Double standards of Bush adminstration

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:15 pm

Today's newspapers in India are full of stories about Bush administration adopting double standards and refusing entry to the Chief Minister of an Indian State, Gujrat. The Chief Minister has commented that "It is a matter of India's prestige and sovereignty. If an Ameriacan wants to come to India, are we going to deny him visa because of what they did in Iraq".

India's foreign ministry's spokesman has said that "The action is uncalled for and displays lack of courtesy and sensitivity towards an elected chief minister of a state of India".

India's ruling party's spokesman said that "India will feel strongly when a CM is denied visa".

I am an Indian citizen and feel hurt and insulted at double standards being adopted by Bush administration and forcing its own laws on my country. After creating situations where lakhs of innocent people have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq Bush administration is now in the process of hurting Indians.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:57 pm

Suresh Gupta wrote: Today's newspapers in India are full of stories about Bush administration adopting double standards and refusing entry to the Chief Minister of an Indian State, Gujrat. The Chief Minister has commented that "It is a matter of India's prestige and sovereignty. If an Ameriacan wants to come to India, are we going to deny him visa because of what they did in Iraq".

India's foreign ministry's spokesman has said that "The action is uncalled for and displays lack of courtesy and sensitivity towards an elected chief minister of a state of India".

India's ruling party's spokesman said that "India will feel strongly when a CM is denied visa".

I am an Indian citizen and feel hurt and insulted at double standards being adopted by Bush administration and forcing its own laws on my country. After creating situations where lakhs of innocent people have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq Bush administration is now in the process of hurting Indians.
It's just not the Bush Admistration Suresh. The U.S. has a history of adopting what could be called a Double Standard on a number of things.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:20 am

Why are they refusing entry?

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:25 pm

gmc wrote: Why are they refusing entry?

Perhaps it is their way of telling other countries that we rule the world - relations on our terms or else you will be put to all sort of indignities; we can even strip you at our airports, we an attack you if you do not fall in line with us........ There can be many reasons.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:39 pm

Godiva Girl wrote: That's the Bush administration for you. I am not surprised at all by this and I don't blame you for feeling insulted. I do not know much about India and it's relationship with the U.S., if we are on good terms with India then there is no reason for the Chief Minister to be denied a visa. Look at all the terrorists and criminals from other countries that have been given visas by the U.S. and they were not elected officials. Also, the U. S. has enough countries disliking us due to the Bush administration. The last thing the U.S. needs is to be on bad terms with another country. Unfortunately, that is something the Bush administration is not wise enough to think of.

Yes dear.

The explanation given by Mulford, US Ambassador, has been termed as wrong by BJP, the ruling party in Gujrat. BJP has said that US has taken this action without any basis.

Rather than expressing regret over this, US is saying that this insult to a democratically elected constiutional CM of an state of India will have no effect on Indo-US relations. What can be more absurd than this - US keep on insulting Indians and their country but Indians should maintain good relations with US.

Is there any difference between suicide attacks by Islamic Jehadis killing innocent people and attack on other countries by US killing innocent people? Sometimes I am confused to decide who is the bigger terrorist.

chicagolosina · Post by **chicagolosina** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:02 am

I wasn't aware that a Chief Minister needed a visa to go anywhere. I thought they would have Diplomatic passports?

I haven't heard about this over here either..imagine the uproar if an American politician was denied a visa to any country in the world...it would be all over CNN.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:15 am

chicagolosina wrote: I wasn't aware that a Chief Minister needed a visa to go anywhere. I thought they would have Diplomatic passports?

I haven't heard about this over here either..imagine the uproar if an American politician was denied a visa to any country in the world...it would be all over CNN.

He has a diplomatic passport but to go to a country he needs visa.

The Chief Minister is also emphasizing on this point that for crimes in Iraq India should also deny visa to American politicans. I support him on this as it is the only way third-world countries can force US adminstration to mand its double tandards.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:18 am

Suresh Gupta wrote: He has a diplomatic passport but to go to a country he needs visa.

The Chief Minister is also emphasizing on this point that for crimes in Iraq India should also deny visa to American politicans. I support him on this as it is the only way third-world countries can force US adminstration to mand its double tandards.
what crimes are you referring to?

you realize that the majority of iraqi citizens are *glad* we invaded. we ousted a vicious dictator. was the pretext for war based on faulty intelligence? yes. is that a crime? no.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:58 am

anastrophe wrote: what crimes are you referring to?

you realize that the majority of iraqi citizens are *glad* we invaded. we ousted a vicious dictator. was the pretext for war based on faulty intelligence? yes. is that a crime? no.

Killing innocent people (for whatever reasons) is the crime I am referring to. There was a Hindu-Muslim riot in Gujrat. Many innocent people were killed. Human rights activists blame the CM for this as in their pinion CM should have controlled these riots without loss of any life. US administration picks up a report of these activists and denies the visa to CM.

Now US administration attacks Iraq and many innocent people are killed. If US has reasons for attacking Iraq then Indian CM also has reasons. US says Iraq had WMDs and was posing a threat to the interests of US. CM says that he had taken action and controlled the riots but as the riots suddenly flared up many lives were lost. If he had not taken these actions many more lives would have been lost.

May be many Iraqi citizens are glad but here also many people are glad whose relatives were killed by Muslims by burning a train compartments full of Hindus, the inident which sparked the riots.

Now is it not adopting double standards?

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:44 pm

US administration does it again.

Noted Shia scholar and senior member of the All India Muslim Personal Law Board, Maulana Kalbe Sadiq, found himself almost thrown out of the US recently, while two other clerics were denied entry. These clerics had gone to US to attend a religious function. Few days back, citing religious freedom laws the US had denied visa to Chief Minister of a state of India. And now US denies entry to muslim clerics who had gone to US to attend a religious function.

Another instance of US practicing double standards.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:00 pm

List of human rights violations by US administration is getting larger day-by-day. I wish that third world countries of the world unite against US committing any more human rights violations. I know it is a wish which is not likely to be granted in near future but I wish to continue making this wish and pray to God to grant it.

