The Christian Ventriloquist

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:15 pm

Glaswegian;465906 wrote: In case you didn't know it, weber, this is a religious discussion forum. Not a Christian group grope.

oh , in that case, :yh_hugs :yh_hugs :yh_hugs :yh_hugs .....weber..where are ya ? i got some hugs for ya chick....

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:15 pm

Glaswegian;465906 wrote: In case you didn't know it, weber, this is a religious discussion forum. Not a Christian group grope.

You've obviously not wandered around the forum much.

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:16 pm

koan;465909 wrote: You've obviously not wandered around the forum much.

sssshhhhh. this is getting highly entertaining now.....

weber · Post by **weber** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:25 pm

guppy;465908 wrote: oh , in that case, :yh_hugs .....weber..where are ya ? i got some hugs for ya chick....

Hey Guppy

I think this person doesn't like me to say what I think. Is that moot.??? Tks 4 hugs. I need all the hugs I can get cuz I don't feel like backing down from my right to speak.

I ish here Guppy....keep yer fins on:-4 :-4 :-4

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:04 pm

Glaswegian wrote: In case you didn't know it, weber, this is a religious discussion forum. Not a Christian group grope.

guppy;465911 wrote: sssshhhhh. this is getting highly entertaining now.....

'To understand the 'true believer' of religion in more than a superficial way - that is, to know what he is at bottom - one must possess huge, powerful lungs in order to dive down to the psychological depths where the more complex truths about him are to be found. No sooner has one done this, no sooner has one penetrated into the very 'soul' of the true believer, than one begins to feel that one has entered a fetid chamber of dripping anxiety in which obscene and detestable impulses abound. Here, at the innermost core of the true believer's being where the light never reaches, one has a palpable sense of dangerous, gelatinous things quivering and throbbing shamelessly in the darkness.'*

*An excerpt from the forthcoming post 'Into That Darkness...The Mind Of The 'True Believer' by Glaswegian

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:14 pm

As it turns out there is a Christian Ventriloquist. Deputy Bob

Attached files

weber · Post by **weber** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:23 pm

Glaswegian;465939 wrote: 'To understand the 'true believer' of religion in more than a superficial way - that is, to know what he is at bottom - one must possess huge, powerful lungs in order to dive down to the psychological depths where the more complex truths about him are to be found. No sooner has one done this, no sooner has one penetrated into the very 'soul' of the true believer, than one begins to feel that one has entered a fetid chamber of dripping anxiety in which obscene and detestable impulses abound. Here, at the innermost core of the true believer's being where the light never reaches, one has a palpable sense of dangerous, gelatinous things quivering and throbbing shamelessly in the darkness.'*

*An excerpt from the forthcoming post 'Into That Darkness...The Mind Of The 'True Believer' by Glaswegian

Yuk. That sounds disgusting.

I certainly don't feel so disgusting and I have been very intimate with all my innermost parts.

weber · Post by **weber** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:26 pm

Glaswegian;465534 wrote: I can feel your pain, koan.

And that's why I'm going to leave you for a while....

If you leave koan, you leave FG.....no other way

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:27 pm

Glaswegian;465939 wrote: *An excerpt from the forthcoming post 'Into That Darkness...The Mind Of The 'True Believer' by GlaswegianAh. Light dawns. I didn't think we could be burned twice but it seems we can.

What I find slightly distasteful is that we're getting regurgitated posts, just as we did with TruthBringer. James has been hawking his bash-religion message around the Internet in exactly the same way, it's just our turn at the moment. http://www.shadowsinthecave.com/forums/ ... 4254bda471 shows him investing his time elsewhere. It's not surprising that he has extracts available which he can pre-quote from.

Why us, Lord? What did we do to upset you this badly?

Do we have to sit through "Christian Asceticism, Masochism and Power" as well, James? Or "Why God Owes All Masturbators An Apology"? Will you insist on imposing "What Were Jesus's Masturbatory Fantasies Like?" here as well? Have you had so little reaction to "Why Religion Is For Big Infants" in the past that you want to add it to ForumGarden next, along with "The Most Dangerous Myth In The World" and "Into That Darkness...The Mind Of The 'True Believer'"?

For those who want to encomatose themselves, the remainder of this drekk is at http://www.shadowsinthecave.com/forums/ ... .php?t=273 http://www.shadowsinthecave.com/forums/ ... .php?t=254 http://www.shadowsinthecave.com/forums/ ... .php?t=232 http://www.shadowsinthecave.com/forums/ ... c.php?t=97 - I'm not going to list the rest, it's interminable.

I call it an abuse of hospitality, James.

