Double standards of Bush adminstration

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:54 am

Jives wrote: Abuse is such a harsh word, let's just say that he is a staunch defender of his country and percieves that you have slandered it's name. Naturally, he'd speak up to protect the country he loves. Suresh, even I, a supporter of you, believe that you have some opinions that have been colored by various sources. America is neither as bad as you think it is, nor as good as I think it is. What causes so much emotion in this thread is America's ability to affect the world, for good or bad.

I have explained to Mr. Kensloft that I respect his being a staunch supporter of his country. I also love my country and wish a happly, peaceful and prosperous future for it. I am for peace and do not support any direct or indirect act which will create war like conditions or war itself.

Not at all! I respect your views, Suresh. You are obviously a very intelligent person. And mathematically, the fact that just one American respects your views negates your theory.

Thanks. I also respect your views and your efforts as a moderator. I don't have any theories. I only have my feelings about issues and express them in the form of opinion.

True! Perhaps I can get this thread back on track again.....

Suresh: What would you do about the proliferation of nuclear weapons in the world if you were the U.S.?

Kensloft: If you were India, how would you deal with Pakistan, a nation that continually fights you for Kashmir, has threatened to use Nukes in the past and seems to do nothing about the Islamic terrorists that stream across your border and kill trainloads of innocent women and children?

As US is the super power and elder brother in the global family, I will lead the family by examples. I will first bring my nuclear arsenal to the level of the next country, and then ask it to start reducing its arsenal along with me to the level of the next in the line. In this manner I will reach the level zero along with all the nuclear countries in the world.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:25 am

Jives wrote: Hey Ken....Suresh has a point there. With their population and the current state of education in their country (not to mention ours) it's only a matter of time until they are major players on the world stage. I called a direct order mailhouse the other day, and got their headquarters in, you guessed it, India

We ought to be grooming friendship with them, not alienating them.

India is on the road of development. In this effort we want friendship and support of every nation in the world, and especially of US and other developed countries. Our President has outlined a vision for India 2020 and each one of us share his vision and wish to work to achieve it. We have many people and limited resources. It hurts me when these precious resources are wasted on arms conflict. We want peace as it is only peace which allows sustainable development.

And the neighbors you speak of wanting to be at peace with each other, that's not the radical Islamic terrorists of Pakistan's North now is it, Suresh. They could care less about being friends with India. But I'm assuming you are speaking of being friends with the US.

We want strong neighbours as a weak or uncertain neighbour will be a continuous cause for conflict. We do not want any arms conflict as it erodes the progress already made and puts us way behind. We have had few wars and our experience is that no more wars if we want to progress. India onsiders US as one of its best friends and we want to continue our friendship based on mutual trust, respect and benefits.

Well, guardian is a good choice of words, but I wouldn't say the U.S. is "self-procalimed". As a matter of fact, we usually get called in by other countries to do the job. Like I said before, we are the strongest militarily, and so the job just kind of falls into our laps. You should know that most average Americans do not really like the fact that we are policing the world. We'd like it better if everyone could just get along and solve their differences themselves...but that doesn't seem to happen too often does it?

In today's world, whether one agrees or not. US is a guardian of the global family, be it self-proclaimed or natural. We wish to see it as a natural guardian. If some disgruntled elements or politicians in a country, out to serve their vested interests, call US to interfere then we expect that it should not lead to a war. Such people should be exposed. History tells us that such people have not only become the reason for killing of thousand of innocent people but have also harmed US in the longer run.

And to everyone who's been hammering poor Suresh, please remember that he is a member of a nation that is America's ally and has been for the last century or so. Let's don't get too emotional, it's just politics after all! :rolleyes:

Thanks.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:36 am

Jives wrote: Suresh, is it the actual US government that is selling the arms? or the companies that manufacture them? Your point is logical, so why is the illogical happening?

As I understand (and I am open to correction) it is the US government which approves the deal and US congress/senate's approval is also mandatory. Actual supply is made by the manufacturers. Company's manufacturing arms can not sell them directly to any country.

Post by **kensloft** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:26 am

Suresh Gupta wrote: What you have written is right. In fact, I have been telling you the same thing. Personal abuses are not a part of any debate. I do not know what you consider abusing but I consider the words you have used as abusing me. So why not post our opinion without indulging in personal attacks. Let us stick to the issues and not bring in personalities. Are you game on this?