US sells F-16s to Pakistan and proposes to sell F-18s to India. What is the objective - preparing them for war? At one moment US adminstration cautions India and Pakistan to excecise restrain and keep away from war; and at another moment it sells them fighter planes and other war materials. Are these not double standards? And idiots sitting in power in both countries allow their countries to be exploited by US adminstration. Instead of providing a better life to their people these power hungry politicians are wasting precious public money on bying war materials. Shame to them for being power hungry and shame to double standards of US administration.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:09 pm

Bush selling warplanes to nations with an unstable relationship is nothing new to the imperialist capitalists that profit from death and war. The U.S. bankrolled Iran's brutal Shah, then financed Saddam during the bloody war between the two countries that cost upwards of a million lives. The Bush Mafia is in bed not only with the petroleum industry but with defense/offense contractors that profit from global chaos. U.S. soldiers are routinely used as guard dogs for contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan. And the American people re-elect the corporate theives.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:14 pm

Godiva Girl wrote: It's all about control. The US controls and uses other countries like chess pieces depending on what the US needs them to do at any given time.

A super power induging in having controls over other countries through double standards is not good for world peace.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:16 pm

David813 wrote: Bush selling warplanes to nations with an unstable relationship is nothing new to the imperialist capitalists that profit from death and war. The U.S. bankrolled Iran's brutal Shah, then financed Saddam during the bloody war between the two countries that cost upwards of a million lives. The Bush Mafia is in bed not only with the petroleum industry but with defense/offense contractors that profit from global chaos. U.S. soldiers are routinely used as guard dogs for contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan. And the American people re-elect the corporate theives.

It is most unfortunate. There are no doubt other human ways of making a living.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:25 pm

The absolute ignorance of the American people will come with a price I believe. It's the only way they'll learn. At least you are in a BlueState!!!!

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:33 pm

Godiva Girl wrote: I agree with you 100%, I cannot understand why anyone would vote for Bush, his agenda is so obvious

Perhaps insecurity in American people after 9/11.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:35 pm

Godiva Girl wrote: I have a strong feeling that we may never have world peace. Which is sad

It is sad indeed.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:38 pm

Suresh Gupta wrote: Killing innocent people (for whatever reasons) is the crime I am referring to. There was a Hindu-Muslim riot in Gujrat. Many innocent people were killed. Human rights activists blame the CM for this as in their pinion CM should have controlled these riots without loss of any life. US administration picks up a report of these activists and denies the visa to CM.

Now US administration attacks Iraq and many innocent people are killed. If US has reasons for attacking Iraq then Indian CM also has reasons. US says Iraq had WMDs and was posing a threat to the interests of US. CM says that he had taken action and controlled the riots but as the riots suddenly flared up many lives were lost. If he had not taken these actions many more lives would have been lost.

May be many Iraqi citizens are glad but here also many people are glad whose relatives were killed by Muslims by burning a train compartments full of Hindus, the inident which sparked the riots.

Now is it not adopting double standards?

US says denial of visa to Modi based on NHRC's findings

Throwing the ball in India's court, the US has said its decision to deny visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi was based on the findings of the National Human Rights Commission that his state administration "failed" to control "persistent violations of rights".

"It's a matter of the United States responding to a finding by the Indian National Human Rights Commission pointing to comprehensive failure on the part of the state government of Gujarat to control persistent violations of rights," State Department deputy spokesman Adam Ereli told reporters in Washington.

"The fact of the matter is that it was the Indians who investigated the riots and it was the Indian government who determined that state institutions failed to act in a way that would prevent violence and would prevent religious persecution," he said.

Reacting strongly to "uncalled for" decision to deny diplomatic visa to and revoke tourist/business visa of Modi, a constitutionally elected chief minister, India on Friday asked the US to review its decision urgently.

Modi was earlier scheduled to leave on a five-day visit to the US on Saturday to attend an event organised by the Asian-American Hotel Owners Association.

Ereli said US officials made two determinations based on the NHRC's findings. "Number one, we determined that (on) an application for a diplomatic visa to come to the United States, the terms for issuing that visa under US law had not been met, and so we decided not to issue the visa, based on US law and based on findings of fact by the Indian National [Human Rights] Commission.

"And number two, we determined that an existing visa that Mr Modi had -- an existing tourist/ business visa -- should be revoked under Section 212(a)(2)(G) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, which says that any foreign government official who is responsible for or directly carried out at any time particularly severe violations of religious freedom should not be eligible for a visa."

When asked why the existing visa, which was cancelled, was given in the first place, Ereli said it was granted to Modi "before the events of 2002 (Gujarat riots); that is my understanding."

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:39 pm

Suresh Gupta wrote: Perhaps insecurity in American people after 9/11.

We have many many more enemies since 9/11. The arrogance and corrupt policies of the Bush Mafia have made the entire world more unstable than at anytime since WW2. The world needs a new superpower to balance the junta in Washington. A Russia/China/India alliance against U.S. imperialism would put Old Gory in it's place and save many lives. The U.S. has never stood up to an enemy it's own size before.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:43 pm

David813 wrote: We have many many more enemies since 9/11. The arrogance and corrupt policies of the Bush Mafia have made the entire world more unstable than at anytime since WW2. The world needs a new superpower to balance the junta in Washington. A Russia/China/India alliance against U.S. imperialism would put Old Gory in it's place and save many lives. The U.S. has never stood up to an enemy it's own size before.

Ain't Kansas in the USA?

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:48 pm

BTS wrote: Ain't Kansas in the USA?
It sure is. Kansas City is in Missouri though. It's called "Dissent." Something discouraged these days under the theocons in DC. It was cool in the 60's & 70's but no more dissent! The Prophet Bush says so! The Patriot Acts and the tool they use called FEAR of TERRORISM will keep us all in line! But there are dissenters like me sprinkled everywhere. Even in the heart of the world's new Roman Empire.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:22 pm

BTS wrote: US says denial of visa to Modi based on NHRC's findings.

Throwing the ball in India's court, the US has said its decision to deny visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi was based on the findings of the National Human Rights Commission that his state administration "failed" to control "persistent violations of rights".

"It's a matter of the United States responding to a finding by the Indian National Human Rights Commission pointing to comprehensive failure on the part of the state government of Gujarat to control persistent violations of rights," State Department deputy spokesman Adam Ereli told reporters in Washington.