More to the point, if anyone else off-site has Google-searched for this monomaniac, congratulations. You can copy my complaint to your board as well. If James can't be bothered to say he's hawking used goods around, I don't see why you should either.

weber · Post by **weber** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:40 pm

spot;465947 wrote: Ah. Light dawns. I didn't think we could be burned twice but it seems we can.

I call it an abuse of hospitality, James.

More to the point, if anyone else off-site has Google-searched for this monomaniac, congratulations. You can copy my complaint to your board as well. If James can't be bothered to say he's hawking used goods around, I don't see why you should either.

For me, this means I shut this person out. This hospitality abuser will not be spoken to or of again by me. It's called being had and I don't cotton to it at all.

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:52 pm

Pinky;465943 wrote: Koan unmasked? I beg to differ...

Why do you feel the need to defend koan? I'm quite sure she's capable of defending herself.

But wait....Now I think I understand why you feel this need, pinky.

I see that your location is 'The Loony Bin'. Does this mean you talk to 'not living humans' as well?

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:56 pm

Glaswegian;465962 wrote: Why do you feel the need to defend koan? I'm quite sure she's capable of defending herself.

But wait....Now I think I understand why you feel this need, pinky.

I see that your location is 'The Loony Bin'. Does this mean you talk to 'not living humans' as well?

Actually we are lovers on the astral plane. We meet every night as wanton wisps and lick each other all over.

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:04 pm

koan;465963 wrote: Actually we are lovers on the astral plane. We meet every night as wanton wisps and lick each other all over.

Have I logged into the Perfumed Garden Forum by mistake?

weber · Post by **weber** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:04 pm

Originally Posted by weber

I and many others here are Christian...and we manage to get along. I personally wish you would leave... We're happy here.

Glaswegian;465906 wrote: In case you didn't know it, weber, this is a religious discussion forum. Not a Christian group grope.

You deliberately misquoted me. Note how you quoted me and the passage from my post and what you purposely removed for your purposes. I don't know the exact word but it is underhanded to quote somebody and change the quote. Go for it bud....you're on my list of ignore.

weber wrote: I don't know what you claim but I suspect it is not Christian. I and many others here are Christian and other religions or not and we manage to get along. You walked/typed into here demoralizing Christians and you complain that the Christians are demoralizing you. Do you think we should just take it lying down? You brand new walk in and knock us down and we're supposed to stay there because you think we are wrong. I personally, leaving beliefs out, wish you would leave because I have learned nothing from you, except perhaps in the study of people who are so unhappy that they try to make others unhappy. Forget it. We're happy here.

__________________

miriam

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:06 pm

Pinky;465965 wrote: As a matter of fact I do!

Lol, the loony bin is a bit of humour...I used to have 'the choccie cupboard' as my location, along with 'scaring the neighbours'...I just have a weird SOH!:wah:

Anyway, yes, I do get spoken to by others...sometimes I recognise this to be what some call a guide, the higher self - other times someone else entirely will pop up. I joke about being an eccentric, and that I am, but it doesn't mean that my experience isn't valid.

All I'm asking is that you have a bit of respect for other views.

Respect - Pinky.

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:16 pm

Pinky;465976 wrote: LMAO! Are you Ali G in your spare time?:wah:

You mean Ali Glaswegian?

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:30 pm

spot;465947 wrote: Ah. Light dawns. I didn't think we could be burned twice but it seems we can.

What I find slightly distasteful is that we're getting regurgitated posts, just as we did with TruthBringer. James has been hawking his bash-religion message around the Internet in exactly the same way, it's just our turn at the moment. http://www.shadowsinthecave.com/forums/ ... 4254bda471 shows him investing his time elsewhere. It's not surprising that he has extracts available which he can pre-quote from.

Why us, Lord? What did we do to upset you this badly?

Do we have to sit through "Christian Asceticism, Masochism and Power" as well, James? Or "Why God Owes All Masturbators An Apology"? Will you insist on imposing "What Were Jesus's Masturbatory Fantasies Like?" here as well? Have you had so little reaction to "Why Religion Is For Big Infants" in the past that you want to add it to ForumGarden next, along with "The Most Dangerous Myth In The World" and "Into That Darkness...The Mind Of The 'True Believer'"?

For those who want to encomatose themselves, the remainder of this drekk is at http://www.shadowsinthecave.com/forums/ ... .php?t=273 http://www.shadowsinthecave.com/forums/ ... .php?t=254 http://www.shadowsinthecave.com/forums/ ... .php?t=232 http://www.shadowsinthecave.com/forums/ ... c.php?t=97 - I'm not going to list the rest, it's interminable.