I am not under any such impression. I have explained it many times.

I have all respect for your ideals, beliefs, your love for your country and its multicultural society. I may not agree with some of your views but that does not lessen my respect for you.

I am not pushing anything and there is nothing to do with race or nationality in my head. Please don't read me wrong. I am simply expressing my individual opinion on an issue. And this opinion does not represent my opinion on other issues related to you or US administration policies. There are many policies of US administration which I view as very positive and in the interest of the world. Please allow me to have a different opinion if I feel that way about some policies.

I will reiterate. You are hiding from having to explain yourself. You do so by playing the poor, misunderstood foreigner that capitalizes on Jives acting as intermediary. This is not a school nor am I a student under Jives tutelege. It seems that the two of you work well off of each other because neither of you answer questions. It is the old "Let's pretend that we don't hear them and maybe they'll go away!" In this case it is forget the questions and statements that were posed. Claim that they are abusive and corroborate each other's stories by leading off into other tangental affairs.

One of the means that you utilize is when you always ask for the other person to go back and review what was said in order to prove what you said. I've been back but you obviously haven't because you still adhere to your fantasy of it's not me(suresh) but the other guy(kensloft) that is wrong.

Let me answer your question. I did not accuse you of abusing me on this thread or another thread. I stated a fact. The words you have used, I consider them abusing.

I had asked you to point out if any such words I have used for you. I am still waiting for your answer.

This above statement is a baldfaced lie. You go back and read the posts and you will see how many times that you stated/accused me of being abusive. That is abusive and it is abuse in its worst form.

Omission is as bad as telling a lie. Sometimes it is what is not said that is the most important fact. You have not answered the statement that the Indian people used Canadian technology and trust to make their atom bombs and now you are going to use them to blackmail the rest of the world into toeing your line for disarmament. Don't forget that the biggest power in the area is right next door to the east. You've already had a few wars with them. I suppose that your several bombs will force the Chinese to toe your line? How are you to get around this double standard that you are practicing. To many people the Indians can't be trusted to do what is right because they lied to Canada.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:05 pm

Suresh Gupta wrote: India is on the road of development. In this effort we want friendship and support of every nation in the world, and especially of US and other developed countries. Our President has outlined a vision for India 2020 and each one of us share his vision and wish to work to achieve it. We have many people and limited resources. It hurts me when these precious resources are wasted on arms conflict. We want peace as it is only peace which allows sustainable development.

We want strong neighbours as a weak or uncertain neighbour will be a continuous cause for conflict. We do not want any arms conflict as it erodes the progress already made and puts us way behind. We have had few wars and our experience is that no more wars if we want to progress. India onsiders US as one of its best friends and we want to continue our friendship based on mutual trust, respect and benefits.

In today's world, whether one agrees or not. US is a guardian of the global family, be it self-proclaimed or natural. We wish to see it as a natural guardian. If some disgruntled elements or politicians in a country, out to serve their vested interests, call US to interfere then we expect that it should not lead to a war. Such people should be exposed. History tells us that such people have not only become the reason for killing of thousand of innocent people but have also harmed US in the longer run.

Thanks.

This is just plain difficult to read. I can't make out what it is you are trying to say...AT ALL.

On one hand you say you are seeking peace as a country then you say you don't want "weak" neighbours and want to claim the US as an ally (despite their double standards which would make them "uncertain") Aligning yourselves with strong allies and rejecting the weak does not seem compassionate or peacemaking. You want the "friendship and support of all nations"...except for the weak ones of course...but what has India done to prove they are not weak or uncertain, in your own terms.

Are you trying to think of what is the right thing to say instead of writing what you really think? How is this contradiction happening?

Jives.

Suresh is not being "hammered" he is being asked to be accountable for what he has said.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:10 pm

kensloft wrote: I will reiterate. You are hiding from having to explain yourself. You do so by playing the poor, misunderstood foreigner that capitalizes on Jives acting as intermediary. This is not a school nor am I a student under Jives tutelege. It seems that the two of you work well off of each other because neither of you answer questions. It is the old "Let's pretend that we don't hear them and maybe they'll go away!" In this case it is forget the questions and statements that were posed. Claim that they are abusive and corroborate each other's stories by leading off into other tangental affairs.