"The fact of the matter is that it was the Indians who investigated the riots and it was the Indian government who determined that state institutions failed to act in a way that would prevent violence and would prevent religious persecution," he said.

It is yet another case of US adopting double standards. The first reason given by US was a US law relating to human rights and religious freedom. But when Modi called the US bluff that for crimes in Iraq Bush should be denied visa when he intends to visit India, US came up with this reason.

No investigation report or an Indian Court has so far held Modi responsible for Gujrat riots. Let me ask, if Indian NHRC sends a report to US holding Bush responsible for the killing of thousands of innocent people in Iraq would US adminstration take action against Bush?

Reacting strongly to "uncalled for" decision to deny diplomatic visa to and revoke tourist/business visa of Modi, a constitutionally elected chief minister, India on Friday asked the US to review its decision urgently.

Modi was earlier scheduled to leave on a five-day visit to the US on Saturday to attend an event organised by the Asian-American Hotel Owners Association.

Ereli said US officials made two determinations based on the NHRC's findings. "Number one, we determined that (on) an application for a diplomatic visa to come to the United States, the terms for issuing that visa under US law had not been met, and so we decided not to issue the visa, based on US law and based on findings of fact by the Indian National [Human Rights] Commission.

"And number two, we determined that an existing visa that Mr Modi had -- an existing tourist/ business visa -- should be revoked under Section 212(a)(2)(G) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, which says that any foreign government official who is responsible for or directly carried out at any time particularly severe violations of religious freedom should not be eligible for a visa."

When asked why the existing visa, which was cancelled, was given in the first place, Ereli said it was granted to Modi "before the events of 2002 (Gujarat riots); that is my understanding."

This is how US adminstration justifies its double standards. Is there any element of natural justice in US law? Does US law punishes people of crimes blamed on them by others without seeking their views about the crimes for which they are being blamed?

And why US adminstration did not cancel tourist/business visa (granted before Gujrat riots happened) just after the riots? Why now when Modi applies for a diplomatic visa? Was US law not existing at that time or this law comes in to existence only when NHRC report was received by US adminstration.

Adam Ereli speaks on behalf of US administration simply based on his understanding and not the facts officially known by him. Does it not convey that US has taken this action without any basis and thought; and now when it has become a hot issue its officials are talking in circles.

And what is the meaning of Government of India asking the US to review its decision urgently? Democratically elected government of a democratic country has riased objection to US action. Does it not say except that US has adopted double standards and India is strongly opposed to it.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:46 am

Just For you Compassionate Democrats:

How We Made U.S.Deny Visa To Modi

By Angana Chatterji

22 March, 2005

Asian Age

Nishrin Hussain lives in the United States. She is the daughter of Ahsanhusain A. Jafri of Gujarat, former Member of Parliament, who was tortured, decapitated, and murdered in 2002. The events of Gujarat 2002 have placed Nishrin in exile. Zaheera Sheik, who experienced the trauma of her familyÃƒ¢Ã¢š¬Ã¢ž¢s murder and was present for the Best Bakery ordeal, was coerced and intimidated by the Sangh Parivar. Bilkis Yakoob Rasool (Bilkis Bano) of Randhikpur village was gang-raped. She was five months pregnant at the time of her rape and lost 14 family members, including her three-year-old child, mother, and two sisters. Since then, she has been forced to move 20 times due to threats against her. These and other women of Gujarat live and relive the violence of 2002, their families and futures devastated.

Such realities compelled the formation of the Coalition Against Genocide (CAG). CAG was formed in February 2005 to protest the planned business visit to the US in March 2005 of Narendra Modi, the chief minister of Gujarat, and demand accountability and justice in response to the Gujarat genocide. CAG is a spectrum of 38 organisations and 10 supporting groups, and individuals, across the US and Canada (www.coalitionagainstgenocide.org). CAG utilises several avenues, including grassroots mobilisation, e-mail, phone and fax campaigns, public demonstrations, and draws from various constituencies students, those self-employed, professionals, academics, artists, people of/from India, and allies. CAG is comprised of Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, and those who profess other faiths or none. CAG challenges Modi supporters, primarily upper-caste Hindus, in the US who claim to represent Hindus and India, and others guided into buttressing Hindutva, "Hindu Tatva" Ã¢â‚¬ "Hindu principles," Nazi inspired, advocated by Hindu extremist groups dedicated to promoting a Hindu rashtra (theocracy) in India.

The Association of Indian Americans of North America (AINA) invited Narendra Modi to New York on March 20. Sangh members in the US formed AINA for this purpose. The Asian American Hotel Owners Association (AAHOA) invited Modi as chief guest for their annual convention in Florida on March 24-26. CAG called on Chris Matthews, host of Hardball, MSNBC, to decline the invitation to speak at the AAHOA Convention, and American Express to rescind its sponsorship of AAHOA. On March 8, Chris Matthews withdrew from the AAHOA event, giving up an estimated professional fee of thousands. The Institute on Religion and Public Policy wrote to secretary of state Condoleezza Rice, some CAG members lobbied with Capitol Hill, and 125 South Asia Studies and other faculty in the US wrote to the state department, the House and Senate Foreign Relations Committees, and the United Nations, to decline Modi's visa. Disturbingly, Modi was also invited to inaugurate the Yadunandan Centre for India Studies at the Asian and Asian American Studies Department of California State University at Long Beach on March 22, demonstrating once again the infiltration of Hindu nationalists into the academy. Again, 135 faculty wrote to the university asking it to rescind Modi's invitation. Uka Solanki, a Gujarati businessman and recipient of the 2005 Global Organisation of People of Indian Origins Pravasi Bharatiya Community Service Award, has given a large donation to the Asian American Studies Department and to the Centre for India Studies. University spokespersons so far have commented only that the request for Modi to inaugurate the Centre came from some donors.