I call it an abuse of hospitality, James.

More to the point, if anyone else off-site has Google-searched for this monomaniac, congratulations. You can copy my complaint to your board as well. If James can't be bothered to say he's hawking used goods around, I don't see why you should either.

Thanks for providing the link to my posts in the 'shadows in the cave' forum, spot. You've saved me having to rewrite them in this one. I hope you enjoy reading them. And that goes for the other members of this forum as well. Visit the 'shadows' forum from time to time. It's worth the trouble. Because I'm going to be making more posts in it....

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:37 pm

Glaswegian;465991 wrote: Thanks for providing the link to my posts in the 'shadows in the cave' forum, spot. You've saved me having to rewrite them in this one. I hope you enjoy reading them. And that goes for the other members of this forum as well. Visit the 'shadows' forum from time to time. It's worth the trouble. Because I'm going to be making more posts in it....

off you go then, we know where to find you. so sad you won't be sticking around to explain your obsession with masturbation

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:43 pm

Glaswegian;465991 wrote: You've saved me having to rewrite them in this one.Hallelujah. No more copy/pastes? I'll watch, mind.

Where were we, then. I think we'd reached "Are there any other reasons beside religion which have resulted in abominations like those you've named, over the same time period? I'd like to find a common factor in the wider picture if we can focus on that".

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:43 pm

koan;466001 wrote: your obsession with masterbation

You mean - masturbation.

Interesting...er...'typing error', koan.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:47 pm

Glaswegian;466015 wrote: You mean - masturbation.

Interesting...er...'typing error', koan.

You're so predictable. Why don't you entertain yourself and go rent a copy of Bondage Bambi Does the The Ten Commanders?

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:56 pm

I'm off to sleep. Have a good night with yourself. :wah:

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:00 pm

koan;466027 wrote: You're so predictable. Why don't you entertain yourself and go rent a copy of Bondage Bambi Does the The Ten Commanders?

Because 'Bondage Bambi Does The Ten Commanders' is not as torrid as this thread, koan.

By the way, I'm surprised you didn't type 'Bondage Bambi Does The Ten Commandments'....purely by mistake, of course.

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:02 pm

Koan doesn't make mistakes. :wah:

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:04 pm

Glaswegian;466046 wrote: By the way, I'm surprised you didn't type 'Bondage Bambi Does The Ten Commandments'....purely by mistake, of course.You're projecting again. The former is an Amateur Asian production. The latter is just wishful thinking on your part.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:44 am

Glaswegian;466046 wrote: Because 'Bondage Bambi Does The Ten Commanders' is not as torrid as this thread, koan.

By the way, I'm surprised you didn't type 'Bondage Bambi Does The Ten Commandments'....purely by mistake, of course.

I'm sure this brings back fawned memories

Attached files

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:17 am

In the novel 1984, George Orwell identifies a virulent form of resistance which operates in the mind of an individual to protect him against any idea which threatens to unravel his delusional belief system. He calls this irrational resistance 'protective stupidity'. Orwell provides an excellent account of how protective stupidity works in his discussion of 'Crimestop'. He writes:

'Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to [one's belief system], and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of heading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity.'

Thus, protective stupidity is at bottom a form of self-deception, a form of dishonesty. And it is all too evident in many of the responses made to my posts by members of this forum. The following are just a few examples of protective stupidity selected from this thread:

koan wrote: I'm sorry but I don't yet see your argument

spot wrote: I did read your argument, tedious though it was. It bored me sideways.

Ted wrote: what I see from Glas. is nothing more than verbal diarrhea which I really found boring

weber wrote: unintelligible thoughts

koan wrote: you make yourself hard to read

weber wrote: I find your approach demeaning and rather devoid of sense

Sheryl wrote: sorry must have missed it while I was trying to understand all the other garbage you had posted

weber wrote: I personally...wish you would leave because I have learned nothing from you

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:02 am

Glaswegian, your selection of quotes was brilliant. You've summarized this thread succinctly and spared all newcomers the agony of having to go back and read it. Time well spent on other things.

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:24 am

spot;465761 wrote: I remember spending a few days on business in Glasgow with a local guy called George....You remind me of him. Someone may have loved him - his mother, perhaps - but I certainly didn't. He stands out in my memory even now as "that tosser from Glasgow".

Do you know where this anger of yours is coming from, spot? Do you know what its real roots are? I think you do. I think you know deep inside what it really signifies. But in order to bring its real meaning to consciousness, in order to recognise it fully and truthfully for what it is, you would have to confront yourself. And this requires moral courage, doesn't it? Do you have the moral courage to do this, spot - to face yourself and the terrible truth which lies inside you? To grasp it in all its naked horror? In that case let me ask you bluntly:

Were you forced as a young child to watch your father taking a bath?

