anastrophe;450947 wrote: emphasis mine. there's a rather fine distinction here. you know. when law and order encompasses breaking limbs, amputating fingers and hands, cutting out tongues, etc, of dissidents and "criminals". not to mention the simpler wholesale disposal by beheading, dropping in vats of acid, and other colorful means of perverting the human form.
i'm sure some number of the apologist crowd will dispute that, certainly. however, i've seen excerpts from the video from abu ghraib that saddam had distributed to serve as ...disincentive...to budding dissidents. the number of atrocities and murders under his rule will likely never be known.
so let's save the rhetoric about 'law and order' for another time, shall we? unless you wish to carry it further and perhaps provide some laudatory commentary on pol pot while we're at it.
We'll discuss "law and order" after you've justified 650,000 dead and quoted the legal basis, within international law, for the invasion.
Not liking the way the incumbent regime goes about its business is not just cause for invasion.
I don't like the way the regime worked any more than you do but neither do I like to see warmongers in action. I make no apology for Sadam, I'm calling Bush & Blair for their crimes.
Whilst we're about it, seeing as you've brought the subject up, what about Pol Pot? Now he really was a homicidal maniac - killed 1/3 of his people in ways unimaginable to Sadam. Why did the US not see fit to take him out? Maybe
there was no profit in it - no oil to grab? If you want to sling mud then be sure where it will stick.
Killers of Iraq
Killers of Iraq
Bez;450966 wrote: Surely the person comitting the violence is repsonsible.
It seems to me through history that the dictator (or bully) has shown that he can keep the various factions of a country together.......how ? by supresssion and violence.
It takes a lot longer and is much harder work to do this peaceably...but it CAN be done.
People have choices...
If you go into an already tense, but peaceful, situation and do a bit of rabble rousing then you are responsible for the deaths in the riot that follows - incitement.
If you go into a tense, but stable, political situation are create a power vacuum then you are responsible got the anarchy and deaths that follow.
I totally agree with you - to have resolved the Iraq situation peacably would have taken longer and been much harder, but it could and should have been worth the extra effort. Not just barge in, all guns blaising, with no plan beyond "kill the bastard".
It seems to me through history that the dictator (or bully) has shown that he can keep the various factions of a country together.......how ? by supresssion and violence.
It takes a lot longer and is much harder work to do this peaceably...but it CAN be done.
People have choices...
If you go into an already tense, but peaceful, situation and do a bit of rabble rousing then you are responsible for the deaths in the riot that follows - incitement.
If you go into a tense, but stable, political situation are create a power vacuum then you are responsible got the anarchy and deaths that follow.
I totally agree with you - to have resolved the Iraq situation peacably would have taken longer and been much harder, but it could and should have been worth the extra effort. Not just barge in, all guns blaising, with no plan beyond "kill the bastard".
Killers of Iraq
Bryn Mawr;450691 wrote: So invading a country and distroying the infrastructure that maintains law and order is in no way responsible for the anarchy that follows?
The deaths to be counted are only those caused by the bullets of the army?
Sorry, please remove your blinkers.
Please remove yours, your argument holds up to a point, but it is the Iraqis who are destroying the infrastucture as fast as it rebuilt...The deaths were there before and now the Iraqis have only themselves to blame..as they settle old scores and engage in criminal thugery..
The deaths to be counted are only those caused by the bullets of the army?
Sorry, please remove your blinkers.
Please remove yours, your argument holds up to a point, but it is the Iraqis who are destroying the infrastucture as fast as it rebuilt...The deaths were there before and now the Iraqis have only themselves to blame..as they settle old scores and engage in criminal thugery..
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
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Bill Sikes
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Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;451184 wrote: Please remove yours, your argument holds up to a point, but it is the Iraqis who are destroying the infrastucture as fast as it rebuilt...
Who is rebuilding the infrastructure? Not criticising at the moment, but perhaps
that has something to do with the problem.
Who is rebuilding the infrastructure? Not criticising at the moment, but perhaps
that has something to do with the problem.
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;451184 wrote: Please remove yours, your argument holds up to a point, but it is the Iraqis who are destroying the infrastucture as fast as it rebuilt...The deaths were there before and now the Iraqis have only themselves to blame..as they settle old scores and engage in criminal thugery..
That's the whole point - the deaths were NOT there before . Not in anything like the numbers now, and they, and the rest of the Arab world, have us to blame (whether we are, in truth, to blame or not, our actions lay us open to being blamed).
The Iraqis are killing each other, taking out the occasional Mosque whilst they're at it. We were the ones that destroyed the bridges, the communications, the power generation / distribution, the police and security services ......
We are trying to impose our systems on them. We are not including them in the rebuilding effort. Why do you imagine that they're not jumping over themselves in an effort to say thank you.
That's the whole point - the deaths were NOT there before . Not in anything like the numbers now, and they, and the rest of the Arab world, have us to blame (whether we are, in truth, to blame or not, our actions lay us open to being blamed).
The Iraqis are killing each other, taking out the occasional Mosque whilst they're at it. We were the ones that destroyed the bridges, the communications, the power generation / distribution, the police and security services ......
We are trying to impose our systems on them. We are not including them in the rebuilding effort. Why do you imagine that they're not jumping over themselves in an effort to say thank you.
Killers of Iraq
Bryn Mawr;451500 wrote: That's the whole point - the deaths were NOT there before . Not in anything like the numbers now, and they, and the rest of the Arab world, have us to blame (whether we are, in truth, to blame or not, our actions lay us open to being blamed).
The Iraqis are killing each other, taking out the occasional Mosque whilst they're at it. We were the ones that destroyed the bridges, the communications, the power generation / distribution, the police and security services ......
We are trying to impose our systems on them. We are not including them in the rebuilding effort. Why do you imagine that they're not jumping over themselves in an effort to say thank you.
What nonsense
By David Streitfeld, Times Staff Writer
November 3, 2006
LA Times
SAN FRANCISCO — Bechtel Corp. helped build the Bay Area subway system, Hoover Dam and a city for 200,000 in the desert of Saudi Arabia. It likes to boast that it can go anywhere, under any conditions, and build anything.
In Iraq, Bechtel met its match.
A firm that prides itself on its safety record saw dozens of its workers killed. And a company that celebrates achievement won't know for a long time, if ever, exactly what it accomplished.
The assignment Bechtel won from the U.S. government in early 2003 was unique: Apply the brick and mortar needed to restart the long-starved and war-damaged Iraqi economy, allowing the country to blossom into a modern and free industrial state. Rarely had a single corporation been given so much power to affect so many so quickly.
More than three years later, Bechtel says its work on Iraq's water and electrical plants, its bridges, schools and port, is done.
The company said this week at its headquarters here that it had completed 97 of 99 projects for a total of $2.3 billion, a sum that included its undisclosed fee. Only two Bechtel employees are left in the country. At its peak, there were 200 people from Bechtel supervising tens of thousands of Iraqis.
If the story for Bechtel is drawing to a close, this isn't anything like the happy ending it once expected.
The company went to Iraq with a good deal of well-earned swagger. Chairman Riley Bechtel told the firm's employees in April 2003 that Bechtel's record was one "that few, if any, companies in the world can match." The tasks it would undertake in Iraq, he added, were "the kind of work we do best."
The company expected Iraq to develop from an aid recipient to a customer. The biggest U.S. engineering firm would help one of the world's most distressed countries into the 21st century.
That hope receded with each suicide bombing.
"We were told it would be a permissive environment. But to the horror of everyone, it never stabilized. It just went down, down, down, and to this day it continues to go down," said Cliff Mumm, who ran Bechtel's Iraq operation. "I'm proud of what we did, but had law and order prevailed, it would be a different situation."
At one Bechtel project, in the southern city of Basra, the company recorded this toll: The site security manager was murdered; the site manager resigned after receiving death threats; a senior engineer resigned after his daughter was kidnapped; 12 employees of the electrical-plumbing subcontractor were assassinated in their offices; and 11 employees of the concrete supplier were murdered.
All told, 52 workers associated with Bechtel projects were killed, most of them Iraqi. Forty-nine others were wounded.
Bechtel says it completed nearly all its assigned projects, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily operating as planned.