Former President of India, K.R. Narayanan, recently testified to a "conspiracy" between the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) governments in New Delhi and Gujarat, where between February 28 and March 2, 2002, under Narendra Modi's leadership, Hindu nationalists perpetrated an event distinctive in the movements malevolent reach for a Hindu state. In 16 of Gujarat's 24 districts, 2,000 people, mostly Muslims, were killed, 200,000 were internally displaced. In many districts, the violence continued beyond those three unimaginable days into April and May. Over 100,000 homes, thousands of hotels and establishments were damaged or destroyed. Relief camps were attacked at night. Narendra Modi and the Gujarat government enabled the genocidal violence. Appointed in 2001, Modi contested election as chief minister in December 2002, and won, in the climate of terror that prevailed in Hindu nationalist ruled Gujarat. An economic boycott against the Muslim community continues; 239 Muslims and one Sikh remain detained under Prevention Of Terrorism Act (Pota) even as the Indian Parliament repealed Pota in December 2004.

The events of February 28-March 2, 2002 constitute genocide under the United Nations Genocide Convention. Modi and the Gujarat government face charges for crimes against humanity and genocide. Inquiries and commissions, including the Indian National Human Rights Commission, have condemned Modi's role in the politically motivated attacks on minorities. The interim report from the Justice U.C. Banerjee Commission has concluded that the fire in coach S-6 of the Sabarmati Express on February 27, resulting in the deaths of 59 people, was an accident and not a "terrorist" attack on Hindu pilgrims as claimed by those who organised the carnage that followed.

Three years later, the survivors still await justice and reparations. Even as Muslims were the primary targets of violence in 2002, Christians were attacked and robbed during the post-Godhra riots. For those targeted, including dalits and adivasis, Narendra Modi, the architect of the state organised pogrom, is a monster whose words and deeds have endorsed rapes, the forced abortion of foetuses and their display on trishuls, brutalities that irrevocably scar the present. More than 2,000 of 4,000 cases filed by the victims were never investigated or dismissed, leading the Supreme Court of India to transfer several out of the state. On February 23, 2005, an Ahmedabad court sentenced three persons to four years imprisonment for stabbing to death Naseembibi Safar Ali, a pregnant woman, onFebruary 28, 2002, in Madhavpura, Ahmedabad. To find the male perpetrators guilty of murder and punish them with four-year sentences makes a mockery of justice and aligns the state, once again, with the sexualised violence that was Gujarat in 2002.

Modi is a pracharak (proselytiser) for the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the xenophobic Hindu fundamentalist organisation, which, along with other Hindu extremist groups, receives funds from the US and UK. ModiÃƒ¢Ã¢š¬Ã¢ž¢s current trip to the US would have been a fundraising event. Sudhir Parikh, a prominent Indian and Sangh Parivar affiliate living in the US, invited Modi in 2004. Parikh is on the board of the Indian American National Foundation, an umbrella organisation of AAHOA, American Association of Physicians of Indian Origin, National Federation of Indian American Associations, and Indian American Forum for Political Education. Other Hindu nationalists associated with hosting Modi's New York visit include Suresh Jani, former secretary, Overseas Friends of the BJP (OFBJP); Ved Nanda, Sanghchalak (chief), Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh, the overseas wing of the RSS, and former president of Friends of India Society International; and Mukund Mody, founder and former President of the OFBJP (www.narendramodi.net/agenda.htm). Research undertaken by two independent groups, the Campaign to Stop Funding Hate and South Asia Watch Limited, demonstrate the linkages between money raised in the US and UK and Hindu fundamentalism in India, yet little has been done to curtail fundraising for hate.

There has been bi-partisan support in the US for human rights in Gujarat. Former President Clinton condemned the events in Gujarat. In 2002, Congressman Joseph Pitts (Republican-Pennsylvania) condemned the premeditated brutality and cited insufficient action on the part of the US. Congressman Pitts also conveyed that Hindu extremist groups receive some of their funds from charities in the US. In 2003 and 2004, the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom recommended that India be designated a "Country of Particular Concern." On March 15, 2005, House Resolution 156 was introduced in the United States Congress by Congressperson John Conyers, ranking Democrat (Michigan), House Judiciary Committee, and Dean, Congressional Black Caucus, and Congressperson Pitts, member, India Caucus and the Congressional Human Rights Caucus, "condemning the conduct of Chief Minister Narendra Modi for his actions to incite religious persecution and urging the United States to condemn all violations of religious freedom in India." On March 18, Modi was denied a diplomatic visa under Section 214(b) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) by the US embassy in New Delhi, as this was not a diplomatic visit, and his tourist and business visa was revoked under INA Section 212(a)(2)(G), "as an official responsible for carrying out severe violations of religious freedom," under Section 3 of the International Religious Freedom Act of 1998. Following this, AAHOA has withdrawn Modi's invitation, and American Express has cancelled $150,000 in sponsorship money.

In response, militant workers of the Bajrang Dal set fire to a PepsiCo warehouse in Surat. Other acts of arson and aggression will likely follow. The Indian government must stop the cycle of violence and refuse to be held captive by Hindu nationalists. The Congress government has elected to interpret Washington's decision as "anti-India." How is upholding religious freedom, rule of law, and accountability in governance contrary to the interests of the nation? While the US continues to violate the rights of citizens in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere, in this instance, WashingtonÃƒ¢Ã¢š¬Ã¢ž¢s decision is supportive of human rights.

Indian jurist L.M. Singhvi has alleged that the US denied and revoked Narendra Modi's visa without due process of law. It should be incumbent on the government of India to initiate due process of law investigating Modi's role in executing the Gujarat massacre, as individual and chief minister of Gujarat. That Narendra Modi was denied a visa, that his active involvement in crimes against humanity has been officially noted, is something to celebrate. The larger task remains to hold accountable Narendra Modi, who has committed genocide.

Angana Chatterji is associate professor of Anthropology at California Institute of Integral Studies, and member, Coalition Against Genocide

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:39 am

.

(Letter by a former chief of the Indian navy to India's Prime Minister, following the Communal riots in Gujarat)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE GUJARAT TRAGEDY

It is indeed with a heavy heart that I write to my Prime Minister at this time. The recent happenings in Gujarat have completely shaken my confidence in the Government and its capacity to uphold and protect a democratic and secular India.

.................

Full story here:

You know It %$&*^& amazes me when I see you Bush Bashers post something you know nuttin about.

