Sorry everyone I did not read the thread lower down that not only addresses this subject but explains the up to date situation.
I put this in anew thread because my question is regarding the legal position rather than Terry Schiaco's chance of recovery.
The legal position in the USA is as follows I believe (and there is every possibilty I have it wrong)
1) It is the spouse that makes the decision
2) 6 Courts and 19 judges have upheld that decision
3) Congress should not be intefering with a citizens decision
It is the same here in the UK, in that it is the spouse who makes the decision, a third party (family) cannot become involved legally.
Is congress going to intefere when the next case comes along. George W is going to be kept fairly busy in signing individual bills to save everyone in this condition. Who is going to make the decisions now that the spouse has been taken out of the mix?
IMO the bill will be ruled unconstitutional and the federal judge will not touch the ruling.
I would have to add that I don't think that it would be and issue here because TS is showing some responses and as I understand it in the UK the patient would have to be completely immobile and on a ventilator for a pull the plug scenario.
Congress Schiavo
Congress Schiavo
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
Congress Schiavo
Bothwell wrote: Sorry everyone I did not read the thread lower down that not only addresses this subject but explains the up to date situation.
I put this in anew thread because my question is regarding the legal position rather than Terry Schiaco's chance of recovery.
The legal position in the USA is as follows I believe (and there is every possibilty I have it wrong)
1) It is the spouse that makes the decision
2) 6 Courts and 19 judges have upheld that decision
3) Congress should not be intefering with a citizens decision
It is the same here in the UK, in that it is the spouse who makes the decision, a third party (family) cannot become involved legally.
Is congress going to intefere when the next case comes along. George W is going to be kept fairly busy in signing individual bills to save everyone in this condition. Who is going to make the decisions now that the spouse has been taken out of the mix?
IMO the bill will be ruled unconstitutional and the federal judge will not touch the ruling.
I would have to add that I don't think that it would be and issue here because TS is showing some responses and as I understand it in the UK the patient would have to be completely immobile and on a ventilator for a pull the plug scenario.
I believe the reason her husband has had to go to court, is because he might be acting against doctors advice. Brain death is EXACTLY that. She obviously isnt. So the doctors must do what they can to make her comfortable. She wouldnt live long in this current state anyway, but I agree with your conclusions. What her husband is fighting to do is in essence legally kill her.
I put this in anew thread because my question is regarding the legal position rather than Terry Schiaco's chance of recovery.
The legal position in the USA is as follows I believe (and there is every possibilty I have it wrong)
1) It is the spouse that makes the decision
2) 6 Courts and 19 judges have upheld that decision
3) Congress should not be intefering with a citizens decision
It is the same here in the UK, in that it is the spouse who makes the decision, a third party (family) cannot become involved legally.
Is congress going to intefere when the next case comes along. George W is going to be kept fairly busy in signing individual bills to save everyone in this condition. Who is going to make the decisions now that the spouse has been taken out of the mix?
IMO the bill will be ruled unconstitutional and the federal judge will not touch the ruling.
I would have to add that I don't think that it would be and issue here because TS is showing some responses and as I understand it in the UK the patient would have to be completely immobile and on a ventilator for a pull the plug scenario.
I believe the reason her husband has had to go to court, is because he might be acting against doctors advice. Brain death is EXACTLY that. She obviously isnt. So the doctors must do what they can to make her comfortable. She wouldnt live long in this current state anyway, but I agree with your conclusions. What her husband is fighting to do is in essence legally kill her.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Congress Schiavo
Not sure my conclusion is that her husband is trying to kill her. My point is about why is congress and the president intefering in this one case.
I repeat are congress and the president going to intervene personally in all of these cases.
There are rules, those rules state that unless there some sort of foul play (Proven) then it is the spouse who makes the decision, I presume the position has been reached on medical advice, so now it is his decision alone, that I think is the law.
Whether I agree or not is a different matter but it is the law.
there is also a weird symmetry here, Bush as Governor of texas must have signed plenty of death warrants now he is an avowed right to life advocate in the Schiavo case.
I am a great admirer of the USA constitution and one of it's founding tenets as I understand it is that the government cannot start poking it's nose in the busines of individuals as long as they are operating inside the law, as is the case here.
I repeat are congress and the president going to intervene personally in all of these cases.
There are rules, those rules state that unless there some sort of foul play (Proven) then it is the spouse who makes the decision, I presume the position has been reached on medical advice, so now it is his decision alone, that I think is the law.
Whether I agree or not is a different matter but it is the law.
there is also a weird symmetry here, Bush as Governor of texas must have signed plenty of death warrants now he is an avowed right to life advocate in the Schiavo case.
I am a great admirer of the USA constitution and one of it's founding tenets as I understand it is that the government cannot start poking it's nose in the busines of individuals as long as they are operating inside the law, as is the case here.
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
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greydeadhead
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Congress Schiavo
But she is brain dead. Her EEG is not showing any activity. All reponses she has shown to outside stimuli are motor responses .. automatic like you blinking when your eye is dry.. or squinting at bright sunlight. Comparing this to a death penalty case islike comparing apples and oranges. The long drawn out appeals process is to ensure that an innocent person is not being put do death for a crime they didn't commit. This woman is dead. Her brain is not functioning. There is no chance of rehabilitation. More than one medical opinion supports this statment. To accuse her husband of attemptting to legally murder her is ludicrious. What is a shame is the selfishness being shown by the parents and groups supported by Randall Terry..(now there is a wonderful person) in keeping her alive in a vegetative state. Her body is breaking down. She cannot eat or drink. She can't chew or swallow. She is basically be force fed to be kept alive. Muscles are atrophing.. despite physical therapy..
Now.. King Georgie and the Conservative right have decided that they should play god. Puleeeezzzeeeeee.. don't we have enuff other problems to deal with.. Iraq, Afganistan, gas prices, etc etc etc... shouldn't we be dealing with those instead of a single case.. but no......
okkay.. rant over..
Now.. King Georgie and the Conservative right have decided that they should play god. Puleeeezzzeeeeee.. don't we have enuff other problems to deal with.. Iraq, Afganistan, gas prices, etc etc etc... shouldn't we be dealing with those instead of a single case.. but no......
okkay.. rant over..
Feed your spirit by living near it -- Magic Hat Brewery bottle cap
Congress Schiavo
Next of kin is usually the spouse. But in certain cases, medical power of attorney has been granted to others. I dont believe the federal government should have gotten involved. I believe you're right, when you say the Supreme Court will rule this latest bit unconstitutional.
There are always loop holes in all legislation, that some clever lawyer will find.
Depending on the kind of legislation the president signed, and how it is worded, will determine what the next step is.
There are always loop holes in all legislation, that some clever lawyer will find.