"Once projects were complete, the plant operating crews we trained often lacked the leadership, resources or motivation needed to run and maintain their facilities," Mumm said in September testimony to the House committee on government reform.
If Bechtel gives itself high grades under the circumstances, others aren't so generous.
"They thought, 'We're the world's best, and we can go in and make this happen,' " said Rick Barton, a reconstruction specialist at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think tank.
"After all the money that's been invested, the Iraqi people should be able to make it on their own. But we're nowhere near that, let alone creating a shining city on a hill," Barton added.
The looting and vandalism outpaced the rebuilding from the beginning.
In May 2003, the supposed end of open warfare, a survey of Iraq's dilapidated electrical system showed 13 downed transmission towers. Four months later, the total had grown to 623.
"We were trying to hold the infrastructure together and at the same time build a platform to go forward and at the same time cope with a deteriorating security situation," said Mumm, who recently returned to the U.S. "There were a lot of moving parts."
The company's critics give it points for remaining free of corruption, unlike some Iraq contractors. But they say it was too slow in restoring the power grid.
"In the critical years of 2003 and 2004, part of the growing sense in the Iraqi population that Americans were incompetent occupiers rather than effective liberators came because Bechtel hadn't gotten the power grid on in the scorching hot summers," said Charles Tiefer, a professor at the University of Baltimore School of Law and an expert on government contracting. "American corporate reconstruction efforts like Bechtel's failed worse in Iraq than American arms."
The lack of an infrastructure fed the insurgency, which made it its goal to destroy the infrastructure. As time went on, Bechtel spent increasing amounts not on rebuilding but on protecting its workers.
Now that the reconstruction funds are running out, the fate of the Iraq infrastructure, like so much else in the country, is uncertain.
"Bechtel is putting a 'Mission Accomplished' banner over their work in Iraq and then coming home," said Steve Ellis of Taxpayers for Common Sense, a watchdog group. "But the mission has not been accomplished. Iraq still doesn't have enough power, hospitals, clean water."
Most of the bridges and roads and other projects built by Bechtel in the last century are still in use. Mumm hopes that the work the firm did in Iraq will survive.
"All that stuff is there, and available, should the Iraqis find themselves in a stable enough position to use them and take advantage of them," he said. "I believe eventually that will happen."__________________
The Iraqis are killing each other, taking out the occasional Mosque whilst they're at it. We were the ones that destroyed the bridges, the communications, the power generation / distribution, the police and security services ......
We are trying to impose our systems on them. We are not including them in the rebuilding effort. Why do you imagine that they're not jumping over themselves in an effort to say thank you.
What nonsense
By David Streitfeld, Times Staff Writer
November 3, 2006
LA Times
SAN FRANCISCO — Bechtel Corp. helped build the Bay Area subway system, Hoover Dam and a city for 200,000 in the desert of Saudi Arabia. It likes to boast that it can go anywhere, under any conditions, and build anything.
In Iraq, Bechtel met its match.
A firm that prides itself on its safety record saw dozens of its workers killed. And a company that celebrates achievement won't know for a long time, if ever, exactly what it accomplished.
The assignment Bechtel won from the U.S. government in early 2003 was unique: Apply the brick and mortar needed to restart the long-starved and war-damaged Iraqi economy, allowing the country to blossom into a modern and free industrial state. Rarely had a single corporation been given so much power to affect so many so quickly.
More than three years later, Bechtel says its work on Iraq's water and electrical plants, its bridges, schools and port, is done.
The company said this week at its headquarters here that it had completed 97 of 99 projects for a total of $2.3 billion, a sum that included its undisclosed fee. Only two Bechtel employees are left in the country. At its peak, there were 200 people from Bechtel supervising tens of thousands of Iraqis.
If the story for Bechtel is drawing to a close, this isn't anything like the happy ending it once expected.
The company went to Iraq with a good deal of well-earned swagger. Chairman Riley Bechtel told the firm's employees in April 2003 that Bechtel's record was one "that few, if any, companies in the world can match." The tasks it would undertake in Iraq, he added, were "the kind of work we do best."
The company expected Iraq to develop from an aid recipient to a customer. The biggest U.S. engineering firm would help one of the world's most distressed countries into the 21st century.
That hope receded with each suicide bombing.
"We were told it would be a permissive environment. But to the horror of everyone, it never stabilized. It just went down, down, down, and to this day it continues to go down," said Cliff Mumm, who ran Bechtel's Iraq operation. "I'm proud of what we did, but had law and order prevailed, it would be a different situation."
At one Bechtel project, in the southern city of Basra, the company recorded this toll: The site security manager was murdered; the site manager resigned after receiving death threats; a senior engineer resigned after his daughter was kidnapped; 12 employees of the electrical-plumbing subcontractor were assassinated in their offices; and 11 employees of the concrete supplier were murdered.
All told, 52 workers associated with Bechtel projects were killed, most of them Iraqi. Forty-nine others were wounded.
Bechtel says it completed nearly all its assigned projects, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily operating as planned.
"Once projects were complete, the plant operating crews we trained often lacked the leadership, resources or motivation needed to run and maintain their facilities," Mumm said in September testimony to the House committee on government reform.
If Bechtel gives itself high grades under the circumstances, others aren't so generous.
"They thought, 'We're the world's best, and we can go in and make this happen,' " said Rick Barton, a reconstruction specialist at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think tank.
"After all the money that's been invested, the Iraqi people should be able to make it on their own. But we're nowhere near that, let alone creating a shining city on a hill," Barton added.
The looting and vandalism outpaced the rebuilding from the beginning.
In May 2003, the supposed end of open warfare, a survey of Iraq's dilapidated electrical system showed 13 downed transmission towers. Four months later, the total had grown to 623.
"We were trying to hold the infrastructure together and at the same time build a platform to go forward and at the same time cope with a deteriorating security situation," said Mumm, who recently returned to the U.S. "There were a lot of moving parts."
The company's critics give it points for remaining free of corruption, unlike some Iraq contractors. But they say it was too slow in restoring the power grid.
"In the critical years of 2003 and 2004, part of the growing sense in the Iraqi population that Americans were incompetent occupiers rather than effective liberators came because Bechtel hadn't gotten the power grid on in the scorching hot summers," said Charles Tiefer, a professor at the University of Baltimore School of Law and an expert on government contracting. "American corporate reconstruction efforts like Bechtel's failed worse in Iraq than American arms."
The lack of an infrastructure fed the insurgency, which made it its goal to destroy the infrastructure. As time went on, Bechtel spent increasing amounts not on rebuilding but on protecting its workers.
Now that the reconstruction funds are running out, the fate of the Iraq infrastructure, like so much else in the country, is uncertain.
"Bechtel is putting a 'Mission Accomplished' banner over their work in Iraq and then coming home," said Steve Ellis of Taxpayers for Common Sense, a watchdog group. "But the mission has not been accomplished. Iraq still doesn't have enough power, hospitals, clean water."
Most of the bridges and roads and other projects built by Bechtel in the last century are still in use. Mumm hopes that the work the firm did in Iraq will survive.
"All that stuff is there, and available, should the Iraqis find themselves in a stable enough position to use them and take advantage of them," he said. "I believe eventually that will happen."__________________
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;451504 wrote: By David Streitfeld, Times Staff WriterWhat nonsense? That article's a perfectly good demonstration of the point. It shouts "don't ever be so damned stupid again", and with any luck it'll be heard for a long while. The internal affairs of sovereign nations are for the nationals to sort out. Or are you still claiming a Clear and Present Danger to the US homeland posed by pre-liberation Iraq, like your lying gung-ho administration did?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
spot;451527 wrote: What nonsense? That article's a perfectly good demonstration of the point. It shouts "don't ever be so damned stupid again", and with any luck it'll be heard for a long while. The internal affairs of sovereign nations are for the nationals to sort out. Or are you still claiming a Clear and Present Danger to the US homeland posed by pre-liberation Iraq, like your lying gung-ho administration did?
I think you live in a fantasy land Spot. I did not support the invasion of Iraq, but that is not the point being discussed. It does no good to continually go back and say I told you not to invade Iraq, like a five year old. This is what you and the other apologists on this thread constantly do. The country cannot be reconstructed now because the Iraqis will not stop killing each other and the organizations trying to help them. Bryn made the false claim that the Iraqis were not being included in the reconstruction when quite clearly they are.
