reminds me of the lyrics from a Jane Siberry song (Half Angel, Half Eagle):
Fiveintelligent minds huddled in a fancy restaurant,
all that brain power bent on...what shall I? what shallI?..
I think that falls under the category of each individual and their decisions as opposed to blaming the entire religion...If a certain ethnic group was shown statistically that they happen to commit more crimes, you wouldn't automatically resent peoples of the same ethnicity.
If such were the case, then it would be equally adjacent to give praise to individual religious charitable foundations for their common courtesy at the same time condemning those who choose not to help human nature at all.
Catholicism is a powerful and effective propaganda machine and has destroyed countless lives and is still causing immense harm in the world. Still it's nice to know they dispensed with Limbo a while ago. I must admit to feeling great relief for the innocents. Now all they have to do is work on Purgatory (which I believe is still in the Vatican real estate listings).
Theology - a waste of brain power. Always reminds me of the lyrics from a Jane Siberry song (Half Angel, Half Eagle):
Fiveintelligent minds huddled in a fancy restaurant,
all that brain power bent on...what shall I? what shallI?..
I think that falls under the category of each individual and their decisions as opposed to blaming the entire religion...If a certain ethnic group was shown statistically that they happen to commit more crimes, you wouldn't automatically resent peoples of the same ethnicity.
If such were the case, then it would be equally adjacent to give praise to individual religious charitable foundations for their common courtesy at the same time condemning those who choose not to help human nature at all.
What's wrong with atheism?
Diuretic;508550 wrote: K I'd be wary of someone from that ethnicity, knowing they had a proclivity for crime, yes.
The Catholic Church is a malevolent presence in our world. It - like many other religious institutions - has done some good, some charitable works but for the most part the world would be better off without it. Its history is indicative of its nature.
From my own experience I'll just disagree...I see alot of humanitarian aid coming from people from religious communities, and I am a firm believer in taking responsibility for ones own actions...I hate to think someone would do "anything" just because their religion calls for it...Somewhere their instinct and rationality has to account for something...For those people I call them weak...I know I wouldn't kill just because someone claims that it would be Gods intention...As I said, I personally think that falls under the category of individual decision making, and just because some have happened to claim religion doesn't mean all of that religion is bad...What some may call bad judgement in the hands of people whom claim to be of a religion, I call people who haven't been religious to begin with...Plenty have murdered because of what they claim the voices inside their head told them to do, but I don't blame the voices, I blame them.
The Catholic Church is a malevolent presence in our world. It - like many other religious institutions - has done some good, some charitable works but for the most part the world would be better off without it. Its history is indicative of its nature.
From my own experience I'll just disagree...I see alot of humanitarian aid coming from people from religious communities, and I am a firm believer in taking responsibility for ones own actions...I hate to think someone would do "anything" just because their religion calls for it...Somewhere their instinct and rationality has to account for something...For those people I call them weak...I know I wouldn't kill just because someone claims that it would be Gods intention...As I said, I personally think that falls under the category of individual decision making, and just because some have happened to claim religion doesn't mean all of that religion is bad...What some may call bad judgement in the hands of people whom claim to be of a religion, I call people who haven't been religious to begin with...Plenty have murdered because of what they claim the voices inside their head told them to do, but I don't blame the voices, I blame them.
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What's wrong with atheism?
Diuretic;508550 wrote: K I'd be wary of someone from that ethnicity, knowing they had a proclivity for crime, yes.
The Catholic Church is a malevolent presence in our world. It - like many other religious institutions - has done some good, some charitable works but for the most part the world would be better off without it. Its history is indicative of its nature.
You're wary of all Catholics, then, for their proclivity for malevolence?
Pretty broad, friend o' mine.
The Catholic Church is a malevolent presence in our world. It - like many other religious institutions - has done some good, some charitable works but for the most part the world would be better off without it. Its history is indicative of its nature.
You're wary of all Catholics, then, for their proclivity for malevolence?
Pretty broad, friend o' mine.
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What's wrong with atheism?
Diuretic;508744 wrote: No Acc, I've known many Catholics and I have to say I didn't find them at all malevolent. It's the Church itself, its governance, its philosophy, its history, its being there at all that I find repugnant.
Then I recommend you revisit K's comment about viewing members of an ethnic group as having the same proclivity. (I really tried to make this post clear.
)
Then I recommend you revisit K's comment about viewing members of an ethnic group as having the same proclivity. (I really tried to make this post clear.
)