Depending on the kind of legislation the president signed, and how it is worded, will determine what the next step is.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Congress Schiavo
greydeadhead wrote: But she is brain dead. Her EEG is not showing any activity. All reponses she has shown to outside stimuli are motor responses .. automatic like you blinking when your eye is dry.. or squinting at bright sunlight. Comparing this to a death penalty case islike comparing apples and oranges. The long drawn out appeals process is to ensure that an innocent person is not being put do death for a crime they didn't commit. This woman is dead. Her brain is not functioning. There is no chance of rehabilitation. More than one medical opinion supports this statment. To accuse her husband of attemptting to legally murder her is ludicrious. What is a shame is the selfishness being shown by the parents and groups supported by Randall Terry..(now there is a wonderful person) in keeping her alive in a vegetative state. Her body is breaking down. She cannot eat or drink. She can't chew or swallow. She is basically be force fed to be kept alive. Muscles are atrophing.. despite physical therapy..
Now.. King Georgie and the Conservative right have decided that they should play god. Puleeeezzzeeeeee.. don't we have enuff other problems to deal with.. Iraq, Afganistan, gas prices, etc etc etc... shouldn't we be dealing with those instead of a single case.. but no......
okkay.. rant over..
It's not that easy. And no she isnt brain dead. And what else would you call starving her to death? It would be easier to put a pillow over her face!
Now.. King Georgie and the Conservative right have decided that they should play god. Puleeeezzzeeeeee.. don't we have enuff other problems to deal with.. Iraq, Afganistan, gas prices, etc etc etc... shouldn't we be dealing with those instead of a single case.. but no......
okkay.. rant over..
It's not that easy. And no she isnt brain dead. And what else would you call starving her to death? It would be easier to put a pillow over her face!
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
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persephone
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Congress Schiavo
Why do you say she isn't, I've since read loads of stories and they all indicate that medical investigations say she is brain dead?
Just wondering where you get she isn't from.
Just wondering where you get she isn't from.
Bad Girls have very high standards, but they love you even if you sometimes fall short.
Congress Schiavo
letha wrote: Why do you say she isn't, I've since read loads of stories and they all indicate that medical investigations say she is brain dead?
Just wondering where you get she isn't from.
I've taken care of alot of people, that are in her kind of condition or similar. The one case of true brain death, I had the unfortunate privledge of caring for, was a twin, who had drowned, resucitated etc. Absolutely NO RESPONSE at all, not even blinking stimulation, which is usually the last to go. He was on a vent for the rest of his little life, of course. But you could just tell, that this child was dead!
This woman, while she may have lost most of her brain activity, she still has motor responses! Where would you say those come from?
Just wondering where you get she isn't from.
I've taken care of alot of people, that are in her kind of condition or similar. The one case of true brain death, I had the unfortunate privledge of caring for, was a twin, who had drowned, resucitated etc. Absolutely NO RESPONSE at all, not even blinking stimulation, which is usually the last to go. He was on a vent for the rest of his little life, of course. But you could just tell, that this child was dead!
This woman, while she may have lost most of her brain activity, she still has motor responses! Where would you say those come from?
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
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persephone
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Congress Schiavo
I posted the answer to that in the other thread, it's American not English.
A review of the medical information concerning PVS was published in 1994 by the Multi-Society Task Force on PVS (MSTF).[8] They estimated that 10,000 to 25,000 adults and 4,000 to 10,000 children live in PVS in the United States.[9] PVS can be caused by acute brain injury (e.g. car accidents or lack of oxygen from a heart attack or near-drowning), chronic degenerative disease (e.g. Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease), or developmental malformations (e.g. anencephaly).[10] The injury or disease often results in profound damage to, if not complete death of, the cerebral cortex--that region of the brain believed by many to be responsible for all higher, cognitive functioning.[11]
According to the MSTF, patients in PVS show no evidence of awareness or thinking, and do not communicate.[12] None of their actions appear purposeful, learned or voluntary. However, the brain stem often functions normally in PVS, allowing a much greater range of activities than seen in related syndromes. Most patients in PVS continue to breathe on their own, circulate blood normally, have periods of waking and sleeping, may move their limbs, smile, shed tears and respond to external stimuli. Some may grunt, groan or scream.
A review of the medical information concerning PVS was published in 1994 by the Multi-Society Task Force on PVS (MSTF).[8] They estimated that 10,000 to 25,000 adults and 4,000 to 10,000 children live in PVS in the United States.[9] PVS can be caused by acute brain injury (e.g. car accidents or lack of oxygen from a heart attack or near-drowning), chronic degenerative disease (e.g. Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease), or developmental malformations (e.g. anencephaly).[10] The injury or disease often results in profound damage to, if not complete death of, the cerebral cortex--that region of the brain believed by many to be responsible for all higher, cognitive functioning.[11]
According to the MSTF, patients in PVS show no evidence of awareness or thinking, and do not communicate.[12] None of their actions appear purposeful, learned or voluntary. However, the brain stem often functions normally in PVS, allowing a much greater range of activities than seen in related syndromes. Most patients in PVS continue to breathe on their own, circulate blood normally, have periods of waking and sleeping, may move their limbs, smile, shed tears and respond to external stimuli. Some may grunt, groan or scream.
Bad Girls have very high standards, but they love you even if you sometimes fall short.
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persephone
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Congress Schiavo
English documentation (only a report though) talk of Brain Stem death, but this case isn't in England.
This is the time you really end up wishing that we had universally agreed ideas in medicine
Okay, just twigged onto a difference, I think, the American definition is talking about persistent vegetative state not Brain Stem Death which, is what aeveryone is thinking they mean when they say she is Brain Dead. Thing is there is only the brain stem activity that is different.
Seems we all do agree on PVS, that is what they are saying Terri is in, and both countries define PVS in the same way.
Defining pvs
The persistent vegetative state (pvs) presents particular medical, ethical and legal dilemmas because of the extreme nature of the condition, the difficulties associated with diagnosing it accurately and the risks of premature diagnosis. It results from severe damage to the cerebral cortex, resulting in irreparable destruction of tissue in the thinking, feeling part of the brain. Patients appear awake but show no psychologically meaningful responses to stimuli. It is widely accepted that pvs patients are unconscious and incapable of suffering mental distress or physical pain although many reflex responses remain. Research studies have shown that the level of metabolic functioning of the cerebral cortex of pvs patients is the level associated with deep surgical anaesthesia.
British Medical Association
This is the time you really end up wishing that we had universally agreed ideas in medicine
Okay, just twigged onto a difference, I think, the American definition is talking about persistent vegetative state not Brain Stem Death which, is what aeveryone is thinking they mean when they say she is Brain Dead. Thing is there is only the brain stem activity that is different.
Seems we all do agree on PVS, that is what they are saying Terri is in, and both countries define PVS in the same way.
Defining pvs
The persistent vegetative state (pvs) presents particular medical, ethical and legal dilemmas because of the extreme nature of the condition, the difficulties associated with diagnosing it accurately and the risks of premature diagnosis. It results from severe damage to the cerebral cortex, resulting in irreparable destruction of tissue in the thinking, feeling part of the brain. Patients appear awake but show no psychologically meaningful responses to stimuli. It is widely accepted that pvs patients are unconscious and incapable of suffering mental distress or physical pain although many reflex responses remain. Research studies have shown that the level of metabolic functioning of the cerebral cortex of pvs patients is the level associated with deep surgical anaesthesia.
British Medical Association
Bad Girls have very high standards, but they love you even if you sometimes fall short.