So what do you propose be done?
I think you live in a fantasy land Spot. I did not support the invasion of Iraq, but that is not the point being discussed. It does no good to continually go back and say I told you not to invade Iraq, like a five year old. This is what you and the other apologists on this thread constantly do. The country cannot be reconstructed now because the Iraqis will not stop killing each other and the organizations trying to help them. Bryn made the false claim that the Iraqis were not being included in the reconstruction when quite clearly they are.
So what do you propose be done?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;451535 wrote: I think you live in a fantasy land Spot. I did not support the invasion of Iraq, but that is not the point being discussed. It does no good to continually go back and say I told you not to invade Iraq, like a five year old. This is what you and the other apologists on this thread constantly do. The country cannot be reconstructed now because the Iraqis will not stop killing each other and the organizations trying to help them. Bryn made the false claim that the Iraqis were not being included in the reconstruction when quite clearly they are.
So what do you propose be done?
Apart from employing grunt, how does paying billions to an American company "include Iraqis in the reconstruction"?
So what do you propose be done?
Apart from employing grunt, how does paying billions to an American company "include Iraqis in the reconstruction"?
Killers of Iraq
Bryn Mawr;451582 wrote: Apart from employing grunt, how does paying billions to an American company "include Iraqis in the reconstruction"?
Did you read the article? I even bold faced the relavent point for you. They employed 200 people who supervised tens of thousands of Iraqis. What do you think those tens of thousands were doing?
Did you read the article? I even bold faced the relavent point for you. They employed 200 people who supervised tens of thousands of Iraqis. What do you think those tens of thousands were doing?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
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Bill Sikes
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- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;451535 wrote: I think you live in a fantasy land Spot. I did not support the invasion of Iraq, but that is not the point being discussed. It does no good to continually go back and say I told you not to invade Iraq, like a five year old. This is what you and the other apologists on this thread constantly do. The country cannot be reconstructed now because the Iraqis will not stop killing each other and the organizations trying to help them. Bryn made the false claim that the Iraqis were not being included in the reconstruction when quite clearly they are.
So what do you propose be done?
What would *you* propose be done? I shall find the answer to this (if any)
extremely fascinating, I'm sure.
So what do you propose be done?
What would *you* propose be done? I shall find the answer to this (if any)
extremely fascinating, I'm sure.
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;451535 wrote: So what do you propose be done?What your troops, and Blair's contribution and the half-dozen remaining Poles have to do, is walk out of Iraq back to their home bases where they can doubtless exercise to their hearts' content. If anyone is so foolish as to invade the US Homeland you can unleash them triumphantly again. As for the somewhat wrecked condition in which you're leaving Iraq (whether you go now or in twenty years it'll still be just as wrecked), chalk it up to experience. If there's any justice in the world, the Iranians will bale the Shias out and the region will settle down to a pious and relatively prosperous future under a Sharia-informed representative democracy. All that the players are waiting for is your departure. Why spin things out?
Oh... and "What do you think those tens of thousands were doing"? Consciously wrecking the reconstruction affort, of course. How many Iraqis would want to see any US plans succeed? One in ten? One in five? Or are you going to pretend it might even be a majority? On the contrary, I'd be surprised if you could muster one in twenty if you held a genuinely secret (ie. old fashioned, traditional, non-electronic and unrigged) ballot among them.
Oh... and "What do you think those tens of thousands were doing"? Consciously wrecking the reconstruction affort, of course. How many Iraqis would want to see any US plans succeed? One in ten? One in five? Or are you going to pretend it might even be a majority? On the contrary, I'd be surprised if you could muster one in twenty if you held a genuinely secret (ie. old fashioned, traditional, non-electronic and unrigged) ballot among them.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
Bill Sikes;451592 wrote: What would *you* propose be done? I shall find the answer to this (if any)
extremely fascinating, I'm sure.
I think it is time to start advocating the partitioning of Iraq into three new states, Sunnis, Shia and Kurd. It is eventually going to happen anyway. Baghdad would alos have to be partitioned. It would be nice if a means could be found to share the oil wealth but I don't see that happening. The world community can help after the partitioning where help is wanted and security can be provided, which probably means Kurdistan and parts of southern Iraq initially. If the parties can agree to have their own states and stability spreads then other areas can be assisted. It would be a start.
extremely fascinating, I'm sure.
I think it is time to start advocating the partitioning of Iraq into three new states, Sunnis, Shia and Kurd. It is eventually going to happen anyway. Baghdad would alos have to be partitioned. It would be nice if a means could be found to share the oil wealth but I don't see that happening. The world community can help after the partitioning where help is wanted and security can be provided, which probably means Kurdistan and parts of southern Iraq initially. If the parties can agree to have their own states and stability spreads then other areas can be assisted. It would be a start.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Killers of Iraq
spot;451603 wrote: What your troops, and Blair's contribution and the half-dozen remaining Poles have to do, is walk out of Iraq back to their home bases where they can doubtless exercise to their hearts' content. If anyone is so foolish as to invade the US Homeland you can unleash them triumphantly again. As for the somewhat wrecked condition in which you're leaving Iraq (whether you go now or in twenty years it'll still be just as wrecked), chalk it up to experience. If there's any justice in the world, the Iranians will bale the Shias out and the region will settle down to a pious and relatively prosperous future under a Sharia-informed representative democracy. All that the players are waiting for is your departure. Why spin things out?
Oh... and "What do you think those tens of thousands were doing"? Consciously wrecking the reconstruction affort, of course. How many Iraqis would want to see any US plans succeed? One in ten? One in five? Or are you going to pretend it might even be a majority? On the contrary, I'd be surprised if you could muster one in twenty if you held a genuinely secret (ie. old fashioned, traditional, non-electronic and unrigged) ballot among them.
Positively useless, I like my plan better...
Oh... and "What do you think those tens of thousands were doing"? Consciously wrecking the reconstruction affort, of course. How many Iraqis would want to see any US plans succeed? One in ten? One in five? Or are you going to pretend it might even be a majority? On the contrary, I'd be surprised if you could muster one in twenty if you held a genuinely secret (ie. old fashioned, traditional, non-electronic and unrigged) ballot among them.
Positively useless, I like my plan better...
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
-
Bill Sikes
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- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;451609 wrote: I think it is time to start advocating the partitioning of Iraq into three new states, Sunnis, Shia and Kurd. It is eventually going to happen anyway. Baghdad would alos have to be partitioned. It would be nice if a means could be found to share the oil wealth but I don't see that happening. The world community can help after the partitioning where help is wanted and security can be provided, which probably means Kurdistan and parts of southern Iraq initially. If the parties can agree to have their own states and stability spreads then other areas can be assisted. It would be a start.
Thanks for the reply. In an ideal world, it might be a great idea - the next thing would be to stop the buggers attacking their neighbours. The lack of potential
for that to happen makes me a bit gloomy, though. Now I've got to get busy for a while.
Thanks for the reply. In an ideal world, it might be a great idea - the next thing would be to stop the buggers attacking their neighbours. The lack of potential
for that to happen makes me a bit gloomy, though. Now I've got to get busy for a while.
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;451586 wrote: Did you read the article? I even bold faced the relavent point for you. They employed 200 people who supervised tens of thousands of Iraqis. What do you think those tens of thousands were doing?
Yes I did - and what do you think I meant about employing grunt?
Yes I did - and what do you think I meant about employing grunt?
Killers of Iraq
Bryn Mawr;451657 wrote: Yes I did - and what do you think I meant about employing grunt?
I'm afraid I have no idea what the term "employing grunt" means.
I'm afraid I have no idea what the term "employing grunt" means.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;451670 wrote: I'm afraid I have no idea what the term "employing grunt" means.
Taking on employees who's sole function is to provide mussle power - no thought, no involvement other than manual labour.
Taking on employees who's sole function is to provide mussle power - no thought, no involvement other than manual labour.
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;451670 wrote: I'm afraid I have no idea what the term "employing grunt" means.It's what comes of ignoring dictionaries, Zinky.
grunt, n.