Mr. Kensloft, I thought that my answers will satisfy you but you seem to be in no mood to understand. Let me try once again. I am not hiding from having to explain myself. I have explained myself not only once but many tmes. I am not a poor, misunderstood fereigner. I am simply a member on this forum. I am not capatilizing on Jives. I think that he is a very nice moderator. He is trying to ensure taht debate is carried on in a decent manner. I am trying to go along with him. What you think about his role is your prerogative.

Now if you still feel that I have not answered your questions then I will request you to post which question you wanted but has not been answered. I will try to answer it again. I think nothing can be more fair than this. Or you advise me what should I do.

One of the means that you utilize is when you always ask for the other person to go back and review what was said in order to prove what you said. I've been back but you obviously haven't because you still adhere to your fantasy of it's not me(suresh) but the other guy(kensloft) that is wrong.

I write what I feel and it is natural that I think it is correct or else I would not be posting it. But I don't believe that you are wrong. Let me tell you once again that I respect your views. Not agreeing with some of them does not mean that I don't respect you.

This above statement is a baldfaced lie. You go back and read the posts and you will see how many times that you stated/accused me of being abusive. That is abusive and it is abuse in its worst form.

If you feel it that way then OK it may be a baldfaced lie. But can I request you to point out some such case for me to review if I have accused you or abused you? If you think it is not possible for you to point out any such case then I submit my general apology for causing you pain by any accusation and/or abuse I might have posted in my messages. I consider all FG members as my friend and I will gladly loose an argument than loosing a friend.

Omission is as bad as telling a lie. Sometimes it is what is not said that is the most important fact. You have not answered the statement that the Indian people used Canadian technology and trust to make their atom bombs and now you are going to use them to blackmail the rest of the world into toeing your line for disarmament. Don't forget that the biggest power in the area is right next door to the east. You've already had a few wars with them. I suppose that your several bombs will force the Chinese to toe your line? How are you to get around this double standard that you are practicing. To many people the Indians can't be trusted to do what is right because they lied to Canada.

You have gone too far in this paragraph. But I will not retaliate as it is not the purpose of my being on this forum. Frankly I have no knowledge of what happened between India and Canada relating to nuclear technology. But I will take your word for it. If it is true then it is not good. India should not have lied. Rather it should have stated its position very clearly.

India has no intention to blackmail any body. Indian government has very clearly stated its policy of no-first use of its nuclear capability against any country. India is on the path of developing good relations with Chinese government and their people. China is our neighbour and we want a powerful friend in our neighbourhood.

If according to you there are many people who do not trust Indians then I will say it is very unfortunate for us Indians. We want to earn the trust of all. Presently the task before me is to earn your trust.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:42 pm

[QUOTE=koan]This is just plain difficult to read. I can't make out what it is you are trying to say...AT ALL.

Koan, I am surprised that you say that you can't make out what it is I am trying to say. I thought I have explained my position very clearly. Is it that you have determined not to understand? But let me make another try.

[QUOTE]On one hand you say you are seeking peace as a country then you say you don't want "weak" neighbours and want to claim the US as an ally (despite their double standards which would make them "uncertain") Aligning yourselves with strong allies and rejecting the weak does not seem compassionate or peacemaking. You want the "friendship and support of all nations"...except for the weak ones of course...but what has India done to prove they are not weak or uncertain, in your own terms.

Yes we are seeking peace as a country. When I say that we don't want weak neighbours, I mean that our neighbours should be strong. It is always better to have countries in one's neighbourhood who are strong and are not weak. It they are striong then their strength will flow in to our country through mutually-beneficial relationship between us.

We don't reject the weak. We try evetything in our power to help them becoming strong.

We may be weak but we try to become strong with the help of friendship and support of all antions. Now I hope you will understand what I am trying to say.

Are you trying to think of what is the right thing to say instead of writing what you really think? How is this contradiction happening?

I write what I think is right. There is no contradiction. Dear Koan why are you finding wrong or contradiction in everything I write? it was not like this earlier. You used to appreiciate many views of mine. What has happened now?