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greydeadhead
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Congress Schiavo
Raven.. I didn't say this was easy. What I am saying is that there is no way that this woman will ever lead a normal life again. Motor responses are involuntary.. she has no control over them. Her brain is not controlling them. If you stick her with a pin, her brain is not going to tell her that it is painful and she is supposed to say ouch.. or even react. What I find disgusting and selfish are the continued efforts by outside parties and the parents to keep her body alive.. how do they know she is not in pain now.. or looking at them and pleading to be let go. They don't.. and it is selfish and hypocritical of them to keep her in a vegative state from which she has no chance of recovery. I worked in a nursing home and saw some of these patients. It was one of the most heart wrenching events I have ever witnessed when the relatives decided it was time.. they had and still have my deepest sympathies.. so please.. don't think I am trying to break this down into a simple problem.
Feed your spirit by living near it -- Magic Hat Brewery bottle cap
Congress Schiavo
greydeadhead wrote: Raven.. I didn't say this was easy. What I am saying is that there is no way that this woman will ever lead a normal life again. Motor responses are involuntary.. she has no control over them. Her brain is not controlling them. If you stick her with a pin, her brain is not going to tell her that it is painful and she is supposed to say ouch.. or even react. What I find disgusting and selfish are the continued efforts by outside parties and the parents to keep her body alive.. how do they know she is not in pain now.. or looking at them and pleading to be let go. They don't.. and it is selfish and hypocritical of them to keep her in a vegative state from which she has no chance of recovery. I worked in a nursing home and saw some of these patients. It was one of the most heart wrenching events I have ever witnessed when the relatives decided it was time.. they had and still have my deepest sympathies.. so please.. don't think I am trying to break this down into a simple problem.
It is at that. And I commend you for being able to work at a nursing home. The fact that she is in a chronic vegetative state isnt the problem. It's the fact that they have to starve her to death to get her to die. THATS the problem! I totally understand where you're coming from! It's a tragedy. What I would like to know is, what happened to cause such a young woman to have a heart attack in the first place? But as none of us are privy to her medical records, and never will be, we'll never know what truly happened to her. Or for that matter, what the doctors really think about it! I just hope her passing is quick and painless now. Since the decision has been reached to not resume her feeding, the docs will most likely sedate her to death. Since it is documented medical fact that starvation is very painful, the morphine will flow like niagra!
It is at that. And I commend you for being able to work at a nursing home. The fact that she is in a chronic vegetative state isnt the problem. It's the fact that they have to starve her to death to get her to die. THATS the problem! I totally understand where you're coming from! It's a tragedy. What I would like to know is, what happened to cause such a young woman to have a heart attack in the first place? But as none of us are privy to her medical records, and never will be, we'll never know what truly happened to her. Or for that matter, what the doctors really think about it! I just hope her passing is quick and painless now. Since the decision has been reached to not resume her feeding, the docs will most likely sedate her to death. Since it is documented medical fact that starvation is very painful, the morphine will flow like niagra!
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
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greydeadhead
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Congress Schiavo
Cases like this are one of the reasons that I don't work there anymore. The toll on my soul was too much. I couldn't watch this and feel like I had done everything possible.. nuff said there..
anyway.. I do agree. What we really need is a right to die law.. that allows people to die with dignity. That might be difficult in this case but in the instance of a living will or specific documentation by the patient, they should be allowed to die with dignity and grace.. not as part of a circus show like this.. and if the morphine helps her to cross over to a better life.. then so be it..
anyway.. I do agree. What we really need is a right to die law.. that allows people to die with dignity. That might be difficult in this case but in the instance of a living will or specific documentation by the patient, they should be allowed to die with dignity and grace.. not as part of a circus show like this.. and if the morphine helps her to cross over to a better life.. then so be it..
Feed your spirit by living near it -- Magic Hat Brewery bottle cap
Congress Schiavo
I HAVE BEEN HIJACKED
I deliberately avoided the is she dead/alive issue.
I wanted to know what you all thought about the LEGAL aspects of this case, forget the woman's name it could be anyone.
I deliberately avoided the is she dead/alive issue.
I wanted to know what you all thought about the LEGAL aspects of this case, forget the woman's name it could be anyone.
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
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greydeadhead
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Congress Schiavo
Sorry Bothwell..we did get off on a tangent there.. okay.. the legal aspects. Well not being a lawyer I would have to saythat her husband would be her legal guardian in this case. And the courts appear to agree with that assessment. So he would be the one to make any decisions concerning her medical care, to remove or keep the feeding tube. I think that someone anwsered this better in the other thread.. I will have to look. I do know that a living will or other documentation would have been extremely important in this case. I have a living will and a document that gives my gf full control should something like this happen to me. No chance of me endiing up in this pitiful state..
Feed your spirit by living near it -- Magic Hat Brewery bottle cap
Congress Schiavo
Bothwell wrote: I HAVE BEEN HIJACKED
I deliberately avoided the is she dead/alive issue.
I wanted to know what you all thought about the LEGAL aspects of this case, forget the woman's name it could be anyone.
So sorry Bothwell!
Okay lets break it down. Smothering her with a pillow wil get you a hefty prison term. Look at Jack Kevorkian. (Dr. Death) A michigan pathologist who set up assisted suicide.
All the medical people who sent 'suffering 'folks to the great by and by out of mercy, all got hefty prison terms.
But this Jack Ass goes to court, to be able to get the laws blessing by starving his wife to death.
Parents fight back by going to a higher court.
We do NOT have right to die laws in america, as of yet. What we DO have are natural death acts.
Why has noone asked the question, if this woman WAS TOTALLY BRAIN DEAD, why did this guy have to go to court????? In the case of total brain death, doctors ALREADY have the ability to pronounce death. Killing someone is ILLEGAL. No matter the intentions! With the exception of abortion by choice, which is another issue.
I deliberately avoided the is she dead/alive issue.
I wanted to know what you all thought about the LEGAL aspects of this case, forget the woman's name it could be anyone.
So sorry Bothwell!
Okay lets break it down. Smothering her with a pillow wil get you a hefty prison term. Look at Jack Kevorkian. (Dr. Death) A michigan pathologist who set up assisted suicide.
All the medical people who sent 'suffering 'folks to the great by and by out of mercy, all got hefty prison terms.
But this Jack Ass goes to court, to be able to get the laws blessing by starving his wife to death.
Parents fight back by going to a higher court.
We do NOT have right to die laws in america, as of yet. What we DO have are natural death acts.
Why has noone asked the question, if this woman WAS TOTALLY BRAIN DEAD, why did this guy have to go to court????? In the case of total brain death, doctors ALREADY have the ability to pronounce death. Killing someone is ILLEGAL. No matter the intentions! With the exception of abortion by choice, which is another issue.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Congress Schiavo
Scrat wrote: Raven. You sidestepped Lethas good old sleuthing like a cat in rush hour traffic.
Good job Letha.
Anyone want to see these politicians stupidity in this? I don't know what Bushie thinks he's doing or the repugnican priesthood but do a Google search of........
Texas Futile Care Law.
It may be a red herring tossed out be the leftie extremists, I haven't looked into it yet.