[2.] [b.] Originally, a junior assistant to a worker on electricity or telephone lines (= GROUND-HOG n. 3); hence, any unskilled or low-ranking assistant; a general dogsbody; (somewhat derog.) a labourer or proletarian, a nobody; spec. in N. Amer. Mil. slang, an infantryman, common soldier. colloq. (orig. and chiefly U.S.).
(Further examples.)
1926 Amer. Speech I. 659/1 He must, in order to become a good lineman, start as a ‘grunt’ (ground man); later he will ‘win his spurs’ (become a pole hiker). Ibid. 659/2 Soon the linemen..order the grunts to slack the rope off so that they can take another hold on the wires.
1929 J. RIORDAN On the Make xiv. 288 As the knight had a squire, so the lineman had his ‘grunt’.
1941 Amer. Speech XVI. 166 Grunt, electrician's helper (Signal Corps). 1942 BERREY & VAN DEN BARK Amer. Thes. Slang §456/4 Common laborer,..grunt, grunter, heister, hefter, a workman who heaves or lifts.
1979 F. POHL Jem xiv. 244 Two of her grunts were holding another while he vomited.
1985 New Yorker 29 Apr. 69/3 They worked for one of the fastest-growing banks in the country,..that had a long-distance sprinter a wizard who had gone from grunt to senior executive vice-president in less than five years.
grunt, n.
[2.] [b.] Originally, a junior assistant to a worker on electricity or telephone lines (= GROUND-HOG n. 3); hence, any unskilled or low-ranking assistant; a general dogsbody; (somewhat derog.) a labourer or proletarian, a nobody; spec. in N. Amer. Mil. slang, an infantryman, common soldier. colloq. (orig. and chiefly U.S.).
(Further examples.)
1926 Amer. Speech I. 659/1 He must, in order to become a good lineman, start as a ‘grunt’ (ground man); later he will ‘win his spurs’ (become a pole hiker). Ibid. 659/2 Soon the linemen..order the grunts to slack the rope off so that they can take another hold on the wires.
1929 J. RIORDAN On the Make xiv. 288 As the knight had a squire, so the lineman had his ‘grunt’.
1941 Amer. Speech XVI. 166 Grunt, electrician's helper (Signal Corps). 1942 BERREY & VAN DEN BARK Amer. Thes. Slang §456/4 Common laborer,..grunt, grunter, heister, hefter, a workman who heaves or lifts.
1979 F. POHL Jem xiv. 244 Two of her grunts were holding another while he vomited.
1985 New Yorker 29 Apr. 69/3 They worked for one of the fastest-growing banks in the country,..that had a long-distance sprinter a wizard who had gone from grunt to senior executive vice-president in less than five years.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
Bryn Mawr;451687 wrote: Taking on employees who's sole function is to provide mussle power - no thought, no involvement other than manual labour.
Oh I see, so you were there and are qualified to make that judgement?
Oh I see, so you were there and are qualified to make that judgement?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Killers of Iraq
spot;451689 wrote: It's what comes of ignoring dictionaries, Zinky.
grunt, n.
[2.] [b.] Originally, a junior assistant to a worker on electricity or telephone lines (= GROUND-HOG n. 3); hence, any unskilled or low-ranking assistant; a general dogsbody; (somewhat derog.) a labourer or proletarian, a nobody; spec. in N. Amer. Mil. slang, an infantryman, common soldier. colloq. (orig. and chiefly U.S.).
(Further examples.)
1926 Amer. Speech I. 659/1 He must, in order to become a good lineman, start as a ‘grunt’ (ground man); later he will ‘win his spurs’ (become a pole hiker). Ibid. 659/2 Soon the linemen..order the grunts to slack the rope off so that they can take another hold on the wires.
1929 J. RIORDAN On the Make xiv. 288 As the knight had a squire, so the lineman had his ‘grunt’.
1941 Amer. Speech XVI. 166 Grunt, electrician's helper (Signal Corps). 1942 BERREY & VAN DEN BARK Amer. Thes. Slang §456/4 Common laborer,..grunt, grunter, heister, hefter, a workman who heaves or lifts.
1979 F. POHL Jem xiv. 244 Two of her grunts were holding another while he vomited.
1985 New Yorker 29 Apr. 69/3 They worked for one of the fastest-growing banks in the country,..that had a long-distance sprinter a wizard who had gone from grunt to senior executive vice-president in less than five years.
Then he should have said employing grunts..
grunt, n.
[2.] [b.] Originally, a junior assistant to a worker on electricity or telephone lines (= GROUND-HOG n. 3); hence, any unskilled or low-ranking assistant; a general dogsbody; (somewhat derog.) a labourer or proletarian, a nobody; spec. in N. Amer. Mil. slang, an infantryman, common soldier. colloq. (orig. and chiefly U.S.).
(Further examples.)
1926 Amer. Speech I. 659/1 He must, in order to become a good lineman, start as a ‘grunt’ (ground man); later he will ‘win his spurs’ (become a pole hiker). Ibid. 659/2 Soon the linemen..order the grunts to slack the rope off so that they can take another hold on the wires.
1929 J. RIORDAN On the Make xiv. 288 As the knight had a squire, so the lineman had his ‘grunt’.
1941 Amer. Speech XVI. 166 Grunt, electrician's helper (Signal Corps). 1942 BERREY & VAN DEN BARK Amer. Thes. Slang §456/4 Common laborer,..grunt, grunter, heister, hefter, a workman who heaves or lifts.
1979 F. POHL Jem xiv. 244 Two of her grunts were holding another while he vomited.
1985 New Yorker 29 Apr. 69/3 They worked for one of the fastest-growing banks in the country,..that had a long-distance sprinter a wizard who had gone from grunt to senior executive vice-president in less than five years.
Then he should have said employing grunts..
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;451704 wrote: Oh I see, so you were there and are qualified to make that judgement?
Just as much as you were!
What is that comment supposed to prove?
Just as much as you were!
What is that comment supposed to prove?
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;451705 wrote: Then he should have said employing grunts..
Sorry for the typo :wah:
Sorry for the typo :wah:
Killers of Iraq
Bryn Mawr;451716 wrote: Just as much as you were!
What is that comment supposed to prove?
That it is just your opinion backed up by nothing else..
What is that comment supposed to prove?
That it is just your opinion backed up by nothing else..
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;451760 wrote: That it is just your opinion backed up by nothing else..Well... one group of opinions makes sense in terms of the news reports, and the other group's optimistically dismissive of the current state of affairs in favour of what might just possibly, with luck and a following wind, grow out of the mess. I think overwhelmingly in tune with current events counts for more than "backed up by nothing".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;451760 wrote: That it is just your opinion backed up by nothing else..
As, equally, are yours. What point are you trying to make?
As, equally, are yours. What point are you trying to make?
-
Bored_Wombat
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:33 am
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;451535 wrote: I think you live in a fantasy land Spot. I did not support the invasion of Iraq, but that is not the point being discussed. It does no good to continually go back and say I told you not to invade Iraq, like a five year old. This is what you and the other apologists on this thread constantly do. The country cannot be reconstructed now because the Iraqis will not stop killing each other and the organizations trying to help them. Bryn made the false claim that the Iraqis were not being included in the reconstruction when quite clearly they are.
So what do you propose be done?
There needs to be much more careful people and culture management in Iraq.
There has been way to much disrespect of the Iraqi people and Iraqi culture by the occupiers. Dogs and alcohol should both not have been allowed into the country in the first place.
Home searchers should have been carried out by troops equipped with slip off boots that should have been left at the door.
Detainees should not have been sexually abused, and Coalition troops that are captured in the performance of crimes, especially if they are in local disguise should be tried by the Iraqis and the Iraqi system.
Widespread and transparent investigations into wrongdoing is essential for the honour of the Iraqi people now. The rapists and abusers must be brought to trial, as well as those who have killed Iraqis without good cause. Although 655 000 dead implies that Justice is beyond reach already. Still it is important to start now, as justice must first be seen to be done. Immunity to prosecution for the troops is a unconscionable devaluing of every Iraqi life.
The restoration of water and sewerage and power should be a higher priority that the maintenance of the oil infrastructure, and control of Iraq's oil assets should be returned to Iraqis as a show of good faith that the invasion was not for economic reasons (Ha!)