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:54 am

User Guide for this thread:

Go to "My Settings", click on "Buddy / Ignore Lists" on the side panel.

Under "Ignore List" type "Glaswegian" into the box and click "Save List"

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:08 am

koan;466392 wrote: User Guide for this thread:

Go to "My Settings", click on "Buddy / Ignore Lists" on the side panel.

Under "Ignore List" type "Glaswegian" into the box and click "Save List"

Thus spake koanayatollah.

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:50 am

Glaswegian;466373 wrote: Do you know where this anger of yours is coming from, spot? Do you know what its real roots are? I think you do. I think you know deep inside what it really signifies. But in order to bring its real meaning to consciousness, in order to recognise it fully and truthfully for what it is, you would have to confront yourself. And this requires moral courage, doesn't it? Do you have the moral courage to do this, spot - to face yourself and the terrible truth which lies inside you? To grasp it in all its naked horror? In that case let me ask you bluntly:

Were you forced as a young child to watch your father taking a bath?That's humour? It has nothing reprehensible or unsavoury about it?

I'm finally getting the point about your masturbatory obsessions, at least. Just replying to this post makes my skin creep. Maggot-infested binbags would have much the same effect.

That's enough of you, I think. Life has far greater treats in store than watching you excite yourself in public. Eww, as they say nowadays. Crawly.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:13 am

Glaswegian;466400 wrote: Thus spake koanayatollah.
Watch out Koan I think Glas is just lookin to get a reach around from you.

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:54 pm

spot;466412 wrote: That's enough of you, I think.

You think? Why are you unsure about this, spot? Why do you only think you have had enough of me? Does this mean perhaps that there is a part of you that wants more?

spot wrote: Life has far greater treats in store than watching you excite yourself in public.

No doubt it has. But at least you found me a treat. Didn't you, spot? I mean, you didn't say: 'Life has far greater things in store than watching [me] excite [myself] in public'. No. You said: 'Life has far greater treats in store....' Why did you describe watching me excite myself in public as a "treat"?

It's okay, spot. I already know.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:24 pm

What bull ****. I can't be bothered wasting time on this foolishness.

Ted

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:01 am

Ted;467086 wrote: What bull ****. I can't be bothered wasting time on this foolishness.

Ted

That wasn't what you wrote in your original post, Ted, was it? What you wrote was this:

Ted wrote: What bull****.

Then several minutes later you appended the following statement to it:

Ted wrote: I can't be bothered wasting time on this foolishness.

Therefore, you altered your original post from this:

Ted wrote: What bull****

To this:

Ted wrote: What bull****. I can't be bothered wasting time on this foolishness

Now, you have the privilege of editing your posts, Ted. But I don't. So, if you don't mind, I'm going to respond to your post in its original form. But first let me remind the members of this forum what you posted earlier in this thread - back in post #47. What you posted then was this:

Ted wrote: I'm not in the least bit interested in playing with verbal diarrhea

But if you're not interested in playing with verbal diarrhea - as you call it - Ted, then why did you jump in to this thread again with the following post?:

Ted wrote: What bull****

Clearly you decided to play with verbal diarrhea after all, didn't you Ted? You couldn't help yourself, could you? But no sooner had you wallowed in this diarrhea than you felt ashamed. You wanted to get out fast. You needed to salvage your 'dignity'. You needed to pretend that you were above this diarrhea. And that's why you hastily added that statement onto your original post. That's why you wrote:

Ted wrote: I can't be bothered wasting time on this foolishness

By the way, Ted, given the scatological nature of your comments thus far in this thread you should feel right at home here. Right at home in this diarrhea. So stop kidding yourself. Come...Ha ha ha...clean with yourself.

weinbeck · Post by **weinbeck** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:23 pm

Glaswegian;458811 wrote: Lurking at the back of the Christian's mind is a terrible suspicion which must be blocked from his conscious awareness at all costs: namely, the suspicion that when he talks to Jesus he is only talking to another part of himself. The Christian's secret suspicion is correct. Let me explain....

When the Christian talks to Jesus he is really carrying out an internal dialogue with himself. That is, he splits one part of his self off, calls it 'Jesus', and then puts words into its mouth. The Christian's conversations with Jesus are really a form of religious ventriloquism: and deep down he knows this because, like every other ventriloquist's dummy, the Jesus dummy never answers the Christian back. The Christian must do its talking for it.