I havent side stepped anything! You want the same information on brain death as I have? Go to grays anatomy. And go to work in the medical field. I'm a registered respiratory therapist. Have been for the last 16 years. I've turned the vent off of more brain dead people than you know. I dont need to sleuth. I already KNOW! But try explaining that to people like you?
Good job Letha.
Anyone want to see these politicians stupidity in this? I don't know what Bushie thinks he's doing or the repugnican priesthood but do a Google search of........
Texas Futile Care Law.
It may be a red herring tossed out be the leftie extremists, I haven't looked into it yet.
I havent side stepped anything! You want the same information on brain death as I have? Go to grays anatomy. And go to work in the medical field. I'm a registered respiratory therapist. Have been for the last 16 years. I've turned the vent off of more brain dead people than you know. I dont need to sleuth. I already KNOW! But try explaining that to people like you?
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Congress Schiavo
Texas Futile Care Law. ...
How freaking awful! Now another reason why I refuse to venture into Texas.
How freaking awful! Now another reason why I refuse to venture into Texas.
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greydeadhead
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Congress Schiavo
Raven..
I agree with you 100%. Your obvious compassion and value for life shows thru in your posts. I am not disagreeing with you.. but the groups and the parents. The reason that he sued to have the feeding tube removed is because the parents sued to have his guardianship removed in 1993. Five doctors have examined Terry.. 2 selected by Michael.. 2 by the parents.. and one court appointed.. the 2 selected by Michael and the court appointed determined that she was in a persistant vegetative state.. and of course the ones selected by the parents the opposite.. sigh.. this is not a black and white case.. but IMHO the one suffering is Terry..
I agree with you 100%. Your obvious compassion and value for life shows thru in your posts. I am not disagreeing with you.. but the groups and the parents. The reason that he sued to have the feeding tube removed is because the parents sued to have his guardianship removed in 1993. Five doctors have examined Terry.. 2 selected by Michael.. 2 by the parents.. and one court appointed.. the 2 selected by Michael and the court appointed determined that she was in a persistant vegetative state.. and of course the ones selected by the parents the opposite.. sigh.. this is not a black and white case.. but IMHO the one suffering is Terry..
Feed your spirit by living near it -- Magic Hat Brewery bottle cap
Congress Schiavo
greydeadhead wrote: Raven..
I agree with you 100%. Your obvious compassion and value for life shows thru in your posts. I am not disagreeing with you.. but the groups and the parents. The reason that he sued to have the feeding tube removed is because the parents sued to have his guardianship removed in 1993. Five doctors have examined Terry.. 2 selected by Michael.. 2 by the parents.. and one court appointed.. the 2 selected by Michael and the court appointed determined that she was in a persistant vegetative state.. and of course the ones selected by the parents the opposite.. sigh.. this is not a black and white case.. but IMHO the one suffering is Terry..
Without a doubt. But perhaps she wont be much longer. If the doctors do right by her, she wont be. :yh_flower
I agree with you 100%. Your obvious compassion and value for life shows thru in your posts. I am not disagreeing with you.. but the groups and the parents. The reason that he sued to have the feeding tube removed is because the parents sued to have his guardianship removed in 1993. Five doctors have examined Terry.. 2 selected by Michael.. 2 by the parents.. and one court appointed.. the 2 selected by Michael and the court appointed determined that she was in a persistant vegetative state.. and of course the ones selected by the parents the opposite.. sigh.. this is not a black and white case.. but IMHO the one suffering is Terry..
Without a doubt. But perhaps she wont be much longer. If the doctors do right by her, she wont be. :yh_flower
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
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persephone
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Congress Schiavo
Scat
I'm not going to answer for Raven so nobody take it that I am... I have no idea why she thinks as she does about it. These are my thoughts only.
If you see someone who is brain dead they have no reactions and are surrounded by machines... You turn the ventilator off and they stop breathing.
Someone with brain damage (not total) can move, may have a low mental age, and can relearn basic things, maybe only to a certain level though (it's taken my cousin almost all my life to be able to live on his own in a warden controlled setting).
Someone with brain damage (servere) may still be blinking, making noise and moving.
Now with the last two, how do you tell by looking at them?
I look at the video of Terry and look at my cousin, there doesn't look to be much difference, except that I watched my cousin make improvements over 15 years and continue over the following 8 to get to where he is now. He's made great improvements not everyone does, he also didn't have the level of brain damage that put him into PVS. He has no memory of me, and he used to handcuff me to the dinning table before the accident, he remembers my mum and we only know that because he calls her name when he sees her.
You watch the videos and it looks like someone is there, IMO her family are sick showing them, thing is was there any improvement at all from the moment she (appeared) to wake up?
I'm not going to answer for Raven so nobody take it that I am... I have no idea why she thinks as she does about it. These are my thoughts only.
If you see someone who is brain dead they have no reactions and are surrounded by machines... You turn the ventilator off and they stop breathing.
Someone with brain damage (not total) can move, may have a low mental age, and can relearn basic things, maybe only to a certain level though (it's taken my cousin almost all my life to be able to live on his own in a warden controlled setting).
Someone with brain damage (servere) may still be blinking, making noise and moving.
Now with the last two, how do you tell by looking at them?
I look at the video of Terry and look at my cousin, there doesn't look to be much difference, except that I watched my cousin make improvements over 15 years and continue over the following 8 to get to where he is now. He's made great improvements not everyone does, he also didn't have the level of brain damage that put him into PVS. He has no memory of me, and he used to handcuff me to the dinning table before the accident, he remembers my mum and we only know that because he calls her name when he sees her.
You watch the videos and it looks like someone is there, IMO her family are sick showing them, thing is was there any improvement at all from the moment she (appeared) to wake up?
Bad Girls have very high standards, but they love you even if you sometimes fall short.
Congress Schiavo
greydeadhead wrote: Raven..
I agree with you 100%. Your obvious compassion and value for life shows thru in your posts. I am not disagreeing with you.. but the groups and the parents. The reason that As-H0l- husband sued to have the feeding tube removed is because the parents sued to have his guardianship removed in 1993. Five doctors have examined Terry.. 2 selected by Michael.. 2 by the parents.. and one court appointed.. the 2 selected by Michael and the court appointed determined that she was in a persistant vegetative state.. and of course the ones selected by the parents the opposite.. sigh.. this is not a black and white case.. but IMHO the one suffering is Terry..
Thank you ggreydeadhead for posting this. I don't post her so often, been pulling through a bad flu, but outrageously been following this case for a long time.
WE all have the SAME information about this woman.. I for one do not think she has been diagnosed correctly. I am not a doctor. I happen to have a very close friend, who actually lived at my home here in La Jolla Ca for two years......and has one child, a young woman, who 6 years ago had a blood clot go to to the base of her brain and she is being kept alive by her mom, my very good friend. with a feeding tube. The doctor's told her that she would be brain dead and a vegetable! Well............I'm a mom, or five. If that happened to one of children, I would spend the rest of my life keeping her or he alive. That as I know is personal decision. I however would only do that IF I thought there was the 'smallest' chance of any kind of recovery. I think most of us parents here would agree with me.
The situation here is that in CA............the person who is responsible ........and able to make decisions for someone in this situation is the............husband......