Culturally important infrastructure such as mosques should also be a high priority for restoration in a culturally sensitive manner, and every shooting of an innocent at a checkpoint should at least result in a public trial.The kids manning check points should have to pass a basic course in the Arabic language.
Self determination is an issue, but it is only economic prosperity that will stop the attacks now. (except by the long road of Genocide). That means roads, water, sewerage, education, communications, power and aid for setting up industries. Not cheap, but the coalition must bear the responsibility for the damage that they have done.
So what do you propose be done?
There needs to be much more careful people and culture management in Iraq.
There has been way to much disrespect of the Iraqi people and Iraqi culture by the occupiers. Dogs and alcohol should both not have been allowed into the country in the first place.
Home searchers should have been carried out by troops equipped with slip off boots that should have been left at the door.
Detainees should not have been sexually abused, and Coalition troops that are captured in the performance of crimes, especially if they are in local disguise should be tried by the Iraqis and the Iraqi system.
Widespread and transparent investigations into wrongdoing is essential for the honour of the Iraqi people now. The rapists and abusers must be brought to trial, as well as those who have killed Iraqis without good cause. Although 655 000 dead implies that Justice is beyond reach already. Still it is important to start now, as justice must first be seen to be done. Immunity to prosecution for the troops is a unconscionable devaluing of every Iraqi life.
The restoration of water and sewerage and power should be a higher priority that the maintenance of the oil infrastructure, and control of Iraq's oil assets should be returned to Iraqis as a show of good faith that the invasion was not for economic reasons (Ha!)
Culturally important infrastructure such as mosques should also be a high priority for restoration in a culturally sensitive manner, and every shooting of an innocent at a checkpoint should at least result in a public trial.The kids manning check points should have to pass a basic course in the Arabic language.
Self determination is an issue, but it is only economic prosperity that will stop the attacks now. (except by the long road of Genocide). That means roads, water, sewerage, education, communications, power and aid for setting up industries. Not cheap, but the coalition must bear the responsibility for the damage that they have done.
Killers of Iraq
Bored_Wombat;451981 wrote: There needs to be much more careful people and culture management in Iraq.
There has been way to much disrespect of the Iraqi people and Iraqi culture by the occupiers. Dogs and alcohol should both not have been allowed into the country in the first place.
Home searchers should have been carried out by troops equipped with slip off boots that should have been left at the door.
Detainees should not have been sexually abused, and Coalition troops that are captured in the performance of crimes, especially if they are in local disguise should be tried by the Iraqis and the Iraqi system.
Widespread and transparent investigations into wrongdoing is essential for the honour of the Iraqi people now. The rapists and abusers must be brought to trial, as well as those who have killed Iraqis without good cause. Although 655 000 dead implies that Justice is beyond reach already. Still it is important to start now, as justice must first be seen to be done. Immunity to prosecution for the troops is a unconscionable devaluing of every Iraqi life.
The restoration of water and sewerage and power should be a higher priority that the maintenance of the oil infrastructure, and control of Iraq's oil assets should be returned to Iraqis as a show of good faith that the invasion was not for economic reasons (Ha!)
Culturally important infrastructure such as mosques should also be a high priority for restoration in a culturally sensitive manner, and every shooting of an innocent at a checkpoint should at least result in a public trial.The kids manning check points should have to pass a basic course in the Arabic language.
Self determination is an issue, but it is only economic prosperity that will stop the attacks now. (except by the long road of Genocide). That means roads, water, sewerage, education, communications, power and aid for setting up industries. Not cheap, but the coalition must bear the responsibility for the damage that they have done.
You put a lot of responsibilty on the occupiers to fix everything and no responsibility on the Iraqis to do anything at all to improve their situtaion. They could start by stopping the daily slaughter of each other..
There has been way to much disrespect of the Iraqi people and Iraqi culture by the occupiers. Dogs and alcohol should both not have been allowed into the country in the first place.
Home searchers should have been carried out by troops equipped with slip off boots that should have been left at the door.
Detainees should not have been sexually abused, and Coalition troops that are captured in the performance of crimes, especially if they are in local disguise should be tried by the Iraqis and the Iraqi system.
Widespread and transparent investigations into wrongdoing is essential for the honour of the Iraqi people now. The rapists and abusers must be brought to trial, as well as those who have killed Iraqis without good cause. Although 655 000 dead implies that Justice is beyond reach already. Still it is important to start now, as justice must first be seen to be done. Immunity to prosecution for the troops is a unconscionable devaluing of every Iraqi life.
The restoration of water and sewerage and power should be a higher priority that the maintenance of the oil infrastructure, and control of Iraq's oil assets should be returned to Iraqis as a show of good faith that the invasion was not for economic reasons (Ha!)
Culturally important infrastructure such as mosques should also be a high priority for restoration in a culturally sensitive manner, and every shooting of an innocent at a checkpoint should at least result in a public trial.The kids manning check points should have to pass a basic course in the Arabic language.
Self determination is an issue, but it is only economic prosperity that will stop the attacks now. (except by the long road of Genocide). That means roads, water, sewerage, education, communications, power and aid for setting up industries. Not cheap, but the coalition must bear the responsibility for the damage that they have done.
You put a lot of responsibilty on the occupiers to fix everything and no responsibility on the Iraqis to do anything at all to improve their situtaion. They could start by stopping the daily slaughter of each other..
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
-
Bill Sikes
- Posts: 5515
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;452257 wrote: You put a lot of responsibilty on the occupiers to fix everything and no responsibility on the Iraqis to do anything at all to improve their situtaion. They could start by stopping the daily slaughter of each other..
Well, a) the "occupiers" started the hostilities; b) the Iraqi factions seem to
dislike one thing more than their own differences, and that's being invaded,
with all that brings. Perhaps the Iraqis are just trying to get their freedom?
Well, a) the "occupiers" started the hostilities; b) the Iraqi factions seem to
dislike one thing more than their own differences, and that's being invaded,
with all that brings. Perhaps the Iraqis are just trying to get their freedom?
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;452257 wrote: You put a lot of responsibilty on the occupiers to fix everything and no responsibility on the Iraqis to do anything at all to improve their situtaion. They could start by stopping the daily slaughter of each other..Why is it that we condemn collaborationists in a European setting but demand it when it's us doing the occupation? You seem far too partisan, Zinky. Some objective rationale is needed. Occupation forces divide the local population and set the factions against each other - that's been a guiderule for occupiers since for ever, I'd have thought. It's repeatedly offered as the British experience in India, for example. That those who refuse to collaborate during an occupation form the next government once the occupiers leave and their Quisling stooges are removed from office seems to be another lesson from history. Just these bare bones from past experience suggest that Iraq is progressing predictably.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
spot;452293 wrote: Why is it that we condemn collaborationists in a European setting but demand it when it's us doing the occupation? You seem far too partisan, Zinky. Some objective rationale is needed. Occupation forces divide the local population and set the factions against each other - that's been a guiderule for occupiers since for ever, I'd have thought. It's repeatedly offered as the British experience in India, for example. That those who refuse to collaborate during an occupation form the next government once the occupiers leave and their Quisling stooges are removed from office seems to be another lesson from history. Just these bare bones from past experience suggest that Iraq is progressing predictably.
I'm to partisan, why don't you go get your dictionary and look up hyprocite? I'm sure it says "See Spot"
I'm to partisan, why don't you go get your dictionary and look up hyprocite? I'm sure it says "See Spot"
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;452297 wrote: I'm to partisan, why don't you go get your dictionary and look up hyprocite? I'm sure it says "See Spot"You go too far in your incoherence sometimes, zinky. Stand back from the keyboard, take a deep breath and try to type that sentence again. "I'm to partisan as match is to petrol", for example - I can follow that but not what you wrote - while it takes an Olympian disdain toward the language to suggest that I look up hyprocite in a dictionary.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
spot;452314 wrote: You go too far in your incoherence sometimes, zinky. Stand back from the keyboard, take a deep breath and try to type that sentence again. "I'm to partisan as match is to petrol", for example - I can follow that but not what you wrote - while it takes an Olympian disdain toward the language to suggest that I look up hyprocite in a dictionary.