If BC would have done this you would have applauded him as the "GREAT HUMANS RIGHT PRESIDENT" But anything Bush does you oppose.

I Recomend you read this report:

An inquiry into the carnage in Gujarat Vol I

An inquiry into the carnage in Gujarat Vol II

Then come back here and tell me what a SOB Bush is to deny this POOR man his god given right to enter the USA anytime he wants.......

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:18 am

BTS wrote: ......... You know It %$&*^& amazes me when I see you Bush Bashers post something you know nuttin about.

If BC would have done this you would have applauded him as the "GREAT HUMANS RIGHT PRESIDENT" But anything Bush does you oppose.

..........

No, I am not a Bush basher. I have nothing to do with him. He is the democratically elected president of a democratic country. It is none of my business to bother about what sort of administration he provides to his country. But when he and his administration interfere in the matters of my country he becomes my business. I have full right to criticize him for his interference in my country's affairs. I have full right to expose his double standards.

I support what the Navy officer has written - "It is indeed with a heavy heart that I write to my Prime Minister at this time. The recent happenings in Gujarat have completely shaken my confidence in the Government and its capacity to uphold and protect a democratic and secular India." The Gujrat incident is really a sad happening and it should have been avoided. But if the CM of that state is to be held responsible for that then Bush should also be held responsible for bigger crimes. This is where US is playing as per double standards.

You amaze me by saying that I know nothing about it. I am an Indian and Gujrat is a state of my country. Its people are my people. And I do not need any reports to understand what has happened.

I say that what treatment US administration has given to Modi, same treatment should be given to US leaders they wish to come to India. I also know that my government will not do it and I will be totally disappointed with those power hungry politicians. But one thing you and other people should understand that people like me do not welcome Bush or other US officials to my country.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:41 am

Suresh Gupta wrote: But one thing you and other people should understand that people like me do not welcome Bush or other US officials to my country.

Spread love not hate

Suresh Gupta

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:11 pm

BTS wrote: Spread love not hate

Suresh Gupta

You are right BTS. I do not hate Bush. I like american people. In fact I love all irespective of their country, race. religion. thought process ..... But it is my duty to express my views to tell some people that they are expected to be sincere and generous in their approach towards others, and this includes everybody even myself.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:20 pm

Wow. Talk about double standards...in the application of facts! Suresh, you seem to have made a mistake. Your words of compassion and love at the end here are almost funny in retrospect of all the earlier postings.

Post by **kensloft** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:24 pm

Suresh, I would like to say that you are doing a 180 degree turnabout but that wouldn't be true. You have this knack and ability to make a complete 360 degree turnaround and make it seem as if it is wisdom. Grow up and fly right.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:06 pm

Dear Koan and Kensloft,

How and why do you say that?

Having compassion and love does not mean accepting and not protesting wrongs being done by some people to the human beings. If innocent human beings are killed in India in a communal clash I feel sad and do all in my power to correct the wrong. Similarly I feel sad when innocent human beings are killed in a war imposed by one country on another. But when the country responsible for so much killing defends itself and practice double standards I protest. And I think it is not only my right but duty also. Doing so does not come in conflict with my compassion and love for human beins.

Koan, my words of compassion and love at the end of the referred mesage are not funny in retrospect of all the earlier messages. Rather ir enforces what I have said earlier. And Kensloft, there are no 180 or 360 degree turnaround. It is a simple belief and practice thereof. Please try to understand what I am trying to convey.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:41 pm

Suresh Gupta wrote: List of human rights violations by US administration is getting larger day-by-day. I wish that third world countries of the world unite against US committing any more human rights violations. I know it is a wish which is not likely to be granted in near future but I wish to continue making this wish and pray to God to grant it.

and india commits none?????????

right,,,,,,?

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:55 pm

Suresh Gupta wrote: List of human rights violations by US administration is getting larger day-by-day. I wish that third world countries of the world unite against US committing any more human rights violations. I know it is a wish which is not likely to be granted in near future but I wish to continue making this wish and pray to God to grant it.

OK PAL LETS LOOK AT YOUR COUNTRY...........List of human rights violations by your ilk................. show me anywhere in MY country where we do this.............

Not IRAQ

Human Rights Developments

Defending Human Rights

The Role of the International Community

The Hindu nationalist policies espoused by India's governing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and its affiliate organizations undermined the country's historical commitment to secular democracy. Violence against Christian, Muslim, and Dalit, or "untouchable," populations was one result. Areas of separatist violence such as Kashmir and northeast India were marked by grave human rights abuses on the part of Indian security forces and armed rebel groups. Violence against women continued, from infanticide to dowry-related deaths to attacks on women whose male relatives were sought by the police. A major campaign on Dalit rights gathered strength, but some human rights defenders were targets of a state-sponsored backlash against their activism.

Human Rights Developments

Abuses by all parties to the conflict were a critical factor behind the fighting in Kashmir. Emboldened by the successful hijacking of an Indian Airlines plane in December 1999 that secured the release of three jailed associates, pro-independence guerrillas or "militants" in the region stepped up their attacks on civilians, as well as on camps and barracks of government forces. The Indian army, operating under the Jammu and Kashmir Disturbed Areas Act and the Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Act, continued to conduct cordon-and-search operations in Muslim neighborhoods and villages, detaining young men, assaulting other family members, and summarily executing suspected militants. Many Kashmiri civilians were killed or injured as a result of being caught in a crossfire between soldiers and militants, or in skirmishes and shelling between Indian and Pakistani troops across their countries' common border, known as the Line of Control.

In January, the Indian army, after its own investigation, announced that fifty-six of its personnel in Kashmir would be punished for committing human rights violations. The punishments ranged from discharge to denial of promotion. National and state human rights commissions, however, were barred from investigating army and paramilitary personnel.

On March 20, just before U.S. President Clinton's visit to South Asia, thirty-six Sikh men were shot dead in Chithisinghpora, Anantnag district, by unidentified gunmen reportedly dressed in army uniforms. In the weeks that followed, Sikh residents took to the streets demanding protection, while hundreds of Muslim villagers staged protests against Indian security forces. They alleged that in the aftermath of the Sikh massacre, blamed by the army on militants, many Muslim civilians had been "disappeared" or killed.