You know........Terry's husbands's who has never divorced her but has two more children by his unmarried lady friend.............and who never told athorities that she told him she never wanted to be kept alive if in the situation she is in now............until............SEVEN years after Terri was in a coma!!!!!!!!!!!!BUT........SHe could be in a 'locked in'.........brain disorder. We can't kill her!
This is the most BOGUS Bull 'Sh@!@@ case I've ever heard of! This whole story about her telling her husband in the very early years of them being married if bunch of BS......
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxollooooooooooooo
mama
I agree with you 100%. Your obvious compassion and value for life shows thru in your posts. I am not disagreeing with you.. but the groups and the parents. The reason that As-H0l- husband sued to have the feeding tube removed is because the parents sued to have his guardianship removed in 1993. Five doctors have examined Terry.. 2 selected by Michael.. 2 by the parents.. and one court appointed.. the 2 selected by Michael and the court appointed determined that she was in a persistant vegetative state.. and of course the ones selected by the parents the opposite.. sigh.. this is not a black and white case.. but IMHO the one suffering is Terry..
Thank you ggreydeadhead for posting this. I don't post her so often, been pulling through a bad flu, but outrageously been following this case for a long time.
WE all have the SAME information about this woman.. I for one do not think she has been diagnosed correctly. I am not a doctor. I happen to have a very close friend, who actually lived at my home here in La Jolla Ca for two years......and has one child, a young woman, who 6 years ago had a blood clot go to to the base of her brain and she is being kept alive by her mom, my very good friend. with a feeding tube. The doctor's told her that she would be brain dead and a vegetable! Well............I'm a mom, or five. If that happened to one of children, I would spend the rest of my life keeping her or he alive. That as I know is personal decision. I however would only do that IF I thought there was the 'smallest' chance of any kind of recovery. I think most of us parents here would agree with me.
The situation here is that in CA............the person who is responsible ........and able to make decisions for someone in this situation is the............husband......
You know........Terry's husbands's who has never divorced her but has two more children by his unmarried lady friend.............and who never told athorities that she told him she never wanted to be kept alive if in the situation she is in now............until............SEVEN years after Terri was in a coma!!!!!!!!!!!!BUT........SHe could be in a 'locked in'.........brain disorder. We can't kill her!
This is the most BOGUS Bull 'Sh@!@@ case I've ever heard of! This whole story about her telling her husband in the very early years of them being married if bunch of BS......
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxollooooooooooooo
mama
Congress Schiavo
If you thought that, don't you think it should of been put in the crimes and trail thread. Also I think congress acted right. I just hope to god the 11 th circut accept 's it. then she can get her feeding tube back in. And some interesting stuff maybe not posted today.
A nurse came on fox this morning and accused Micheal schavo of injecting her with insulting.
found needle marks underneath her breast.
judge greer got kicked out of his church
the parents preist talked about how this coming good friday. Well you can read betweent the lines. I may have heared something like this is like a good friday. if you can catch my meaning,. ok, this like crusifixtion. (SORRY TO THE GRAMMER POLICE) that's extreme.
dcf of floridia will appear in front of judge greer tomarrow asking for sealed document's to open. Unlikely that will happen.
everybody is coming out of the wood work
Terri's parent's asked the gov. and the pres. to visit. (AGAIN UNLIKeLY)
a memeber of congress (DON"T KNOW WHO)also file a brief as a friend of the court. I heared that on fox.
Well I am going to bed. I only said I stay up to 12 this night to find or hear about the rulings. wish I was on the west coast, and not the east :-5
A nurse came on fox this morning and accused Micheal schavo of injecting her with insulting.
found needle marks underneath her breast.
judge greer got kicked out of his church
the parents preist talked about how this coming good friday. Well you can read betweent the lines. I may have heared something like this is like a good friday. if you can catch my meaning,. ok, this like crusifixtion. (SORRY TO THE GRAMMER POLICE) that's extreme.
dcf of floridia will appear in front of judge greer tomarrow asking for sealed document's to open. Unlikely that will happen.
everybody is coming out of the wood work
Terri's parent's asked the gov. and the pres. to visit. (AGAIN UNLIKeLY)
a memeber of congress (DON"T KNOW WHO)also file a brief as a friend of the court. I heared that on fox.
Well I am going to bed. I only said I stay up to 12 this night to find or hear about the rulings. wish I was on the west coast, and not the east :-5
kmhowe
Congress Schiavo
I put this in anew thread because my question is regarding the legal position rather than Terry Schiaco's chance of recovery.
One last try !
Is what Congress has ruled unconstitutional, if it were why have all the judges refused to touch it.
I am very interested in the legalities of how this case has progressed, especially how it gets escalated through your system and the idea that Congress is interfering with an individuals rights.
One last try !
Is what Congress has ruled unconstitutional, if it were why have all the judges refused to touch it.
I am very interested in the legalities of how this case has progressed, especially how it gets escalated through your system and the idea that Congress is interfering with an individuals rights.
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
Congress Schiavo
Scrat wrote: Raven.
From your experience why do you think she is "there"? I just don't see a cognitive being there with any quality of life or potential for improvement.
I just can't see it.
I agree with GDH. People such as you don't get the recognition you deserve.
Because she is a human being. She's not a dog or a cat, that we can legally euthanise.
She will probably never improve or recover. That doesnt change the fact that she is alive. She breathes on her own, and her heart beats on its own.
We're treading dangerous ground here. By being willing to apply certain standards to a feeding tube, how much longer until the family of 'uncle buck' can apply the same standards to his pacemaker? We base quality of life judgements upon our own opinion of what constitutes quality. There are too many inconsistencies of this case to warrent the starving of this woman. If you thought she was suffering before, I can promise you without food and water, she certainly is now.
The argument has been brought up, about the artificiality of a feeding tube. Keeping her alive by artificial means. What about pacemakers, organ transplants, artificial limbs, skin graphs, respirators keeping children alive who have MD, etc.
The list goes on and on. My point being, is these too are ALL artificial means of survival. If we apply the current standards in question, to these others as well, then you can well guess the outcome.
Has life become so worthless in value, that people would actually rush to take it from someone?
From your experience why do you think she is "there"? I just don't see a cognitive being there with any quality of life or potential for improvement.
I just can't see it.
I agree with GDH. People such as you don't get the recognition you deserve.
Because she is a human being. She's not a dog or a cat, that we can legally euthanise.
She will probably never improve or recover. That doesnt change the fact that she is alive. She breathes on her own, and her heart beats on its own.
We're treading dangerous ground here. By being willing to apply certain standards to a feeding tube, how much longer until the family of 'uncle buck' can apply the same standards to his pacemaker? We base quality of life judgements upon our own opinion of what constitutes quality. There are too many inconsistencies of this case to warrent the starving of this woman. If you thought she was suffering before, I can promise you without food and water, she certainly is now.
The argument has been brought up, about the artificiality of a feeding tube. Keeping her alive by artificial means. What about pacemakers, organ transplants, artificial limbs, skin graphs, respirators keeping children alive who have MD, etc.