:yh_rotfl
:yh_rotfl
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
-
Bored_Wombat
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:33 am
Killers of Iraq
zinkyusa;452257 wrote: You put a lot of responsibilty on the occupiers to fix everything and no responsibility on the Iraqis to do anything at all to improve their situtaion. They could start by stopping the daily slaughter of each other..
They were already not slaughtering each other before the invasion. This slaughter is attributable to it and their treatment during the occupation.
They were already not slaughtering each other before the invasion. This slaughter is attributable to it and their treatment during the occupation.
-
anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
Killers of Iraq
Bored_Wombat;452321 wrote: They were already not slaughtering each other before the invasion. This slaughter is attributable to it and their treatment during the occupation.
and saddam's slaughter of the kurds? the tens - possibly hundreds - of thousands killed at abu ghraib and elsewhere for speaking out against his repression? forgive and forget, i presume that's the guiding light with those.
and saddam's slaughter of the kurds? the tens - possibly hundreds - of thousands killed at abu ghraib and elsewhere for speaking out against his repression? forgive and forget, i presume that's the guiding light with those.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Killers of Iraq
anastrophe;452370 wrote: and saddam's slaughter of the kurds? then tens - possibly hundreds - of thousands killed at abu ghraib and elsewhere for speaking out against his repression? forgive and forget, i presume that's the guiding light with those.For all its faults - and it had faults - pre-"liberation" Iraq was a viable secular society, pre-sanctions Iraq was even more so. "Liberated" Iraq isn't. For as long as the occupation continues it won't be. Moral comparisons are secondary compared to this total and indefinite shut-down of an entire State. Iraq is this generation's Vietnam, and I don't in the least refer to what's being done to Americans whan I say this. It's an ideological adventure with just as little justification as the Domino Theory had. Go home soon or go home late, this folly is still going to leave an anti-American Iraq in its wake.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
As a follow-up to the success or otherwise of the reconstruction effort, the Washington Post has an interesting article today at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... rrer=email "We accomplished a significant amount of work. But it was just overwhelmed by the overlay of violence," said Clifford G. Mumm, who has spent much of the past three years in Iraq managing projects for Bechtel Corp. "It's hard to be very optimistic."
U.S.-funded projects have long been a target for sabotage. Many of those that were spared remain unused by a population paralyzed by violence.
Yet those inside the reconstruction effort say security concerns were hardly the only problem. Poor planning and coordination by U.S. officials meant that even successful individual projects failed to do the job; for example, health-care centers were built at great cost but had no water and sewer service. Poor work-site management by contractors meant that some projects went awry. And now that the United States is handing over reconstruction efforts to Iraq, many involved with the process worry that the Iraqis don't have the training or the money to keep U.S.-built facilities running.
This was not how the rebuilding of Iraq was supposed to go. In the fall of 2003, six months after the U.S. invasion, President Bush promised Iraq "the greatest financial commitment of its kind since the Marshall Plan." Top administration aides said they considered that plan, which helped rebuild Europe after World War II, to be a model for Iraq. Congress soon passed a spending bill that, while offering less money than the Marshall Plan, was expected to be enough to get Iraq back on its feet.
Riding through the streets of the northern city of Mosul three years later, taxi driver Sattar Khalid Othman has barely noticed.
"What reconstruction?" Othman said in an interview last week. "Today we are drinking untreated water from a plant built decades ago that was never maintained. The electricity only visits us two hours a day. And now we are going backwards. We cook on the firewood we gather from the forests because of the gas shortage."
U.S.-funded projects have long been a target for sabotage. Many of those that were spared remain unused by a population paralyzed by violence.
Yet those inside the reconstruction effort say security concerns were hardly the only problem. Poor planning and coordination by U.S. officials meant that even successful individual projects failed to do the job; for example, health-care centers were built at great cost but had no water and sewer service. Poor work-site management by contractors meant that some projects went awry. And now that the United States is handing over reconstruction efforts to Iraq, many involved with the process worry that the Iraqis don't have the training or the money to keep U.S.-built facilities running.
This was not how the rebuilding of Iraq was supposed to go. In the fall of 2003, six months after the U.S. invasion, President Bush promised Iraq "the greatest financial commitment of its kind since the Marshall Plan." Top administration aides said they considered that plan, which helped rebuild Europe after World War II, to be a model for Iraq. Congress soon passed a spending bill that, while offering less money than the Marshall Plan, was expected to be enough to get Iraq back on its feet.
Riding through the streets of the northern city of Mosul three years later, taxi driver Sattar Khalid Othman has barely noticed.
"What reconstruction?" Othman said in an interview last week. "Today we are drinking untreated water from a plant built decades ago that was never maintained. The electricity only visits us two hours a day. And now we are going backwards. We cook on the firewood we gather from the forests because of the gas shortage."
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
I offer this in regard to civil administration in the Middle East, being abstracted from a Report on the State and Condition of the Districts composing the Koordistan Consulate written in 1871 by the local British Consul to the Foreign Office in London...Practically unacquainted with the people he had to govern, or state of their affairs, and unaware of the impossibility of dealing directly with the perpetuated abuses of years, it was not surprising his exertions to cope at once with and check all were misdirected and abortive.
The universal failure of all his projects has now disinclined him attempting anything more in civil government, he has therefore relegated his civil duties to his Vice-Governor, assisted by the self-interested members composing the local councils, confining himself simply to carrying out the system of fortifications contemplated for the defence of these frontier provinces, which seem destined to absorb all the available provincial revenue for many years to come, notwithstanding his promises for their speedy completion.Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose, as they say. What better description could one look for to show the current position of the "liberation" in Iraq?
The universal failure of all his projects has now disinclined him attempting anything more in civil government, he has therefore relegated his civil duties to his Vice-Governor, assisted by the self-interested members composing the local councils, confining himself simply to carrying out the system of fortifications contemplated for the defence of these frontier provinces, which seem destined to absorb all the available provincial revenue for many years to come, notwithstanding his promises for their speedy completion.Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose, as they say. What better description could one look for to show the current position of the "liberation" in Iraq?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
This has nothing to do with the thread, but comes from the same House of Commons Parliamentary Paper as the previous post. It does indicate the admirably impartial nature of justice in those far-off times, together with the unforced command of English one might expect from a member of the Diplomatic Service.Consul-General Eldridge to Sir H. Elliot.
Beyrout, October 9, 1872.
Sir,
I have the honour to report that on the morning of Sunday, the 6th instant, a disturbance took place in Beyrout, the cause of which appears to have been that some Christian porters, who were engaged to throw the carcass of a dead horse into the sea, threw it over a cliff, under which a Moslem was engaged in washing skins or some similar occupation.
The carcass of the horse appears to have struck him and caused his immediate death, which, on becoming known, excited the passions of the most ignorant classes of the Moslems, who accompanied the corpse through the town crying for vengeance on the Christians who had caused the death of their co-religionist. Several respectable Christians were assaulted and severely ill-used by the unruly mob before the police authorities were able to interfere, but as soon as they had notice of what was going on, they acted with vigour, and, by the afternoon, order was restored, and the ringleaders of the disturbance arrested. They are now undergoing their trial, and will, no doubt, be severely dealt with by the authorities, as his Excellency Kiamil Pasha is not likely to allow a case of this kind to pass with impunity.
In justice, however, it must be admitted that there was a certain want of precaution on the part of the porters in throwing the carcass of a horse over the cliff without first ascertaining whether there was anyone below; and it is not difficult to understand how a population so easily excitable as that of Beyrout should have taken up the matter as they did. Much credit is, therefore, due to the energy displayed by the police authorities, as well as to the respectable Mahometans of the town, who, I am informed, did their best to prevent the disorders from spreading.
I have, &c. (Signed)
Beyrout, October 9, 1872.
Sir,
I have the honour to report that on the morning of Sunday, the 6th instant, a disturbance took place in Beyrout, the cause of which appears to have been that some Christian porters, who were engaged to throw the carcass of a dead horse into the sea, threw it over a cliff, under which a Moslem was engaged in washing skins or some similar occupation.