When the Christian talks to Jesus what he is actually doing is no different from what Norman Bates did in the film Psycho. Norman kept the mother he loved and worshipped 'alive' by pretending that one part of his personality was her. Thus, to make Jesus believable, to make this fantasy-figure seem real and plausible, the Christian's personality must undergo a form of schizophrenic splitting similar to Norman's in order to keep Jesus 'alive' in the fruit-cellar of his mind.

Another way to understand the Christian's 'relationship' with Jesus is to think of Jesus as the Christian's imaginary play-friend. As is well known, many children invent an imaginary play-friend - a play-friend whom no one else can see - when they feel lonely, abandoned, vulnerable, troubled, and when no one in the world seems to understand or care about them. In the eyes of the child, as is also well known, the imaginary play-friend can do anything and is always there to talk to, to listen, and to share worries, sorrows and joys with, and even to lend advice. But there is a difference between the imaginary play-friend invented by the child and the one the Christian has called 'Jesus'. And the difference is this: Whereas the child is extraordinarily creative with regard to his imaginary play-friend inasmuch as he fashions the latter's mind and character all by himself using his own inner resources, the Christian is not so creative since the mind and character of his imaginary play-friend come ready-made for him by his religion. Needless to say, when the child matures and grows more confident and secure in himself his imaginary play-friend disappears from his life. But the Christian remains dependent on his imaginary play-friend even as an adult and never emerges from his infantile fantasy until he abandons his religion.

The schizophrenic splitting of the personality which underpins the Christian's 'relationship' with Jesus also underpins the Muslim's 'relationship' with Allah, the Jew's 'relationship' with Jehovah, the Catholic's 'relationship' with the Virgin Mary, etc. - but here I'm telling the rational person something he already knows.

Regards

James

Clever man - you seem to have all the answers already worked out. I wonder if you'll be so clever or self-satisfied when you meet Jesus face to face. Do I pray to nothing? Are they just all empty words? If I am being conned - if this religion that ZILLIONS of people the world over accept as their faith, who turn to their personal Guide and Saviour in their daily lives is no more than talking through one's personal problems oneself are being taken for a ride, then I am a very HAPPY man. I am happy being conned. Because this "imaginary playfriend" as you put it has helped me through crisis after chrisis these past four years.

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:58 pm

Glaswegian;458811 wrote: When the Christian talks to Jesus he is really carrying out an internal dialogue with himself. That is, he splits one part of his self off, calls it 'Jesus', and then puts words into its mouth. The Christian's conversations with Jesus are really a form of religious ventriloquism: and deep down he knows this because, like every other ventriloquist's dummy, the Jesus dummy never answers the Christian back. The Christian must do its talking for it.

In the OP I argued that the Christian's 'relationship' with Jesus is entirely bogus because Jesus has no reality separate from the Christian, that Jesus is only a projection of the Christian's own personality, a fantasy-figure which his self manufactures out of itself.

In her book A Mind Of Its Own: How Your Brain Distorts And Deceives the psychologist, Cordelia Fine, describes an experiment which throws some light on the process of self-deception which underpins the Christian's 'relationship' with Jesus. The experiment was as follows:

~o0o~

'Subjects were given a test with a hundred general knowledge questions to answer. Sneakingly scattered among the test questions were twenty questions to which there was no answer. (For example, What is the name of the only cat species native to Australia? What is the name of the legendary floating island in ancient Greece? What is the last name of the only woman to sign the Declaration Of Independence?) On about twenty per cent of these unanswerable questions subjects claimed to be on the verge of dredging up the answers. They knew the answer was in their mind somewhere. It was on the tip of their tongue.'

~o0o~

What this experiment shows is how easily we can deceive ourselves into believing that we are acquainted with something which doesn't exist - in this case, knowledge. The Christian's 'relationship' with Jesus rests on a similar piece of self-deception. In the Christian's case, the thing he deceives himself into believing that he is acquainted with - but which doesn't exist - is Jesus.

BH672 · Post by **BH672** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:10 pm

Glaswegian;573095 wrote: In her book A Mind Of Its Own: How Your Brain Distorts And Deceives the psychologist, Cordelia Fine, describes an experiment which throws some light on the process of self-deception which underpins the Christian's 'relationship' with Jesus.

Is it possible that you are challenging the Deluded Brain out of your Bigoted Brain?

;)

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:44 am

HERE IS WISDOM

The Christian who is capable of some degree of insight has only to put the following question to himself in order to realise that his 'relationship' with Jesus is a self-deception: Why is it that Jesus never talks to me when I'm taking a sh*t?