The list goes on and on. My point being, is these too are ALL artificial means of survival. If we apply the current standards in question, to these others as well, then you can well guess the outcome.
Has life become so worthless in value, that people would actually rush to take it from someone?
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Congress Schiavo
Bothwell wrote: One last try !
Is what Congress has ruled unconstitutional, if it were why have all the judges refused to touch it.
I am very interested in the legalities of how this case has progressed, especially how it gets escalated through your system and the idea that Congress is interfering with an idividuals rights.
The answer to your question is, we dont know.
If, as the latest reports have said, that she has not at any time had a lawyer appointed to HER, then the congress was correct in interfereing.
Apparently, this case has gone to the supreme court a few times. They have kept sending it back to the lower courts.
What it all boils down to, is what one individual judge will have to say about whether or not all legal rights she has,as an individual citizen, have been satisfied.
Is what Congress has ruled unconstitutional, if it were why have all the judges refused to touch it.
I am very interested in the legalities of how this case has progressed, especially how it gets escalated through your system and the idea that Congress is interfering with an idividuals rights.
The answer to your question is, we dont know.
If, as the latest reports have said, that she has not at any time had a lawyer appointed to HER, then the congress was correct in interfereing.
Apparently, this case has gone to the supreme court a few times. They have kept sending it back to the lower courts.
What it all boils down to, is what one individual judge will have to say about whether or not all legal rights she has,as an individual citizen, have been satisfied.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
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persephone
- Posts: 664
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Congress Schiavo
I take it your cousin was not hurt as badly as Terri was.Can't answer that but, after 23 years he now has a mental age of 7, and that's his max, he's also got 20 years on me physically and was a policeman before the accident.
Is what Congress has ruled unconstitutional, if it were why have all the judges refused to touch it.Our govenment got involved in that euthanasia case, a bill was put through and failed.
I don't see anything wrong with a single judge weighing up the arguments of both sides and making a decision based on that. (The way it has been for years in any contended case).
Something should have been put in place to stop what has happened here though, 15 years of appeals and being bounced back and forth is crazy... It should get to a certain level and that's where it stops... Otherwise what is the point of the court?
Is what Congress has ruled unconstitutional, if it were why have all the judges refused to touch it.Our govenment got involved in that euthanasia case, a bill was put through and failed.
I don't see anything wrong with a single judge weighing up the arguments of both sides and making a decision based on that. (The way it has been for years in any contended case).
Something should have been put in place to stop what has happened here though, 15 years of appeals and being bounced back and forth is crazy... It should get to a certain level and that's where it stops... Otherwise what is the point of the court?
Bad Girls have very high standards, but they love you even if you sometimes fall short.
Congress Schiavo
When I made duplicate thread. I was removed. It's nice to see that someone not get it her's removed.
Anyway the court denied another applicaton for relief. I can see the repulicans start to remove themselves from this. Dave Weldon was on fox this morning . Saying he never made the comment that the president had the power to have the police remove Terry Schavo from the hospice.
So what's plan. Well congress has done all they could . Legislators. Take the kgb.
This why our country is not like otheir countrys.
Now david waldon said this morning he was going to lobby the state leg. to make a law allowing terri to live. It's being held up by A few reb. there.
Likelyhood probably not since the polls are not in favor of them doing anything for this poor women. It could be the Reb. in the state of floridia want to be relected,
the president doesn't want to do anything because even though he can't relected he has to up hold the law, and he also want's to push his policy's through.
I don't know what more anyone can do. The likely hood that this case will somehow turn out has the parents. Is growing dimmer by the minute. we have to believe and they do to, that this maybe god's will. fighting against god you never win. We just got to believe their is reason for all this. If Micheal Schavo did anything to her. There is plenty for that later. :-5
Anyway the court denied another applicaton for relief. I can see the repulicans start to remove themselves from this. Dave Weldon was on fox this morning . Saying he never made the comment that the president had the power to have the police remove Terry Schavo from the hospice.
So what's plan. Well congress has done all they could . Legislators. Take the kgb.
This why our country is not like otheir countrys.
Now david waldon said this morning he was going to lobby the state leg. to make a law allowing terri to live. It's being held up by A few reb. there.
Likelyhood probably not since the polls are not in favor of them doing anything for this poor women. It could be the Reb. in the state of floridia want to be relected,
the president doesn't want to do anything because even though he can't relected he has to up hold the law, and he also want's to push his policy's through.
I don't know what more anyone can do. The likely hood that this case will somehow turn out has the parents. Is growing dimmer by the minute. we have to believe and they do to, that this maybe god's will. fighting against god you never win. We just got to believe their is reason for all this. If Micheal Schavo did anything to her. There is plenty for that later. :-5
kmhowe
Congress Schiavo
Scrat,
The doctors are divided, and her family is divided. At this point, I dont thnk they could agree on the color of shite!
Who would you have speak for this woman? Noone, is what I'm hearing loud and clear from you!
While you're crying about who will foot the bill, do you have any clue as to how many nursing homes are bilking you of your hard earned red, white and blue dollars?
I remember seeing that staggering amount being taken from my paychecks too!
But precedent is exactly what we're seeing formed here. And not a very good one at that!
The doctors are divided, and her family is divided. At this point, I dont thnk they could agree on the color of shite!
Who would you have speak for this woman? Noone, is what I'm hearing loud and clear from you!
While you're crying about who will foot the bill, do you have any clue as to how many nursing homes are bilking you of your hard earned red, white and blue dollars?
I remember seeing that staggering amount being taken from my paychecks too!
But precedent is exactly what we're seeing formed here. And not a very good one at that!
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
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greydeadhead
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Congress Schiavo
hmmmm... lots going on here sense I last visited....
Raven.. all of artificial means of prolonging life you mention are used on patients that are pretty much aware of there surroundings.. I mean transplants are on people that can decide if they want them or not... artificial limbs are used to improve the quality of life for amputees..pacemakers assist someone with a weak heart.. I could go on.. but won't. Yes she is breathing on her own.. and her heart is beating without assistance.. but her EEG is flat.. no activity .. none.. her brain is not functioning in any manner. This is a sad but true fact.
Bothwell.. in some legal arenas yes.. what Congress did was unconstitutional.. and could be construed as a federal interference in states rights. As Raven says this has gone to the Florida Supreme court a couple of times and been returned to the lower courts. I did find this site that gives a pretty comprehensive description of the legal aspects of the case..http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/s ... index.html
Scrat..
IMHO I don't think that the medicaid angle has much to do with the legal ramifications of this case... I live in a state where 25-30% of the population is on either medicare or medicaid or both.. so if anything this makes a case for trying to make any kind of health benefits affordable for the general population...
KM.. unless you can come up with something besides conspiracy theories to use for a basis for debate.. I don't know.. the Florida legislature already tried to block this and the courts ruled that the last law they passed unconstitutional. That will prolly be the case if they try again.. just the facts of the matter..
Raven..
Again.. I have to agree with you. No one has been appointed her legal counsel.. but how would the counsel know what her wishes are.. she can't form a congnitive thought or express that to them.. a catch-22 situation..
okay..
and just as a general aside to this.. check the polls on CNN's site. According to them.. the husband should make the decision.. Government and special interest groups like those headed by Randall Terry should keep out of it.. and the feeding tube removed..