Jives. Suresh is not being "hammered" he is being asked to be accountable for what he has said.

Asking me to be accountable for what I have said? Yes I am accountable like everybody else for what they say, write or do, including you I believe. But if in my case you think I should be punished then what punishment you have choosen for me? Tell me, I will gladly accept it. I want you as my friend.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:27 am

Mr. Gupta.

It is not proper debate form to take every arguement against your statements as a personal affront. You make it impossible to have a reasonable discussion. If you don't like confrontation stay out of politics.

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:52 pm

kensloft wrote: . You are hiding from having to explain yourself. You do so by playing the poor, misunderstood foreigner that capitalizes on Jives acting as intermediary. This is not a school nor am I a student under Jives tutelege.

(jives smiles widely) Well...so much for my diplomacy skills! Sorry, Kensloft, I didn't mean for you to think I was siding one way or the other, just trying to calm the oceans of emotions of this thread. Looks like the storm came anyway! Well...that's politics for you!

It seems that the two of you work well off of each other because neither of you answer questions.

Actually, I really don't have any answers to the question as to why the U.S. would allow arms sales to two countries that are both our friends, but rabid enemies of each other. It just doesn't make sense to me. So I'm not "answering" because I'm trying to gather information and figure it out. ;(

other tangental affairs.

The subject of politics does lead itself to tangents, doesn't it? I certainly wasn't trying to ignore you or change the subject, ken. Far from it. I was just trying to use analogies and examples to understand everyone's positions.

You have not answered the statement that the Indian people used Canadian technology and trust to make their atom bombs and now you are going to use them to blackmail the rest of the world into toeing your line for disarmament..

Interesting. Is this true Suresh? Did India use Candian technology to produce atomic weapons without it's permission?

and now that my efforts at mediation have failed miserably.....I will do what is suggested by Tombstone in his moderation instructions to me, and I quote, "do not engage people directly in the threads".

I'll leave you guys to your discussion and trust you both. I really don't feel I have to worry, you are both extremely intelligent,creative, and well-spoken.. and understand the boundries here, most likely better than I do!

Post by **kensloft** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:13 pm

Jives wrote: (jives smiles widely) Well...so much for my diplomacy skills! Sorry, Kensloft, I didn't mean for you to think I was siding one way or the other, just trying to calm the oceans of emotions of this thread. Looks like the storm came anyway! Well...that's politics for you!

Actually, I really don't have any answers to the question as to why the U.S. would allow arms sales to two countries that are both our friends, but rabid enemies of each other. It just doesn't make sense to me. So I'm not "answering" because I'm trying to gather information and figure it out. ;(

The subject of politics does lead itself to tangents, doesn't it? I certainly wasn't trying to ignore you or change the subject, ken. Far from it. I was just trying to use analogies and examples to understand everyone's positions.

Interesting. Is this true Suresh? Did India use Candian technology to produce atomic weapons without it's permission?

and now that my efforts at mediation have failed miserably.....I will do what is suggested by Tombstone in his moderation instructions to me, and I quote, "do not engage people directly in the threads".

I'll leave you guys to your discussion and trust you both. I really don't feel I have to worry, you are both extremely intelligent,creative, and well-spoken.. and understand the boundries here, most likely better than I do!

Thanks, Jives!

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:05 pm

koan wrote: Mr. Gupta.

It is not proper debate form to take every arguement against your statements as a personal affront. You make it impossible to have a reasonable discussion. If you don't like confrontation stay out of politics.

Proper debate means what, agrreeing with you even if I have different views? I have done everything to accommodate your feelings but you have perhaps decided not to accept any explanation made by me even saying sorry if I have said anything that has been considered by you a personal affront. As far as I am concerned I don't take any argument against my statement as a personal affront. How many times you want me to say that? You are behaving in an extraordinary manner, amd I don't know why? But that again is your prerogative. I want you as a friend but if you do not want to be then I can only feel sorry about it.

You may be but I am not a politician. I don't want confrontation. But one thing I have learnt that there are people who have limited or no consideration for other viewpoints. Another point which I have learnt but don't agree is that politics does mean confrontation. I am sorry I can not agree with you to stay out. I will continue to post my view points whether you like them or not. To what extent you want me to go to keep your friendship?