In early April, at least seven people were killed when police opened fire on Muslim protestors demanding the exhumation of the bodies of five men killed by members of the Indian army's Special Operations Group in Anantnag district. The protestors claimed that the men hadbeen detained in the aftermath of the Chithisinghpora massacre and killed in a "staged" encounter. On April 6, the charred and disfigured bodies were exhumed. DNA tests were performed to confirm their identities, but as of this writing, the government had not released the results.

On June 26, the Jammu-Kashmir state assembly approved a controversial autonomy plan that was subsequently rejected by the Indian federal cabinet. On July 24, the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen, Kashmir's largest armed guerilla group, declared a unilateral ceasefire and announced its willingness to enter into negotiations with Indian authorities. On July 29, India suspended its offensive against the group, but hopes of a peaceful resolution to the conflict were dashed by a series of massacres on August 1 and 2 that left ninety Hindu pilgrims dead in Pahalgam, in the Kashmir valley. The massacres were believed to have been carried out by militant factions opposed to the ceasefire, but reports suggested that some of the victims were killed by fire from Indian security forces. On August 8, Hizb-ul-Mujahideen called off the ceasefire, citing the Indian government's refusal to include Pakistan in three-way peace talks. Indian Home Minister L.K. Advani on August 22 rejected calls for an immediate judicial inquiry into the Pahalgam massacre.

Militants were believed responsible for several attacks against Hindus, who form a minority in the state. On August 19, a group of men carrying assault rifles entered two houses in the village of Ind, Udhampur district, and opened fire on the occupants, killing four. Two nights earlier, another group of gunmen had raided several Hindu homes in the village of Kot Dara, killing six. Some of those killed in the Kot Dara attack were reported to have been members of the local Village Defense Committee (VDC), established by the state government in the hill districts ostensibly to protect all of the region's inhabitants. The VDCs recruited their members almost exclusively from local Hindu communities, however, and were seen by militants as adjuncts of the Indian security forces.

Caste violence continued to divide the impoverished state of Bihar. There, the Ranvir Sena, a banned private militia of upper-caste landlords that had been operating with impunity since 1994, waged war on various Maoist guerrilla factions, such as the People's War Group (PWG). These guerrilla groups advocated higher wages and more equitable land distribution for lower-caste laborers. The cycle of retaliatory attacks claimed many civilian lives.

On April 25, upper-caste Rajputs shot and killed four Dalits and seriously injured three in Rohtas district, Bihar. Rajputs subsequently burned down the entire Dalit hamlet, leaving all twenty-five families homeless. The attack was reportedly in retaliation for the killing of two Rajputs a few days earlier by members of the outlawed PWG. On June 16, in Miapur village in Bihar's Aurangabad district, the Ranvir Sena slaughtered thirty-four lower-caste men, women, and children. Survivors reported that police left the scene when the attacking mob entered the village. The massacre was reportedly to avenge the killings by Maoist guerrillas of twelve upper-caste Bhumihars the week before, and thirty-four Bhumihars in March 1999. Some Ranvir Sena members were arrested in the weeks that followed, but there was no precedent for successful prosecutions in such cases.

Police blamed the July 13 killings of four upper-caste Hindus in Garwah district on the PWG. On September 13 the Maoist Communist Centre, another armed group, slit nine people's throats in Ranchi district. The victims included Muslims and tribespeople.

Bihar was not the only state affected by caste violence. On March 12, seven members of a Dalit family were burned alive in their homes by an upper-caste mob in Kolar district, Karnataka state. The attack was preceded by the stabbing of an upper-caste man in a nearby village. Although police were aware of escalating tensions in the area, they failed to take preventive action.

Attacks against Christians, which have increased significantly since the BJP came to power in March 1998, continued. By mid-year over thirty-five anti-Christian attacks had been reported throughout the country, with the states of Gujarat and Uttar Pradesh-both BJP-led-particularly hard hit.

Activists belonging to militant Hindu extremist groups such as the Bajrang Dal and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (World Hindu Council, VHP) were often blamed for the violence. Both groups are members of the sangh parivar, an umbrella Hindu organization that boasts the ruling BJP as its political wing. These Hindu groups blamed the violence on popular anger over Christian efforts to convert Hindus. While government officials at the state and central level condemned the attacks, they did little to prosecute those responsible.

On January 31 a year-long manhunt came to an end with the arrest in Orissa of Bajrang Dal activist Dara Singh. Singh was wanted in connection with several murders, including those of Australian missionary Graham Stuart Staines and his two sons in 1999. Christian relief at the arrest was tempered, however, by a state government order, believed to be aimed at limiting the activities of Christian missionaries, requiring a police inquiry before anyone adopted a new faith.

The state governments of Gujarat and Uttar Pradesh lifted a ban against civil servants joining the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (National Volunteer Corps, RSS), a sangh parivar member. In Gujarat, Delhi, and Orissa, district administrations conducted surveys to assess the activities and whereabouts of minority community members and leaders. Meanwhile, the BJP and its allies continued to implement their agenda for the "Hinduization" of education, mandating Hindu prayers in certain state-sponsored schools and revising history books to include what amounted to propaganda against Islamic and Christian communities.

On April 11, three Christian missionary schools were ransacked and six people beaten in related attacks by the Bajrang Dal in Mathura, in BJP-led Uttar Pradesh. The group sought to justify its actions by calling the schools "machines for conversion." On April 21, a group of Christians was attacked near the city of Agra. These attacks followed the beating to death of two tribal Christians in Hazaribagh, and an attack on two nuns and a priest in Mathura.

On June 7, a Catholic priest was battered to death while sleeping outside his school in Uttar Pradesh. Government officials were quick to rule out any religious motive, attributing it to burglary. Within days the sole witness to the attack, Vijay Ekka, died in police custody. Ekka had told parishioners who visited him in detention that he was being tortured by the police and that he feared for his life. Two policemen were arrested and a magisterial probe was ordered after a Christian organization filed a complaint.