Raven.. all of artificial means of prolonging life you mention are used on patients that are pretty much aware of there surroundings.. I mean transplants are on people that can decide if they want them or not... artificial limbs are used to improve the quality of life for amputees..pacemakers assist someone with a weak heart.. I could go on.. but won't. Yes she is breathing on her own.. and her heart is beating without assistance.. but her EEG is flat.. no activity .. none.. her brain is not functioning in any manner. This is a sad but true fact.
Bothwell.. in some legal arenas yes.. what Congress did was unconstitutional.. and could be construed as a federal interference in states rights. As Raven says this has gone to the Florida Supreme court a couple of times and been returned to the lower courts. I did find this site that gives a pretty comprehensive description of the legal aspects of the case..http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/s ... index.html
Scrat..
IMHO I don't think that the medicaid angle has much to do with the legal ramifications of this case... I live in a state where 25-30% of the population is on either medicare or medicaid or both.. so if anything this makes a case for trying to make any kind of health benefits affordable for the general population...
KM.. unless you can come up with something besides conspiracy theories to use for a basis for debate.. I don't know.. the Florida legislature already tried to block this and the courts ruled that the last law they passed unconstitutional. That will prolly be the case if they try again.. just the facts of the matter..
Raven..
Again.. I have to agree with you. No one has been appointed her legal counsel.. but how would the counsel know what her wishes are.. she can't form a congnitive thought or express that to them.. a catch-22 situation..
okay..
and just as a general aside to this.. check the polls on CNN's site. According to them.. the husband should make the decision.. Government and special interest groups like those headed by Randall Terry should keep out of it.. and the feeding tube removed..
Feed your spirit by living near it -- Magic Hat Brewery bottle cap
Congress Schiavo
The brain consists of many parts. The cerebral cortex bit, which controls respiration and heart functions, is apparently working just fine. Sooooooooo she's not brain dead. The areas of the eeg that you are referring to, are the ones that control voluntary movement, speech, memory, etc.
No, she wont recover from the kind of brain damage that she has. But she is NOT brain dead! Brain dead is EXACTLY that! NOTHING functions!
The 'auto-pilot' bit of her brain which includes the medulla, cortex and pituitary, are obviously functioning. How else would you explain ALL of her organs functioning. If you seperate the frontal lobe of the brain from the rest of it, you no longer have a personality. Does that mean you are no longer a person? They used to do this routinely to mental patients. It's called a frontal lobotomy.
Yes, while she has lost all forward gears, she still has neutral! (in mechanic speak) and the car still starts! So while she cant do anything but lay there, and her parents contest this, she is still a living, breathing, human being who is suffering the process of starvation even as we speak.
No, she wont recover from the kind of brain damage that she has. But she is NOT brain dead! Brain dead is EXACTLY that! NOTHING functions!
The 'auto-pilot' bit of her brain which includes the medulla, cortex and pituitary, are obviously functioning. How else would you explain ALL of her organs functioning. If you seperate the frontal lobe of the brain from the rest of it, you no longer have a personality. Does that mean you are no longer a person? They used to do this routinely to mental patients. It's called a frontal lobotomy.
Yes, while she has lost all forward gears, she still has neutral! (in mechanic speak) and the car still starts! So while she cant do anything but lay there, and her parents contest this, she is still a living, breathing, human being who is suffering the process of starvation even as we speak.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
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greydeadhead
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Congress Schiavo
Raven..
I bow to your knowledge of this. It is not my field and I thank you for explaining this to me. But the fact remains.. the person that she was is not there anylonger.. and the fact that that part of her brain is for all purposes dead means she will not recover.
And we already agree that this is an inhumane way to let her pass. So any disucssion there is moot..
I bow to your knowledge of this. It is not my field and I thank you for explaining this to me. But the fact remains.. the person that she was is not there anylonger.. and the fact that that part of her brain is for all purposes dead means she will not recover.
And we already agree that this is an inhumane way to let her pass. So any disucssion there is moot..
Feed your spirit by living near it -- Magic Hat Brewery bottle cap
Congress Schiavo
You are correct. The person she was, has been lost for a long time. We've all seen the person that is left. And I'm afraid that due to the publicity, her doctors will be too afraid to sedate her to the point of easing her passing quickly. :-1
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Congress Schiavo
I could have supported the state legislature putting through a bill that stated that a guardian spouse must not be involved in another relationship or have specific benefits from the death of the spouse, but I absolutely cannot support Congress doing what they did. Shame on Bush for signing a bill that overstepped state's rights! There was no way the Federal Courts could approve the highly unconstitutional bill or change the verdict on appeal.
The right wing, I am sure, tried to set a precident to make a foothold for the anti-abortion movement.
The right wing, I am sure, tried to set a precident to make a foothold for the anti-abortion movement.
Congress Schiavo
Beth, thats a real possibility.
We'll just have to wait and see what the real motive was.
We'll just have to wait and see what the real motive was.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Congress Schiavo
these judges will have to amnswer to god they are not god
Congress Schiavo
Thomas, this is a secular government. Religious morality cannot rule this government if they overstep constitutional laws. Schiavo has no cognitive function. Her higher brain is destroyed.
I do feel for her parents, but I think maybe it is time for them to let go. If they believe in God and miracles, let them trust God's will. If God is real and wants Terri to live, I'm sure God can regrow her atrophied brain and let her wake up and be normal.
I do feel for her parents, but I think maybe it is time for them to let go. If they believe in God and miracles, let them trust God's will. If God is real and wants Terri to live, I'm sure God can regrow her atrophied brain and let her wake up and be normal.
Congress Schiavo
RAVEN,
I agree with you 100%. I worked in a Hospital for 22 years. I now work with ALZHEIMER'S patient I have seen all sides of this issue.
I have a neighbor with a son just like Terri, the lights are on but nobody is home. His mother takes care of him daily without help. Sure its not the person she wanted him to be, but he is alive. He can't talk, walk, or feed himself she does it all. She takes him swimming, walking you name it. He has a rich life for how ever long it may be.
I agree government should stay out of it. I also see that Terri is alive and being starved to death. If the feeding tube is not to be reinserted. Then at least allow her water and what ever food she can eat till she dies. She has been refused anything.. not even water.. TO ME THAT ISN'T NECESSARY AND CRUEL You are right no physician would administer her a "COCKTAIL" as we call it at this point to let her go peacefully, with out pain, and at a much faster time frame. It is done all day everyday all over the world. Terri is suffering because of her X-husband.. he could easily say OK mom and dad take her home and care for her, she doesn't have long either way. For me Terri has shown a great resolve to live...what is it 12 to 14 years in this state with no rehab remarkable... I just want her to not suffer.
You are correct. The person she was, has been lost for a long time. We've all seen the person that is left. And I'm afraid that due to the publicity, her doctors will be too afraid to sedate her to the point of easing her passing quickly. :-1
I agree with you 100%. I worked in a Hospital for 22 years. I now work with ALZHEIMER'S patient I have seen all sides of this issue.