The carcass of the horse appears to have struck him and caused his immediate death, which, on becoming known, excited the passions of the most ignorant classes of the Moslems, who accompanied the corpse through the town crying for vengeance on the Christians who had caused the death of their co-religionist. Several respectable Christians were assaulted and severely ill-used by the unruly mob before the police authorities were able to interfere, but as soon as they had notice of what was going on, they acted with vigour, and, by the afternoon, order was restored, and the ringleaders of the disturbance arrested. They are now undergoing their trial, and will, no doubt, be severely dealt with by the authorities, as his Excellency Kiamil Pasha is not likely to allow a case of this kind to pass with impunity.
In justice, however, it must be admitted that there was a certain want of precaution on the part of the porters in throwing the carcass of a horse over the cliff without first ascertaining whether there was anyone below; and it is not difficult to understand how a population so easily excitable as that of Beyrout should have taken up the matter as they did. Much credit is, therefore, due to the energy displayed by the police authorities, as well as to the respectable Mahometans of the town, who, I am informed, did their best to prevent the disorders from spreading.
I have, &c. (Signed)
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
Presumably you'll want to know how the story ended? I've only just reached this part.Consul-General Eldridge to Sir H Elliot.
Beyrout, November 12, 1872.
With reference to the despatch which I addressed to your Excellency on the 9th ultimo, reporting a disturbance at Beyrout, I have the honour to inform you that there has since been no recurrence of disorders in the town.
I am informed that fourteen of the ringleaders of the Moslem Mob were sentenced bv the Beyrout Tribunal, presided over by his Excellency Kiamil Pasha, to three years imprisonment, with hard labour, but that these sentences were afterwards revised at Damascus, and that punishment reduced, in some instances to two years, and in others to eighteen months hard labour.
The Christians who were the primary, though innocent cause of the disturbance, have been sentenced to six months' imprisonment without hard labour, for not having exercised due precaution.
I have, &c. (Signed)
Beyrout, November 12, 1872.
With reference to the despatch which I addressed to your Excellency on the 9th ultimo, reporting a disturbance at Beyrout, I have the honour to inform you that there has since been no recurrence of disorders in the town.
I am informed that fourteen of the ringleaders of the Moslem Mob were sentenced bv the Beyrout Tribunal, presided over by his Excellency Kiamil Pasha, to three years imprisonment, with hard labour, but that these sentences were afterwards revised at Damascus, and that punishment reduced, in some instances to two years, and in others to eighteen months hard labour.
The Christians who were the primary, though innocent cause of the disturbance, have been sentenced to six months' imprisonment without hard labour, for not having exercised due precaution.
I have, &c. (Signed)
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
anastrophe;447288 wrote: you're aware that that's been completely debunked, are you not? apparently not.While we're talking about blood-crazed contractors getting their jollies from random murder - the "Killers of Iraq" is getting to be a more and more two-edged thread subject header, it seems - this is from yesterday's New York Times. Different incidents, same problem, no video this time but an ongoing court case (related to loss of earnings though, not mayhem on the streets):New York Times, November 17, 2006
Contractor’s Boss in Iraq Shot at Civilians, Workers’ Suit Says
CAMP FALLUJA, Iraq, Nov. 16 — Two former employees of an American private military contracting firm have claimed in a Virginia court that they saw their supervisor deliberately shoot at Iraqi vehicles and civilians this summer, and that the firm fired them for reporting the incidents.
The allegations, made in a lawsuit filed in Fairfax County Circuit Court, accuse Triple Canopy, one of the largest private military contractors to work with the United States in Iraq, of retaliating against the men for reporting that the supervisor had committed violent felonies, and perhaps murder, on the job.
It also claims that Triple Canopy’s management blacklisted the men in the private military contracting industry, rendering them unemployable in the lucrative trade of providing private security in Iraq.
[...]The lawsuit in Virginia explores the gray areas of accountability and jurisdiction, raising questions of how allegations of misconduct are handled by the firms and the governments and private companies that hire them.
In the suit, the former employees — Shane B. Schmidt, a former Marine Corps sniper, and Charles L. Sheppard, III, a former Army Ranger — claim that on July 8 their shift leader fired deliberately and unnecessarily at Iraqi vehicles and civilians in two incidents while their team was driving in Baghdad.
Their assignment that day, the suit claims, was to pick up an employee of KBR, a subsidiary of Halliburton that is involved in construction projects in Iraq, at the Baghdad airport.
In the lawsuit and in telephone interviews, however, the men say that their shift leader, who was scheduled to leave Iraq the next day, was determined to kill before he left Baghdad. (The shift leader, a former American servicemen from Oklahoma, was not named in the suit.) The first incident occurred at about 2:15 p.m., the lawsuit claims, when their vehicle approached the airport entrance.
Their shift leader, the men claim in the suit, abruptly announced that he was “going to kill someone today, stepped from his vehicle and fired several shots from his M4 assault rifle into the windshield of a stopped white truck.
The men claim that the truck was not an evident threat and that their team was not in danger. They said in the suit the shift leader then returned to his seat in their truck and said, “That didn’t happen, understand.
Later in the day, according to the suit, the shift leader said, “I’ve never shot anyone with my pistol before, and then opened the vehicle door and fired seven or eight shots into the windshield of a taxi.
Neither man, in telephone interviews, said he knew for certain what injuries were suffered by civilians inside the two vehicles shot at by their shift leader; in each case, they said, their own vehicle drove away quickly after the shift leader fired.
But Mr. Schmidt said the taxi was occupied when it was fired upon, and that the driver appeared to have been struck, perhaps by bullets or glass flying from the windshield. Both men also said they heard the next day that a taxi driver had been found dead at the location where their shift leader shot into a taxi.
Mr. Schmidt said he was horrified. “I do not have a problem killing bad guys, that’s what we do, he said. “But murdering innocent civilians? That is wrong, and justice has to be served.
Both men said that the shift leader told them that if they reported the shootings they would be fired, and that they feared that their shift leader, who they regarded as unstable, was dangerous to them.Debunk that, big boy. Or at least be bothered to explain your original "you're aware that that's been completely debunked" comment which has been hanging loose and unexplained for weeks.
Contractor’s Boss in Iraq Shot at Civilians, Workers’ Suit Says
CAMP FALLUJA, Iraq, Nov. 16 — Two former employees of an American private military contracting firm have claimed in a Virginia court that they saw their supervisor deliberately shoot at Iraqi vehicles and civilians this summer, and that the firm fired them for reporting the incidents.
The allegations, made in a lawsuit filed in Fairfax County Circuit Court, accuse Triple Canopy, one of the largest private military contractors to work with the United States in Iraq, of retaliating against the men for reporting that the supervisor had committed violent felonies, and perhaps murder, on the job.
It also claims that Triple Canopy’s management blacklisted the men in the private military contracting industry, rendering them unemployable in the lucrative trade of providing private security in Iraq.
[...]The lawsuit in Virginia explores the gray areas of accountability and jurisdiction, raising questions of how allegations of misconduct are handled by the firms and the governments and private companies that hire them.
In the suit, the former employees — Shane B. Schmidt, a former Marine Corps sniper, and Charles L. Sheppard, III, a former Army Ranger — claim that on July 8 their shift leader fired deliberately and unnecessarily at Iraqi vehicles and civilians in two incidents while their team was driving in Baghdad.
Their assignment that day, the suit claims, was to pick up an employee of KBR, a subsidiary of Halliburton that is involved in construction projects in Iraq, at the Baghdad airport.
In the lawsuit and in telephone interviews, however, the men say that their shift leader, who was scheduled to leave Iraq the next day, was determined to kill before he left Baghdad. (The shift leader, a former American servicemen from Oklahoma, was not named in the suit.) The first incident occurred at about 2:15 p.m., the lawsuit claims, when their vehicle approached the airport entrance.
Their shift leader, the men claim in the suit, abruptly announced that he was “going to kill someone today, stepped from his vehicle and fired several shots from his M4 assault rifle into the windshield of a stopped white truck.
The men claim that the truck was not an evident threat and that their team was not in danger. They said in the suit the shift leader then returned to his seat in their truck and said, “That didn’t happen, understand.
Later in the day, according to the suit, the shift leader said, “I’ve never shot anyone with my pistol before, and then opened the vehicle door and fired seven or eight shots into the windshield of a taxi.
Neither man, in telephone interviews, said he knew for certain what injuries were suffered by civilians inside the two vehicles shot at by their shift leader; in each case, they said, their own vehicle drove away quickly after the shift leader fired.