In May, the National Commission for Minorities (NCM), a government agency, issued a report stating that attacks against Christians were either accidental or the unrelated actions of petty criminals. Outraged Christian activists said the report showed that the government condoned attacks on Christians. Earlier reports by the NCM, issued before it was overhauled by the central government in January, had recommended prosecutions for such attacks and accused the government of willful neglect at all levels.

In June, a series of blasts damaged Christian churches in Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, and Goa. A month later, crude bombs were set off in two more churches in Karnataka. In August, police charged members of a Muslim sect, allegedly based in Pakistan, with masterminding the attacks. Human rights activists maintained that the arrests were meant to deflect attention from Hindu hardliners' campaign of anti-Christian violence.

On July 14, the Maharashtra state government announced its intention to prosecute Bal Thackeray, leader of the right-wing Hindu organization Shiv Sena, for his role in inciting Bombay's 1992-1993 riots in which over 700 people, the vast majority of them Muslims, were killed. The decision to prosecute came two years after a government-appointed judicial commission had named Thackeray as one of those responsible for the violence. On July 25, amid rioting by Shiv Sena supporters, Thackeray was arrested only to be released a few hours later after a judge ordered the case closed on the grounds that the statute of limitations relating to the incitement charges had expired.

Violence in the northeastern states, particularly Assam, continued throughout the year, claiming many civilian casualties. Members of the United Liberation Front of Assam (ULFA), a militant group seeking Assam's independence from India, repeatedly clashed with the police and with surrendered ULFA members working with the government, known as "SULFA." The Bodo Liberation Tigers (BLT) fighting for a separate homeland for the Bodo tribal people extended their ceasefire by one year beginning September 15.

In April, the Law Commission of India recommended the introduction of the Prevention of Terrorism Bill into parliament. If enacted, the bill would reinstate a modified version of the notorious Terrorist and Disruptive Activities (Prevention) Act (TADA), repealed in 1995. TADA had facilitated tens of thousands of unjustified arrests, torture, and other violations against political opponents, social activists, and human rights defenders. Human rights organizations protested against the bill arguing that, if enacted, it would have similar effects.

In a positive move, the law commission also called for sweeping changes to the country's rape laws following an increase in the incidence of sexual violence. Women's rights activists welcomed this recommendation. Female infanticide persisted as the female to male ratio continued to drop-a reflection of the lower status of women and girls, who were more likely to be deprived of food, education, or health services, or to be seen as an economic liability under the dowry system.

Women whose relatives were sought by the police continued to be detained. In February, in Tamil Nadu, twelve women were illegally detained and tortured and repeatedly sexually assaulted in custody because of their ties to a suspected robber who had himself died in police custody. The National Human Rights Commission, a government-appointed body, also took particular note of alarming numbers of deaths in police custody.

Police brutality against Muslim students of the Jamia Millia Islamia, an institution of higher education in Delhi, made national headlines. On April 9, while searching for two criminal suspects, hundreds of police broke into one of the institution's dormitories and physically assaulted Muslim students, destroyed their property, and vandalized the campus mosque.

Two days earlier, members of the State Reserve Police beat and arrested up to forty-six demonstrators following a protest against the proposed Maroli-Umbergaon Port Project in Gujarat. While all were released on bail within forty-eight hours, six of the protesters were beaten in custody by police. One, Col. (retired) Pratap Save, suffered a brain hemorrhage, went into a coma, and died from his injuries on April 20.

In June, the Indian navy alerted Sri Lankan authorities to the presence of forty-seven Sri Lankan refugees who had become stranded on an island between the two countries while fleeing to India. A Sri Lankan naval vessel then picked them up and took them back to Sri Lanka. In August, Indian authorities in Mizoram state forcibly repatriated over one hundred ethnic minority Chin refugees who had fled from Burma.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:22 am

Suresh Gupta wrote: Dear Koan and Kensloft,

How and why do you say that?

Having compassion and love does not mean accepting and not protesting wrongs being done by some people to the human beings. If innocent human beings are killed in India in a communal clash I feel sad and do all in my power to correct the wrong. Similarly I feel sad when innocent human beings are killed in a war imposed by one country on another. But when the country responsible for so much killing defends itself and practice double standards I protest. And I think it is not only my right but duty also. Doing so does not come in conflict with my compassion and love for human beins.

Koan, my words of compassion and love at the end of the referred mesage are not funny in retrospect of all the earlier messages. Rather ir enforces what I have said earlier. And Kensloft, there are no 180 or 360 degree turnaround. It is a simple belief and practice thereof. Please try to understand what I am trying to convey.
Speaking for myself, I think you chose a poor example for your proof of evil in America. Having the facts about your "hero" revealed did not elicit an appropriate response but a strange form of denial and redirection of the conversation.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:45 am

BTS wrote: and india commits none?????????

right,,,,,,?

You tell me.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:53 am

koan wrote: Speaking for myself, I think you chose a poor example for your proof of evil in America. Having the facts about your "hero" revealed did not elicit an appropriate response but a strange form of denial and redirection of the conversation.

Koan you behave strangely now. You are not the same Koan I used to know when I joined this forum. Did I do something to offend you? If yes then let me know.

Modi is not my hero and Bush is not anti-hero for me. It is the thought process of a country I am talking about. No personalities are involved. It is how I think. I am sorry if it is not as per your standards.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:58 am

people in ALL countries commit human rights violations. no nation is free of them. in one form or another, to one degree or another, they occur, around the world.

innocent people have died in the iraq war. far more innocent people died at the hands of their ruler for the previous thirty years. as unpleasant as it is, sometimes it costs lives to save lives. no, that was not the ostensible reason for the iraq war (although one can make an argument that the belief that there *were* WMD's was impetus for stopping their possible use - to prevent innocent lives from being taken by their use).

while the US has imposed its 'will' upon the iraqi people (that tends to happen during war), we are also clearly committed to letting the iraqi people find their own path - free of a despotic leader, and free as a republic, able to choose its course. it will take time. i believe history will not view the iraqi conflict as harshly as it is view now. when the iraqi people have supressed the terrorists, and peace returns, it will be a real peace, not the faux peace created by saddam's ruthless oppression.

does the bush administration have a double standard? no more so than any previous administration. we have always talked a good game. we fight for rights in some places, not in others. political expediency is a fact of life, in all nations. look at russia's support for the corrupt government in the ukraine. france's arms contracts with iraq (one of the principal reasons they were against the iraq war). japan's horrendous racism against koreans. china's clattering of swords about taiwan. canada's obeisance to the queen (just kidding!).

egggggg i'm rambling.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:01 am

Dear BTS,

Posting such long messages is like shouting. You people will never understand. It is not that you people can not understand. May be because you people don't want to understand. May be you people are afraid that reality may not be as per your liking.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:18 am

No Anastrophe, I don't think you are rambling. You are stating your opinion the way you see things. I also state my opinion the way I see things. I respect other's opinion and expect others to respect my opinion. Unfortunately some get impatient with me. I can only feel sorry for this.