I have a neighbor with a son just like Terri, the lights are on but nobody is home. His mother takes care of him daily without help. Sure its not the person she wanted him to be, but he is alive. He can't talk, walk, or feed himself she does it all. She takes him swimming, walking you name it. He has a rich life for how ever long it may be.
I agree government should stay out of it. I also see that Terri is alive and being starved to death. If the feeding tube is not to be reinserted. Then at least allow her water and what ever food she can eat till she dies. She has been refused anything.. not even water.. TO ME THAT ISN'T NECESSARY AND CRUEL You are right no physician would administer her a "COCKTAIL" as we call it at this point to let her go peacefully, with out pain, and at a much faster time frame. It is done all day everyday all over the world. Terri is suffering because of her X-husband.. he could easily say OK mom and dad take her home and care for her, she doesn't have long either way. For me Terri has shown a great resolve to live...what is it 12 to 14 years in this state with no rehab remarkable... I just want her to not suffer.
You are correct. The person she was, has been lost for a long time. We've all seen the person that is left. And I'm afraid that due to the publicity, her doctors will be too afraid to sedate her to the point of easing her passing quickly. :-1
ALOHA!!
MOTTO TO LIVE BY:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
WOO HOO!!, what a ride!!!"
MOTTO TO LIVE BY:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
WOO HOO!!, what a ride!!!"
Congress Schiavo
CARLA wrote: RAVEN,
I just want her to not suffer.
:-1Same here. It would be more humane if a "cocktail" would be administered. This whole case is sad, but there are people all over the country whose lives are ending in the same way, so it is only unique because of the fight.
I just want her to not suffer.
:-1Same here. It would be more humane if a "cocktail" would be administered. This whole case is sad, but there are people all over the country whose lives are ending in the same way, so it is only unique because of the fight.
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greydeadhead
- Posts: 1045
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:52 am
Congress Schiavo
ahhh.. it is only unique because off the media hype and attention.. if this never hit the papers.. and believe me one of the parties had to go to the press.. then it would be just like all the other instances acrosss the country
Feed your spirit by living near it -- Magic Hat Brewery bottle cap
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persephone
- Posts: 664
- Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:14 pm
Congress Schiavo
Raven wrote: Yes, while she has lost all forward gears, she still has neutral! (in mechanic speak) and the car still starts! So while she cant do anything but lay there, and her parents contest this, she is still a living, breathing, human being who is suffering the process of starvation even as we speak.There is far more to being a human being than that
Bad Girls have very high standards, but they love you even if you sometimes fall short.
Congress Schiavo
Might I add we treat our pets better than we are treating TERRI.. We at least put them out of their misery.. No she has been made to suffer needlessly... STARVING TO DEATH.. If it must be let hospice do their work, make her as comfortable as possible, give her the cocktail and let her go in peace.. !! There is no dignity in her death now..SHE IS SUFFERING..!! :-1
ALOHA!!
MOTTO TO LIVE BY:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
WOO HOO!!, what a ride!!!"
MOTTO TO LIVE BY:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
WOO HOO!!, what a ride!!!"
Congress Schiavo
Beth wrote: Thomas, this is a secular government. Religious morality cannot rule this government if they overstep constitutional laws. Schiavo has no cognitive function. Her higher brain is destroyed.
I do feel for her parents, but I think maybe it is time for them to let go. If they believe in God and miracles, let them trust God's will. If God is real and wants Terri to live, I'm sure God can regrow her atrophied brain and let her wake up and be normal.
I guess this fits better in this thread. Hey! What do you know? I'm on the same side as Beth for once! Yay!
I'm still with TW on this one. Life without interaction, life without communication, life without senses, life as a vegetable......
that's not life.
The parents are being selfish. They don't want to "lose" Terri. They can't possibly be thinking of Terri herself... if she is freed from this existance, all her pain will be gone. She can run and sing again! If they loved her they would let her cross over.
No, they are just serving their own interests. They want to gaze upon her poor face a while longer. Well, I can give them a stuffed toy that will fulfill that need just as well. Meanwhile, they torture her with immobility, slow decay and suffering every day on some vain hope that she will "miraculously" become the daughter they once knew.
For all those that are screaming "the pain of starvation and thirst" believe me the morphine and painkillers that they save for jobs like these are powerful beyond belief. She won't feel a thing.
And now the government wants to step in and tell people to allow their loved ones to live in suffering...I really, truly can't believe it. Bankruptcy, devastation, ruin for whole families lies down that road. Not to mention the loss of freedom and the intrusion into personal affairs it implies.
When one group of people, a government or a creed, begins to feel that they know what is best for everyone, in ever situation, then you might as well throw out the flag, the Consitution, and the Bill of Rights and start over again, because that's not what "The Land of the Free" means.
Maybe one good thing has come of this....my family went to our lawyers the other day and we all got living wills to make sure that we are never forced to live in a state like Terri's, by well-meaning, but misguided family members. We also believe in cremation in our family.
You see, it's our family's belief that you should live your life to the fullest, enjoy all, embrace all, love all, and then when it is your time to go....go gracefully and with dignity, leaving no burdens for the children and the future.
I do feel for her parents, but I think maybe it is time for them to let go. If they believe in God and miracles, let them trust God's will. If God is real and wants Terri to live, I'm sure God can regrow her atrophied brain and let her wake up and be normal.
I guess this fits better in this thread. Hey! What do you know? I'm on the same side as Beth for once! Yay!
I'm still with TW on this one. Life without interaction, life without communication, life without senses, life as a vegetable......
that's not life.
The parents are being selfish. They don't want to "lose" Terri. They can't possibly be thinking of Terri herself... if she is freed from this existance, all her pain will be gone. She can run and sing again! If they loved her they would let her cross over.
No, they are just serving their own interests. They want to gaze upon her poor face a while longer. Well, I can give them a stuffed toy that will fulfill that need just as well. Meanwhile, they torture her with immobility, slow decay and suffering every day on some vain hope that she will "miraculously" become the daughter they once knew.
For all those that are screaming "the pain of starvation and thirst" believe me the morphine and painkillers that they save for jobs like these are powerful beyond belief. She won't feel a thing.
And now the government wants to step in and tell people to allow their loved ones to live in suffering...I really, truly can't believe it. Bankruptcy, devastation, ruin for whole families lies down that road. Not to mention the loss of freedom and the intrusion into personal affairs it implies.
When one group of people, a government or a creed, begins to feel that they know what is best for everyone, in ever situation, then you might as well throw out the flag, the Consitution, and the Bill of Rights and start over again, because that's not what "The Land of the Free" means.
Maybe one good thing has come of this....my family went to our lawyers the other day and we all got living wills to make sure that we are never forced to live in a state like Terri's, by well-meaning, but misguided family members. We also believe in cremation in our family.
You see, it's our family's belief that you should live your life to the fullest, enjoy all, embrace all, love all, and then when it is your time to go....go gracefully and with dignity, leaving no burdens for the children and the future.
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
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Congress Schiavo
Most times I've seen this done the patient is put on morphine which, we all know is a respiratory suppressant as well as an analgesia... It's the best they can do with full euthanasia being against the law.
Bad Girls have very high standards, but they love you even if you sometimes fall short.