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:34 pm

Jives wrote: (jives smiles widely) Well...so much for my diplomacy skills! Sorry, Kensloft, I didn't mean for you to think I was siding one way or the other, just trying to calm the oceans of emotions of this thread. Looks like the storm came anyway! Well...that's politics for you!

Jives, I am not a politician. Issues being discussed here may be related to politics and any actions taken by politicians. I am here as a non-political person. I write what I feel about these issues as a normal Indian citizen.

Actually, I really don't have any answers to the question as to why the U.S. would allow arms sales to two countries that are both our friends, but rabid enemies of each other. It just doesn't make sense to me. So I'm not "answering" because I'm trying to gather information and figure it out. ;(

I also don't have an answer to these questions. I only look at these issues coming in way to peace and sustainable development. My country is a developing country and I wish that no such problems come in its way of development. I hpe that God grants me this wish.

The subject of politics does lead itself to tangents, doesn't it? I certainly wasn't trying to ignore you or change the subject, ken. Far from it. I was just trying to use analogies and examples to understand everyone's positions.

Interesting. Is this true Suresh? Did India use Candian technology to produce atomic weapons without it's permission?

and now that my efforts at mediation have failed miserably.....I will do what is suggested by Tombstone in his moderation instructions to me, and I quote, "do not engage people directly in the threads".

I'll leave you guys to your discussion and trust you both. I really don't feel I have to worry, you are both extremely intelligent,creative, and well-spoken.. and understand the boundries here, most likely better than I do!

I will not comment on subject of politics as I am a non-political person. But as politics affects people's life I like to comment on the desirability of taking such actions.

As far as Canadina nuclear technology issue is concerned I don't know whether it is correct or not. As I have said I have no knowledge of it. I have only taken Kensloft's word on it. It may be true and it may not be true.

I am sorry you feel that your moderation has failed miserably. I have welcomed it and I will welcome it any time. Tombstone, in view of his experience, may be right in his instructions about moderation. I, however, will welcome your engagement with me directly in any thread under your moderation.

I assure you and all other FG members that I am here on this forum with an express aim of sharing my views, information and knowledge with others and take all benefit of their views, information and knowledge. I am not here to hurt anyone. If any of my message has hurt someone then I am extremely sorry for that. I want all members as my friend whether they like my views or not.

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:23 am

Suresh Gupta wrote: I am sorry you feel that your moderation has failed miserably.

lol. No only my efforts at "mediation" have failed. (and apparently weren't needed in the first place.) I haven't "moderated" anything yet, so I'm still 100% on that statistic!

I assure you and all other FG members that I am here on this forum with an express aim of sharing my views, information and knowledge with others and take all benefit of their views, information and knowledge. I am not here to hurt anyone. .

A point that is obvious to all who read your well-spoken posts. That's why I'm not worried about you( or Kensloft for that matter.)

Debate on, guys! :rolleyes:

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:45 pm

Suresh Gupta wrote: Proper debate means what, agrreeing with you even if I have different views? I have done everything to accommodate your feelings but you have perhaps decided not to accept any explanation made by me even saying sorry if I have said anything that has been considered by you a personal affront. As far as I am concerned I don't take any argument against my statement as a personal affront. How many times you want me to say that? You are behaving in an extraordinary manner, amd I don't know why? But that again is your prerogative. I want you as a friend but if you do not want to be then I can only feel sorry about it.

You may be but I am not a politician. I don't want confrontation. But one thing I have learnt that there are people who have limited or no consideration for other viewpoints. Another point which I have learnt but don't agree is that politics does mean confrontation. I am sorry I can not agree with you to stay out. I will continue to post my view points whether you like them or not. To what extent you want me to go to keep your friendship?

That's just dumb and you are not dumb. Why would I care if you agree with me?

I get upset when people are not doing their best or when people do not admit when they are wrong. You were wrong about the government official. Flat out wrong...and have yet to admit it. Fancy backpeddling, changing the topic and finally reverting to talking of feelings and friendship issues between members is definately not the best you can do.

As you now see, politics usually means confrontation. If you choose to stay in the thread then deal with the confrontation. Do not make this a kindergarten conflict. Friendship and feelings have no business in debate.