There are many views in your message with which I agree, and there are many issues with which I have a different opinion. I am not trying to paint US as a bad country, and I am also not trying to show my country as one which has not done anything wrong. But one thing I can say that my country has no policy of interfering in other country's internal affairs. My country believes in living peacefully and let others live peacefully. But countries like US are making it a more and more difficult.

I hope that by writing all this I have not offended your feelings.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:22 am

Suresh Gupta wrote: Dear BTS,

Posting such long messages is like shouting. You people will never understand. It is not that you people can not understand. May be because you people don't want to understand. May be you people are afraid that reality may not be as per your liking.
suresh, i'm pretty shocked by this. "you people" is an epithet in this country. it's a watered-down way of saying 'all of you and your ilk' - 'all black people' - 'all white people' - 'all jews', etc.

have you read what BTS posted? attacking the length of the post is not a rational means of arguing your stance. is the substance of the post not worth considering? i'm not asking that you refute it point by point.

will you admit that there are ongoing human rights violations in india? that there are double standards in indian politics?

i'm not attacking you, i am however attacking the validity of your arguments. you've said that because the CM of an indian state has been denied a visa, therefore bush should be denied entry to your country. as a stance - albeit not rational - a better claim would be that, say, the governor of california be denied entry to india. the US has not denied entry of the PM of india. therefore the stance that our president should be denied entry in a 'tit for tat' is simply that - tit for tat, a petty means of stating one's displeasure, but not a rational means of international diplomacy.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:32 am

Suresh Gupta wrote: No Anastrophe, I don't think you are rambling. You are stating your opinion the way you see things. I also state my opinion the way I see things. I respect other's opinion and expect others to respect my opinion. Unfortunately some get impatient with me. I can only feel sorry for this.

There are many views in your message with which I agree, and there are many issues with which I have a different opinion. I am not trying to paint US as a bad country, and I am also not trying to show my country as one which has not done anything wrong. But one thing I can say that my country has no policy of interfering in other country's internal affairs. My country believes in living peacefully and let others live peacefully. But countries like US are making it a more and more difficult.

I hope that by writing all this I have not offended your feelings.
Suresh, you need to be a bit more pragmatic. does not india have nuclear weapons? what are they for? how does this fit in with your country believing in living peacefully and letting others live peacefully?

i'm not talking about the fact that the US has nuclear weapons. we've had them since the 1940's, from a time when the world was a very, VERY different world than today. The US has been reducing its nuclear weapons stockpiles for decades. India has had nuclear weapons only since 1998.

are these weapons for defense? are they not capable of killing millions of *innocent* people if they were used?

these are important questions. india is not perfect. india has its own double standards. we all work to achieve peace in spite of these issues.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:50 am

anastrophe wrote: Suresh, you need to be a bit more pragmatic. does not india have nuclear weapons? what are they for? how does this fit in with your country believing in living peacefully and letting others live peacefully?

i'm not talking about the fact that the US has nuclear weapons. we've had them since the 1940's, from a time when the world was a very, VERY different world than today. The US has been reducing its nuclear weapons stockpiles for decades. India has had nuclear weapons only since 1998.

are these weapons for defense? are they not capable of killing millions of *innocent* people if they were used?

these are important questions. india is not perfect. india has its own double standards. we all work to achieve peace in spite of these issues.

You have raised an interesting point. India does not have any double standard on nuclear weapons. It has gone to acquire nuclear capability and if it says that it is for peaceful purposes it is correct. There may also be other reasons but again these nuclear weapons are the logical result of the situation created by super powers in this region. The stand taken by India is very clear. Let all countries come to same level of nuclear arsenal then we will talk of stopping further proliferation and reduction. What is wrong in this? If US is reducing its nuclear weapons stockpiles then let it do it and when it will reach India's level , India will also join US in reducing its stockpiles.

As far as being perfect is concerned, no country is perfect including India. I have never claimed that India is perfect.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:39 am

:yh_rotfl

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:45 am

Suresh, I am not attacking you. I have not changed. Apparently, neither have you.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:24 am

Suresh Gupta wrote: Dear BTS,

Posting such long messages is like shouting. You people will never understand. It is not that you people can not understand. May be because you people don't want to understand. May be you people are afraid that reality may not be as per your liking.
Ooops sorry....Is this better?......

I wish it were shorter too, but there were just too many abuses to include.

Can I ask..........Are you a ..........No Let me guess.......... You are in the majority. A Hindu?

Right?

Post by **kensloft** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:45 pm

One of my favourite stories is by Baba Ram Das...

There was a man who wanted to become enlightened and he decided that he would follow the ways that were prescribed by those that had attained their peace on this plane.

The man went into the mountains and found himself a cave where he spent years living the peaceful nature. As time went bye he began to amass a following that saw the light in his face and the light in his heart. Finally the man decided to share his light with the world.

After years of striving for his liberation of the soul he decided that he would go into the marketplace to show and share with the world his inner beauty. As he descended from the mountain there grew a following that saw the white light of his grace. The crowd grew and his fame grew and people came to see this Holy Man.

He entered into the marketplace and the market stilled with his presence. He strode down the road and then a peasant, who was busy living his life, accidentally bumped into him. The holy man grew enraged that this person would have the gall to bump into rather than notice the superior entity was walking amongst them.

Needless to say the white light of his grace disappeared and his followers went off in other directions because they realized that he, although he had practiced the right way, didn't overcome the most basic of delusions. He was still too much in love with himself and not humanity.