But Mr. Schmidt said the taxi was occupied when it was fired upon, and that the driver appeared to have been struck, perhaps by bullets or glass flying from the windshield. Both men also said they heard the next day that a taxi driver had been found dead at the location where their shift leader shot into a taxi.
Mr. Schmidt said he was horrified. “I do not have a problem killing bad guys, that’s what we do, he said. “But murdering innocent civilians? That is wrong, and justice has to be served.
Both men said that the shift leader told them that if they reported the shootings they would be fired, and that they feared that their shift leader, who they regarded as unstable, was dangerous to them.Debunk that, big boy. Or at least be bothered to explain your original "you're aware that that's been completely debunked" comment which has been hanging loose and unexplained for weeks.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
spot;451603 wrote: What your troops, and Blair's contribution and the half-dozen remaining Poles have to do, is walk out of Iraq back to their home bases where they can doubtless exercise to their hearts' content. If anyone is so foolish as to invade the US Homeland you can unleash them triumphantly again. As for the somewhat wrecked condition in which you're leaving Iraq (whether you go now or in twenty years it'll still be just as wrecked), chalk it up to experience. If there's any justice in the world, the Iranians will bale the Shias out and the region will settle down to a pious and relatively prosperous future under a Sharia-informed representative democracy. All that the players are waiting for is your departure. Why spin things out?Excuse my quoting myself, I just wanted to put on record today's Guardian article on "the Iranians will bale the Shias out and the region will settle down to a pious and relatively prosperous future under a Sharia-informed representative democracy"...The deal – which involved Syria, Lebanon's Hezbollah and the highest authorities in Shia Islam – positions Maliki as a frontrunner to return as leader despite a seven-month stalemate between Iraq's feuding political blocs. It also positions Iran as a potent buffer to US interests at a time when America is looking to change its relationship with Iraq from military overlords to civilian partners.
Senior officials in Iraq have given the Guardian details of the behind-the-scenes Iranian campaign which began in earnest in early September. At the time the US had only just withdrawn its last dedicated combat units from Iraq but left behind a political vacuum with no government in place after March elections delivered a seemingly irrevocably split parliament.
According to sources the Iranians saw their opportunity. "The Iranians were holding out until then," said a key source about the timing of the Iranian move. "They were not going to give the Americans the satisfaction of leaving on a good note."
Iran brokers behind-the-scenes deal for pro-Tehran government in Iraq | World news | The Guardian
Senior officials in Iraq have given the Guardian details of the behind-the-scenes Iranian campaign which began in earnest in early September. At the time the US had only just withdrawn its last dedicated combat units from Iraq but left behind a political vacuum with no government in place after March elections delivered a seemingly irrevocably split parliament.
According to sources the Iranians saw their opportunity. "The Iranians were holding out until then," said a key source about the timing of the Iranian move. "They were not going to give the Americans the satisfaction of leaving on a good note."
Iran brokers behind-the-scenes deal for pro-Tehran government in Iraq | World news | The Guardian
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
And a little more on the same theme:No wonder an outmaneuvered Washington is now on overdrive warning once again of a "Shi'ite crescent" - that figment of the imagination of those wildly democratic heavens such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Kuwait. As for the Allawi camp, its spin mantra - very popular in US corporate media - is that Iran is taking over Iraq. In a late September interview to German weekly Der Spiegel, Allawi insisted fear prevailed everywhere and war could soon break out all across the Middle East.
Obama may have declared the end of the Iraqi war to all those gullible enough to swallow it - but the fact remains that thousands of US troops will continue to be in Iraq even after the December 2011 withdrawal deadline, which in itself will be fought one Bradley vehicle at a time by the Pentagon. No one will know for quite a while what sort of military agreement will be struck by the - still - US occupiers and a theoretically sovereign Iraqi government. Needless to say that the Pentagon - religiously following the "full-spectrum dominance" doctrine - will pull out all stops to keep at least a handful of military bases inside Iraq.
Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs
Obama may have declared the end of the Iraqi war to all those gullible enough to swallow it - but the fact remains that thousands of US troops will continue to be in Iraq even after the December 2011 withdrawal deadline, which in itself will be fought one Bradley vehicle at a time by the Pentagon. No one will know for quite a while what sort of military agreement will be struck by the - still - US occupiers and a theoretically sovereign Iraqi government. Needless to say that the Pentagon - religiously following the "full-spectrum dominance" doctrine - will pull out all stops to keep at least a handful of military bases inside Iraq.
Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
Shall we pick up the end of this shoddy "liberation" that's been running now for something like eight years?
Defense.gov News Article: Obama: U.S., Iraq Forge New Relationship
Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki, to remind people, is Iran's mouthpiece in Iraq. He's the one who said go home and stay home to the Pentagon a few months ago, by refusing local jurisdictional immunity to US troops in Iraq beyond the end of the year unless they had diplomatic cover.
“Just as Iraq has pledged not to interfere in other nations, other nations must not interfere in Iraq,” Obama said. “Iraq’s sovereignty must be respected.” - why did nobody point that out to George Bush and his PNAC team of White House advisors.
“Anyone who observes the nature of the relationship between the two countries will say that the relationship will not end with the departure of the last American soldier,” Maliki said through a translator. You'll notice the lack of enthusiasm in his tone.
“In the coming days, the last American soldiers will cross the border out of Iraq, with honor and with their heads held high.” - that was Obama, as you might expect. No, Mr President. No honor, no more than remained after Vietnam. Just a stack of corpses on the side of the offense team and maybe forty times that number of Iraqis who needn't have died had the Bush Administration not taken its disastrous route to attempted regional dominance. Does anyone in the US seriously expect a grateful Iraq? Is anyone there so witless?
Defense.gov News Article: Obama: U.S., Iraq Forge New Relationship
Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki, to remind people, is Iran's mouthpiece in Iraq. He's the one who said go home and stay home to the Pentagon a few months ago, by refusing local jurisdictional immunity to US troops in Iraq beyond the end of the year unless they had diplomatic cover.
“Just as Iraq has pledged not to interfere in other nations, other nations must not interfere in Iraq,” Obama said. “Iraq’s sovereignty must be respected.” - why did nobody point that out to George Bush and his PNAC team of White House advisors.
“Anyone who observes the nature of the relationship between the two countries will say that the relationship will not end with the departure of the last American soldier,” Maliki said through a translator. You'll notice the lack of enthusiasm in his tone.
“In the coming days, the last American soldiers will cross the border out of Iraq, with honor and with their heads held high.” - that was Obama, as you might expect. No, Mr President. No honor, no more than remained after Vietnam. Just a stack of corpses on the side of the offense team and maybe forty times that number of Iraqis who needn't have died had the Bush Administration not taken its disastrous route to attempted regional dominance. Does anyone in the US seriously expect a grateful Iraq? Is anyone there so witless?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
And, while I'm at it, what twerp decided to leave 15,000 troops permanently in Baghdad as hostages to future crises round those parts, and tried to make them palatable by calling them "Embassy Protection"? Whose gullible electorate is paying for their upkeep? They must be packed into that Green Zone like sardines waiting for the tin opener.
At least it will stop the Internet's bonehead fraternity calling for Baghdad to be nuked next time there's a cold wind, not with 15,000 guarantors of good US behaviour staked out at Ground Zero.
At least it will stop the Internet's bonehead fraternity calling for Baghdad to be nuked next time there's a cold wind, not with 15,000 guarantors of good US behaviour staked out at Ground Zero.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
It's almost as if America has built itself a little town there and has populated it in order to begin the long term process of Americanizing the country through eventual breeding, I mean procreating with the locals. Sounds conspiratorial, but at this point I'd not put it past America to try it.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Killers of Iraq
I'd say it's more likely the average deployment won't involve so much as a trip to the bazaar for a souvenir. I doubt whether anyone in uniform will get out of the Green Zone holding a rifle unless they're on bodyguard duty. I doubt whether the marines in Beirut went shopping, though I bet the Lebanese were more welcoming of US troops than the average citizen of Baghdad will be once they get their country back.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Killers of Iraq
That was pretty much the attitude of the Japanese following WWII, wasn't it.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple